How To Approach Screentime - Ash Brandin

26:03Hunter Clarke-Fields:Okay. I like this a lot. So from this perspective of moral neutrality, from this perspective of this is going to be in our kids' lives and this is in our lives, what are some guidelines that you have for parents about creating healthy relationship and healthy rhythm in the family for kids and screens? So, I mean, I wish that I could distill all of that, but that is essentially what my book is devoted to. But I love that we're getting to this question now because the first part of my book is really devoted to what we were just talking about, this reframing our view of these things. Because if we had led with this question, and I'd said what I'm about to say, people would have a harder time, I think, because it's hard to put some of these boundaries in place that allow maybe our kids to have more routine access to screens, not unlimited, but more predictable.

27:08It's hard to do that if we are thinking of them as this bad thing to do with their time, we have to kind of settle ourselves in that neutrality first, recognize that that doesn't mean that we're allowing it constantly or putting our kids in control of it, but that we can see them as a thing our kids want to do with their time. And from there, we can put boundaries around it. So the middle part of my book, I call the screen time ABCs. And I talk about these three aspects that are really end up being the kind of root cause of a lot of screen time struggles that we might have. And if they're not an area of struggle, it might just be an area to keep in mind when we're thinking about what we want our kids' relationship with screens to look like.

27:54And the ABCs stand for access, meaning how and when they get a screen and for how long. Behavior, our behavior in relationship to a screen and the feelings that it might evoke. And then C is for content. So what's actually on the screen and different types of content, the differences between them, and kind of figuring out what might be a better, not as good fit. And knowing those things can give you a ton of guidance because you can already think about how those things might fit in your life. And if I know that maybe I'm okay with my kid having screens while I am making dinner and finishing up work email because it's helping us both, that might also help inform me of like how long I might want that to be.

28:40Or if my need is to have some time to attend to work staff or make dinner, that might mean that my kiddo needs to be like fairly occupied and not need a lot of my intervention because I might be kind of absorbed. And that might tell me that, oh, actually, maybe they should be watching a TV show instead of playing a game that might be really stimulating because I'm just not as available then. So the last part of my book is really helping families create these structures and boundaries. And it starts with just what we were talking about, thinking about what is the need here? What is our need as a family?

29:18And that might mean that I need time to get some stuff done. It might mean that I'm in another room putting a baby sibling down for a nap. It might mean kiddo needs some time to unwind, but what are the needs? And then that kind of informs a lot of the other pieces. It informs what I might say yes to. It might inform how long. It might inform the kind of decision-making I give my kiddo. If I know screen time is definitely going to be before dinner, I'm not going to let them decide when it is. That's going to be something I get to decide. But I might let them decide what thing they watch and give them more control.

29:56Or as they grow, I might hand over more responsibility so that they can kind of figure out what works best for them. So it's really centering like what are our needs as a family and then how can we have this be a predictable part of our lives, which doesn't mean freely available, but something that we can know is going to happen at a time that works for us so that we're not arguing about when it is, we're not fighting about the conditions can be a more predictable part of our kids' lives, become part of the routine, and finding also the kinds of content that are going to make all of that possible.

30:43Hunter Clarke-Fields:Yeah, that sounds like the smart way to think about it. I definitely didn't think about it like this when my kids were little, but I think that makes so much sense. Like, a you know since it is such an absorbing thing generally um you know as a parent like when do you need time right i've heard the you know i i've had i've heard the pushback and i've thought about this myself that like there is the idea of like um we don't want to maybe i mean depending on your needs, I guess, but not necessarily always give your kid a tablet when you have some things to do around the house because you don't want to give them the message that they have special exempt status from not contributing to the house, right?

31:35Hunter Clarke-Fields:So there's that kind of idea to think about also like, well, we want to maybe balance this idea of our needs with, we also want to start to incorporate our child into doing things in the house and cooking maybe and all these different things that we do so they learn to live in the world with other people, right? So I guess there's that to balance out and think about. Absolutely. And that kind of predictable piece, it applies to our kids, but the part that we don't always say out loud as much is that it also applies to us. And so that means that if I want screens to be like not this huge deal, then I kind of have to avoid inadvertently putting them on a pedestal.

32:25And that can happen through scarcity of saying like, no, I'm going to restrict this thing. And it can also happen when it is not necessarily predictable, right? If it's randomly my adult is suddenly overwhelmed or needs to get something done and then I'm getting access to a tablet, then I as a kid don't know when to expect something. And this isn't just true for kids. This is true for humans, right? This is just kind of how our brains work. When we know when something is going to happen, then we might look forward to it. We might be excited about it. We might ask about it. And we can kind of rely on that so we don't have to become as preoccupied with it.

33:06Hunter Clarke-Fields:Well, you're talking about intermittent reward, right? Like if this is like a thing that is reward that is given intermittently, that is the most addictive form of anything that we could do, right? Like, isn't that what's how you said, Sean? Well, yeah, so having things that are not necessarily predictable, it's interesting to frame it specifically as a reward because sometimes we do use it as a reward. Sometimes we might say like, okay, well, if you do X, then you can use the iPad. And then yes, we are creating a reward pathway and we're doing what we call extrinsic motivation. And what's really, I think, ironic about that is that we are inadvertently doing two things we don't want to do because we are making it so that our child is more focused on a screen, which we probably want the opposite.

33:56And we're thinking, oh, well, I'm only going to give it once they've done their chores. Okay, what are they going to focus on the entire time they're doing their chores? They're going to focus on the reward they're going to get. They are not focused on the purpose of the chore. They're not going to focus on the contribution to the household. They're probably not going to focus on doing it particularly well. They're going to focus on getting to the reward. And so now I'm sending the message of you should be doing this thing, a chore, in order to get a reward. and that is not what I want either, right?

34:32I don't want them as focused on the screen and by rewarding them, I'm kind of putting their attention on the screen and I'm taking their attention away from the underlying purpose of whatever the activity is because it's worthy of doing.

34:49Hunter Clarke-Fields:Yeah, we want to help around the house because we all do that. We're part of a team. We live in this house. We care about each other. We care about our home and that's what we do, right? Like that's the intrinsic. motivation. And that doesn't necessarily mean like intrinsic motivation is often because we're doing something because we want to do it. And, you know, I wouldn't say that I don't necessarily think I vacuum out of intrinsic motivation, right? Like I'm not doing it for the love of it. So there might be an internalized reason, like I might have internalized the importance of something and that's okay too.

35:24And to go back to like figuring out how things serve a purpose in our lives. You know what else I do sometimes when I vacuum? I put a TV show on in the background, right? Like if I am cleaning the kitchen, I will 1000 % put on like sort of a half watching show called the midwife tends to be that for me and like put in an air pod because this isn't the most fun activity. This isn't something I necessarily do for the love of cleaning my kitchen, right? And that might be a time where actually I am going to like pair it with something that might be a little bit more enjoyable to make the whole experience a little better and make it more enjoyable for me.

36:02And that is something that I want my kids to figure out, not necessarily with technology, it might be music or doing something with someone else in the room, but that is an important skill of figuring out, like, how do I make a less desirable task more desirable? And that is different than saying like, okay, Ash, if you just clean the kitchen, then you can get this reward. Sometimes that's possible, but not always, right? And I love the point you made of just contributing to the household because it's important. My kiddo, their household chore job, which was not my choosing, they chose this, that they clean all the toilets in our house.

36:42Oh, wow. I know. I know. I'm like, I don't really know how that happened. I gave them a choice, and that was what they chose to do, and they're really good at it. They are great. great. That's great. I taught them the whole, like, we're going to wipe down all the surfaces. We're going to start here and work our way to the dirtiest one. And then they go through and they scrub them all. And they do a fantastic job. And we talked the other day, actually, about if we were to, like, kind of reward them and give them access to something like screens for cleaning the toilets. And the first thing they said was, like, oh, I would not like cleaning the toilets as much.

37:21Hunter Clarke-Fields:Yeah, that's interesting that you've proven my point, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They knew that intrinsically, like, oh, I just wouldn't be as enjoyable.

37:34Hunter Clarke-Fields:Stay tuned for more Mindful Mama podcast right after this break. Okay, so when you have a parenting question at 2am, where do you go? Reddit is the only place to get real answers from parents who have actually been there at any time. If you're new to Reddit, think of it as thousands of topic-based communities. There are so many good ones for parenting where you can ask, you know, is this regression behavior normal? And you can get answers from parents who've been there like a second ago. So I have been using Reddit to research for my newest book that I'm working on and working on some toddler stuff.

38:16Hunter Clarke-Fields:And I was reading all about toddler tantrums. And I love the subreddit science based parenting. And there's so many good answers there and so many different subtle experiences that go into their answers. So it's interesting because it was like reading the questions I have been asked me over the years and reading all these answers and people who validation works and it doesn't. It's really, really interesting and why. So parenting, I know it can feel so overwhelming, but Reddit is a place where real parents are swapping advice, venting, and getting the kinds of answers that you can't find elsewhere.

38:53Hunter Clarke-Fields:Whether you're looking for practical guidance, recommendations, or just reassurance that you're not alone. I know parenting doesn't come with a manual. You can find real advice from real parents on the Reddit app. Download the Reddit app and check out the subreddit science-based parenting. I think you'll find a lot there to like. Go ahead and download the Reddit app today. Okay, so we want it to be like rhythmic, kind of a ritual thing. So we're trying to make it no big deal. It's just like anything else. It's like going for a hike. It's like doing your homework. It's like playing whatever, like our whatever the kind of screen time that you've, the content that you've decided is appropriate, you know, nutritious enough for your kid is available at just a regular time, but something maybe that meets your needs as a parent for, you know, have some time when your kid is absorbed.

39:53Hunter Clarke-Fields:And it's just something that's a regular part of the day. Yeah. And it doesn't mean that every day is the same, right? I give some examples of this in the book that, you know, for some families that might mean you're getting a screen every day before dinnertime. For my family, it was more often that way of serving in these purposes of me needing to make dinner. Now, my kiddo's older, and like you said, that's not necessarily something I need from more of like a safety perspective. When they were younger, I did need to make sure that they were sort of safely occupied and they weren't going to suddenly be behind me in the kitchen, and it might be like a safety issue.

40:27That changes when they get older. And some days might not be the same, right? It might mean that actually our weekends are a little bit different than our weekdays or every Wednesday we have soccer and we're gone all day. And that might mean that looks a little different. And just like we have our routines for those after-school activities or dinner or the general plot of our lives, we can find ways of incorporating screens into that so that it's helping, right? It's serving as a tool, even if that tool is just fun, leisure for the sake of leisure. But then it becomes something else that we can kind of rely on and go in the back burner without having to sort of litigate or argue about when it might fall.

41:15Hunter Clarke-Fields:Okay. Let's imagine that we're doing this. We're establishing some time, whatever. Like mom mom's joined the mindful parenting teacher training so every tuesday every every tuesday at two o 'clock she's in and you know this long meeting and then you know whatever you have these regular different times where your kid has to be in time and what do you have guidelines for parents about ending it how to make it stop because it is really hard to make that stop and i also appreciate, by the way, how you have, you know, you talk about how things go wrong and how things won't always go right in your book, Power On.

41:57Hunter Clarke-Fields:But tell us, how do we make it stop? I like that particular phrasing of how do we make it stop? So this is, I think, another benefit of looking at them with neutrality, is that if I am looking at the screen as negative, bad, etc., I'm probably not going to notice some of the details that could inform me about like how to end it more easily. You know, if I am thinking of it as bad or I feel guilty about it or I have some shame about it, my instinct is probably going to be to say like, oh, they're having a hard time stopping. See, I knew it. Like I knew it was the fault of this. I knew I shouldn't have let them do that.

42:44You're in my head, Ash. You're like saying all of the thoughts that I've had. Well, if it makes you feel better, it's because hundreds of thousands of people have shared these thoughts. So I have a pretty good data set to go off of. But, you know, to flip it around, you know, if we were insert other fun activity here, right? We're at the playground. We're at the pool. We're at a friend's house. We're on vacation. We're at the amusement park. And it was suddenly hard to leave. Right? we would probably recognize the underlying reason and also, very importantly, the underlying skill that our kids are needing to work on.

43:24So probably something like stopping in the middle of something or leaving somewhere fun. Those are hard things to do. And those are also skills that we have to develop. And when it happens at the pool or a playground or a friend's house, we know that, okay, this is hard. We don't want it to be hard every time. And we know that the way to make it less hard is by sticking to the boundary and enforcing it, but also validating the difficulty of that experience. And we also know that it's probably not going to do us any good if we blame the playground and say, oh, well, we can't come back to this playground ever again, right?

44:03Because we recognize that it's not actually about the playground. And sometimes with screens, it is different because like not all screens are the same, right? And we are going to interact with those things differently. And we still want them to be able to walk away from those things, right? Like you mentioned earlier, we're in a tech-driven world. That's not going away, even if we might wish it were. So like I do want my kid one day to be in college and be able to put down the PlayStation 7 controller or whatever and say like, I have to go. I have to study for a midterm, right? So that does come back to some of those same skills.

44:37When I look at it with neutrality, I can look at it and say, okay, like, what is the difficulty here? Is it actually about the screen? Or is it about stopping something? Is it about being able to stop in the middle? And if that's the case, then how do I help them work on the skill of stopping something, walking away and coming back later? Because there's a lot of ways we can work on that. So being able to pay attention to those things can be really informative. So if you are a parent to a kid who struggles with ending, some of the things you can pay attention to are kind of the format of what they're doing.

45:15So if it's something that sort of has like a finite ending, you know, a TV show episode, Mario Kart with like levels, something with a time component, then I can say, okay, at the end of this race were at X number of minutes. And that can be helped with a timer, a time limiter within the device itself to make it feel a little more concrete for kids. If it's something that's more open-ended, and I think this is where this happens a lot, something more open-ended like Minecraft, something that's like big open world, right? One of the tricks that I love that I use all the time as an educator. There are two that are very similar.

46:01One is to ask the question, how will you know when you're done? Which is to get them to kind of visualize a stopping point. And that might be like, hey, you have five minutes. What is the last thing you're going to do today? What are you going to do to wrap up? And I would ask them that if they were in the middle of a drawing. If they were crocheting something and they couldn't finish. if they're working on a long-term project at school. So that's speaking to the skill. The other that I love and also use all the time is what I call the sticky note trick. And it's to ask them, okay, what is it you're doing right now that you wanna come back to?

46:42Like, what's the first thing you're gonna do tomorrow or whenever you come back? Okay, we're gonna write it on a sticky note and we're gonna put it somewhere really obvious. Like I will literally stick it like on the game controller. And the words might be meaningless to me. Like my kid did this once and I was like, I don't know what any of this means. But okay, stuck it on there. And then the next day my kid came back and was like, oh yeah, I was going to do that. And especially for kids who might not have that executive function developed yet, they're younger, they might be neurodivergent. Being able to stop and come back to something can be really tricky because they might literally not remember at all what they were doing.

47:21And then they feel like they're wasting time trying to remember. And so this shows them, oh, wow, okay, if I have to stop in the middle of something, one thing can help is give myself a reminder when I come back. Again, that's going to help no matter what medium we're talking about. And then we can find ways of building that skill across different mediums, across different parts of their lives, so that they're seeing that these things are interconnected and apply just on the screen and outside of the screen.

47:50Hunter Clarke-Fields:Yeah, I like that. I wish I had done these things. Um, there's so much more, dear listener, in Power On. You know, there's a lot, you know, to know about online safety, all these different things. I definitely recommend this. But to wrap up here, Ash, just thinking about like for the parent who maybe has been feeling like it's the screens are evil and that's been coming across and the way they're talking and acting about the screens. And what is there any thing you want to leave that parent with to kind of help them shift into a more neutral place and kind of support a more positive, you know, less less fraught interaction with screens as they move forward with their kid?

48:44I think the biggest thing that I've noticed for myself and also hearing feedback from many others over the years is that when we are able to step away from that more judgmental place, and I mean judgmental of like the technology or judgmental of ourselves, it puts us on the same team as our kids. And I think that that goes a long way in so many ways where it feels like, oh, it's us versus whatever this difficult thing is we're navigating instead of it's me versus my kid with screens in the middle. Because then if I'm thinking that, like, I don't like this thing, but my kid does, then I'm seeing myself in opposition to my child.

49:35And that doesn't feel very good. And if I want my kid to be able to come to me when something in the online world feels unsafe, right? Someone said something unsafe, posted something unsafe, they're curious about something. If I want them to come to me in those moments, they first have to be able to come to me when something does feel safe. And that means they have to be able to share their triumphs with me and know that I'm going to value that because I value them. So I think just putting ourselves on the same side, it doesn't mean that they're always going to like everything we do. That's okay, right?

50:14But we're working with them to empower them for the future. And I think that helps me focus on that this is a long-term goal. And that if I can do that alongside my child, that that is probably going to set us both up for a more sustainable relationship with technology, but also with each other and be kind of partners in this together as they grow. I like that.

50:41Hunter Clarke-Fields:So like we're getting into the mindset of we're practicing for the future. We're modeling, you know, we as parents, we're modeling the behavior and we're also practicing for the future and, yeah, shift that mindset. I think that's this all. This is really helpful. It's amazing. This time has flown by. We didn't get to get into the nitty-gritty of safety and modeling. We've talked about those things in other podcasts, but I think that it's been so valuable to just talk about this idea of that mindset and the neutrality. I feel like the way you've talked about it has created a shift for me, So I'm hoping it helps create a shift for the listener, too, because I think that's been really, really valuable.

51:30Hunter Clarke-Fields:So Ash Brandon, the book is Power On, Managing Screen Time to Benefit the Whole Family and Get It Anywhere Books Are Sold. Thank you so much for coming on the Mindful Mama podcast. I really appreciate you sharing your time with us. Well, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate being here with you.

51:57Hunter Clarke-Fields:Thank you so much for listening. I hope this episode has helped you take a breath around screen time and maybe not feel so panicked about it, which is something that happens to me sometimes, as you may have heard me say. If it's helped you, share this episode with friends, share it on social media. Every time you do that, it really helps the podcast. We produce this podcast on our own and it's a lot of work so if you can share it that does a big does us a big favor by just getting it to more ears so i appreciate that enormously and so will your friends i think because it's so helpful anyway wishing you a great week i will be back in your ears again next week to talk about the five do's and don'ts of mindful parenting.

52:47Hunter Clarke-Fields:So I will look forward to connecting with you then. As always, I'm wishing you a great week. Know that it's okay if it's hard to be human for you this week. It's hard to be a parent. It's hard to raise these kids, and that's okay. You're not alone. And I'll be back in your ears connecting with hopefully some helpful stuff again next week. Take care. Thanks for listening. Namaste.

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