How Old Scars Show Up in New Families—and What to Do About It - Dr. Robyn Koslowitz

22:15And she actually came into my practice asking me, give me the right words so I can explain to my kids that my mom needs me more than them. And then she was like, wait, after a few weeks, give me the right words to explain to my mom that my kids need me more than she does. And it was so interesting because it's not about the right words. It's about objectification, right? It's about does your mom understand that you're an independent human in a reality outside of her own, right? Your kids do need you because you're the only mom they have. But your mom needs to understand, particularly in a family dynamic where there are other siblings and other people who could step into those roles, you do have another life.

22:52And we really were working on that. And then this idea of like becoming a container for our kids' emotions. If your container is so full with everybody else's emotions, you don't have room in your container for your kids' emotions. That's a problem. So those are the entangled parents. And we learn about boundaries in the book. And then we have the paralyzed parent. The paralyzed parent is someone who really doesn't have a sense of discernment. Maybe they were criticized a lot growing up. Maybe their trauma just made them feel like a really incompetent person. They're constantly rushing around trying to accomplish everything at once, but nothing purposeful is actually happening.

23:25And that's because like they hear something on social media and it sounds great. So they're trying that and then they're cleaning up the mess and then the kids screaming to them from the other room and then they're criticized about the mess in their house. And they're just running everywhere trying to make everybody happy. But there's no like purposeful action of like a hierarchy of we're going to prioritize this task. And that task means it won't happen. And that's okay because values are hierarchical. My kids are more important than the neatness of my dining room. Fair enough, right? And we learn about prioritizing values.

23:52And then we have the disengaged parent. This is somebody who really deep down so fears their damage and they feel like their edges are so sharp that they need to constantly take the edge off so that they won't harm their kids. A lot of times these people outsource parenting. Sometimes these are people who dissociate and who space out and who are just not present interactions with their kids so that they won't get stressed out and yell at them or harm them in any way. For many years, I was a disengaged parent. That was one of the things, undoing that was one of the things that led me to write the book.

24:28Then we have the perfectionist parents, and those are parents who are trying to be perfect, right? They're just trying to do everything. They memorize all the parenting scripts. They buy all the books. Because very often two perfectionist parents marry each other and they police each other. Like this happens a lot. And they're just trying so hard to be perfect that they forget to be present, which is so tragic because their kids want them, not the script, right? Not the perfect technique.

24:53Hunter Clarke-Fields:There's a beautiful book by Annie Burnside, and she coined the term in her title, Soul to Soul Parenting, like soul to soul versus role to role. and I just, oh, that resonates with me so much when I think about that, right? Like when we're trying to put on this perfect role, this perfect, you know, we're listening to all the podcasts or reading these great books and we just really, our kids want us to be real. Yeah, like don't worry about what our, I can think of myself like when I was in plays in high school, like when you're on a script, you're not present because I'm like, wait, what am I supposed to say next?

25:28Not in the scene. When you go off script, you're more authentic. You sound like a more real, you know, actor certainly, but you sound more like a human. If you're busy thinking about what's the script, what's the words I'm supposed to say now, your kid can sense that. Like you're not there. Like you said, I love that soul to soul instead of role to role. It's a beautiful way of pointing that. The final post traumatic parent is just someone in survival mode. That is not someone who's post traumatic yet. That's a person who the trauma just happened like five minutes ago, right? Just we're in a fire.

25:58You just, you know, I was talking to someone who was just waking up from survival mode and she's like, I don't know, one minute I'm living here in this marriage with these kids and doing this job and it's three years later after COVID and like, I'm divorced in another state within a completely different job, dealing with this entire financial mess that happened. And it's like, wait, what just happened? Like, what happened in the last three years? Survival mode is you're really just trying to like, stay alive and keep your kids alive because you're punch drunk, like you like something just happened.

26:31And sometimes people can be in survival mode for many years. Just happen means just happen in terms of your psychological processes, right? But you're just getting through the day. So you're not yet post-traumatic. You're like, what we would call as psychologists, you're in acute stress disorder. You're not yet past the trauma. Wow.

26:50Hunter Clarke-Fields:Okay. So we can, I imagine, dear listener, you may be hearing yourself in one or maybe even a couple of these different types and seeing that, you know, we can see how it affects our parenting and that we can't, it is really, I mean, if we think about really the essence of parenting is that parenting is a relationship and the relationship is communication and that is presence, right? That is like, I am here with you. I'm listening to you and modeling maybe for you my child what you want to see like all of these things you described are not you know there's not a lot of conscious choice in that and that that's got to be incredibly hard and frustrating where do people start to a show up a little bit more maybe while they're healing but then also um heal so So yeah, it's hard, right?

27:55Because we're trying to like, all these clocks are ticking simultaneously, like my own healing and then my kids healing and then raising my kids in a different way. Because if you think about it, we're a little bit operating against our neurology. Parenting is somewhat in our brain, a cut and paste system. Like if you had good attachment, you're just supposed to sort of like do like, what would mom do? And then you just do that. And that's great if what would mom do applies to you or if what would mom do is a beneficial thing. It's very hard. You know how parents have these major to-do lists at all times?

28:26But when you're a post-traumatic parent, you also have this major to-don't list at the same time. It's so, so difficult. So first of all, sort of recognizing that it's so hard to sort of start from scratch. Our brains don't want to do that. Our brains just want to copy-paste. That you're really doing something very, very difficult here. But then...

28:46Hunter Clarke-Fields:I need to just underline that because that is so true. Our brains want to take shortcuts, right? Like we have the paths that have been there before are myelinated, meaning they're fattier, they're easier to go down. They are the superhighways. That's what our brain wants to conserve energy. And so when you are making, it's not so simple, right? It is actually using extraordinary amounts of energy to do something that is basically sort of bushwhacking through the forest and making a new choice. Yeah, you're 100 % right. I always say, you know, you sometimes hear people talk about neuroplasticity as though it's the greatest things in sliced bread.

29:26Wow, our brains are neuroplastic. This is great. This is terrible. Right? Because neurons that fire together wire together. And if neurons fire together a lot, they weld together, which means it's harder to get them to stop firing together. Right? That's why trauma responses are so sticky, like what you're saying, that the myelination gets stronger and stronger. um so knowing that this is very very hard first of all is super super important but then also i think in part three of the book i break down what you need to know about parenting meaning i have this concept called like r2 parenting what's important to emphasize and what sort of nonsense and fluff and like just like the zeitgeist of the moment on social media so that you know like okay hey, you don't have that gut instinct for parenting, no problem.

30:15Here's what to double down on. And here's what's not that important. What are these things? Tell us. So I really break it down to two things. In parenting, you want to be, I call it R2, responsive and responsible. Social media makes us think that you either are a gentle parent, or you're like one of those like one, two, three magic type, I don't know what you want to call it, authoritarian parents. I'm like, there's no choices in between. You can't possibly be both validating, kind, empathetic, gentle, and also sometimes teach children a skill or help children navigate the demands of the world.

30:49But somehow you have to pick one or the other. When the truth is you can do both. You can do all the gentle, validating, I notice your emotions things with kids. And I think that's so important. It's so neurodevelopmentally informed and it's exactly how our brains learn, right? We certainly don't want to go back to the 80s where it was like, suck it up, you're fine, right? Which is how many of us were parented. Not because parents were necessarily poorly intentioned. They thought maybe they were doing the right thing. I'm teaching them to be tough. I'm teaching them to like be resilient. That's what they were thinking.

31:21Being able to be like, oh, you're so sad. You fell down. You have a boo-boo. And then teaching a skill, right? Maybe later on that night, like remember when mommy said that you shouldn't climb on that one. It's too high. Mommy didn't say that because she's mean and she doesn't want you to be happy. Mommy said that because it was dangerous and then you got a boo-boo, right? So next time, what are we going to do? Are we going to go on the red whatever, you know, that type of thing. There's nothing wrong with teaching children.

31:53Hunter Clarke-Fields:Stay tuned for more Mindful Mama podcast right after this break. Tomorrow morning is knocking. Stock your fridge now. How about a creamy mocha frappuccino drink or a sweet vanilla? Smooth caramel maybe. or white chocolate mocha. Whichever you choose, delicious coffee awaits. Find Starbucks Frappuccino drinks wherever you buy your groceries. I love that. I love that. Responsive and responsible. Yes, like you can be responsive and say no and hold some boundaries. You know, you can be responsive. I know you're so upset and I'm still gonna, I still need to get your arms through this car seat strap because we need to wear this for me to drive the car, right?

32:41Hunter Clarke-Fields:Like, you know, there are all these places where we can be kind and hold a boundary. But I love the way you say like responsive and responsible. That makes, that's exactly, those are like exactly the two most important things. And I feel like there's just so much like weird polarization that happens where we feel like we have to make this choice. The other super important thing for people to know, and this is research that actually was really aggregated right after I handed in the final manuscript of the book, because for people who haven't written a book, just so you know, the book takes a very long time from writing the last paragraph till it ends up on the shelves, right?

33:19So research came out about how brains are uniquely neuroplastic, particularly for mothers in the postpartum period, what we call the matrescence period. And as your children are growing, your brain is very neuroplastic because your brain really wants to keep little humans alive. So it's ready to rewire. Almost like, you know how we talk about critical periods for language learning when kids are little? That's why, like, you can teach your three-year-old French and they can, like, pick it up in a second. But if you're trying to, like, do Duolingo and you're, like, 37, it's going to take a lot longer to learn a language.

33:53parenting is a critical period for rewiring our brain, which means it's the optimal time to reprocess our trauma and change our trauma response because our brain is sort of ready to rewire. So it's not only that your damage won't damage your kids. What I always say is your inner child, which to me, your inner child is just a metaphor for you at the moment of trauma, right? The version of you that was created that existed the moment you were traumatized and that you may have many inner children. The time you were mocked in second grade and the time something really scary happened in seventh grade and the time your best friend dropped you in 10th grade, like all of those.

34:29There are little inner children inside of you that turn your trauma app on whenever they think something bad might happen to you again. Your inner child can't raise a child, but in raising your real world child, you can heal your inner child, right? If parents know that, And I actually have meditations in the book where sometimes something that I hear from a lot of post-traumatic parents, and it shocks every post-traumatic parent when it happens to them. But when I talk about it, people are like, oh, yeah, sometimes your inner child is actually jealous of your real-world children. Sometimes, right?

35:05Hunter Clarke-Fields:No, that doesn't surprise me. Yeah. Like, you have it so good. You have no idea. Like, you think this raising my voice is yelling. You have no idea, child. Exactly. Right. I don't want to tell you what yelling is, right? It's really true. And everybody's like, oh, wow, yeah. And sometimes in that moment, the inner child comes out and they're the one parenting your kids. I know when I was a kid, I was raised with a very chronically ill father who eventually died of his illness. He had a very bad heart condition and he was constantly having heart attacks. And I remember when my kids were little, my husband would sometimes come home and he would like be roughhousing with them, right?

35:40Like just, you know, rough and tumble play. And I would get super mad and I would say, it's almost bedtime. Why are we riling them up? We have to keep to the schedule. Let's go. He needs to be in the bath. She needs to finish her homework. You know, like I'd be, I'd get like really, and I would get more mad than I should, which by the way, disproportionate is a signal that it's not you. It's your trauma happening right now. And then I realized my inner child was so jealous of my kids because I never experienced a dad. I never experienced that. Rough and tumble, play, you know, you know, healthy dad, you know, that interaction.

36:13Just never had that. So I was jealous. So when I was able to look at myself and look at my inner child and say, hi, little me, you're watching this and you're very, very sad. And this is why. And as we participate in this, from the perspective of an adult who's participating in this, you're going to get to see what it feels like. So I can do that rough and tumble play too with my kids. And then a little bit of my inner child gets to experience what rough and tumble play with healthy parents is like. And it heals. So I actually have on my YouTube channel, which is also post-traumatic parenting.

36:45like meditations where you can like mourn your childhood, where you can mourn the version of yourself that perhaps died the moment you were traumatized, where you actually can, you know, tune your inner child into a experience you're giving your real world children. And it's profoundly healing. And it's also great for your real world children, because I mean, my kids didn't need to be yelled at for like, not that I was yelling that much, But like, I was like, annoyed, like, like, why are we running around and giggling and, you know, doing that when it's so close to bedtime? Like, what did I need to give them that pressure for?

37:21Can they just enjoy the moment, right? Like, a couple of minutes of like, you know, daddy chasing you down the hole, pretending to be a monster is fun, right? It's okay. It's, we'll fall asleep. It's like not, it's actually not going to derail bedtime that much. Like, I could have chilled a little, right? But my kids didn't need to feel like something normative that they were doing was annoying me. and wait, I'm having fun, but mom's annoyed. So is that a good thing or a bad thing? I didn't need to give that to them, right?

37:46Hunter Clarke-Fields:And so kind of what I'm hearing you say is that as we maybe look at and say, oh, here's this trauma that happened to me, here's how it's coming up, right? As we start to examine, here it is. And we start to care for it, right? We give it some compassion. we we give that inner child some love and some compassion it's really um it's really building that capacity for love and compassion for our children too we're giving we're getting perspective on our own heart and our own hurt and we're also having perspective you know that gives us some perspective and more compassion as we look at our child. As we practice this compassion, we just develop that muscle a little bit more.

38:42Yeah, and the compassion for ourselves, right? Because sometimes we just turn it back on ourselves. And if you say, you know, that inner critic that's saying all these horrible things about your parenting, how would you want to talk to your own child? She came to you and said, Mom, I did this really bad thing. I'm such an idiot. Would you not stop her and say, sounds like you made a mistake. And it sounds like you really, really hate that you made that mistake. But I'm not hearing idiot. I'm hearing human who made a mistake. Right? Isn't that how you would want to talk to your kid? Right? But we don't talk to ourselves that way.

39:15Hunter Clarke-Fields:So that may be one of the steps we could start to, you know, start to practice. I like that. I always think about like, how would you talk to a good dear friend? But I love the idea of like, how would you talk to your child? You mentioned already that sometimes when there's an overreaction, right, when we have an out of place reaction, these are the things that I talk to, you know, my clients about like this, when you have an out of place reaction, that's often when it's coming from an old wound. Is that all we're looking for? Or what are other ways parents can start to recognize when their reaction is coming from an old wound rather than what is needed in the moment?

39:59So yeah, disproportionate is the big one, right? Like it's just way too big a reaction for way too small a stressor, like upon mature reflection, right? That's definitely one. Another one is when you're disproportionately anxious, right? Like this is too, you're too scared. And when you're, and what I call experiential avoidance by proxy, when my child must not feel this way, right? As opposed to all emotions are welcome. My kid might fail. And if she fails, she'll be miserable. And if she's right, and it just gets bigger and bigger when, you know, maybe my kid will fail and learn something from the experience and it will be okay.

40:39And I'll be there to support her through it. It's very different.

40:43Hunter Clarke-Fields:That's what it was for me was like, these feelings that my kid is having, this is unacceptable and it feels unacceptable in my body. Just like a whole body reaction of this is unacceptable. That was like the big flashing red light of like, something is happening here that I need to work through and understand and take care of. Right. I mean, if all emotions are welcome, right, then all of my kids emotions are welcome to including the uncomfortable ones, including the, you know, including the times that they're mad at me for something that I am correct in doing. Right. Like, going back to that people pleasing, you can't people please your teenager unless you want to mortgage your house and, you know, do whatever.

41:30like I just recently had a whole conversation with a mom and her teenage daughter or her tween daughter about this child just wanted everything right she wanted the Stanley Cup and little boo-boo dolls and the all the trends like whatever she saw on TikTok she wanted and the mom was just the mom was sort of explaining I just can't afford all this stuff and I'm like okay like like I'm not judging you right somebody's judging you who's judging you because it's not me right she's trying to like as though I'm she's the lawyer defending herself to me I just can't And I'm looking at her like, wait a second, why do you feel like you have to?

42:05Right? Where is that coming from inside of you that you can't say no to your daughter? And then because then she won't have all the stuff and then her friends won't want to be friends with her. Okay, where's that coming from? Because I'm hearing an inner child. I'm not hearing an adult right now. Nobody will be friends with my daughter because she doesn't have a Stanley Cup. That sounds like an 11-year-old. Let's talk about when you were 11, right?

42:26Hunter Clarke-Fields:Yeah, yeah. So then we look at that and we start to then take some steps. Maybe we write it down, right? We write down what happened so we can remember, oh, here I was in this moment when my child asked me this or my child did this or, you know, what this happened and it caused a big reaction to me. And I think it's interesting because we have to kind of be careful about that in some ways because, like, we can have discomfort about a lot of things, right? But where is it a place where it's gone beyond your average discomfort, I guess, is that you talk about? Before we go, I want to talk about this idea.

43:10Hunter Clarke-Fields:You say that your children can co-create healing with us. And I think that's a beautiful, hopeful message. Can you share a story or example about what that might look like? Like, yeah, I think for me, one of the things that really got me on this journey was, you know, so I told you the story about how I was, you know, when I was pregnant and how I had PTSD and I didn't quite know it. When my son, my son was 10, he looked at me one day and this was after I thought I had really dealt with my PTSD and I thought I was so much better. But one of the ways I dealt with my PTSD is I used to dissociate.

43:47So my son would, my son looked at me and he goes, mom, where do you go when you go away behind your eyes? I don't like when you do that. And he started to cry. He's like, you're talking to me, but you're not there. And I remember just having this like real moment of panic because it was as if he said to me like, mom, you know, you're five feet tall and that makes no sense. You can't reach high cabinets. Go be six feet tall and then you can be my mom. Like, I remember just being like, what do you want me to do then? You want me to feel my feelings? Because if I did that, I would probably yell at you.

44:21And that would be the worst thing I could ever do. Because in my mind, that's what I thought. That if I was human and I yelled, it would be bad. But that's when I realized like, oh, my PTSD journey is not done. This dissociation that I'm doing that works so well for me in other contexts is really harming my parenting. I need to get a handle on this. I need to learn how to manage stress and remain present. which was terrifying because the thought of that was just, you know, well, I'll have to feel stressed then. I don't want to do that. I will yell. You don't want the messy me, right? You want the perfect mom that I'm trying to be.

44:59And that really forced me because I saw it was harming my son, like it was painful for him, really forced me in a way. I always say parenting is the one thing that will motivate us to reprogram our trauma. because, you know, at work, people just understood that like sometimes Robin is super focused on her research and like you can't get her attention. My husband knew that. My husband knew that like, you know, if I was like super busy with a project and my brain was all in it, don't try to talk to me now because like I'm not there, you know, like wait till I'm done and then I'm available. And an adult can make space for you to do that.

45:33You know, a boss can just be like, okay, great. This is how Robin is like, you know, just I won't interrupt her every half hour to ask like how the project is coming along. I'll just like let her work for four hours and then she'll hand me a perfectly finished product. Kids won't do that. They won't make space for you that way, as they shouldn't.

45:47Hunter Clarke-Fields:They're holding up a mirror to you, like such a clear mirror, one that you can't ignore, maybe. Yeah, if you care about your kids, which I think most post-traumatic parents do, right, then it's like, wow. And I always say they're like the map, the mirror, and the motivation, right because to him to my son was where I wanted to go so that was my map I wanted to be present and then it was you know this mirror that he's saying this thing you're doing that you think is fine is not fine right and I'll never have a better reason to change it I don't know that I would necessarily change it for anybody else right for my kid I would change it yeah oh I love that I love that.

46:28Hunter Clarke-Fields:Okay, just for the listener, as we wrap up, the book is wonderful. Post-traumatic parenting, break the cycle and become the parent you've always wanted to be. Out now, everywhere books are sold. For the listener who is thinking, this sounds like me, but I don't know where to start. Besides getting post-traumatic parenting, what is the first step you would invite them to take? The first step I would invite them to take is to really check in with their inner child, really check into like, what was your childhood like? What are the things you'd repeat? And what are the things you would never repeat?

47:06What about your early adulthood? What were the, you know, what were those big events that like, if it was a movie, the dramatic movie would start playing? And what are those like montage events where, you know, the movie would just show repeated, you know, absences, things that weren't there? And does that make sense with how you're parenting now? Like, do you now start to see the through line between what your childhood or your early adulthood was like, and what you're doing now? Like, I would just invite them to start telling that story. And by the way, if you don't remember your childhood at all, it's a pretty good indication that there's something your brain's actively trying to forget.

47:44Hunter Clarke-Fields:Yeah, I think that's so important. You know, I hear people say things like, I would die for my kid, but will you examine your own childhood for your kid? That is a much better question to ask because it is scary. It is a big ask. I'm asking it too. I'm with you, Robin. It's so important, but it's so, so important because then we can start to carry our own baggage. We can start to do that healing rather than just shunt it on down to the next generation. So, so valuable. And then there's the other side of it, by the way, which is the castle in the cloud. If you were parenting the way you wish you were parenting, what would that look like?

48:24So let's like build the castle. Let's dream of the castle in the cloud. This is like a Thoreau quote, right? Like if you have castles in the cloud, they should be there. Then the question is, how do we just build the infrastructure to get from where we are now to there? Because it's just a matter of, well, what skills would I need and how would I get there? right it breaks it down to size it makes it hopeful yeah i think i think it is hopeful i

48:47Hunter Clarke-Fields:think for people who are willing to read post-traumatic parenting who are willing to examine these things who are willing to do the work like there is a lot of healing that can happen and a lot of transformation that can happen in the you know 12 18 whatever years of being with that kid, I think that I could see for me that path of I am going to be, me and my child are on this path of a really destructive relationship. And I was able to turn it around. It wasn't, it is possible. It's doable. And anyway, that's my hopeful story. Robin, I love the work that you do. And I love this book, again, Post Traumatic Parenting.

49:38Hunter Clarke-Fields:Go get it. Thank you so much for what you're doing and what you're putting out into the world and the way you've taken your own healing and made it something that's so valuable for us as well and so many people you touch. I think it's awesome. So thank you so much for coming on. Thanks so much for having me. It's just for me, this is a real mission. If even one post-traumatic parent doesn't feel as alone as I felt when I just was panicking that my damage is going to damage my kids and there's nothing I can do about it because no one is telling me how. If even one mom or one dad looks at this book and says, oh, here's how, the whole entire book journey will have been worth it.

50:22Hunter Clarke-Fields:That's saying a lot, people. Book tour. Oy. Yeah. Thank you so much, Robin. Thank you so much.

50:33Hunter Clarke-Fields:I hope you enjoyed this episode and let me know I'm at mindful mama mentor on Facebook and Instagram and stuff and yeah and remember you know we have like Q &A episodes you can send in your questions if you have questions and I'll answer them if I if I need help I'll get help answering them. You can find that and so much stuff at mindfulmamamentor.com. Lots of freebies, lots of resources, information if you want to have me come to your school or your group, all kinds of interesting stuff there. Blog, books, lots and lots of stuff. All the stuff you could want at mindfulmamamentor.com. I'm wishing you a great day.

51:24Hunter Clarke-Fields:Hope you have a good week. It's fall here and the leads are turning. And yeah, I'll give you an update later. Um, yeah. Wishing you the best. I hope this podcast helped you. I would really, really love to know if it did. It really makes my day when you just respond to an email and let me know. That thrills me. So, um, yeah. Wishing you a great day, friend. And I'll be back to talk to you again next week. Namaste.

52:03Hunter Clarke-Fields:Hey, I want to let you know about a podcast that I love that I think you're going to love called The Longest Shortest Time. The show is hosted by Hilary Frank and she covers all aspects of parenthood and reproductive health. She's got an episode called The Staircase about sex ed at her daughter's school. There's one about birth control and the FAA and another that follows the wild journey of a single trans dad by choice. The stories are surprising, fun, edgy, poignant. They'll give you all the feels. So find The Longest Shortest Time on all podcast apps or at longestshortesttime.com.