Breaking the Dopamine Cycle - Michaeleen Doucleff

24:18Like, my niece told, my 13-year-old niece told me that her phone was her mom. Wow. And I was like, well, you know, it's not quite your mom, you know, and she's like, no, it's my mom, you know, and that's why she can't let go of it because it's her mom. And so that's kind of the twisted kind of view I think that happens. But here's the thing, like, if we just take it away, it's not going to work. It's not going to work. It's not going to last. Kids are going to push back. They're going to get upset. They're going to fight you forever, you know. And it's not the strategy. And that's not what Dopamine Kids talks about.

24:57Behavioral psychology and neuroscience in the last two decades gives us really good tools to creating a relationship with it that really works and also fulfilling our children's real needs, right? I mean, at the end of the day, that's what this is about. and what Hunt Gathered Parent was about, right, is like figuring out, okay, what is this doping system actually made to motivate kids to do and then helping them do that. And that becomes like the replacement for these things, you know, at least in parts of their day.

25:27Hunter Clarke-Fields:Okay. Okay. So we'll talk about this. Like Rosie was on Lego Kids for two hours. You were having the like fight, the battle all the time. And Hunt Gathered Parent is all about like, I don't want have battles and now you're back having battles um so you don't want to just take it away although you know you could you totally could other people have recommended that sometimes like actually there's a really fascinating dear listener if you want to hear episode with victoria dunkley i think oh yeah fasting with that yeah anyway um you recommend replacement And tell us about this process and strategy.

26:11Yes. And so this comes from actually one of the psychologists that came up with this whole way of designing these devices so that they're so sticky, BJ Bogg. So he has now a whole way of countering them, but lots of other behavioral psychologists too. It's not just him. But essentially, I like to think we need to shift the way we think of and implement limits. So when I say like a limit on Lego girls or video games or whatever, you know, you think of like rules, right? But I think we should flip that around and actually see it as opportunities, opportunities for our kids to have more fun, more excitement, more life in their life.

26:54because if we just take things away, like I said, I think it can work short term. But I think in the long term, your life is going to happen and the habits are going to come back. Psychology tells us we have to have, we are creatures of habit and we have to have some habit in that space and time that we're creating a void, a vacuum. So what the method is, is to find something that's just as exciting and alluring, maybe even more exciting than Lego kid, Lego girls. Um, maybe at first it won't seem that way to the kid, but over time, as they experience the pleasure of it, it will start to feel like, Oh, this is even better.

27:32So let me give you an example. So when we decided, like, we actually, at some point we're like, okay, we're not going to have any screens after dinner because my nervous system can't handle it. It's like, nobody in the house is nervous as, you know, like we want to get ready for bed. So I didn't say, okay, Rosie, sorry, Lego girls is out. I said, okay, we're going to take a break from Lego girls. It will always be there on the computer. And I'm going to teach you something you've been dying to do, like dying to do. And I've never let you do or had a chance to teach you. What was that? It was biking to the market all by herself.

28:07So it's about a mile going into the market, buying something. And so I'm not leaving her empty handage. I'm not saying go to your room, learn how to play independently or read a book. I'm giving her something that she's already really excited about. And also that the dopamine system is there for, right? It is there to motivate her to learn and take risks and explore and grow, right? Independently. And the results were amazing. Like she's now bikes herself to piano. She bikes herself to soccer. She loves, it's one of her favorite activities. You ask her, somebody asked her a couple of days ago, she said, oh, I like to bike around, you know, and she's free, right?

28:47And so I think when we swap out limits with these opportunities for kids to discover something better, then these new activities stick and become the habit. They become the default in these times and places. And very quickly, she forgot about Lego Girls. But you have to come up with something else in there. And then they start loving you, right? Because you're like, Instead of being the bad one that's taking things away, you're the great mom who gave her this new freedom.

29:23Hunter Clarke-Fields:I'm thinking about the parent who's like, my kid doesn't want it. Maybe they've had so much screen time. They don't want to do other things. They don't know what they want to do. They're not maybe that motivated. They don't want to bike to the market. I don't know. What do you say to those parents? I think you just, again, let's look at what behavioral neuroscience tells us. I think you start small. These massive overhauls, they really don't work in the long run. What I think of is start small but permanent. So think of some tiny change you can make with your kid that is almost boring and so simple you're going to bust it out of the park, but it's permanent.

30:06So you're never going to go back to it. With kids that are really obsessed with something on the screen, it's interesting because I know instantly when a kid is because it's all they talk about, right? Like if you pay attention to what kids talk about, you know what their passions are. You know what their dopamine system is valuing. And what I learned is that actually kids like to talk and think about video games and TV shows and social media almost just as much as they like to play them and be on them. And so in the book, I call this like ride their motivational wave. Like they're super motivated to do anything that has to do with the game or, you know, the TV, the screen.

30:48And so use that to get them to start a new activity, a new hobby. In the book, I talk about weaning kids off video games where either before or after you could, you could do either. You can have the kid do something that's related to the game. So, hey, when it's time to come off the game tonight, I'm really interested in that castle you're building on Roblox. I want to see it in real life. Could you construct it out of these Amazon boxes we've got? Or if they're really into art, can you paint it for me? Or do some offline planning and show me how it's going to grow and build. And then maybe buy them a new set of paints or a new knife.

31:31Some kids are really motivated by knives. So you've got to figure out what gets their juices flowing. right? Is it art? Is it construction? Is it being outside? Is it painting? And then connect it to their passion on the screen, right? Because like I said, dopamine is valuing. And so they're kind of overvaluing this thing, right? It's so important to them. But what that means is they'll do other things that have to do with it. And then so over time, you start to build this new hobby with them, right this new like before they go online but you know um let's let's do that art just 10 minutes or five minutes you know or when they come off let's do that art let's do that construction and here's the key in order for them to really fall in love with this new activity and for it to become a hobby or a habit you have to give them some sort of emotional payoff right that's what these devices are doing, right?

32:28You have to light up that system of like, oh, wow, this is, wow, look how good I am. And the way parents can do that is have them present their creation to you. This is so key. Have them explain it to you, have an art show, you know, make a card that you give to somebody, like somehow have them show it off. And this is basically the same thing as like getting likes, right? On social media, right? It's like other people saying, this is important. and I've done something important. It makes them feel purposeful. It gives them emotional payoff. And over time, this is going to wire this new hobby in as a habit.

33:07And so I think you could start there if it were the kid that just really is so focused on it.

33:17Hunter Clarke-Fields:Stay tuned for more Mindful Mama podcasts right after this break.

33:24Study and play.

33:26Hunter Clarke-Fields:Come together on a Windows 11 PC. And for a limited time, college students get... The best of both worlds. Get the Unreal College Deal. Everything you need to study and play with select Windows 11 PCs. Eligible students get a year of Microsoft 365 Premium and a year of Xbox Game Pass Ultimate with a custom color Xbox wireless controller. Learn more at windows.com slash student offer. While supplies last, ends June 30th. Terms at aka.ms slash college PC. I love that. And I'd love any opportunity to use my master's in art education. So when you're looking at your kid's creative project and you don't know what to say, just describe it.

34:11Hunter Clarke-Fields:Oh, look, I see this is like you. There's all this yellow part here on the bottom and you used a green over here. I see this is a jagged line, you know, just describe what you're seeing and then they will tell you all about it rather than it's so beautiful or something generic just describe what you're seeing yeah it really helps yeah like figure out what you know why are they so in love with x you know it would seem like to be so in love and then try to like springboard off that right um i have a kid that i know that's super into video gaming and and i was trying to help his mom like discover new new hobbies for him and now he's like loves um what what is the wrestling one?

34:53Jiu-jitsu. You know, and it was, he needed some sort of like fight kind of element to his life. Right. And so that, that was that he's motivated for that. And so like, let's use that motivation. Let's harness that motivation for something that, you know, really makes him feel good. Flows it, flows down the dopamine cycle and gives that like satisfaction, right? Like an hour of jiu-jitsu, like you're done. Right. So.

35:17Hunter Clarke-Fields:So yeah, yeah, yeah. And do you know, would you recommend that people pair that? I mean, did you, you obviously set more limits on her screen time, right? You were like, two hours a night is not working for us, right? We're really, we're, we're walking that back. And do you have that discussion with your child about why you're walking it back? And what do you do about your own habits? That's like a million questions. Sorry. I love all those questions though. I mean, so I think, yes, the idea is that as kids discover other things in their life and start to experience the pleasure of them, you know, kids can't like and want something they haven't experienced the pleasure of, right?

35:59We know this with food. And so it's the same with activities. So yeah, as kids start to fall in love with other things, I think you can then start to make more limits, right? And it doesn't have to be dramatic. It doesn't have to be like oh no we're not gonna right but it's like a slow sort of you know okay tonight you know or even like to pick a day right okay saturdays you know you know we've got so much else we got to do we got to do the jiu-jitsu tournament you're going over to your friend's house you know like we're just gonna take a break on saturdays you know start with something like just slowly expand out where the healthful hobbies are there and slowly constrict where the screen hobbies are, right?

36:44And that is working with our brains. Our brains work in context, right? In time and place. And so you're slowly teaching the child that there's a one tiny time in place for the video game, right? And the rest of the time in place, the brain is saying, oh, that's for reading. That's for my homework. That's for playing with my friends, right? So you could pick a day. You know, some parents I've talked to, especially with younger children, you can move faster because they're going to change faster. You could pick like all the weekdays and just say like we're not, you know, and like, so yeah, absolutely.

37:16You know, just start to see how it goes and work with them and keep introducing more options, more alternatives, right? There's so many, right? Like, audiobooks are a great alternative to kids that like to watch TV, because it's similar, fulfilling similar needs. And so we listen to a ton of audiobooks, creation, construction outside. You know, it's just about expanding the child's world, you know, because the screen kind of becomes the go-to for every emotional trigger, right? And every time of day, it's like, I feel bored, I watch screens, I'm lonely, I watch screens, And so you're starting to build wire in other desires.

38:01I think that actually this is a place where we could really improve and make our lives a lot easier. Because I think the way we talk about screens and ultra-processed foods is only cranking up kids' motivation for them. We talk about them as the rewards and the treats in life. right? Like, Oh, Rosie, if you finish, you do all your math or you do great in math this week, we're going to go get an ice cream. Oh, wow. You know, like, and all that's doing is, is making her want ice cream more, even though I want to limit the ice cream. Right. And so I think we need to like gently flip this around and, and start to, to explain to kids the cost of these activities and foods and how they can hurt us, right.

38:44How they work in our brains, how, you know, So video games are designed to make you want to just spend five more minutes, just five more minutes, just five more minutes, right? And they're tricking you into staying on there. And social media may make you feel like you're going to get belonging and love. But, you know, the data show that over time it prevents that, you know, and I think explaining that for whatever age group it's appropriate, but starting to have those discussions early on, I think is going to be really powerful for kids, right? So they understand what's going on. And then at the same time, like lifting up the other activities, you know, like getting excited and being positive about biking around and being with friends, having friends over and being calm and reading a book, you know, things that really get bring a satisfaction, you know, with foods.

39:32I'm constantly like talking about how wonderful the bok choy tastes with the garlic sauce and the pupusas and the kimchi and the salmon. Like I'm the hype woman for Whole Foods, you know. And like, because they do, they taste great. And then, you know, at the same time, I'm like, okay, you know, these other foods can taste good too, but how do they leave us, you know, how do you feel 10 minutes later? Or how's your mood? You know, so language is really powerful with kids and it shapes their view of these products. And so I think if we change the way we talk, we change their meaning in our lives and we make the choices for these, for the healthy options, like a lot easier.

40:13It's no longer like feels like a punishment, right? If we're like, I know this is going to be hard and I know you're not going to like this, but it's time to go off the screen. You know, it's like you're setting yourself up for a struggle here, you know, versus like, no, this is going to be really fun and you're going to, this is something you've really wanted to do. And I can't wait to see your castle, you know?

40:35Hunter Clarke-Fields:I love that. I love that. I mean, what you're describing also involves a lot of modeling healthy behaviors. And we ourselves might be really addicted to our phones, to social media and things like that. I really like, or, you know, whatever. Yes. Poofed, poofed processor. Yes. Yeah. And you describe, you describe your own relationship kind of with your phone. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and in on page one, 194 and 193, but you said, you talk about how every time I felt a flicker frustration, curiosity, anxiety, boredom, even joy or excitement, I checked my phone every pause in life, from stopping a traffic light to standing at the microwave while heating up leftover lasagna triggered the desire to check my phone.

41:27Hunter Clarke-Fields:And I think a lot of people can relate to that. So, and I just love the way you write about it. So no wonder that When I was kneeling in the dirt at the community garden, digging up old cabbage plants on the surface, like you're doing this like wholesome, wonderful thing. You know, you're right. All I could hear was the noise in my head calling me to get up and go check my phone. Every time we finish a row of weeding and switch tasks, I triggered a cue to look at my phone. Every time my mind wandered and I thought of my job, I triggered a cue to look at my phone. Every time Rosie came over and looked so cute, carrying a giant turnip plants around, triggered another cue.

42:04Hunter Clarke-Fields:Oh, I need to take a photo for social media queue, right? So these beautiful moments, it should be calm. It should be connecting. And your brain is like phone, phone, phone, phone, phone. And I've noticed that at different times in my life too. And I'm sure, dear listener, you can relate to this experience. Talk to us about how you have to kind of shift your own habits and things like that In order to give your kid a life that isn't tied and hijacked to this noise in your head. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I really had to admit to myself something I didn't want to and something that took me a pretty long time to admit that if my phone was anywhere accessible, I was going to go check it.

42:55and to, because what I had done is I had, so the dopamine system like finds cues in your environment that then predict this reward, supposed reward, right? And I had just painted these cues all over my life, inside my body, on this, wherever I went, there was like a cue, check your phone, a cue, check your phone. And I think we do this with food too, right? Coffee shop, go get food, you know, take a break, go get food, right? And I think that's what this food noises and I call it like phone noise. So I had to admit that in order for this to stop, there had to be moments in my life where my phone was not an option.

43:33Like it just was not an option. And so I had to actually go out on the weekends or sometimes and leave my phone at home. Like just leave it at home. And then what happens is this like beautiful thing or at least turn it off, like power down and like in the trunk in a bag, you know. But for me personally, like that didn't work at first. Like I had such strong drive and motivation to get it. I really, it had to be at home for parts of the day or parts of the weekend. And then my brain started to relax. You know, it's kind of like a smoker on a plane, right? Where like on the plane, they know they can't smoke.

44:09And so over time, over enough flights, their brain starts to say, okay, I can't smoke on this plane. I'm not going to trigger that desire. Right. And so it took, it actually wasn't that long with the out and about, about a couple of weeks of just leaving my phone at home as much as possible, or I stopped wanting it so much and I stopped desiring it. And gosh, the relief of it was just unbelievable. And I tell you, that's why I say that putting limits is just going to bring you more joy and pleasure. Like it really is because then all of a sudden I could enjoy the things out there, you know, the sunrise, Rosie talking to me, you know, the birds, just friends, talking to friends.

44:56I could have conversations without checking my phone and laughing. You know, we went on a vacation and I didn't bring my phone. I was just like, I'm not bringing my phone. And we were driving somewhere and we were laughing so hard I was crying. And I was like, I have not felt that in like years, you know, because I was always just on my phone and it wasn't making me feel good. Another really, really good tip, if you want to try something, because I know people are like, I have to take my phone. They'll give you all these reasons.

45:23Hunter Clarke-Fields:Yeah. Yeah. People are worried about danger and being accessible to their kids, to their parents, all the different things. I know. I know. The danger one is really interesting because everyone around you has a phone. So like you're never going to be in danger. But you don't know anybody's phone number anymore. No, but like you can like call. I mean, anyway, I get it. I say like just try like an hour. Try like an hour when you're going to the grocery store. But the other thing you can do is, and what we do at our house, and my husband loves it too, is we just put our phone in a drawer. We actually have all the devices in one space.

46:01and it just stays in the drawer. It's on its charger. And if you want to use the phone, you go to the drawer and you sit down, the couch is there and you use it and you put it back in. And what this does is it erases all the cues in your house, right? So that if you're not near the phone, you start to think about it a lot less. It doesn't go into the bathroom with you, the kitchen, the bedroom. So you teach your brain, you wire up your brain so that if you're not near it, then you're not thinking about it so much. And if you start to think about it, you have to walk over and you have to get the phone and it slows down that cycle like you were talking about.

46:39It's really changed our lives and it makes our house so much calmer. And people actually talk to each other at dinner.

46:47Hunter Clarke-Fields:I love that. Is this the thing with micro environments? Because for us, I like you know everyone has to plug in their phone downstairs at night at least for us and you know when we when the kids get like phone stuff it's like no not in the car you're not gonna do like whatever in the car like you can text someone if you're going to their house or whatever but not in the car or definitely not at dinner uh there's different like little places where we're just like no we don't we don't do that here is this the idea of micro environments and kind of carving out some of those spaces? Yes. Like I call them sanctuaries.

47:23Like you're creating these little kind of like nature sanctuaries where, you know, they protect endangered animals or plants and you're protecting like endangered activities, right? Attention. You're protecting your, you know, conversations, right? Like at the dinner table, right? Or the car is a great one. It's a great place for, or the train, if you're commuting on the train, like it's a great place I think for parents to start. just like don't especially little kids like you don't need a screen with you in the car like ever you know like what you're teaching the kid is like when I'm in the car I get the screen right that's what you're teaching them that's how the brain gets wired up but you're also teaching them that when I'm bored I use the screen right so it kind of bleeds into like their whole rest of their lives so you can like use that for you you're in your favor right so kids are bored in the car.

48:11So bring a book, bring that knitting, right? That your kid is doing or bring a sketchbook, you know, ask them what they want in place of it. And so now what you're doing is you're teaching the kid that in the car and when we're on the go, maybe at a restaurant, we read, right? Or we knit. And when I'm bored, I read when I'm, you know, I knit. One psychologist told me she did this with her kids. They're a little older now. And she's like, they're, they're wild readers, right? Because they're just so used to, you get in the car and you read, or you, you sit at a restaurant and you read or you're bored and you read.

48:41And so this is a great place. And yeah, so this is like a sanctuary, right? Where you have a little protective zone where, you know, these devices and screens just aren't ever there, right? And then that becomes a habit. And then that becomes the default in that environment, right? And then kids naturally just reach for it and want it. And and there's no arguing and kind of constant negotiation you're kind of setting it up once oh there's so much more yeah and I think you can do it when they're older too I do I really do and I think one of the things I want to make sure I say is like there's really good data right now from therapists you probably you will probably already know this like you know but in studies that teenagers want help with their screens and they're afraid their parents are going to just take it away.

49:35So they don't often ask, but like they want guardrails. They want assistance. They feel just as crazy as we do. Right. And, and so like working with them and acknowledging to them, you know, yeah, these are really hard. These things are hard to control and they manipulate us and we have to put in some, some, some limits, right. Like you say, like build these sanctuaries.

50:00Hunter Clarke-Fields:Well, I love it. If you could leave parents with maybe just kind of one mindset shift, one way of seeing the screen obsession with maybe a little more compassion, what would you want them most to understand maybe after reading this book? And I recommend you go out and get it. Dopamine Kids, a science-based plan to rewire your child's brain and take back your family in an age of screens and ultra-processed food. It's out everywhere now. But what would you want parents to take away? You know, I think number one, none of this is our fault. This technology came in so fast. And I really don't think we've had the right guidance around it.

50:45I think that the guidance around it has been severely outdated. A lot of the advice is based on psychology 25, 30, 40 years ago in neuroscience. And so what's missing has really been like really good guidance and tools. And that's what I really want Domingo Kids to be is this like manual, this operating manual for this new age we're in. You know, we are parenting in a world that no other generation has had to parent in. Right. And so the goal, easy on yourself. You know, this is this is not you. Right. And not lack of effort. I think the second thing is like it is totally navigatable. We can we can do this, you know.

51:24And with little changes, slow little changes, you can really transform your kids and your relationship to them. And it may be seem hard. It may be seem like a lot of effort at first. But once you start to make small changes around these products, I just can't emphasize enough how much happier, more joyful life becomes. I think they really are robbing pleasure from a lot of families. And that's why I wrote this book was like, whoa, like when we get a grip on this, life becomes brighter and more colorful. It's not about deprivation.

52:02Hunter Clarke-Fields:Yes. I love that. What a great thing to end on. Michael, again, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It's so great to talk to you. And I love your writing and I love your books and I love your approach to things. So practical and compassionate. and you never are like, just suck it up. You're like, here, here's a way. I'm figuring out a way. So thank you. Thank you for the work that you do. I really appreciate it. You're so welcome. Thank you for your work and everything that you do. You're an inspiration to all of us.

52:42Hunter Clarke-Fields:Hey, I hope you enjoyed this episode. This book was so fascinating. I really recommend buying it. It's worth your time and money to learn. She explains it so beautifully. Yeah, now we're seeing how all those, you know, the lawsuits are proving that these things are addictive too. So really, really fascinating. Yeah, my own journey with this, the tech has been really, you know, I'm now taking things off my phone. And I don't know, I just, I really am trying to break that stranglehold as on me. You know, especially both girls are home now, and I want to model that for them too. Because now Sora is 16.

53:32Hunter Clarke-Fields:She has, we have given her a smartphone now at 16. Yeah, it's fascinating. So I hope it's going okay in your family and that this is a resource that's helping you navigate this. And if it is, please do share it with your friends. Share it on social media. It really helps us to grow the podcast. And let me know what you think. I'm at mindfulmommamentor on social media. It might take me a couple days to get back to you. but yeah I'm there please share it and um and I'm wishing you a great week I hope you have some really present moments with your kid um or kids and yeah uh I'm wishing you health and wealth and happiness and all the good things and some ease that you deserve it no matter what deserve some rest and some fun and pleasure and all that good stuff.

54:29Hunter Clarke-Fields:Okay, I'll be back talking to you again real soon. Namaste.

54:42Hunter Clarke-Fields:Spring just slid into your DMs. Grab that boho look for that rooftop dinner, those sandals that can keep up with you, and hang some string lights to give your patio a glow up. Spring's calling. Ross, work your magic.