How to Raise Capable Kids in an Anxious World - Sissy Goff and David Thomas

0:00Hunter Clarke-Fields:Hi, it's Hunter Clarke-Fields, author of Raising Good Humans. If you've ever thought, I wish I could help other parents the way I've been helped, this is for you. The Mindful Parenting Teacher Certification Program is now open for enrollment. You'll deepen your mindfulness, learn to lead powerful parenting groups, and join a supportive, heart-centered community. Are you ready to make a difference? I only take a very limited number of people into this program, so apply now. Visit mindfulparentingcourse.com slash teach. You're listening to the Mindful Mama podcast, episode number 606. Today, we're talking about how to raise capable kids in an anxious world with Sissy Goff and David Thomas.

0:42Hunter Clarke-Fields:Welcome to the Mindful Mama podcast. Here, it's about becoming a less irritable, more joyful parent. At Mindful Mama, we know that you cannot give what you do not have. And when you have calm and peace within, then you can give it to your children. I'm your host, Hunter Clark-Fields. I help smart, thoughtful parents stay calm so they can have strong, connected relationships with their children. I've been practicing mindfulness for over 25 years. I'm the creator of the Mindful Parenting course and teacher training, and I'm the author of the international bestseller, Raising Good Humans, Raising Good Humans Every Day, and the Raising Good Humans Guided Journal.

1:21Hunter Clarke-Fields:Hello, hello, and welcome. So glad you are here. This is a great episode to be listening to because I am talking to therapists Sissy Goff and David Thomas who've spent more than 30 years sitting with kids, listening to their stories, helping them discover their strength, their courage, their capability, and all that alongside their assistants, the Daystar Dogs. They are the executive directors of Daystar Counseling Ministries in Nashville, Tennessee, and we are going to be talking about safetyism and capability and we're going to talk about why capability is probably more important than constantly pursuing happiness where it will be offering compassionate research informed guidance for raising kids who trust themselves and who can handle life's inevitable challenges that is what we want right we're going to talk about really you're going to get some really actionable things like mantras and exercises you can do.

2:23Hunter Clarke-Fields:This is a super powerful episode. I'm so glad you're here. Join me at the table as I talk to Sissy and David.

2:35Hunter Clarke-Fields:David and Sissy, I'm so glad you're here. You have written a book called Capable, which really just like stirs something in me because I love this topic. And why are you writing this book right now? We have seen, we have been counseling kids and families for over 30 years, both of us. And we have in the last, really in the last decade, we all know, we have seen this rise in anxiety, depression, suicidality, this concern about mental health in kids. And one of the things that we have noticed in the last two to three years sitting with kids is this move toward being risk avoidant, effort avoidant, that in light of discomfort, that they pull back, that they don't want to do the scary thing.

3:26They don't want to do the hard thing. And so we're seeing more kids than ever before who won't eat more than three foods, who do not want to try out for a sport that they can't do perfectly the first time they try it, that when kind of challenged to reach out to a new friend because they feel so lonely, they'll say, that's awkward. Why would I ever do that? We're seeing more kids than ever before who don't want to get their driver's license when they turn 16, 17, saying, I'm not ready. Whereas when we were growing up, we were chomping at the bit to do so many of those things. And so in this, it feels like this culture averse to discomfort and risk that we feel like, you know, as therapists, we've been trying to help so much on the back end and step in when kids are anxious, when they're struggling with these things.

4:13And I think it finally dawned on us, we're ready to do something on the front end and really look toward resilience where kids feel ready for all of the challenges that we know we face every single day in our lives.

4:27Hunter Clarke-Fields:Yeah, I mean, that's fascinating. And I think I've seen some of that, you know, in the kids. My daughters are, you know, 16 and 19. But I've definitely seen some of that. I've seen people about their license and been like, huh? You don't have your license? you're 20 what and you have your license like how is this possible um it's interesting when i think about it like i i wonder why this is happening i mean is it like a lack of you know like i don't know playing you know falling down and skinning your knee and and running around in the neighborhood and getting hurt and just getting the rewards of that i i where do you see this coming from You know, one of the places we see it coming from with consistency, my dear friend and colleague here has written some incredible books on anxiety, and she was talking about the rising numbers.

5:21And obviously, we're such fans of Jonathan Haidt's work and The Anxious Generation. As those numbers rise and we see the evidence of where worry and anxiety are getting in the way, Sissy developed this incredible definition that anxiety is an overestimation of the situation and an underestimation of myself. And that feels as prevalent with kids and adolescents right now in the world as we've ever seen. And this idea that everything out there in the world feels overwhelming. All the examples she just shared, and I don't feel capable. And I was thinking even beyond the driver's license, I was rereading the heartbreaking statistics about how few young adult males are applying to college at this point in time in the world.

6:11And that's not saying college is the end all be all. But my wife and I were watching a show last night and the theme was about a 24 year old boy who won't move out into the world. And I think that's going to become the new character on television. Like everybody's kind of writing in some young man in his 20s who won't launch out into the world because this reality of what we're seeing. And if that's what it looks like in the early 20s, we have to back up, which is why this book felt so important to think about. What are the everyday steps we can take right now to help the toddlers we love move out into the world and try new things and tap into the fact that they're capable?

6:51Well, my wife is a longtime educator, and she told the two of us a story not long ago about observing a group of kids coming out of school and meeting their parents, hugging their parents, and then immediately handing their backpacks over to their parents. And one mom handed hers back to her daughter and said, honey, you can carry your backpack. And she said, no, I can't. And she said, capable. And she said, I don't want to be. And I think that's such a picture of it. It's like, I don't want to carry heavy things. I don't want to fill my own water bottle up. I don't want to fill in the blank with all these different opportunities that are the little opportunities for kids to feel resourceful and to feel brave and to feel capable in the world in the smallest of things so that when we get to these bigger milestones, they certainly feel capable for those.

7:40Hunter Clarke-Fields:this is so interesting because i think i can see this pattern kind of in all of us right even in adults thinking about how it's you know we have these beautiful innate desires to for instance like be sociable because we are incredibly social species and we get this like junk food version of it via social media and then we because that's it's just more comfortable to stay in your house and to stay in your pajamas or whatever. Like I see this in people my age. People are not leaving the house and going out and doing things and getting like a real nourishing, you know, satisfying whole person kind of sociability because it's that we've kind of been trained to have these boxes in front of us that give us this junk food superficial version of all these different needs and that's just more comfortable.

8:42Hunter Clarke-Fields:It's hard to engage in discomfort when we're training our brains to just be comfortable all the time, I guess. Yes, we certainly are. That's such a great way to put it. I read a study recently about the growing number of women who are on beta blockers before doing something new or before doing something anxiety-provoking rather than to your, I mean, not only the sociability of it, but also the risk and the reward that we get from a neurochemical standpoint when we go out and we do new things. And I think if we're doing that as adults, of course the kids we love are going to feel like they're not equipped and ready.

9:23Hunter Clarke-Fields:Yeah, there's something to that. I'm a big believer in capability. I'm like a huge proponent of Montessori education. I was part of like getting a public charter Montessori school here in Delaware. And I loved taking my kids to that Montessori school and seeing them at two years old shake hands and have eye contact with their teacher and then learn how to like, you know, and they're doing all the pouring that all the left to right pouring that they're doing Montessori. What your your book is about capability. So what do you, is this what you mean by that? And what is it that parents get wrong about the idea of capability?

10:09One way to begin to think about it is a definition that we developed in writing the book is that capable kids have practiced coping and learned competence for life's challenges. And I think in beginning with practicing coping to everything we've been discussing about mental health crisis, there are more kids and adolescents in the world than ever. And young adults who struggle with coping with, we love that phrase from the recovery movement of dealing with life on life's terms. And there are a lot of kids, adolescents, and adults in the world who are struggling to deal with life on life's terms.

10:43And then learning competence. I think we've over-focused in the last decade in particular on kids being happy and confident, which I think both are fleeting and maybe not as deep and substantive as competence and capability. And so, you know, even to Sissy's point, if I don't want to try out for a team, how in the world would I ever develop the competence that could lead to some confidence? I had a dad tell me recently, my 10-year-old son talks all the time about wanting to play in the NFL, but he won't even try out for flag football. So it's like, how in the world could I develop a confidence that could give way to feeling confident in a sport that interests me or a bigger task in life that feels scary and overwhelming?

11:29So I think it starts with really thinking about that definition and then thinking strategically about what would it look like for me to allow the discomfort with my toddler, with my elementary age child, with my middle schooler that gives way to them practicing coping so they can build this competence. So whatever the challenge might be, the skills are in place. Sissy and I laughed this morning on the way into work. We have a pretty short commute each from our homes, about seven or eight minutes. And we both ended up at the exact same train crossing with a train that had stopped. Not moving slowly had stopped.

12:05And as we got around that, there was a road closure. And so we got to practice one of the very strategies we talk about in this book, which is flexibility and problem solving. Like we had to work our way through an unexpected 20-minute commute to work that should have been seven minutes. And that's but one example of every one of us as parents knows our kids are going to face the exact same things and even greater challenges. And how do we practice now for all of what's coming? And we've named five strengths, five skills, and five strategies that we feel like kids are lacking more than ever that really are these components of resilience and capability.

12:44and I loved your story about the Montessori school. We have a hundred, what we call capability building exercises. So practical things kids can do. We have them listed out for any age, for littles, for middles, for olders, things they can do to exercise this idea of capability because I think so often parents don't know where to start and it can feel really overwhelming. us.

13:11Hunter Clarke-Fields:Stay tuned for more Mindful Mama podcasts right after this break. If you're listening to this podcast because your kid has behavior challenges, one of the things you should definitely be looking into is how are they sleeping? There's such a thing as chronic mouth breathing. And in kids, it's associated with restless sleep, daytime moodiness, behavior challenges, dry mouth, oral health concerns, and even facial development concerns. We don't realize as parents though that our kids are sleeping with their mouths open. We don't realize the big effect it can have on their lives. Just like adults don't want to be sleeping with our mouths open because it's not good for us, we don't want kids to be either.

13:53Hunter Clarke-Fields:That's why I'm so glad there's the Muzzle sleep tape. Muzzle has a patented breathe safe center opening. It's designed for kids. It has a separate design for adults. It's useful for moms, for dads, for couples. If you're noticing nighttime mouth breathing or you're dealing with open mouth snoring, muzzle is a simple way to support closing your lips and breathing through your nose while you sleep. And nasal breathing is associated with deeper, more restful sleep. And we know a child's quality of sleep can really shape the tone of the next morning. But I love this muzzle because it's so simple. We don't need another complicated thing to manage.

14:34Hunter Clarke-Fields:It's simple, physical, low tech, easy to add to the bedtime routine solution. It's something that can support a healthy sleep habit. Go to muzzlesleep.com and use the code mindfulmama for 10 % off. That's muzzlesleep.com, promo code mindfulmama. Well, let's talk about that. I mean, I want to go hear about some examples from each age, But I also know that like one of the things that's so important is that us as parents modeling capability in everyday life when we're stressed and, you know, uncertain and what to do. What are some ways before we talk about the kids and their ages? What are some ways that parents can model, you know, tolerating stress and discomfort and showing that they can do things?

15:27Oh, that's such a great question. And I love, David talks a lot about kids learn more from observation than information. And, you know, in this unprecedented time of anxiety, being so high among kids, being so high among adults, we talk a lot with kids. Some of the first few things we do are we teach them some mindfulness techniques. We teach them breathing. We teach them grounding. And then we talk about the idea of naming the worry, like calling it the worry monster. And I have a girl that I have been counseling for quite some time who struggles a lot with anxiety. And she named her Worry Monster Bob.

16:03No clue why she came up with the name Bob, but I loved it. And her mom came in one week, brought her in, and we were sitting together. And I knew already that this young girl had had a really hard week. And her mom immediately sat down and said, Bob has been bugging me lately. And I have been having to work harder to do my breathing and tell him to zip it. And the relief that flooded this little girl's face of the person who is my hero in the world experiences this too. And she's using really smart tools. And so I want to use them myself. I mean, that is just one way. One of the skills we talk about is managing emotions.

16:44Obviously, that kids, one to 10 scale, we're seeing more kids blow up to 10 than ever before. And so we've got to not only be teaching them the tools, but using the tools in front of them.

16:55Hunter Clarke-Fields:Yeah, yeah. So what I want to underscore what you're saying here is to be authentic, like be yourself, experience what you're feeling, and to be real with your kids about what that is. And what you're pointing out is like, I'm not trying to model perfection. I'm trying to be honest and then model taking care of these feelings. Exactly. Okay. Awesome. Awesome. I was even thinking to the very story I shared, and I loved your question, because think for any parent listening who might have had a morning that started the way Sissy and I did, you know, that I could sit down at dinner tonight and say, on my way to work, it took twice as long.

17:37There was a train stop. There was a road closure. I felt overwhelmed. I felt afraid I was going to be late for work. Like, I'm naming the feelings I experienced and then talk about what you did. And I chose in that moment to roll down the window. The weather is gorgeous right now in Nashville. Let a little fresh air into the car. I turned on some calming music. When I could not drive because I was at a sit still with this train, I did two minutes of deep breathing. So narrating for kids the very moments we're living. We have to make up things. Set up with what's right in front of you and then talk your way through what you did that helped you navigate that moment.

18:14Authentically, just like you said. Yes.

18:16Hunter Clarke-Fields:That's beautiful. Okay, so let's talk about the different ages. Let's think about toddlers. I think that was so fascinating for me to learn as a Montessori parent, how much a toddler can do. I immediately went out and got little hooks that I could put down at low levels so I could hang up their own jacket and I got a little sturdy pitcher and a little sturdy cup so they could pour their own water and I wasn't at their beck and call to go get them water. What are things that to kind of create to lessen anxiety in the future and create capability? What can we start with with toddlers and preschoolers?

18:56Oh, those ones you just said are beautiful. I love those ideas. We talk about toddlers can empty the bottom rack of the dishwasher is a great thing for them to do. Toddlers can fill their own cup, like you said, their own water bottle. We talked to a dear friend about when we first started talking about Capable and this idea of we ask parents a lot, what are two things you're doing for your kids that they can do for themselves? And what are two things you're doing for your kids that they can almost do for themselves? And she was the one who immediately said, I've got to stop filling their water bottles.

19:30But those things that we do that they are ready for. So I think those are two. We're asked so often about sibling conflict and what to do when that's happened. toddlers can draw a picture for a sibling to say, I'm sorry. In moving outward, we have that as one of our strengths that kids can develop. So those are some places to start with littles.

19:52Hunter Clarke-Fields:I love that. And then moving into preschoolers, elementary age kids, what are things that maybe we're doing for them that we should start to encourage them to do? So can I jump in again, David? I'm sorry. But just because I'm living this out, as I mentioned when we started this, I have a seven and four-year-old nephews that I get to spend a lot of time with. And one of the new things, which we could talk about parents and kind of the innate ability that moms and dads have propensity even to help kids work into this. So their dad is really great at helping challenge them. And, you know, from when anytime you go to a restaurant with an elementary age child or toddler, you spend a lot of time in the bathroom.

20:39You take a lot of trips to the bathroom. And so for the seven year old, my brother in law, Aaron, when he says, I need to go potty, Aaron says, OK, go on. We'll be right here. And my sister and I every time walk eyes in panic. And as a therapist for all these years, I think about all the terrible things that could happen to my nephew in the bathroom. the whole time he's there. And I get nervous after 30 seconds if he's not back. But it's so good for him to feel like he can go to the bathroom. And to see his face when he comes back, having done it by himself, there's so much more competence and confidence, to use David's words from before, registering on his face.

21:16And there's so much pride. And so that is a very practical one. When we feel like they're old enough to be trustworthy in the bathroom or almost old enough, maybe. What would you add? Well, I'd add to the list, and I think this is great for the ages you ask about, but I think honestly could fit with any age child, is Sissy mentioned we use dogs as a part of our practice, and we're huge advocates of families having pets and all the opportunities for capability that exist in pet care. And so knowing that kids are more than capable of going into the backyard and throwing the tennis ball with a dog who needs to get some energy out or taking the dog on a walk or feeding and hydrating the dog.

21:55And I would even add to the list when we got a puppy when my kids were in first and third grade, we went to puppy school to do some training and I took them each with me. We'd rather rotate who went with me so that they then could come home and be a part of pet training. and the consistency our dog experienced because the kids were in class, not just the grownups in class coming back and doing the work, but kids. And, you know, to date, I think my kids still felt so much ownership with that particular dog because they had been so involved in the training process. So it's, again, that building of confidence.

22:29The other thing we'd add, the extra layer, this is kind of our pitch for families having pets here, right? Here's two. When we talk about practice coping, We talk a lot with kids about the incredible science behind the benefits for any one of us of just petting a dog. There is all these great what we call feel good chemicals get released. Our serotonin goes up. Our cortisol, the stress hormone goes down. And so it's a great win as we think about both coping and competence when kids are involved in pet care.

23:01Hunter Clarke-Fields:yeah and if you have a dog you're much much less likely to have allergies etc etc because your body is exposed your dog exposes you to a lot of a lot of things a lot of things here that are that are good yeah I think that we we tend to do you see like um I mean I kind of see there's a bit of an obsession with like safetyism that I think is preventing parents from letting kids do things like that. I remember being very frustrated like at like the the playground at the YMCA. I remember going there with my daughter who could climb before she could walk. You know she was very very very intense climber and seeing the the kids in the preschool there and the and seeing a kid who could obviously climb this twisty playground structure and the teacher coming over and saying, oh, you're not this age yet.

24:03Hunter Clarke-Fields:So you're not allowed to climb on this structure and thinking, well, this kid is capable of this thing and we're holding him back because of our ideas of safety. I mean, in my mind, it kind of makes kids less safe. I mean, I don't know. Do you see that in where you are? Yes, we certainly see it. I have a friend who has her own platform on social media, and she was trying to do the things that we're talking about. And she said, I let my kids walk home the last few blocks from school who are in elementary school. And she said, and I was following them in my car. And she said, and I did a little video about it and posted about it.

24:51And she said people came after me for letting them do that. She was following them. She was right there. And I think to dig underneath the safetyism, what we would say is that's our own anxiety. It's my anxiety when I'm worried something's going to happen to my nephew in the bathroom. It's not about him. He's capable. He knows what to do if someone approaches him in a scary way. It's my anxiety. And so I think, you know, we talk so much about how the best gift a parent can give their children is to do their own work, even around that idea. And I think I loved that you use the word safetyism because I think we have almost made it this category of good parenting to the degree that we're not recognizing that our anxiety is contributing to it.

25:42And in light of anxiety, the two most common parenting strategies are escape and avoidance. And so when they come up on that thing, I'm going to pull them out. And to your question of...