[Parenting Challenging Kids Series] How To Solve Behavior Problems - Dr. Ross Greene

17:33Dr. Ross Greene:Well, in the very first meeting I have with parents, whether it's virtual or in my office, we are identifying all the skills this kid is struggling with. I want to make sure the caregivers have the right lenses on. This kid's frustration responses are not because of poor parenting or poor motivation. They are about skills that this kid is struggling with. By the way, a lot of parents are very relieved to hear that. But it's parents who helped me realize that because my big aha moment as a clinician, which occurred a very long time ago, was when I first started noticing that the parents who were seeking me out because of a kid who had concerning behaviors, those parents had other children in the home who were well-behaved.

18:28Dr. Ross Greene:And yet, we've been blaming parents forever. for the concerning behavior of their kids. We've been saying that the parents, you know what we've been calling the kids, what have we been calling the parents? Passive, permissive, inconsistent, non-contingent, inept disciplinarians. Yikes. How did it come to pass that they have a well-behaved kid in their home? That's what I started thinking about, right? Good point. That's what led me to the research about skills and concerning behavior. So the first thing we're going to do, and this is going to be quick, is we're going to identify the skills this kid is struggling with so the parents know this is about skills, not motivation.

19:10Dr. Ross Greene:That is a massive shift right off the bat. What that means is they are now out of the reward and punishment business. They're off the hook for coming up with an even more potent, even more persuasive reward or punishment to incentivize their kid to do well. But the next section, this is an instrument that we use called the assessment of skills and unsolved problems. It's on the website of the nonprofit I founded, Lives in the Balance. It's free. The next section is where we're identifying unsolved problems. And what we're going to do is we're going to make a list of every expectation the parent's kid is having difficulty reliably meeting.

19:52Dr. Ross Greene:Even if the kid can meet the expectations sometimes and not others, it's an unsolved problem.

19:59Hunter Clarke-Fields:then what we're gonna do because there's probably go ahead wait so in in a case typical to this like where it's like getting off the xbox to go to dinner what might be of some of those things that kids are having difficulty with oh just um we're gonna have the kid tell us that when we ask we're getting to that part um what's making it hard for the kid to get off the xbox to come in

20:27Dr. Ross Greene:for dinner. I can tell you the kind of things I hear, but I don't like to tell people what it is for any particular kid because I'm not in the divining business. And I encourage parents and educators and mental health professionals to not be in the divining business. The number one, the best source of information on what's making it hard for a kid to meet a particular expectation is the kid. I can tell you some of the things I hear, but the important part is to find out. We haven't talked about that part yet. I hear I'm in the middle of a game and I don't want to lose my level.

21:07Dr. Ross Greene:You don't give me enough time to play. I want more time to play. I hear all kinds of things. The most important thing is to hear it from the kid, not for us to divine what's getting in the kid's way, right? Now we've got our list of unsolved problems. We have to do something very important. We have to prioritize. Because most of the time when caregivers are seeking out my help, it's not because the kid has just one or two unsolved problems. It's because the kid has like 30 or 40. Because they do tend to accumulate when they don't get identified and solved. We're going to have to prioritize because we're not going to be able to solve 30 or 40 unsolved problems.

21:50Dr. Ross Greene:at once. What I'm going to help them do is pick three, our top priorities. Three unsolved problems that we're going to start working on first. That's session number one, believe it or not. We did all that in session number one. We helped them change their lenses. We helped them organize the effort, and we helped them shift from focusing on frustration responses, a kid's concerning behavior, to the problems that are causing them, and we help them figure out which ones are going to start working on first. I'd say that's quite a lot for one hour.

22:29Hunter Clarke-Fields:That is a lot. And I'm curious about, like, for a kid who has 30 or 40 problems that they're identifying, I imagine that the top priority is not going to be giving the kid more time to finish their game. I mean, maybe it will be. I don't know. But what are some typical top-tier priorities that are identified when parents are working with you?

22:52Dr. Ross Greene:The algorithm that we use is safety first. Any unsolved problem that might involve safety is going to be our top priorities, right? If we don't have any safety issues, we're either going to, with frequency, be unsolved.

23:06Hunter Clarke-Fields:Well, what might be a safety issue? I'm just trying to imagine what that might be like. Like, obviously, running in the road or something would be one, but imagine if you have a verbal kid that's something different than that.

23:18Dr. Ross Greene:Well, running in the road is probably a frustration response, which is preceded by an expectation the kid was having difficulty meeting. But if the kid is running into the road because they're having difficulty getting off the Xbox to go to bed at night, I'd probably count that as the first issue, right? But it can also be things like difficulty going to school is often a very high priority. Difficulty coming in for curfew by 11 p.m. might involve safety. Difficulty practicing safe sex. These are older kids we're talking about a little bit here. Might be a safety issue. So those might be some things involving safety, right?

23:57Dr. Ross Greene:If we don't have safety issues, we're either going to go with frequency, the unsolved problems that are occurring the most, or gravity, the unsolved problems having the greatest negative impact on this kid's life or the lives of others. We get to pick three. Then, I'm going to explain to the parents, this is day two, right, about the three plans that we could use to handle those unsolved problems. Plan A, Plan B, and Plan C. Plan A is the popular one, but one that you're almost never going to be using when you're implementing this model. It's when the caregiver is imposing a solution and solving the problem unilaterally.

24:48Dr. Ross Greene:Somebody very important missing from that mix.

24:51Hunter Clarke-Fields:The child, that would cause a good amount of resentment, I imagine. And I wouldn't.

24:57Dr. Ross Greene:Let there be no doubts. Plan B is where you're solving the exact same problem, but collaboratively, not unilaterally. And we have just arrived at the next big shift. We're not only solving these problems proactively, we're solving them with the full involvement of the kid. And then the third plan is called plan C. Those are the unsolved problems that we're putting on hold for now Once again, you can't solve everything at once And by the way, the kid isn't meeting the expectation anyway So, now we have two choices Continue putting the expectation on the kid that they are currently not meeting Cause concerning behavior and all that goes along with it Or, make it official these expectations are on hold for now.

25:55Dr. Ross Greene:Now, many adults get queasy about that. They say forever. No, I say no for now. We're prioritizing because we can't solve everything at once. Took a long time for that pile of unsolved problems to accumulate. Gonna take a little while to work our way through them. Those are the three plans. And then what I'm gonna do is teach them how to do plan B. And I'm happy to talk about that too.

26:19Hunter Clarke-Fields:We weren't taught that, I think, plan B. We're raised with do what I say because I say it. And that's why you should do it. And I think that mindset is kind of still pretty pervasive, right? Like we don't understand, you know, it's like we know, a lot of parents know, we don't want to necessarily be the authoritarian parents that our parents were. And that caused the resentment in us, right? Right. And yet we don't know the middle path between. The parents solve all the problems and then, you know, the opposite, which is then they give up and they say, have it your way and the kids solve all the problems, which isn't great at all either.

27:01Hunter Clarke-Fields:Right. Like they we don't understand the middle way. I was really happy to see this because this is what we talk about, you know, this idea of how involving kids in problem solving and solving problems together, I think is, and for me, it was, it's a key, I think, to avoiding a lot of those problem solve, you know, those power struggles that we're getting into is like, let's, let's all figure it out. Like, what are my needs as a parent? I need to be able to have a peaceful dinner and not be screamed at when it's time to have dinner and it's time for you to come over, right? Like, I need to be able to relax in my house.

27:40Hunter Clarke-Fields:What do you need? Let's figure this out. Let's talk about what is it that you need and we need to learn. Talk to me about this approach, a collaborative problem-solving approach.

27:52Dr. Ross Greene:Well, and I call it collaborative and proactive solutions because the proactive part is critical. The plan B, as we call it, consists of three steps. The empathy step is first. It's where you're gathering information from the kid about what's making it hard for them to meet a particular expectation. And I'm always telling caregivers to be prepared for surprises in the empathy step when they discover that what they thought was getting in the kid's way is not what's getting in the kid's way. The define it all concern step comes next. That's where the adult is entering their concern into consideration.

28:30Dr. Ross Greene:Go ahead.

28:30Hunter Clarke-Fields:Wait, can we go back to the empathy step? Because what might be a surprise thing that would come up? Give me an example of that.

28:40Dr. Ross Greene:I was working with a father and his three-year-old daughter, and she was having difficulty brushing her teeth before going to bed at night. And he was telling me that he was sure it was the taste of the toothpaste. But five or six different flavors of toothpaste later, she was still having difficulty brushing her teeth before going to bed at night. So he was telling me he finally did the empathy step and learned that when he brushed her teeth with the electric toothbrush, it got water all over her face. And she didn't like getting water sprayed on her face when he was brushing her teeth. Go figure.

29:18Dr. Ross Greene:What I said to the father was, there's a concern five or six different flavors of toothpaste would never address. So see, this unilateral business sure does take a lot of time. When people are hearing about the problem-solving process, often their first thought is, isn't this going to take a while? Doesn't take anywhere nearly as much time as all those unilateral solutions that didn't work and all those concerning behaviors that have piled up over the years. Plan B never takes that long. So it's worth asking the kid. And we refer to this model as an ask the kid model. And remember, we're doing this proactively.

29:59Dr. Ross Greene:another key mantra of this model is don't be late. If your kid is getting upset over an unsolved problem yet again, you're late and that problem isn't solved yet.

30:16Hunter Clarke-Fields:Stay tuned for more Mindful Mama podcasts right after this break.

30:22Dr. Ross Greene:We're leaving today and entering a world of Mickey Mouse waving, princess meeting and greeting. Lightsaber clashing. The Twilight Zone Tower of Terror dropping. Banshee flying. Space Mountain launching. Galaxy rewinding. What's the whole death of galaxy rewinding? Fireworks igniting. World of Other Worlds. For whatever you love. Infinite worlds await at the most magical place on Earth. Walt Disney World Resort.

30:54Hunter Clarke-Fields:Okay, yeah, I love this, that Ask the Kid model. I mean, these are the best things when we're like, duh, of course, why don't we do this? Of course, we should ask the kid. But sometimes we don't think about it. A lot of us just don't think about that. And we're like, okay, well, what could it be? I don't know. It could be this. It could be that. Let's just ask. Let's find out.

31:20Dr. Ross Greene:That's why this has to be planful and intentional, right? It's hard to think straight when you're in the heat of the moment with your kid. I got an idea. Let's get you out of the heat of the moment with your kid. I always say that unsolved problems are like 99.9 % predictable because the vast majority of them are old, right? It's just we haven't identified them yet, mostly because we were so focused on the kid's behavior and modifying it. And if we haven't identified them yet, we haven't solved them yet either.

31:51Hunter Clarke-Fields:Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So step one, empathies. I interrupted you.

31:54Dr. Ross Greene:Empathy steps.

31:55Hunter Clarke-Fields:Step two. Right.

31:56Dr. Ross Greene:Got to find out what's really getting in the way for the kid meeting this expectation. Right. Define it all. Concern step is where the adult is entering their concern into consideration. The same concern that might previously have led them into plan A is now leading them into plan B. What might the father's concerns have been on brushing teeth before going to bed at night? Doesn't want his kid to get cavities because it kind of hurts to get cavities filled and he doesn't want to spend the money. Good. We now have two sets of things.

32:25Hunter Clarke-Fields:And a stinky breath.

32:27Dr. Ross Greene:Well, whatever your concerns are. I don't tell adults what their concerns are either. The third step and final step is the invitation. This is where kid and caregiver are collaborating on a solution. But the solution has to meet two criteria. It's got to be realistic. Both parties got to be able to do what they're agreeing to do. And the solution has to be mutually satisfactory. this is big, meaning it has to address the concerns of both parties. If the solution is not realistic and mutually satisfactory, this problem isn't solved. And when we go back to all these solutions that have typically been unilaterally imposed, almost always that solution was neither realistic nor mutually satisfactory, and therefore it was doomed right out of the gate.

33:19Hunter Clarke-Fields:Yeah, let's talk to the kids about what they can live with, what meets their needs as well.

33:26Dr. Ross Greene:It's less needs, it's more concerns. It's less what you can live with. It's more, let's come up with a solution that works for both of us and that addresses the concerns of both parties.

33:36Hunter Clarke-Fields:Okay. All right. So, and an example of the toothbrushing, I guess it was just like, let's get a different toothbrush, huh?

33:44Dr. Ross Greene:Oh, well, no, it wasn't a toothbrush. gosh um and by the way the person you're asking for a solution initially is the kid you can actually give the kid the first crack at the solution even a three-year-old often who often have great ideas um the three-year-old this is her idea suggested that her father wrap a towel around her face when they were brushing her teeth before she went to bed at night her face didn't get wet. She didn't get cavities. That's what I would call mutually satisfactory.

34:20Hunter Clarke-Fields:Yeah, that is mutually satisfactory.

34:24Dr. Ross Greene:By the way, I should make the point. All of the concerning behaviors that could have been caused by that unsolved problem were no longer caused by that unsolved problem because, once again, this is worth repeating, it's only unsolved problems that cause concerning behavior. Solved problems don't. In this model, you are improving behavior by solving the problems that are causing them.

34:51Hunter Clarke-Fields:Now, would emotional regulation be, where would that come into play as far as teaching and helping kids with some of that in this model?

35:04Dr. Ross Greene:Well, emotional regulation is definitely one of the skills the research tells us kids with concerning behaviors could be struggling with. A question is, and this is an interesting question, is that a skill that can be taught through direct instruction? I have my doubts. That's a great question. Here's what I do know. When you're doing plan B with kids over time, you're not only solving problems and not only improving their concerning behavior that's being caused by those problems, you are also giving them modeling and practice at the very skills they're struggling with. Emotion regulation may be being tops on the list.

35:43Hunter Clarke-Fields:Yeah, you're showing them how to slow down and think things through and to ask questions, to be open, all of these things that we want them to do. For sure.

35:56Dr. Ross Greene:I guess if you ask me, what's the main thing us human beings got to do when we're faced with a problem or frustration, it's solve the problem that's causing it in the first place. If we can help this kid become a good problem solver, take other people's concerns into account, come up with solutions that are realistic and mutually satisfactory, there is no doubt in my mind that you are going to see improved self-regulation skills in that kid. Yeah.

36:26Hunter Clarke-Fields:And it's also starting off with empathy. So it's not just like, let's go in and solve the problem and make it go away. It's let's go in and listen and hear what's going on and kind of hear and see the feelings so that we can, you know, acknowledge them and not just skip over that part. I think that's really important. A lot of parents, they say that my kid won't tell me what's wrong. What helps kids open up so that we can really understand the factors behind their challenges?

36:59Dr. Ross Greene:The first piece of advice is don't try to talk to your kid about their concerning behavior. That just causes them to think they're in trouble, become defensive, and stop talking. I find that the vast majority of kids, once we stop trying to talk with them about their concerning behavior and start trying to talk with them about problems they've been struggling with for a very long time, they talk. But we also, and people can learn about this on the Life in the Balance website as well, but also in the new book that I have coming out called The Kids Who Aren't Okay, there's a bunch of drilling strategies, probing strategies that we teach parents and other caregivers how to use in the context of teaching them how to do Plan B.

37:46Dr. Ross Greene:foremost among them, I'll just give one example, is a drilling strategy called reflective listening. Mirroring. Simply saying back to the kid whatever the kid just said to you. Now, many people think that's kind of hokey, right? But it's a very good way to help the kid feel heard, to help the kid clarify their concerns, to help the kid feel like the concern is legitimate, to help the kid know that we're listening, to keep the kid talking, I could ask for no more from a drilling strategy. So one reason kids don't talk to us is because we're trying to talk with them about the wrong thing. That's a big one, right?

38:28Dr. Ross Greene:If we're talking with them about unsolved problems, I think the kid's going to talk. But we have a bunch of strategies as well for what to do if the kid won't talk. On that list is a very simple one, guessing. You can guess if the kid is having trouble telling you for whatever reason, possibly because they think you're about to lower the boom, by the way. But if they know you're not about to lower the boom and you're really talking with them about an unsolved problem rather than a concerning behavior, you got all that stuff cleared out of the way and you're not doing this in the heat of the moment, you're doing it proactively, if all those things are good, and a kid still is having difficulty telling you what's making it hard for them to meet an expectation, yes.

39:13Dr. Ross Greene:And if they still won't respond verbally, I usually go to my default. I teach the kid five fingers. Five means very true. Four means pretty true. Three means, this is not ingenious. Three means pretty true, whatever it is. Two means not very true. One means not very true at all. I guess all I got to do is hold, all the kids got to do is hold up fingers to let me know how true my guess is. I have obtained massive amounts of information from kids through fingers. Oh, interesting. I know. It sounds ingenious, doesn't it? I've been doing it forever.

39:52Hunter Clarke-Fields:No, it is really interesting because I guess what we're trying to figure out then is like, you know, if, you know, from our lens, maybe before we're listening to this podcast, I have a kid who I have all these conflicts with. I have a kid with massive behavior issues. And then I'm trying to shift to this idea, okay, my kid's having difficulty. And then I'm trying to think of like, what are the problems that need to be solved in that situation? it's it's um i think i feel like there's uh you know it it could be a challenging gap to jump from like you know there's this difficulty that i'm feeling this pain my kid's feeling this pain or having this conflict to what are the problems that need to be solved and yeah i guess like maybe having that list, having those prompts to talk to your kid about this then might be helpful.

40:59But I guess I'm wondering, is that where the biggest jump is for parents in some ways?

41:08Dr. Ross Greene:I think the biggest jump is to stop focusing on behavior and trying to modify it.

41:14Hunter Clarke-Fields:Yeah.

41:15Dr. Ross Greene:And start focusing on the problems that are causing that behavior and trying to solve them. That sets the stage for you to be proactive. That sets the stage for you to be collaborative. That helps you recognize why everything you've done so far hasn't worked very well. I mean, I guess we could keep doing what we've been doing, but that doesn't make any sense if it's not working. So I find that a lot of parents who have a kid they're struggling with are actually, aside from the fact that they are rather demoralized and rather desperate and feel rather alone, are often highly energized to get a new set of lenses on.

41:58Dr. Ross Greene:Oh, my goodness. This is skills, not motivation. Why didn't somebody tell me that? Right? That actually helps them start to feel some empathy for this kid who it's very difficult to feel empathy for, right? Again, it helps them understand why what they've been doing so far hasn't been working. And we have a very explicit roadmap for them about how to get out of the heat of the moment, how to focus on problems, not behaviors, and how to collaborate with kids on solving problems little by little. this starts to get better. And in fact, often you solve those three unsolved problems that you're working on first, you are seeing dramatic improvement rather quickly.

42:44Dr. Ross Greene:And by the way, just in case people are scared off by the possibility of having to solve 40, you're not going to have to solve 40 because some are going to solve by solving others. If you got 40, I'm going to guess you're going to end up solving 8, 10, because some are going going to solve by solving others. So don't get overwhelmed by 40. Get those first three solved and then see what your life is like.

43:08Hunter Clarke-Fields:Yeah. And then your kid will learn, hey, my parents listening to me, my parents wants to help me, is curious about how to, you know, how I'm getting hold on in this world. It's not just trying to be punitive, right? It's like, it's kind of like my parents a little bit more on my team. And so then it's going to make things snowball easier, I imagine.

43:32Dr. Ross Greene:We are partners. And by the way, I don't feel that bad about encouraging people to stop doing what isn't working. As I talk about in this new book, we are seeing sky-high rates, depression, anxiety, concerning behavior, suicidality, chronic school absenteeism in our kids these days, that tells us something. Tells us that a lot of what we've been doing hadn't been working, and that there have been a lot of changes in society over the last two to three decades that have made it a lot harder to be a kid. That's what those data tell me. And I think that given all the things that have made it harder to be a kid.

44:21Dr. Ross Greene:School shootings, high-stakes testing, zero-tolerance policies. The list in Chapter 1 of the kids who aren't okay, I'd go into great detail about it.

44:33Hunter Clarke-Fields:It is. It's an extensive list.

44:35Dr. Ross Greene:It is.

44:36Hunter Clarke-Fields:I verify this.

44:37Dr. Ross Greene:It makes me glad I grew up when I did. I know a lot of kids who are the age of my son, who's 25, who don't want to bring a kid into the world as it currently exists, which is fascinating. It's true. Right? The last thing the kids who aren't okay need from us is more of the same, more punitive, exclusionary, disciplinary practices. That's not what they need from us. We should stop doing what isn't working.

45:09Hunter Clarke-Fields:All right. Dr. Russ Green, this is amazing. If you could leave parents with three concrete things they could do this week to reduce the challenging behavior and strengthen collaboration with their kids, what would they be?

45:22Dr. Ross Greene:Hop on the Lives in the Balance website. This is still number one. Find the assessment of skills and unsolved problems and fill it out pronto, like as soon as possible. That's your kid. Those are the skills your kid is struggling with. Those are the unsolved problems that have been causing concerning behavior in your kid and conflict between you and your kid for a very long time. Thing number two, stay on the Life in the Balance website and go to the guided tour and watch the videos of the problem-solving process and start solving problems with your kid. And thing number three, when it comes out by the kids who aren't okay, it might be the best book I've ever written.

46:10Dr. Ross Greene:At least that's what one of the reviewers said.

46:13Hunter Clarke-Fields:Well, that is three awesome steps. I was going to share the book, but you've heard it from Ross himself, The Kids Who Aren't Okay, The Urgent Case for Reimagining Support, Belonging, and Hope in Schools, is available and out now. Thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast, And also for all the work you've done for kids for years to help us shift these mindsets. I think it's so essential to, you know, and the work you've done to help families. I think it's made incredible ripple effects. So thank you. Thank you for coming on. Thank you.

46:55Dr. Ross Greene:Thank you for having me on.

47:02Hunter Clarke-Fields:Wow. I hope this was an informative episode for you. It was for me. He has so many important things to say about these intense kids. So I hope this helped you. If it did, share it with some friends. Tell them to subscribe. Leave a rating and review. That really helps so, so much. So please do that. And this series is going to continue with parenting challenging kids. We're going to be talking about how to stop behavior that makes you crazy with Bethany Bill Doe next week. So stay tuned, catch up to last week, the Spicy Kids, Mary Van Geffen, if you haven't listened. And yeah, we'll talk to you real soon.

47:46Hunter Clarke-Fields:Thank you so much for being here. I hope this helps. And I will be practicing to have less stress and more ease in my life with you. Thank you for being here. Namaste.

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