Are Your Kids Awe-Deprived? Deborah Farmer Kris

0:04Hunter Clarke-Fields:You are listening to the Mindful Mama podcast episode number 556. Today we're talking about are your kids awe-deprived with Deborah Farmer Kris.

0:16Hunter Clarke-Fields:Welcome to the Mindful Mama podcast. Here it's about becoming a less irritable, more joyful parent. At Mindful Mama, we know that you cannot give what you do not have. And when you have calm and peace within, then you can give it to your children. I'm your host, Hunter Clark Fields. I help smart, thoughtful parents stay calm so they can have strong, connected relationships with their children. I've been practicing mindfulness for over 25 years. I'm the creator of the Mindful Parenting course and teacher training, and I'm the author of the international bestseller, Raising Good Humans, Raising Good Humans Every Day, and the Raising Good Humans Guided Journal.

0:56Hunter Clarke-Fields:Hey, welcome back to the podcast. So glad you are here. I have the great honor today to talk to Deborah Farmer-Chris, a child development expert, PBS Kids Advisor, and author of Raising Awe Seekers, How the Science of Wonder Helps Our Kids Thrive. There's so much good stuff here, and I know this conversation is going to truly lift you up. So join me at the table as I talk to Deborah Chris.

1:27Hunter Clarke-Fields:Hi, it's Hunter Clark Fields, author of Raising Good Humans. If you've ever thought, I wish I could help other parents the way I've been helped, this is for you. The Mindful Parenting Teacher Certification Program is now open for enrollment. You'll deepen your mindfulness, learn to lead powerful parenting groups, and join a supportive, heart-centered community. Are you ready to make a difference? I only take a very limited number of people into this program, so apply now. Visit mindfulparentingcourse.com slash teach. Well, Debra, thank you so much for coming on the Mindful Mama podcast. It is a pleasure to be here.

2:01Hunter Clarke-Fields:I'm so glad you're here. Okay. I think I agree with this, but this is something that you write. You write that kids today are awe-deprived. So why is that? And what impact does this have on their emotional well-being and development? it. So that is something that the lead awe researcher, Dr. Keltner, who's studied this emotion for 20 years, that's actually a direct quote from him that I agree with as well. And I think it goes back to the sources of awe. And so in my book, I detail kind of these seven primary things that kind of elicit awe. And you think about nature, and this generation generally is spending less time in nature than previous ones, art and music, and again, You know, those are often the first things cut from public schools when there are budget cuts.

2:52And then there's this idea of being in community, this collective effervescence, this ability to be part of a group engaged in something good together. And the pandemic took a real toll on that during the pandemic. I think especially our preteens and teens who so crave that sense of community. I just feel like we haven't fully rebounded in terms of being able to be in community again, even in the little things like us taking our kids to the farmer's markets or the grocery store, which we got in the habit of, you know, shopping online. And then one of my favorite, most hopeful pieces is that, you know, the goodness of other people, this just sense of kindness, that's one of the primary sources of awe.

3:35And I feel like especially our preteens and teens are so saturated with social media news stories that show the opposite, that show the worst of humans, that show, you know, a really kind of damning portrait of who we are. And I think all of these combine to lead toward just not quite as much vibrancy when it comes to those small everyday moments that just bring that spark of goosebumps and wide eyes and that sense of this world might be messy, but it's really, really beautiful. And so I think as parents, being just a little more intentional about seeking it out ourselves can help us seek it out for our kids, who I do think are more and more awe-deprived.

4:22Hunter Clarke-Fields:Yeah, I mean, I guess, I mean, I would think it would go back further than the pandemic. I mean, really, a lot of the things, I mean, we've been on trajectory, but especially with smartphones and things like that, just the idea of sort of eroding away all of the extra time, right? Like you're not going to get a feeling of awe if you're just constantly distracted. Like you have to be in kind of a quiet, present space, which is, I think, for kids, a natural state for kids if they're left to their own devices and have enough time and space and a lack of distraction to do that. Yeah, because, you know, awe does require slowing down and paying attention.

5:11many of the sources of awe are deeply sensory, right? It's the sounds, it's the sights, it's going on that walk without the, you know, the earphones in and hearing that bird call. It's, you know, being in the stands watching our kids and being fully present. And, you know, in a very attention divided world, that's just harder, right? It's harder for us as parents, it's harder for our kids because sometimes it's these, there are these sources of awe that are there and we just don't notice them, right? You know, the other day we were driving home and there was this gorgeous sunset. And so I was like, told my kids to look up because sometimes it just requires looking up.

5:51And my daughter said, quite movingly, she said, I wonder how many of like the world's leaders right now take time just to look at sunsets. And I just thought that was a really kind of beautiful framing of some of the struggles we're having in this world, right? Like if we spent a little more time looking up and noticing and feeling that sense of wonder, which we can talk about later, has so many good positive outcomes for ourselves and our kids, you know, what would that do for us? What would it do for this generation, which we keep, you know, harping on how anxious they are. And, you know, teenagers get a bad rap right now, I don't think always deservedly.

6:35And I just wonder what small tweaks we could make just to re-engage with what's most fundamental and beautiful.

6:43Hunter Clarke-Fields:I can imagine a parent listening to this and saying like, yeah, well, that sounds really nice. Like, that sounds lovely to look at sunsets and things like that. But to say kids, you know, but to say kids are all deprived, like what is that impact that it has on kids? Like, is there a measurable impact that it has on kids for kids who are, you know, they're doing travel soccer and they're eating dinner in the car and they're, you know, they're on their phone texting and they're missing those sunsets. Like, is it really a problem for them? You know, the research doesn't really look at like, hey, let's break these kids into two groups and keep some away from it.

7:24Yeah, I guess so. But what it does do is, you know, there's just this really robust research about this emotion that does show the positive outcomes. And I think that's the thing to focus on. And I often give talks to like middle and high schoolers, right, in assemblies. And kids really resonate with this topic. Like, I think at their core, they want more of this in their lives. And I think it helps for kids to actually understand why it's good for them. So just on some broad levels, we know that experiencing this feeling of awe and wonder, and again, like, you know, think about when your eyes grow wide or you take, you gasp because something is just wow.

8:01We know that it leads to better mental health and wellness, including reduction in symptoms of anxiety, markers, biomarkers of stress and inflammation. They've done this on three-year-olds before and after music classes. They've done this on 80-year-olds before and after taking awe walks where you just go out and notice something beautiful. They've done this with kids who have experienced a lot of community violence who then go into nature, and they find that it literally reduces the biomarkers of stress and inflammation. It also very much helps kids academically. There's just robust research that shows that when you experience wonder, it enhances your curiosity, right?

8:46You want to know why. And then you are authentically motivated to learn. And so, and I was a teacher for 20 years. And so I love this, that this idea that if you can tap into what makes a kid light up, it actually primes them for learning. And one of the pieces of research I loved is they found that if you can tap into that about something they care about, like, let's say your kid, you know, you do a little science experiment and they're like, wow, You can do then something 20 minutes later that's not as exciting, that they're not interested in, but they still learn it more quickly because you've primed their brain for learning.

9:24And so it gets me thinking about all those kids who aren't as engaged and how can we take their fascinations and interests and kind of use that and channel that. And I think that's a really exciting idea for parents and for educators. And there's also this great research that all helps us be more connected as a community. It helps us be more connected to other people. It helps us be more kind and generous. And the researchers kind of wonder why, because all emotions have functions, right? They all have evolutionary purposes. We feel disgust so we don't eat the rotten chicken. We feel anger because there's a sense of injustice.

10:04We feel fear to act us so we can run away from the moving train or the tiger. So the question is, like, why have we evolved to feel awe, right? And one of the thoughts is, it does help as a bit of a community binding, because awe is often found in community, right? It's when, you know, you have everybody outside looking at the eclipse, and you just feel that sense of connection to a neighbor. And they find that, like, when researchers, when they prime them with like a really awe-inspiring video or take them outside, they're more aware of the stranger who comes by and drops their pencils. Like they're more likely to help pick up those pencils.

10:43That was a study done at UC Berkeley. And so there's just this fascinating idea that experiencing these things, which don't need to be the Grand Canyon, but just like trying to build it more into our diet has all of these outcomes of things we want for ourselves and our kids anyway, which feels exciting to me because this is not like a prescriptive idea or like you need to say this or change your parenting strategy or your parenting philosophy. It's more about like tuning in just a little bit more to what's around you anyway.

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13:28Hunter Clarke-Fields:That's momcozy.com and use the code mindfulmama. Yeah, I mean, I guess the feeling of awe makes us feel connected. You know, we are part of this universe and then you feel more connected to it and then you feel more connected to the people around you. And yeah, we're, we're generally, there's a lot of disconnection right now. So I mean, enormous amounts of disconnection. So yeah, I guess that we could, could use sort of more, more of that, I imagine. Well, I mean, so as we talked about, this requires us to maybe unplug a little, slow down a little, right? Like you're, you're saying like in bringing this thing, and I love this idea.

14:17Hunter Clarke-Fields:It's so simple. But for a busy parent trying to juggle work, dinner, bedtime, all of the things, what does it actually look like to kind of slow down childhood in the everyday moments? So a couple of ideas here. One, on a more macro scale, I think we're living in a very achievement-oriented culture. And I think sometimes being willing to take a deep breath and look at our lives and say, is this working for us as a family, like this many activities? And maybe it is. But I think there's this idea of radical curiosity, which I talk about in the book, which is really paying attention to your kid and what you may not have noticed before.

15:06And part of that is looking at what's lighting them up, what's making them the best version of themselves, what's draining their batteries. And that just may involve asking some questions like they've been doing travel soccer for five years. Maybe this is the thing that really does light them up. Or am I really pushing them out the door every single Saturday, right? Am I seeing that this may not be the thing for them anymore? And I think, you know, childhood and adolescence both is such a time where kids need the ability to explore and to figure out who they are. And I think, you know, sometimes there's this desire to almost professionalize childhood, like figure out when you're 10 years old what you want to do.

15:48And I describe in the book how, you know, between ages 10 and 13, you know, my daughter literally dropped every single activity she had been involved with and picked up an entirely new set. And it was so exciting to kind of watch, but also disconcerting for me and for her in some ways, because it was like, oh, but your identity was kind of this. And now it's this. And that is part of this growing up is to try to step back and figure out and have that time to wander and to explore. So that's more of the macro. I think on the micro with the slowing down, you know, it is so hard to be a parent in this society.

16:27I never want to put anything more on the plate. But working on this book the last four years has really been transformational for me personally because I find myself looking for like one beautiful thing every day that I can share with my kids, share with a friend. I try to socialize it. I have some friends that I share this with. And now I have like six friends who like text me pictures or their awe moments, which is so fun. Like I got one today from someone who just said, I saw, you know, this picture of this little frog outside. and I thought like, you know, gave me goosebumps. I thought you might like to see it.

17:05And so it's kind of like I have this like subset of like moms now who are like, we're all looking for it. And we're looking for it as much for ourselves as for our kids. And so, you know, having these, this framework of these sources of awe, I find myself when I'm having one of those really rough days, actually consciously thinking, how can I have 15 seconds of this? Just 15 seconds. and I there was this one day in February and it my son had the flu he was out of school for two weeks I'm in Boston it was brutal it was so cold and you know it was it was a Monday it'd been one week into a sickness and I had deadlines and I was feeling crummy just in general and I was driving to get my other kid from school and I was like I'm gonna notice one beautiful thing on this right Like, I was like, come out of high water.

17:56And then, of course, I got behind the school bus, right, which stops every five minutes. And I was ticked off. Yeah, I wasn't feeling it. It was just gross outside. And so we're driving and, you know, so slowly and it stops. But I look over to my right and there's this beautiful, like, golden retriever sitting at the top of the driveway. and the minute his high schooler comes plodding down the bus steps, this golden retriever went flying down the driveway and just jumped on his kid. And this kid who had this hoodie on, in sub-zero temperatures, you could just see him kind of grinning as the dog was jumping.

18:34And suddenly, I had it. I felt it. For those 15 seconds, and it didn't cure the day. It didn't make my son better. But it just was that reminder of, oh, it's just always out there. And if I can take the deep breath and tune into it, it makes 15 seconds of that day a little bit easier. And that's what I'm saying. It's like, yeah, they're grand things. But also once this becomes almost just a bit of a way of thinking, and you know you want to look for it, it's kind of like the zeitgeist. It just starts coming. The more you look for it, the more you see it, right? It's like when you start, the people who are bird watchers, I feel like all my friends in their 40s are suddenly interested in birds.

19:21And, you know, there was a world where I didn't know birds really existed. And now I go outside and say, I think I just heard a red-winged blackbird because I'm tuning into it and I'm noticing it.

19:32Hunter Clarke-Fields:I love that. Yeah. I mean, I guess it could be, you know, from something as big as, I don't know, you know, people have talked about like, I'm giving my kids a 90s summer, right? Like, which is like a non-structured summer. And, and, or it could be as small as like, just look for it. Just look for it somewhere, even if you're having a bad day to kind of anchor you in the, the beauty of the world and remember that. Yeah. It's kind of like a meditation practice, but that doesn't require you to sit and breathe. I'm not a great meditator because I have a very active brain and I have a very hard time and then I start getting mad at myself for not shutting my brain out.

20:18And so I find that I often will go on these walks with the dog that I consciously think of as an all walk where I like don't put my podcast in to listen to. And I find that for me, that like almost ticks off the meditation box of like, oh, I'm just slowing down my brain and noticing a little bit more. And so, you know, for all of those busy moms who may feel like I should meditate, like sometimes this type of thing brings some of that rejuvenation, even if you don't feel like you can get, you know, 20 minutes of quiet time in the house.

20:52Hunter Clarke-Fields:Yeah. Mindful walking is a wonderful way to practice mindfulness. It's It's really great. And Debra, you don't have to turn off your brain when you meditate, just so you know. I know. I know. And yet, it's like, notice it, let it go. That's the bicep curl of meditation. Yeah. Just so you know, that's when you build the muscle, but you know, it's okay. Just go for your walks. You're good. I'm not saying you have to meditate, but. But you're right. It is so good for you. And I sometimes give up too easily on it. Yeah, it's like exercise. You start small. You start with your mindful walks and then you say, oh, okay, it was nice to be present during these walks.

21:33Hunter Clarke-Fields:I wonder, would I have the same aversion just sitting for three minutes in my house and breathing, right? Like, hmm, can I be curious about that and get to know my own brain a little bit more and be friends with it a little more? That's the attitude you want. Okay, so you encourage families to embrace PDF, playtime, downtime, and family time. And again, I just want to think about working parents. How can they realistically incorporate this, especially when the weekdays feel really like a sprint? Yeah. So this acronym, PDF, playtime, downtime, family time, it comes out of research from Challenge Success, which is an organization out of Stanford University that really is working a lot with these high, pressure high achieving groups of parents.

22:28And they looked at meta studies of kids who were resilient, right? Who actually able to have that psychological capacity of bouncing back. And one of the factors they found was that kids who had playtime, downtime and family time, it really contributed to their ability to be resilient. And, you know, again, this is a framework, not a checklist. This is for me just a little bit of a mental model. And what I like about it is it fits in beautifully with awe. And so, you know, I think about like with playtime and my kids who are a little older, you know, they're 11 and 13. And, you know, playtime might be like five minutes of basketball with my son outside because he loves playing basketball.

23:11you know it I kind of consider like listening to you know music and kind of singing along in the car with my 13 year old is playtime because it feels very playful right it doesn't have to be like playing you know my little pony on the floor with your kids you know downtime again I think all everyone in the family needs some downtime including us parents and in the family time I go back to that research that talks about like how family dinner, and I'll use that as a A marker, right? Of like the ritual of having everybody together. And I describe it in the book as most days, all of us in the family are in the kitchen, generally eating a meal at roughly the same time.

23:55It's not always dinner. Sometimes it's breakfast. Sometimes it's dessert. Like let's everybody get a bowl of ice cream. But these rituals are really important for kids, right? They're grounding. We know that. And so, you know, it's always, I think, dangerous to say, oh, no, it has to be family dinner. And then, of course, like the after-school schedules are such, and then you feel like, oh, no, I didn't get there. But if generally you're thinking, you know, how can I have some time? How can we be together on a predictable basis at least a few times a week? Because, again, we just know that's good for kids, that this ability to touch in and touch base.

24:33And, you know, some of the research talks about, you know, that in terms of kind of time with a parent, that the magic number is five minutes a day of undivided time. And this comes out of Boston University Center for Anxiety and Resilience. And they talk about five minutes where it's child directed, meaning it's not have you brushed your teeth, have you practiced the piano, is your homework done. And oh, my goodness, when I really think about my interactions with my kids, how much of it is me asking questions like that? It's a lot. And if for like five minutes a day, you can just sit and be with them for whatever they want to talk about.

25:13And for my son, that may be him telling me about NBA basketball or the latest Marvel movie. You know, for my daughter, it may be I go upstairs and I'm folding her clothes and, you know, we chat for a couple of minutes. now that, you know, it's a teenager, really that five minutes a day is usually the New York Times mini crossword, which we do before bed each night. She likes it. I like it. That will, you know, she might not next year, but right now that works. And I know that that's a ritual that we do together and it feels good for her. It feels good for me. And so again, I feel like all of these things, for me, it's just a framework, right?

25:51It's not a to-do list. It's just the sense of if things are feeling off in the house, if I'm feeling really frazzled, you know, are we having enough downtime? Are we having enough family time? Are we taking a deep breath? Am I replenishing my own, you know, my own bucket? Have my kids been outside? Because going outside sometimes is like a reset button. It's just like unplugging and plugging in your computer. I feel like sometimes I just drag my youngest out on a walk with me and the dog because I know that he will feel better when he comes in. Even if he grumbles going on the walk, it will be like a reset button for him to be outside and breathing and having that soft attention that comes from being in nature.