[Parenting Challenging Kids Series] Parenting Your "Spicy" Kid - Mary Van Geffen

25:19Hunter Clark-Fields:And a strong willed child has a high counter will. If they don't feel connected to you, it's like something comes up in their system that says, why would I listen to this person? They're outside of my sphere of of safety. No, I'm going to rebel against it. They're going to have a defiance for no reason. So we want to bring that positive intelligence. I'm sorry. We want to bring that positive reinforcement and we want to set expectations and collaborate with them. This is the kind of kid that you can say, so remember when we left Target last time, that was really hard for you. Yeah, I wanted to have the Barbie.

25:58Hunter Clark-Fields:Yeah, you wanted the Barbie. So what should we do next time, get the Barbie. We can't get the Barbie because this is what's on our list. It's what we're going to get at Target. So how would you like me to help you leave without feeling so sad? Or do you just need to feel sad when we leave Target? She's like, I just want to play with the Barbie. Okay, what if you held the Barbie while we're pushing the cart around, but then we put the Barbie back where it goes? What do you think? Okay, I'll do that. Okay, and when we leave and you're sad that we're putting the Barbie back. What should I do? You can hug me.

26:34Hunter Clark-Fields:Okay, I'll try and hug you, but sometimes your body doesn't like to be hugged when you're upset, but I will attempt that. And then you have a plan. You put it in their brain. They feel like they had a part in it because they want to feel power and impact. And there's nothing wrong with wanting to feel power and impact. It's a human need. It's just stronger in the spicy one. So hitting those two techniques a lot more. And in my book, I've got lots of specifics and examples, like the do-over is really powerful, and the next time, and the two-by-two-by-two method. All these things really help.

27:12Mary Van Geffen:Do-over and next time are fairly self-explanatory. What's two-by-two-by-two?

27:18Hunter Clark-Fields:This comes from a book I found in 1978, and I was like, yes, this. And it was a little more punitive in that book. But two by two by two is you are, if you want to issue a command or I would say a request or set a limit with a spicy one, you must do it with two feet planted. You can't be like, okay, I'm getting the coffee and if you'll just get in the car, please. You can't do that. You have to bring yourself fully to the moment that you are setting a limit. So your two feet are planted. You are two feet within two feet of the spicy one. You're not shouting like, hey, get off that video game. Nope, you're coming up right next to them.

28:07Hunter Clark-Fields:It's time to get off video game. And the last two and the two by two by two is their two eyes are looking at your two eyes. If you haven't gotten their nervous system to see you and recognize you and be connected to you, they're likely not hearing you. And so we can look at it as defiance. But if I'm deep in putting one Lego on top of the other and you're saying that to me, I don't hear it. I'm in my little world of childhood. So first, come into their world. Maybe it's like, ooh, red on blue. And then they look up at you. Yeah, I'm making a torture chamber. Oh, wow. A torture chamber. Yeah. Well, it is time for us to get in the car.

28:51Hunter Clark-Fields:Would you like to bring the torture chamber with you or should we leave it here for safety? And they kind of look around. I'll bring it with me. Okay, let's go. But if I'm yelling to go do that, come on, get your stuff. We got to go. I'm amping up the stress and also I just ineffective. So two by two by two be two feet planted, two feet within them or close to them, and two eyes looking at their two eyes. And this doesn't quite work when you have a super neurodivergent kid. Maybe for them, they need to be coloring or moving their body and not looking at you. So there, maybe it's having some shared silence together to form that connection.

29:31Hunter Clark-Fields:That's what the two eyes is about.

29:33Mary Van Geffen:I love that. I think that's so helpful to just say that so explicitly, like, look at their eyes, be there. I think that that's, you know, we do this, like, you know, hey, let's see, whatever, so often, and then we're wondering why our kids aren't listening to us. And I think that's really a brilliant way to kind of really break it down. When a kid is, you know, you've set a boundary, and your spicy one doesn't like it, and they're having an intense tantrum or meltdown, what is the biggest mistake that parents tend to make, even with the best of intentions?

30:15Hunter Clark-Fields:Well, we think it's a, two things come to mind. One is interior, what we're doing with our own body, and one is exterior. So exteriorly, we start talking at them and trying to teach them in that moment and using logic. Like last night, I was coaching somebody whose kid was like, I don't want you to get on the parenting call. I want you to put me to bed. And she said, but daddy always puts, she went right into rationalization. Daddy always puts you to bed. And then I come in, I'm still going to come. You know, and often that is not, first of all, a lot of the spicy ones need to have some meltdowns.

30:53Hunter Clark-Fields:Like their body needs to do it as a way of like sensation seeking. So your rationalization is almost like, what's that?

31:00Mary Van Geffen:Release. Yeah. Like emotional release.

31:03Hunter Clark-Fields:Yes. Yes, and your rationalizations and your kind of stepping on eggshells and doing your dance so that they don't lose it, which, hey, I get it. We're all doing that with the spicy ones. But often we're like lengthening and delaying the time until they hit that wall of an actual limit. And we know this because there are times when there's an exterior limit, like from outside of us, like, oh, you have to wear the seatbelt. because you know that you could get pulled over. So you show up differently in your body when there is a limit that has no wiggle room in it. And the spicy one feels that. When you're not quite sure if this is an appropriate limit, you really need to stop and say, why am I setting this?

31:53Hunter Clark-Fields:Because if it's slightly irrational or not optimal, the spicy one's going to know that. And so let's ask less of them and really mean it when we do. But that's an aside. You're talking about they're melting down. We're not going to talk. There's nothing to say. We're going to immediately think about the mammal in front of us who is like, I think of like trapping a wild cat in an alley. They can't think and they think you're a threat. So check the mammal. This is where you would go internal. Check your own mammal. Make yourself friend because their brain is looking friend or foe, friend or foe, right?

32:37Hunter Clark-Fields:They can't think. So soften your eyes. Let your shoulders go down. Unclench. A lot of us are clenched like, oh, no, not this again. And all that resistance in our body can be read by another mammal as like predator, right? So find in your body that soft, expansive, just maybe open up your hands. Tell yourself, I have time for this. Because a lot of these big feelings and the conflicts and the power struggles happen around transitions because we are time starved. We've got to get to this, then I've got to get to this, and there's all these implications if I'm late. And that feeling is just a big old clench.

33:19Hunter Clark-Fields:I'm like clenching my hands as I describe this, and my belly's clenched. So taking a moment to soften everything, to melt a little bit, to have radical acceptance for this happening, rather than, oh my gosh, I've got to stop this. That changes a lot. You don't really have any job during their meltdown. You're just supposed to be regulating by keeping yourself calm. So you might be saying, I was made for such a time as this. They're just having big feelings and so am I. We're all doing the best we can. You're not saying any of this out loud. You are saying it to yourself and settling the little person within you who's also having a tantrum of like, why don't I have enough power to get this kid out the door?

34:03Hunter Clark-Fields:Right? So you're settling her and you're lowering customer service levels so that you like who you were in that meltdown. Mm-hmm.

34:14Mary Van Geffen:Mm-hmm.

34:18Mary Van Geffen:Stay tuned for more Mindful Mama podcasts right after this break.

34:44Hunter Clark-Fields:Your cabana's ready. Would you like fresh towels?

34:46Mary Van Geffen:It matters where you stay. Book now at Hilton.com. Hilton, for this day.

34:57Hunter Clark-Fields:You've been through a lot of meltdowns yourself. What do you think?

35:00Mary Van Geffen:Yeah, no, I agree completely. And I agree that sometimes, I agree completely with everything you said. One of my favorite mantras is, this is not an emergency, to just kind of talk directly to your nervous system. I also think that sometimes we need to have permission to like remove ourselves a little if we're not, you know, if we're on the train to losing it. And that can be like even just walking. I'll be right back, walking away four feet and then just maybe shaking it out, you know, shaking out your hands, longer exhales. some of those physical body hacks to when your own body is in fight, flight, or freeze to like put yourself into that rest and relax response.

35:44Mary Van Geffen:But yeah, exactly. Your kid needs you to be the calm mountain and borrow some of that calm, right? When they're feeling chaotic and they need you to be really steady. And that's hard. That was super hard for me. Like that was like the biggest change in me to go from somebody who had like a really intense temper and just snap and just because I feel things so intensely to like be able to practice that restraint when in my body it felt intolerable to then okay well what do I do it feels intolerable and I would have been yelling. And what do I do and said, okay, I got to do these longer exhales. I got to shake my hands.

36:32Mary Van Geffen:I got to tell myself this isn't an emergency. And I had to, you know, and for me, of course, a mindfulness practice kind of daily, really, really helped and made a difference with that because that is kind of what you do when you practice mindfulness daily as you sit and your body is like, oh, go move, go do things, do all these things, act. And you're like, okay, no, I'm not acting until this bell rings. And so you get this practice of just sitting with what is without reacting.

37:02Hunter Clark-Fields:Yes. And thank you for bringing up the movement. I have a whole chapter on how to move and treat the body when your child is losing it. Because unlike meditation, you don't have to sit still, to your point. You can go put your body in the embryo position. You can do some vooing where you're making a sound that's helping your vagus nerve while your kid won't even notice that. There are many things you can do to make it more tolerable. I just learned about the physiological sigh. Have you heard of this? You take one inhale through the nose and then you take a second quick inhale and then you exhale with a sigh.

37:48Hunter Clark-Fields:And that is actually what people who are feeling claustrophobic naturally do to exhale CO2 and basically release a lot of the tension in the body. And that's just a little thing you can do. But for a lot of my clients, it's like moving their body in a way like maybe my kid is melting down and I skip to the kitchen. And it's not me being disrespectful. It's not me minimizing that they're upset. it's wow my body's going to need to get rid of some of this nervous tension. I can either do it through the deliciousness of screaming because it does feel amazing to scream. Can we just nod on that one?

38:29Hunter Clark-Fields:Or I can find other ways that my body completes the stress circuit and moves and metabolizes anger and maybe rage that really isn't about your kid, right? Rage is always about when you felt small and out of control and when you were little and now your body is like never again and it sort of fights your child. So yes, movement, so important.

38:55Mary Van Geffen:What about when our kid becomes aggressive or violent? What can parents do in those situations? I had a client whose kid you know, was gonna like, go out and threaten to take the car, you know, who is who is in, you know, pre adolescence. And, you know, of course, is very scary and triggering and aggressiveness becomes very scary and triggering, triggering violence becomes very scary and triggering what parents do in those situations.

39:29Hunter Clark-Fields:Well, I have a whole chapter called when things get violent, because most parenting books don't cover that. And I think some of it is like, we all think it's just only happening in our house, but it's very normal, not optimal, that some bodies lash out when they're upset. I think about my son. If I step on his foot, he is prone to like, what would you call this for your listeners?

39:57Mary Van Geffen:Shrug up your shoulders.

39:58Hunter Clark-Fields:Like shrugging up his shoulders and wincing and sort of turning inward and being like, ow, if I step on my daughter's feet, she is going to shove me and I would do the same. And it wouldn't be a thought if I need to hurt this person. It would be something, there would be no thought. It's not a choice. It's not a choice. So I do want to say, we need to remind ourselves that kids acting violently when upset is about impulse and impulse control. It's not a premeditated attack. And I think that really shifts something because we can get in this victim mindset of, I'm afraid of my kid. He hurts me.

40:37Hunter Clark-Fields:He's not sitting there thinking about how to hurt you. He doesn't want to be someone who hurts. So just remembering that it is not premeditated, I think is important. I'm kind of flipping through my book as I say this. The first thing is what we talked about, which is being the calmest person in the room, checking your own body, that you would underreact, that you would de-escalate. That might be enough for some families who begins shrieking and screaming when their kid ups the ante. But there's also, how do you want to frame this? What I like to say when I think about a child getting violent is find the most loving interpretation, because that will impact how you show up for it.

41:27Hunter Clark-Fields:Examples of that might be, this meltdown is an involuntary nervous system activation, which is very different from he hits me. Or this meltdown is an anxiety attack. This is a brain on fire. Or this meltdown is an uncontrollable emotional seizure. If you've ever had a kid that hits and then doesn't really remember it. I think it's just important to know that it's impulsive aggressive and we can set the stage for peace. So some of that is, and I always feel a little bit, I don't know what the word is, but I'm ambivalent about sharing this because I don't wanna minimize how hard it is, but you need to know self-defense.

42:12Hunter Clark-Fields:And that, I just wanna hold the listener's hand and say, I'm sorry that you are parenting in a parenting situation where you need to know self-defense, but you do. You need to feel confident in your own body that when somebody swings at you, you put your hand up and you protect your body. Because when you don't have any of those skills or when you are a victim of trauma from earlier in your life, you project a lot on this scenario and you escalate it. So we want to be people that notice, oh, my kid kicks when he's upset. So I might guard my groin area. I might move to the side. You know what they like to do, so figure out how you protect it.

42:54Hunter Clark-Fields:Maybe take a Parks and Rec self-defense class with them. Every spicy one does better when they take some form of martial arts and have that regulation that comes with it. But also setting the stage for peace would be move out all the things that can be used as weapons for a bit. While this kid's brain is developing, don't have the Yadro or the crystals or whatever this next generation, what would you say they collect that they have out that it's like, not that. Like we don't want to have those objects that hold so much power because when the spicy one's looking around and sees you look at that thing, it's the obvious thing to grab and throw.

43:36It's almost like it's a no-brainer.

43:39Hunter Clark-Fields:I also want you to de-escalate with your body, like we talked about before. Like, do you need to sit down on the ground? Does you sitting cross-legged help bring everything down? Or does it make you a target for being kicked in the face? Only you know that because you know kind of how your kid is. Or maybe for your kid, posture of standing tall over them feels looming and makes them want to hit. Whereas if you were eye level, it wouldn't. Maybe you need some nonverbal I come in peace gestures that kind of let them know like the palm facing them. I mean no harm. Maybe you need to speak from your deepest chest rumble.

44:20Hunter Clark-Fields:A lot of times we need to say, no, you may not. Here, here's an alternative. So what is the alternative? and they're not thinking in that moment, but doing some work outside of the meltdowns to have like a throw basket where everything in it is like things that feel delicious to throw, like stuffed animals or having egg cartons you can rip up together, do some controlled destruction. There are ways to work through so much anger in your body and so much dysregulation that don't hurt others, but sometimes your kid is going to hurt others And I guess I want to say I'm sorry about that. And also, like, most grow out of it.

45:07Hunter Clark-Fields:At least many of the clients, I've had 1 ,700 people, women, go through my mom's spicy ones. And it's a phase that we have to find our most unconditionally loving and also fiercest, strongest part of ourselves. Like it's calling us because it is really hard.

45:30Mary Van Geffen:Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think, thank you. I really appreciate you kind of going through that because I don't think we've ever had that conversation about kind of what to do if your kid is violent. And it's important. It's important to know if you're dealing with that kind of thing. So, I mean, there's a lot, so much we could talk about, but Mary Van Geffen's book is Parenting a Spicy One, a compassionate guide for raising a deep feeling and wonderfully strong welled kid. And it's out now wherever books are sold. I think and there's so much in here. If you have a spicy kid, definitely get this book.

46:14Mary Van Geffen:I highly recommend it. Thinking about the listener now who's like, okay, I'm taking this all in. Maybe I'm going to re-listen to this episode or whatever. If there's one thing a parent can do today to improve their relationship with their spicy one and kind of protect themselves from burnout, what would you suggest?

46:34Hunter Clark-Fields:I would suggest you focus on delighting over duty. Duty being like, well, it's my job as a parent, blah, blah, whatever, however you finish that sentence. Toni Morrison once described how when children entered the room, she would show them care by fussing over their appearance and she wanted to see if they'd buckled their trousers, if their hair was combed. But later in life, she realized that that's not what they needed. She said, you think your affection and your deep love is on display before or because you're caring for them, but it's not. When they see you anxious about their behavior, all they see is like your critical face.

47:15Hunter Clark-Fields:What's wrong now? So what she said, and I just have taken it so to heart, is when a kid walks in the room, does your face light up? Let your face speak what's in your heart. And for some of us, we've had a tough time with this kid, and we don't light up. We grimace, or we bear down, or we clench, or we're ready for battle. And the spicy one is looking to see if they brighten your spirit or depress you. So we want to actively delight in them. they want to delight you. And who else is going to delight in them? So that would be the one thing. Cultivating an unconditionally high positive regard for your kid is really a sacred duty, because growing up savored by at least one adult is like the closest thing to heaven.

48:03Hunter Clark-Fields:And so I would say work on that. Work on finding ways to delight in who they already are.

48:10Mary Van Geffen:I love that. That's such a beautiful place to end. Mary, thank you so much for the work you do. And thanks so much for coming on the Mindful Mama podcast to talk to us. I really, really appreciate it.

48:23Hunter Clark-Fields:It was a pleasure. Thank you for all the work you're doing for parents.

48:31Mary Van Geffen:Hey, I hope you liked this episode. I hope it will help you with your spicy kiddo. So, yeah, man, they challenge us. That's for sure. And if this podcast helped you, please help this podcast grow by subscribing, by sharing it with a friend, by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts. Those are great ways to help the podcast. We are just a wee little podcast in a world of celebrities doing all these podcasts. So we do need your help to keep going and we need your help to share it. So thank you. Thank you for everyone who, if you have shared, if you have left a review, really thank you. It means a lot.

49:14Mary Van Geffen:And I wish you a great week. We'll be back. This series continues. We'll be back next week and the week after with Parenting Challenging Kids series. So I will talk to you real soon. I wish you a beautiful week. Namaste.

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