From “Touched Out” to Turned On: Mindful Intimacy - Dr. Rebecca Eudy

0:00You're listening to the Mindful Mama podcast episode number 5777. Today we're talking about going from touched out to turned on. Mindful intimacy with Dr. Rebecca Udy.

0:14Welcome to the Mindful Mama podcast. Here it's about becoming a less irritable, more joyful parent. At Mindful Mama, we know that you cannot give what you do not have, and when you have calm and peace within, then you can give it to your children. I'm your host, Hunter Clarkfields. I help smart, thoughtful parents stay calm so they can have strong, connected relationships with their children. I've been practicing mindfulness for over 25 years. I'm the creator of the Mindful Parenting course and teacher training, and I'm the author of the international bestseller, Raising Good Humans, Raising Good Humans Every Day, and the Raising Good Humans Guided Journal.

0:53Hello and welcome back to the Mindful Mama podcast. So glad you're here and a special welcome. If you are new to the podcast, I'm so, so glad you are here too. I am really looking forward to this conversation. It is so fun. In just a moment, we are going to be sitting down with Dr. Rebecca Howard Udy, a certified sex therapist and author of Parents and Love, A Guide to Great Sex After Kids. And Dr. Yudi is certified in emotionally focused therapy, and she helps couples navigate sex, desire, and connection in the whirlwind of parenting, even when life and kids make it feel impossible. So we are going to talk about, you know, why desire differences are normal, how responsive desire works, and, you know, we'll share some small practical ways to cultivate closeness and even look at how attachment patterns can really play into this here.

1:56So there's so much here. I think that great sex should be something that, you know, I feel like it was something that makes life worth living in some ways and is such a wonderful, vibrant part of life. And I want that for you, dear listener, you know, depending on, regardless of where you are in your parenting journey, I think that it can be such a wonderful, beautiful piece of life. So I hope this episode does help this for you. So join me at the table as I talk to Dr. Rebecca Udy.

2:39If you're a nurse or future nurse, you know how challenging and rewarding this career can be. Hi there. I'm Nurse Mo, creator of the Straight A Nursing Podcast. I'd love for you to join me every Thursday as I teach nursing concepts and share tips to help you succeed in school and at the bedside. Each episode breaks down often complex information so it's easy to understand so you can feel more confident whether you're taking an exam or taking care of patients. So subscribe to the Straighten Nursing Podcast, and I'll see you on Thursday. Dr. Rebecca Udy, welcome to the Mindful Mama Podcast. So glad you're here.

3:20Yeah, thanks so much for having me. I'm really happy to be here. So it's funny, I have to tell you, I had your book, Parents in Love, A Guide to Great Sex After Kids, on the kitchen table. And my 15 year old daughter was like, Oh, my God, get that out of here. Like, why are you leaving this around? She was horrified. But that's okay. I'm glad it exists in the world. And one of the things you talk about it are desired differences. And we're going to talk all about, you know, going from, you know, touched out to turned on. I like that idea. So let's start with some of those desire differences that happen.

4:02You say it's not a sign that something's wrong. But, you know, I think that a lot of couples, a lot of us take it really personally when this happens. So can you tell us a little more about this? Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, a difference in desire is actually more the norm than not over the lifetime of a long-term relationship. And kids, you know, typically accentuate this. There's lots of, especially in the early years, there's lots of hormones. The mental load tends to get really heavy. That can really shut down desire. So there's all kinds of good reasons why this desire difference can widen during kids.

4:41But it's important to recognize that this really is more of sort of a feature of long-term relationships than a sign that something's wrong. Because naturally people have, you know, different libidos. And then also different things can affect it. So stress and hormones like I just mentioned. So it's really, really common. that this happens. You know, certain couples navigate it a little bit differently than others. You know, they may have more communication about it. It may cause less issues, but it doesn't mean that the couples who aren't struggling with this don't have a difference in desire.

5:20They may just have figured out ways to navigate it without a ton of conflict. Yeah, I can remember when my daughters were little, just, I mean, there was a long time where I was like, do not touch these nipples. No, they're never being touched again in my life, I felt like. And also that feeling, I think, especially like many moms feel, you know, that if you especially if you've had given birth to a child, your body has just been put through the wringer. And I think a lot of us feel kind of pressure, right? Don't we feel like, I mean, I don't know. I mean, I, you feel like, I don't know, even podcasts like this, like, oh, I should be, you know, I should be turned on.

6:04I should be wanting to have sex. And we feel this kind of pressure to, you know, to have a good relationship means to have a sexual relationship with our partners too. I don't know, how can parents navigate this, especially moms? Yeah, definitely. Well, pressure kills desire. Yeah. And it's also normal to feel a little bit of pressure, even if you have a partner who is not pressuring you at all, who doesn't want you to feel that way. Because we do have expectations about what it means to be in a monogamous relationship. And one of those expectations is that we're sexual with our partner, that that's part of an important part of a relationship.

6:44And it is important, you know, if it's important to both people. There's certainly people who are in relationships and they have different arrangements, or they may both have, you know, relatively low libidos, and then, you know, it's not a huge part of their relationship. It doesn't mean that that's a bad relationship or that it's not a healthy relationship. But really where it becomes an issue is when there is that difference in desire, and one person feels pressured, and the other person is feeling alone or lonely, you know, sort of unmet in that way. And so then what ends up happening is that one person is sort of holding all of the initiation energy.

7:23You know, they may be coming forward and saying, hey, do you think we could have sex tonight? Or I'd really like to, you know, be close to you in this way. And then the other person is feeling like they're constantly saying no all the time. And that sets up this really unequal dynamic between the partners where it is only natural that, you know, that there is pressure, even if that's not the intention at all. And so, you know, there's a lot of different ways to work with that. There's a lot of ways to kind of get out of that pressure trap, but it is really common that that happens, even unintentionally, even with the best of intentions.

7:58One of the things I like about your book is that you share a lot of stories of people you've worked with. Can you share any stories, obviously, and honestly, about people who have gone through this and how they've made their way out? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So in the book, they're not specific client stories. It's sort of like conglaborations, but I hear the same thing all the time, you know, whether it's from clients or friends or, you know, in my own life, this is, this stuff is just really relatable. And it is for a good reason, because, you know, most of us parents or even people who aren't parents who are in long-term relationships are dealing with this kind of stuff.

8:34You know, I think one of the things that happens and one of the stories in the book is about the particular kind of touch. And so there's this one story in the beginning of the book where, you know, in this case, it's the male partner who's the higher desire partner. And, you know, he's like, I just want to put my hands on you. It's been so long since we've been together in this way. And, you know, your butt looks so good. And so he kind of goes up and gives her a little slap on the butt. And for this particular, you know, person in the book, that really is like a turnoff. You know, she's got the kids grabbing at her all day.

9:06They're smacking her. They're, you know, you know, that particular kind of touch is really just shuts her right down. And so I think that this can happen a lot is that there's a misunderstanding about how we might want to be touched. And a lot of sorts of types of touch start to be associated with kids grabbing. And so that's that touched out thing that happens a lot that we hear, that I hear so much parents talking about. And, you know, the thing is, is that it's not always, you know, it's not any touch that might shut somebody down. Maybe it's particular kinds of touch. But everybody's different and everybody's different.

9:46And so being curious about what sorts of touch feel good, in what circumstances, you know, someone may feel more open to being touched or what sorts of initiation may land a little bit better. And those may be pretty hard questions because the lower desire partner themselves may really not know how to access their own desire. They may feel pretty shut down. So in the book, I do go through a few different scenarios of different ways that that can work. Okay. So then let's imagine I'm a mom of a five-year-old and a two-year-old. They grab me. They're holding on. that I've touched out all the time and my husband wants to have sex, wants to touch more, things like that.

10:39Walk me through what are some ways that I could get back into recovering pleasure with him? That's such a great question. So first of all, it has to be okay to touch and not have that lead to sex. Because a lot of times what ends up happening is when there's a big difference and desire, the touch, the non-sexual touch, you know, sort of like a kiss or a hug or a, you know, brushing your lower back as you walk by someone in the kitchen, sort of that casual but affectionate touch dries up completely. Because one of the things that happens is that that sort of touch, that kind of affectionate touch, that's happening with the kids a lot.

11:24And so the primary parent may be getting a lot of that kind of touch. They may not be longing. for that. So that's one factor that's happening there. But the other factor is that a lot of times if, you know, the lower desire partner were to initiate a kiss or a touch, the higher desire partner very understandably might be like, oh, whoa, is this like an opening? No, all right. You know, and so then through not wanting to disappoint each other, not wanting to have the assumption we made because they, you know, offer a kiss, maybe even like a longer kiss, that that's the green light to kind of go all the way and to jump right into bed.

12:08Stay tuned for more Mindful Mama podcasts right after this break.

12:16You know, in this scenario, if I was that touched out mom, I might not even, I might hold myself back from giving a longer kiss because I don't, I'm not ready to, to, or feeling like I want to go all the way. Correct. That's exactly right. And so then actually what ends up happening is that the touch gets less and less. And so what can actually even happen is that that lower desire partner, that touched out mom can actually have almost like a little bit of a cringe, like a flinch reaction when their partner approaches them. They're like, no, I don't want to have sex right now, you know? But the thing that is misunderstood is the different kinds of desire.

12:55And so the higher desire partner typically will have more spontaneous desire. And this is more common in men because they have more testosterone. So not to say that women don't have spontaneous desire. A lot of times women identify that they may have more of this sort of desire in the beginning of a relationship. But it's more common that men would have this sort of spontaneous desire, which is, you know, we think of it like as a light switch. Like it's, you either want to have sex or you don't, and it happens pretty quickly. Or like a lightning bolt, kind of, you know? But the other type of desire, which is probably much more common and much more likely that that touched-out mom is going to experience, is responsive desire.

13:35And so that actually starts with willingness. And so if the only options are to be not touching or to be having sex, and by sex I mean intercourse, we're leaving a lot out there that that mom may actually say yes to. You know, she may say yes to a longer kiss. She may say yes to a, you know, a big hug or a massage or, you know, a makeout. But she may not be wanting to say yes to sex right away. The idea of getting into that situation may feel overwhelming or she may not really be in the mood because that's responsive desire. In order to feel desire, someone who has more responsive desire needs to actually be in a situation where their body is experiencing arousal in order to then feel desire.

14:27So that starts from a place of curiosity, of willingness, of let's see what happens. And so if the expectation is, is if you start doing anything at all related to touching, sexual, sensual, that immediately you hop right into bed and you're going to have sex, there's a lot less willingness there than there might be if we can take the pressure off and think about what would it be like just to be close, just to see what happens. And that can be sort of, you know, it can be challenging to get into that place. But if you can find yourself in that place of curiosity and taking that pressure off, then, you know, desire does tend to start to emerge a little bit more.

15:10Yeah. And you have exercises in the book for couples to take the pressure off. Can you describe these in a little more detail for us? Yeah, absolutely. So one of the first things that I do with couples is, well, first of all, I assess how pleasurable the sex is. So if, you know, a lot of couples fall into the category. Wow, that's a really fascinating assessment to do in life. Let me assess how pleasurable your sex is. Wow, that's amazing. Yes, I do this individually. So I get people alone and then I pick their brains about how pleasurable it is. sorry just such an interesting thing to think about doing like okay okay yes yes yes you know sometimes I forget like I talk about this stuff all the time and so I'm like I just assess how pleasurable the sex is and it's like oh wait that's not something that people do all right good we'll go keep going yeah yeah so but that's important right it doesn't necessarily mean that everybody needs to be having simultaneous orgasms all the time or even orgasming in each sexual encounter.

16:20But if the sex is not pleasurable, if there's pain with sex, if one of the people is really just doing it kind of to check off a check mark and they're not really ever getting into it, then it would make sense that the desire is low. If that's the case, then what I would do with that couple is to work on making that sex a little bit more pleasurable. But a lot of couples work, and a lot of that has to do with communication, and we would figure sort of do that work. I would help them to do that work together. But a lot of couples fall into the scenario where the sex is pleasurable, but they just don't do it very often.

17:03And so they're like, you know, they may say, well, I mean, it's great. We never regret doing it. But we're exhausted. We're touched out. We just never can seem to kind of make it happen. So if that's the case, then these sort of touching exercises that you're talking about can be really helpful. So the first thing after assessing how pleasurable the sex is for everybody is to take the pressure off. And so a lot of times I'll tell couples, okay, I don't want you to have sex in the way that you typically do, which typically means, you know, some sort of penetrative sex intercourse. So that's like off the table.

17:40And usually it's for a period of like, I don't know, like maybe six weeks to three months. Wow. That's a while. Yeah. It's a while. Yeah. And so what ends up happening is that the higher desire partner often will be like, ooh, okay, that's a long time. I think if I don't talk about sex, if I don't bring it up, If we don't have sex during that period of time, nobody's going to do it. They start to get a little bit nervous. Yeah, they're panicking at this point. They're panicking a little bit, you know, because they're doing a really important job. They're like, we got to pay attention to this. But the low desire partner, a lot of times, there's like a ton of relief.

18:16It's like someone's just handed them a gift. Like, oh my gosh, wow, that's amazing. But here's the thing that happens, is that once we get buy-in, and, you know, once I get by and like, okay, no, this is really going to help the desire. And it does, you know, they, they, couples will often come in and they'll say, we cheated. We were so bad. We didn't listen to you. We didn't listen to you. We had sex. That's great. And you're like, oh, darn. But yeah, exactly. What are they? So there's, there's alternatives, right? To like the classic penetrated sex, right? That is maybe, you know, triggering that touched out person.

19:00What are those alternatives that they're supposed to, that they can do in this, you know, time of abstinence from that? Yeah. So what that time of abstinence looks like, and, you know, I don't know, this is what I do with couples. There's ways that couples can do this on their own. But what we do is we do sort of like a graduated series of exercises where they're at home doing these touching exercises. And it starts with sensual, not sexual touch. So it might be something like a massage. and then sort of gradually getting more touching into erogenous zones and then eventually working back up towards actually having what they might consider to be sex over a period of time.

19:51But really what happens during that time is that those touching exercises are just a vehicle for communication. So it's not uncommon that, you know, the first or second week I might send people off and I say, okay, so this is your homework. This is what you're going to do. This is a date. You're going to do this together. Like get some almond oil. You're going to do back massage or whatever it is. Right. Yeah. Okay. Exactly. Exactly. And we start where people are. So for some people, they may feel more comfortable starting really slowly. You could even start with like a hand massage. Oh, I love hand massage.

20:27I know. It feels great, right? It's amazing. And so the most important thing is that you each have equal time. So it can be, you know, if this doesn't feel very accessible to people, sometimes we start with like five minutes or 10 minutes per person. Or, you know, sometimes people say, yeah, this is great. We're happy to do this. You know, they start with like 20 or 30 minutes per person. But you decide how long it's going to be together and, you know, you set a timer and then you switch and each person gets the same amount of time, both giving and receiving touch. And, you know, the most important thing there, though, is to communicate.

21:04Because a lot of times what happens, it's so common that couples will come back in and they're like, yeah, we totally got this. This sounds great. We can definitely do this. But they'll come back in and they'll say, yeah, you know, like we did this massage. and like, I don't know, it wasn't that enjoyable because I was like really cold the whole time. Or they were like, you know, my partner was like touching me in this way that, you know, it didn't really feel good, but I didn't want to hurt their feelings. So I didn't say anything. Or like, you know, the lights were too high and I was so distracted by that, but I didn't say anything.

21:34And so a lot of this stuff around communication ends up coming up. And so that's the beauty of working through some of this stuff, because a lot of times when there is a difference and desire. And when it does create this resentment and conflict, what that's based in is miscommunication and misattunement. And so by using these touch exercises as a vehicle to work through some of those communications and understand each other more, it really helps people not only to wake up the desire, but also to get closer and to be able to communicate a little bit better. Oh, I love this. I mean, I'm trying to picture like, okay, when we get the kids to bed, finally, it's late, they're exhausted.

22:17And then, yeah, maybe five minutes of massage might be due and might work. I mean, I don't know. How do you help people when there's no privacy, when there's no time and they have no energy at all? I mean, would you still send them to try to do something like that? Or I feel like that one of the biggest problems is the complete exhaustion from parenting and the demands of that. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, that is definitely legitimate. And that's the case when people really have a hard time even sort of getting into the room together to do a short exercise. Or even if we're not doing this sort of, it's called sensate focus.

23:03Even if the couple is not working in that way together, if they're having a hard time finding time for each other, I get that. You know, I think we all get that. It's so relatable. And yet at the same time, I think it's important to look at what the bandwidth is. So are there some ways that you can find a little bit more bandwidth? Because we all have the same amount of time in our day. We have the same number of hours. And so it's not so much, we can't actually find more time. We just have to figure out how we can protect the time that is for our relationship. And it can be really, really challenging to figure out how to do that.

23:41because there's a lot of competing priorities. And a lot of times what I hear people say is like, well, yeah, I mean, I could put my kid in front of a screen, but then I also have a, you know, a value around not having them do too much screen time. And so a lot of times what ends up happening is we have to look at what those competing priorities are and what's the most important. Yeah. I mean, that's interesting because our, you know, dear listener, our conversation with Ash Brandon, thinking about screen time and thinking about people's needs, I'm, You know, they might say that, you know, if, you know, you're putting your kid in front of a screen and they're getting screen time that they enjoy, maybe that's creative, maybe they're building in Minecraft or whatever they're doing, and you're building your relationship back up and you're creating this.

24:28I mean, I think that's important to mention here. We haven't even mentioned why this is so important, right? To want to have the spark with your partner, right? Like, this is incredibly important for the kids, for you guys to be a solid foundation. And monogamy, if that's what you're doing, is hard, right? Like, that's what most parents are doing. It's really hard for humans to do. We fail at it 50 % of the time, right? Like, you know, for it to work, you need to work at it, right? Yes. Yes, absolutely. I think that's such a good point. It is really important. And, you know, it's a type of self-care.

25:08And so that can be really challenging for parents, and I think especially moms, to protect their self-care time. It can feel selfish. It can feel like it's not that important. And, you know, we all want to put our kids first. We want to give them as many opportunities as we can. and we want to do as good a job as we can. And most of us are really hard on ourselves in terms of how we're doing. You know, if we're grading ourselves in terms of our parenting grade, we're, most of us, including myself, probably not giving ourselves a very good grade. Whether or not that's accurate is completely debatable, but we have very high expectations for ourselves and that's reinforced.

25:47You know, I have school-aged kids now and I, one of the things that I've noticed so much is that, you know, when I was growing up, it felt like, you know, you could sort of pick up a sport in high school or, you know, wherever. And now, you know, kids specialize in sports so early. And, you know, it's like, oh, well, are you just playing town soccer? Are you playing club two? Are you playing both? And so then kids are really scheduled. And they're scheduled not only because we think that that's what's best for them, but also because that's what their friends are doing, and we don't want them to fall behind.

26:18And so then that does take up a lot of our time. And when we focus on our kids a lot, as all of us want to do and think that that's the best thing for them, then we end up having less and less time for our relationship and also not protecting the time that we do set aside for our relationship. We may have the best of intentions of coming together, but by the time we actually get to each other at the end of the night, we're exhausted, we're touched out, we don't have any gas left in the tank at all. And I think that, you know, that is something that is really fundamentally important to the health of the family and the health of individuals is to have good, fulfilling, loving relationships.