MPI: Summer, Separation & Growing Up: Helping Kids Thrive While Letting Go - Chris & Hunter

0:00Hunter Clarke-Fields:Hi, it's Hunter Clarke-Fields, author of Raising Good Humans. If you've ever thought, I wish I could help other parents the way I've been helped, this is for you. The Mindful Parenting Teacher Certification Program is now open for enrollment. You'll deepen your mindfulness, learn to lead powerful parenting groups, and join a supportive, heart-centered community. Are you ready to make a difference? I only take a very limited number of people into this program, so apply now. Visit mindfulparentingcourse.com slash teach.

0:31Hunter Clarke-Fields:Welcome to the Mindful Mama podcast. Here it's about becoming a less irritable, more joyful parent. At Mindful Mama, we know that you cannot give what you do not have, and when you have calm and peace within, then you can give it to your children. I'm your host, Hunter Clark-Fields. I help smart, thoughtful parents stay calm so they can have strong, connected relationships with their children. I've been practicing mindfulness for over 25 years. I'm the creator of the Mindful Parenting course and teacher training, and the author of the international bestseller Raising Good Humans, Raising Good Humans Every Day, and the Raising Good Humans Guided Journal.

1:10Hunter Clarke-Fields:Hi, Chris. How are you? I'm great. Happy summer. Happy summer. We are here doing a live podcast. So welcome to the Mindful Mama podcast. I'm so glad you're here. If you're in the studio audience here, say hi. Tell us you're here because we're doing another live one. But I'm here again with my friend, Chris Willard, Dr. Chris Willard, Harvard psychologist, author of many books, including Growing Up Mindful, and like 20 other books. And my favorite title, Feelings Are Like Farts, which really, really says it all. And we're here today to talk about the art of letting go, summer independence and growing up because it's summer.

2:00Hunter Clarke-Fields:It's summer, like right now. It is full-on summer. Even though my daughter still has two more weeks of school, it is 100 % summer for everybody else in the country except for my poor daughter. So yeah. It's so sad. Yes, too bad. She's like counting down those days. My daughter just had her last day of school so yeah we're we're here uh in in the summer i've been to the pool already it's nice the community pool um yeah it's great so anyway we're going to talk about summer and the art of letting go we're going to talk about you know different ages right you your kids are 8 and 11 old now we're talking about letting go for like college and things like that and um college and all of our lives being normal during the school year and having routines and there i know it's true of summer yeah it's interesting and things are so different than when we were kids too like when summer happens so um yeah let's just dive into it i mean yeah we want to think about all those sort of different things that are happening now Like you, dear listener, you may be in a situation where your kids have different caregivers.

3:21Hunter Clarke-Fields:You have different routines. There's camps. There's vacations. There's sleepovers. There's summer jobs. There's college visits. There's kids leaving for college. And then you also might have aging parents. There's a whole lot of stuff happening in the summer, except it also feels like it slows slows down and speeds up at the same time. A hundred percent. Yes, both of those things. Absolutely. Simultaneously. Time is so distorted. But when you're a parent, I don't know what that is, but it's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not sure what's happening. So, yeah, there's a lot going on. So we're going to talk about this idea of transitions.

4:05Hunter Clarke-Fields:And these transitions in general, these are kind of, we want them, right? We crave them. We're like, give me vacation, give me summer, give me all this stuff. And then when the time comes, it's hard for us to maneuver through transitions. They're hard for us, right? Because part of us wants this change and variety. And part of us is like, oh, we want this predictability. Everything's different. It's all uncomfortable, right? Right. Yeah. Yeah. That's how I feel. It's like, I just can't wait to, I mean, when my kids were little, it's like, oh my gosh, we're going to go to the beach. It's going to be awesome.

4:39Oh my gosh, they're eating sand. Oh my gosh, they're going to drown. Right. It's, you know, we have kids and it's just the expectations versus the realities or even summer vacation of it's going to be a dream, but then it's also, I want to eat this. I want to eat that or, you know, whatever, you know, new things come up and it's just, you know, it's all that sort of, it's not good or bad. It's just different and how do we manage that and vacation looks different and you know when the kids were little someone's saying yeah well you're not doing vacation you're doing a trip that's that's different and we'll be a while then it will start to feel like vacation um when they're a bit older we've gotten to more of that recently but it's it's different and as you said all those transitions the the routines are different the time's getting up the time's going like there's just so much yeah just all the transitions basically yeah which if you start with like if we start with

5:29Hunter Clarke-Fields:the younger ages the transitions our brain is primed when we have little kids babies little kids toddlers preschoolers our brain is kind of still primed to think that our vacation is going to be fun and relaxing but but we have a small child and so the idea of like taking them out of their routine and taking them to a different place is so disrupting and it makes it so hard and in some ways so much worse than staying home would be right right what's that meme that's like you know like we you know our family like went on vacation and we tried like different shaped french fries and different and slightly different crispiness level of chicken right?

6:20It's sort of, yeah, it's, yeah, trying to trying to get out, but then also finding ourselves sort of trapped in these other ways, but these transitions of discomfort. And that's also so good, right? It's so good for us to get out of the routine. It's so good for them to get used to different shaped french fries or whatever, maybe somewhere else in a different location and different, you know, scratchy beds or, you know, whatever it might be in a hotel or Airbnb or something, I mean, it is so helpful for all of us because it teaches us, it's practice for transitions, right? So many grownups I talk to, they talk, whether it's teachers, my kids can't transition, parents, my kids are struggling with transitions, can you help them?

7:00A lot of it's like, how do we practice that stuff, Hunter? It's like, you know, we don't get better at things unless we practice them. Actually learning how to practice transitions is really important at all ages to keep ourselves young in some ways and to help them get used to this and to be more flexible in these different ways. So it is actually really important to do these transitions, to mix it up in these different ways with summer and different kinds of activities and different kinds of routines. To me, it also actually really reinforces the regular routines of the school year, the regular routines of, yeah, we don't eat ice cream every night at home, but this is vacation, so it's different.

7:38But then that actually then reinforces what the screen time rules are during the rest of the year, what the food expectations are during the rest of the year. So actually vacation can be great and not trying to make all the same rules apply or make everywhere we go exactly the same as home just somewhere else is actually so good for us to actually reinforce some of that stuff during the rest of the regular time that we have. So there's a lot to be learned, I think, from getting out of our routine. It emphasizes what our actual routines are, what our values are in these different ways too.

8:13Hunter Clarke-Fields:When I was little, my parents did a lot of dropping us off at my grandparents' house in New Hampshire and then going away. Me and my brother would stay there for a week. And it's funny, I don't think we ever did that to my parents and I'm now regretting that and wishing that we had done that a little bit more. But yeah, thinking about different expectations, I went through an experience at my grandparents' house where like they wanted to take us out to ice cream, which they did, which is great. But grandpa wanted me to wear a skirt or a dress or something. And I was like, no, that's crazy. Like I don't like wearing skirts or dresses and I'm not gonna just wear a dress to get ice cream by my brother.

8:58Hunter Clarke-Fields:My older brother was like, Hunter, come on, just put on the dress so we can get ice cream. And I'm like, no, no way. I'm not doing it. So in a very stubborn, stubborn family, we didn't get ice cream that night, sadly. I had some similar grandparents, actually. Very rigid about certain things. Did you ever go to, I never went to summer camp, sleepaway summer camp. And I'm wondering if you went to sleepaway summer camp or have your kids gone to sleepaway summer camp? My kids have gone to like a week of scout camp, which is kind of the extent of it. But there's also a whole practice of letting go if you're sending your kids to like four weeks of camp.

9:40There is. I mean, I feel like, you know, there's homesickness for kids and there's kid sickness for parents, I feel like, in these different ways. And it's both an opportunity, you know, to let go. The theme of today, how do we let go? How do we trust? You know, all those kinds of things. How do we trust the world? How do we trust our child and what we've taught them, you know, to be independent in these places? But it's also, you know, I was not a big camp kid. My parents accidentally sent me to a camp that was very religious, which was really disconcerting and maybe a little bit too far out of my routine to get used to.

10:17But so that was an interesting experience. I really never went back. I had a few like teen summer, you know, kind of community service trips and wilderness trips, but sort of the kind of elementary school, middle school overnight camps they didn't do. And I actually really wish that they had, number one, found a better camp that was a better fit for me. But I think that does teach kids such independence. And so people that I work with have this like, the school year is not great for them or socially things are not ideal, but you find your right camp. you know you have this whole other world and this you can be yourself in this really different way and actually did get a lot of that at some of the day camps I went to this great kind of like farm and wilderness day camp nearby and a few other ones I just made really different friends than I did during the school year and experiences and felt like I could be myself because the school year wasn't as great socially for me as some of those activities so like there there is that and then as a parent it's also I do feel like whether it's sending a kid to college or camp it's like you're having to let go and trust the world but also kind of it's like do I trust myself do I trust the parenting that I've done that they'll be safe and make good decisions and are able to get around and all that and that's hard I think we want to kind of put it on the world like is the world safe but actually it's like did I Some of that is actually some of our own self-doubt if we really look a bit more closely at it.

11:47So that could help, I think, for a lot of us. Yeah.

11:53Hunter Clarke-Fields:Stay tuned for more Mindful Mama podcasts right after this break. Okay, so when you have a parenting question at 2 a.m., where do you go? Reddit is the only place to get real answers from parents who have actually been there at any time. If you're new to Reddit, think of it as thousands of topic-based communities. There are so many good ones for parenting where you can ask, you know, is this regression behavior normal? And you can get answers from parents who've been there like a second ago. So I have been using Reddit to research for my newest book that I'm working on and working on some toddler stuff.

12:36Hunter Clarke-Fields:And I was reading all about toddler tantrums. And I love the subreddit science-based parenting. And there's so many good answers there and so many different subtle experiences that go into their answers. So it's interesting because it was like reading the questions that have been asked me over the years and reading all these answers and people who validation works and it doesn't. It's really, really interesting. And why? So parenting, I know it can feel so overwhelming, but Reddit is a place where real parents are swapping advice, venting, and getting the kinds of answers that you can't find elsewhere.

13:13Hunter Clarke-Fields:Whether you're looking for practical guidance, recommendations, or just reassurance that you're not alone. I know parenting doesn't come with a manual. You can find real advice from real parents on the Reddit app. Download the Reddit app and check out the subreddit, Science Based Parenting. I think you'll find a lot there to like. Go ahead and download the Reddit app today. Did I prepare them enough? Yeah, I think it's interesting because our job, you know, is attachment, right? But the goal is separation. And then we're in summer. And whether your kids are going to camp or whether you're home and maybe you want to give them a little more freedom to be out in the world at home because it's summer and maybe they can like play with the kids in the neighborhood or something like that it's it's i think right i think especially right now it's really hard for for parents to to let let our kids kind of have more autonomy and confidence um and kind of like leading to that competence actually so i just talked to lenore skanezi for the podcast recently she gave me this crazy statistic um and I wonder what you think about this, that the majority of 14-year-olds are not allowed off the block by themselves.

14:36Whoa, whoa. Oh, she's doing such important work that she's helping kids get off the block. Oh my gosh, oh my gosh. Yeah, yeah.

14:45Hunter Clarke-Fields:I know. That's how I felt. The best statistic. And I was like, that seems really sad. Also like really scary too because then these kids are going to be 18 in four years and they've got to have some experience being in the world, right? And maybe summer is a good time to kind of lead up to like doing some things like getting off the block. So do you have any advice for parents who maybe of different ages who have been holding on pretty tightly, but maybe their kids want to do some independent things and how to maybe this summer might be a good time to kind of let them do some things on their own.

15:31Hunter Clarke-Fields:What are maybe some good first steps, you know, for instance, for I mean, your kids are eight and 11 for some months. You know, kids. Yeah, it is. I mean, I think like one of the things that summer does is time is in some ways less of a constraint. So like, you know, we got into it with my son yesterday, but he had gotten a ride home from, you know, a parent camp until other camps began is the other parents because he's out a little bit earlier than than summer camps are starting up here and he's like pick me up and we're like no you can walk home he's like no pick like no you can walk home but like it's things like that it's like no we're actually still working and camps a different schedule than school and so we're not picking you up and you know and the mixed result is he was assertive enough to ask for a ride from another parent right so he learned how to do it for himself to you know get a ride for another parent to our sort of chagrin about that.

16:26But I think it is things like that. Or, you know, yes, you can go walk to the, you know, the park by yourself because you don't have homework. So it becomes in this opportunity, I think, in these different ways for independence and for the independence that chores and making money can bring. A lot of things kids want to do in the summer, they want to be able to afford the ice cream man. They want to go to the amusement park or, you know, whatever it might be. And it's like, oh, well, you know, maybe some learning how to mow the lawn and knock on some neighbor's doors or, you know, there's other opportunities like that to do some work and earn some money even before they have, you know, a proper summer job.

17:06But, you know, those things all give an incredible sense of self-confidence and self-esteem. I feel like jobs are phenomenal for that, but just that sort of like, oh, I can do this. Or it's okay if you get a little bit lost, not too lost, but going to the store or down to get bubble tea or whatever it might be, or staying out a bit later with your friends and that kind of thing. And I think we have to be willing to take that risk and encourage them to take that risk within limits. And it doesn't mean suddenly, what's that saying? It's like we raise kids in captivity and expect them to you know, survive in the wild as they get to call it beyond.

17:47But it's like, okay, well, what's the in-between step? You know, if the goal is independence down the road, like what's one block away? What's two blocks away? What's three blocks away? You know, kind of both physically and emotionally in these different ways to help our kids feel that independence and get that independence is what we're trying to do a little bit more of. But then it's also this push-pull of my son wants to ride. It's so hot outside.

18:14Hunter Clarke-Fields:I guess you could like, you know, ask them, you know, like, what are some things that independence things that you want to do? Right? Like, what is it you're interested in doing? Do you want to do a lemonade stand? Do you want to? Yes. Do you want to? I don't know. Like, do you want to? Do you want to get a candy bar at the corner store? Do you? You know, do you want to walk to this camp by yourself? Right. And so then if you do want to do those things, okay, let's like do it together first. And these are the things maybe that I'll watch out for in this, when I'm crossing this street, I have to look, you know, be careful about this thing or whatever.

18:52Hunter Clarke-Fields:And like, you know, let's just like get the lay of the land. And then, you know, after they feel comfortable, it's like, okay, go for it on your own. And then I think that's so helpful for parents to just have a moment. I don't know. Yeah, there's this, after I talked to Lenore, I talked, I watched this video and this mom had been doing these like independence activities and her six-year-old or seven, no, seven, seven-year-old wanted to order Chick-fil-A on his own. And she was like, okay, all right, cool. So the whole video is like her in her car being like, okay, he's in there. I think like, you know, I can't see him.

19:32Hunter Clarke-Fields:I don't know what's going on. I don't know what could be happening. She's like freaking out. She's like in the car. And she's like, but she restrains herself from rushing it. And eventually he comes back and he's so psyched that they just eat the Chick-fil-A in the car. But anyway, it was so sweet. But also I think it was such an important process for us. Like a process for her to have because our kids need that. Like we're, we're really, we've become so good at the connection, right? There's that, there's this self-determination theory developed by psychologists, Edward Desi and Richard Ryan.

20:08Hunter Clarke-Fields:But it says that kids thrive when they have these three things, three needs are supported and one is connection. And I think we've gotten like really good at that. You know, we're not yelling at people, our kids so much, we're not thanking them so much. We're really like concerned about this connection piece. Yeah. And but the other two pieces are autonomy and competence. Yeah. And it's like, oh, what about these pieces? These are also like really big, important pieces about growing up. And these I think summertime is a great time to to maybe exercise some of this. absolutely i i feel like i love that i mean it's like that competence and i think summer jobs do that that autonomy of you know starting to you know we'll make some of your own plans with the neighborhood kids or with other friends and we'll you know help facilitate that and and all of that but i think you know both of those i feel like are such key skills um for for growing up and growing up healthy um to feel competent in your life and to feel like you're you're autonomous as well as connected.

21:15I think that's what so much of the conflict of parenting is, is that autonomy versus connection. And they're actually both really possible. And it's very important that we emphasize both of those. They're not mutually exclusive in any way. I think that's so important to remember too. And Summer's a great chance for that, both for deeper connection of we're going to go on vacation together as a family. And I think, you know, and spend time together, but also like we're going to make decisions together as a family or where do you want to go on vacation if that's possible. Right. But even just like, okay, will you help, you know, chart out the path to wherever it is that we're going for the drive?

21:53Or can you navigate the airport? Or can you pack your stuff? Or can you, you know, help get the tent set up or get it set up? Or, you know, a chance to share chores. Growing up, we did a lot of camping as a kid and it really became, you know, we had a dishwasher at home, but not when you're camping. And so, you know, it's like, okay, I'll do the dishes tonight. You're going to do the cleaning. of the tent and you're going to do the cooking and you're going to do XYZ, right? So it becomes actually these opportunities to learn these other skills that are both connection and autonomy and mastery.

22:25I guess that's not both, that's three. But again, I think all of those things can happen with family vacations, time together or family staycations. I mean, all of it. So there are these just amazing opportunities. As you said, that feeling of autonomy, that feeling of I can do this is so important for kids to be able to do that. Or I can have a lemonade, we have on our street competing lemonade stands between myself and my daughter, but it's -

22:51Hunter Clarke-Fields:Wait, wait, wait. Siblings are like competing on their lemonade stands on either side. They're like fighting over the signs in business and my daughter's younger. So she's like getting the cuteness factor customers. It's like, oh my gosh, too. Why don't you collaborate? No, I don't want her in mine. I got to do it for the money. Well, let's think this through. Okay, so let's imagine there might be a free week in summer, right? Because I know people are scheduled. You scheduled your summer way, way in advance, right? But there might be a free week or it might be a couple of free weeks. And this might be a nice opportunity to then like have a conversation with your kid.

23:33Hunter Clarke-Fields:Like, hey, this week in August is free. you know i have to be home working or i have to be wherever i'm gonna be working i'm gonna be but what do you want to do with that week right like you know let your kid think in advance about it like do you because also unfortunately they we can't count on them being able to go outside and just find their friends anymore because everybody's really busy so you know it might be good to talk to them ahead of time about kind of like you know what are some things you want to do that week do you want to invite a friend over do you want to you know what you know invite them to kind of think about it and um and i guess like it just uh i don't know there's something about like a little bit of that boredom what do you think about like the boredom versus the screen time in the summer and uh let's think about this i mean but this is a trial right uh free time no screen time in the summer.

24:38Actually, it's funny because we're not a super screen-oriented family, but I'm driving these kids around because I've got this sort of like, you know, four parents taking care of four boys alternating days thing going on until camp gets started. And this one camp was like, you know, like, I really need, I'm going to, you know, sleepaway camp. I really need the break from screen time. And I was like, what a sweet, like this other kid in the car who actually has this level of self-awareness, I think, around it. I think it's also how do we model it? It's like, you know, are we, you know, how are we relating to our screens when we're going fishing or going hiking or going camping?

25:14Like, are we putting them away? Are we hanging on to them? Are we bringing books and board games and cards? Are we bringing our screens, right? I mean, all of that, I think, is important in terms of how are we modeling appreciation and connection with each other and connection with nature. If, you know, that's part of our summer values, too, I think is really important. And I'm a believer in boredom. Boredom is great for kids, especially boredom in nature. Boredom when there's not a phone in sight or a screen in sight because then it's just going to be that magnetic draw, which is research on.

25:50It's like conversation goes down when there's a screen around, all these other kinds of things. So I think playing with how do we do more of that in different ways, I feel like is really good. But it's hard. I'm not going to say it's easy to do by any means. But yeah.

26:06Hunter Clarke-Fields:Yeah. One thing I did when my kids were little or littler and they're teenagers now, they're 16 and 19. But I would, we live in a cul-de-sac with a tiny patch of woods across the street and I would kick them out of the house. I'd be like, go play. Go play somewhere for a while and come back later. And I felt comfortable doing that because we had been around the neighborhood. We had talked about how to cross streets. We'd been in the woods. They knew it carefully. They knew how to get back. They knew all those different things. They were old enough to be able to handle that. I could judge, you know.

26:43Hunter Clarke-Fields:I guess I also didn't worry about my neighbors calling Child Protective Services as well. Hopefully, we'll have some laws very, very soon to protect parents against that. But like, yeah, I mean, are there, I don't know, I guess like for us, we have to be mindful in some ways of, I guess this is like, this is a lot of our, this brings up a lot of our own fears and our own, you know, that the urge to make everything perfect or right for our kids, right? Some of that comes up, dealing with some of this and that discomfort of letting go the first time a little bit more can be really hard. Maybe do it for small bits of time at first.

27:31Hunter Clarke-Fields:I don't know. Any thoughts on that? Yeah. I mean, I think it can be baby steps. It's just like everything in mindfulness. It's like, how do I try to be a bit more mindful today than I was yesterday and not be perfect? How do I try to sit for two minutes today if I sat for one minute yesterday? How do I try to yell at my kids four times tomorrow if I yelled at them five times today? it's all of that kind of approach of how do we, you know, stretch ourselves and help our kids stretch themselves with independence? How do I go into the woods with them? I mean, I think about like, well, my parents like would have me walk to school right first.