The Mental Health Side of Motherhood - Dr. Kat

0:00Hunter Clarke-Fields:Hi, it's Hunter Clarke-Fields, author of Raising Good Humans. If you've ever thought, I wish I could help other parents the way I've been helped, this is for you. The Mindful Parenting Teacher Certification Program is now open for enrollment. You'll deepen your mindfulness, learn to lead powerful parenting groups, and join a supportive, heart-centered community. Are you ready to make a difference? I only take a very limited number of people into this program, so apply now. Visit mindfulparentingcourse.com slash teach. You're listening to the Mindful Mama podcast, and today we're talking about the mental health side of motherhood with Dr.

0:34Hunter Clarke-Fields:Kat.

0:38Hunter Clarke-Fields:Welcome to the Mindful Mama podcast. Here, it's about becoming a less irritable, more joyful parent. At Mindful Mama, we know that you cannot give what you do not have, and when you have calm and peace within, then you can give it to your children. I'm your host, Hunter Clark-Fields. I help smart, thoughtful parents stay calm so they can have strong, connected relationships with their children. I've been practicing mindfulness for over 25 years. I'm the creator of the Mindful Parenting course and teacher training, and I'm the author of the international bestseller, Raising Good Humans, Raising Good Humans Every Day, and the Raising Good Humans Guided Journal.

1:18Hunter Clarke-Fields:Hi, welcome back to the Mindful Mama podcast. I'm so glad you're here and a big welcome, of course, if you're new. And if you're a new mother, this might be a great episode for you if you know a new mother. I'm going to be talking to Dr. Kat, clinical psychologist certified in perinatal mental health, host of the Mom and Mind podcast and author of the Pregnancy Workbook. And we are going to be talking about matricence, being a new mom, mental health, loneliness, all these things that make things challenging as a new mom. So if you've been dealing with guilt or loneliness or just the complexity and the like isolation of motherhood, this is an important episode for you to listen to.

2:06Hunter Clarke-Fields:So join me at the table as I talk to Dr. Kat.

2:16Hunter Clarke-Fields:well dr kat thank you so much for coming on the mindful mama podcast thanks for having me i'm excited to chat today all right so we're going to talk about around the time when we have those babies not just uh we have we have some babies after we already have babies so it's it's not necessarily with your first-time parent, but what are some of the common myths and misunderstandings about postpartum mental health? Wow, yeah, it's a good question, and there are quite a few. There are so many that we are just kind of swimming around in all the time, and it kind of surprises people that they have some even kind of succumb to some of the myths, one of which is you're supposed to love pregnancy, that you're supposed to love postpartum, that you're supposed to love everything about it.

3:12It's a huge pressure that moms feel to be in love with the process and with all of the things they're feeling and experiencing. And I think it really does a disservice to the quite a huge range of feelings and experiences that people actually have, especially when, let's say, pregnancy is not going well, or that you're very sick, or postpartum is hard, or birth was difficult, to still feel the pressure that, okay, I'm supposed to be liking this, but I don't. And how do I reconcile that? And can I tell anybody that I don't like it? I mean, it just, all of the iterations of difficulty that come from trying to believe something that isn't the full picture is just so much pressure.

4:08Hunter Clarke-Fields:That's funny. Like, I can understand it for, I can understand that myth existing around for postpartum, but the whole pregnancy thing, I feel like there's a lot of like, we know how difficult and uncomfortable and miserable this could be, right? Like we know about all the throwing up and the bad sleep. It seems like so unfair that you can't sleep well, like right at the very end, which you're like, I'm just about to have a baby. Why can't I sleep through the night? I have to pee. Yeah, right? Yeah. I'm surprised that people, I don't know, I guess I'm surprised about that there's pressure to feel like I'm loving every minute for pregnancy itself.

4:48Oh, yeah. I mean, this whole idea of glowing during pregnancy. Oh, yeah, yeah. that's a big one and I think these kinds of things are just passed down like you've heard somebody say it before so you don't know what to say to somebody so you say it and I don't think we're really thinking about what what does that mean what does it mean to be glowing it means you're supposed to be happy and loving this and fulfilled and feel good and I mean just a lot of people don't. And so because they feel like they're supposed to love it, but they don't feel good, don't feel well, physically well, emotionally well, there's an additional pressure to fake happiness, which really contributes to feeling worse, honestly.

5:40When you're not really in line with the truth of how you're doing, it makes you feel worse.

5:45Hunter Clarke-Fields:so no fake it to make it i mean postpartum or pre pre prepartum sure yeah yeah no i mean i don't i don't think it necessarily works all the time sure if you're trying to just pop out of like a an occasional bad mood or you don't feel great but you want to enjoy what you're doing and want to push through it fine but when it is your every day it starts to really erode your your general well-being. I feel like postpartum depression anxiety has become such a normalized thing that now it's just one word. It's just postpartum. Postpartum doesn't, you could have postpartum giddiness and joy, but if you just say postpartum, people assume it's depression and anxiety now.

6:33Hunter Clarke-Fields:is how how widespread is it I mean I can remember having a bunch of anxiety but being so scared to call it anxiety I didn't even think the word anxiety I was just like wow this is really hard right right how common is it uh very common um anywhere in and around one in five to one in seven women birthing people will experience a perinatal mood or anxiety disorder. Postpartum depression specifically is one in five and one in seven. Anxiety is possibly more,

7:18but it's not talked about as much. Anxiety isn't talked about as much. Just when you're looking through what postpartum mental health issues, people are assuming depression first. Um, and are, some people are surprised to find that anxiety is pretty prevalent and really because there's a certain amount of, um, worry that comes along with being a new parent, it gets missed because people don't really know how to differentiate, uh, differentiate between what's in a normal worry. And when is it actually a clinical diagnosis? this and it's so much easier than to dismiss it. Of course, you're anxious.

8:03I hear these things. Of course, you're anxious. You just had a baby. Of course, you're tired. You just had a baby. And everything kind of gets lumped into that kind of minimizing of the experience. So it's hard to know, is this clinical or is it just this new mom stuff?

8:20Hunter Clarke-Fields:Well, I guess people probably don't want to make an anxious person more anxious by assuming it's something clinical too. I could, I could imagine sort of that. And there's like going to be a huge spectrum of experiences. What are, what are things moms can do to, I don't know, are there, is there anything they can do to prevent it, to, to think about, I mean, what do, how do you work with this? Yeah, for sure. I personally and within the field often suggested people to get into therapy during pregnancy or even before. Because if there is a history of anxiety, people are more likely to experience it in pregnancy and postpartum, like have a reoccurrence of anxiety.

9:10or if some people don't even register that they're dealing with anxiety because that's just how they've felt their whole life and then are very surprised by how much more anxious they feel in postpartum. And there are a lot of reasons to feel worried because everything's new and you're trying to figure a lot of stuff out.

9:32Hunter Clarke-Fields:Your life has been turned upside down and you're not getting enough sleep and you're miserable. and there's all, but your days are surrounded by poop. Right, exactly. And worry about poop. Yeah. Yeah, so there, preventative measures are like thinking through your own personal history. Do you have any history of depression or anxiety that would make you more prone to having it during pregnancy or postpartum? Do you have any other risk factors? Like, are you sensitive to hormone changes? Like during your period, during your premenstrual phase, are you more likely to have emotional challenges, upheavals, difficulties?

10:17If so, then you might also be more likely to experience them during pregnancy and postpartum. But getting into therapy beforehand to try and manage, get tools and skills so that you can have them for pregnancy and postpartum is one definitely good way to go about that. But you can enter into therapy at any time. If you can afford it. I mean, obviously, I'm a therapist. Yes, if you can afford it.

10:48Hunter Clarke-Fields:I mean, if they're available and you can afford it, that's not—for most people, therapy is—I mean, for a lot of people, even very middle-class people, that's an expense above and beyond that— For sure. You know, if you're trying to buy a house or you're trying to save for college or all of those things. You're like, wait, we're going to spend$300 a week on this, and that's$1 ,200 a month, and that's, you know. It's a lot. That's a lot. Yeah. Finding therapists who take your insurance, finding lower rate insurances. I mean, there's a lot of companies that are doing insurance, making it more affordable for people, so those are options.

11:26But you're right, it can be a challenge to commit the finances to and also the time once a week or once every other week. And you got to weigh that out with like what could be the benefit and the risk reduction in getting that help and support. And of course, that's an individual decision, but it is available for people. And there are trained professional people like me who are trained in perinatal mental health or certified in perinatal mental health who specifically work with this population of folks and who really get it.

12:11Hunter Clarke-Fields:Stay tuned for more Mindful Mama podcasts right after this break. We are supported by MomCozy, and they are now introducing their Night Pro Bottle Warmer and the Deep Clean Bottle Washer D8. And if you're in the infant stage or know someone who is, you have to check these out. The Night Pro Bottle Warmer is an electric water bath system built for night feedings. It has a see-through tank that you can check the water levels instantly without measuring any cups and has this lovely glow, this sort of soft night light so you're not going to wake your baby up with bright lights. It's obviously built by people who really understand the exhaustion and of night feedings.

12:56Hunter Clarke-Fields:Oh my gosh. And it warms fast. It heats four ounces of milk in about three minutes. Plus it recalls your previous volume and bottle settings. So you can just use it really quickly. And if you're in the infant stage or have a friend who is, you know the horror of the mountain of bottle and bottle parts that are waiting for you in the sink. and we don't want to face that. We just want to take that stress away. That is why there is the Deep Clean Baby Bottle Washer D8. This is really a premium all-in-one bottle washer. It can wash, it can steam, sterilize, dry, and store bottles and accessories. And it supports up to eight at a time.

13:35Hunter Clarke-Fields:What sets the D8 apart from anything else on the market are the Target Wash, which blasts water directly into those nightmare blind spots like straws and nipples and Pump 360, which rotates the water streams to completely clean the tricky curves of breast pump flanges. You have so much to do. You need to stop spending your nights hovering over the sink. Instead, you can let the Mom Cozy D8 handle it all. If you're in the infant stage or know someone who is, you have to check these out. The Mom Cozy Night Pro Bottle Warmer or the Deep Clean Bottle Washer D8. They're offering 20 % off if you go to momcozy.com and use code mindfulmama for 20 % off.

14:16Hunter Clarke-Fields:That's momcozy.com and use the code mindfulmama. Okay, so for the mom who may be somewhere in that spectrum before clinical diagnosis, may not feel the need to like go to a therapist, Are there steps in general that moms can take to prevent getting subsumed by anxiety or depression and all of that in postpartum times? Yeah, for sure. There are preventative things like making sure you have people around you that you can talk to. It can even just be one person, that one person who you tell things to or who you feel slightly comfortable with talking to about harder things. I mean starting the conversation ahead of time even saying like I'm a little bit worried I could feel anxious after this baby comes in a way that you know might be hard for me to manage like can I check in with you about that so trying to have at least one person that you feel connected to that you don't feel like you have to hide things from who will listen and be supportive can be really helpful for many reasons, but one of which is that feeling anxious or depressed or anything is very isolating and can be isolating.

15:42And then when you feel isolated, you feel even worse. Taking that example from before, if you feel like you're supposed to be happy and you're not, or you feel like you're supposed to be calm and chill, but you don't feel that way, and you don't have anyone to talk to, you don't feel like you can talk to anyone, The amount of shame and embarrassment that can grow from that headspace is sort of, you know, it can be really big and can be debilitating. So having a support system in place, whether it's one people or 10 people, whatever your jam is, introverts usually prefer one or two, extroverts maybe a few more, but whatever feels most comfortable to you.

16:25The other thing is having some type of postpartum plan with your partner or whoever your support person is where you're looking ahead. and it's hard to know everything you're going to need before you know you need it. But if you already know, let's say that when postpartum comes, it's going to be hard for you to make food or get the housework done or get to get your other kid to a doctor's appointment or something like that, kind of go through a list of things that could be a little bit more challenging during that time and work with your partner or support people to get that workload spread out so that you don't have all of what you used to do plus all of the new things that you need to do with the baby and for yourself still on your shoulders completely.

17:23So sharing the responsibilities with other people can help reduce some of the stress that you might experience after the baby comes. So some of it is just community, having people that you can talk with and who can take some of the load off of you. Those are great things. Some other things can include, again, it might need to be negotiated with a partner, is having time where you're not on, where you don't have to be on, where you know that baby's safe, being taken care of, but you can do whatever it is that you need to do. This doesn't have to be some prescribed thing, but if you just need to sleep or if you want to go on a walk or if you want to, I don't know, get your nails done or read a book or whatever, your thing is to make sure that you have some kind of time available for yourself.

18:24And I'd say top number one priority for me from what I see is negotiating with your partner or support people about how you're going to get sleep. There's an assumption that you have a baby and you're going to be feeding them in some way and it's going to be all on your shoulders. And of course, you're going to be tired and you're not going to sleep. Well, not sleeping is such a huge risk factor for developing anxiety, depression, and any of the other perinatal mood disorders. So having a plan, or at least an acknowledgement that we're going to have to work this out so that I can sleep together.

19:05Yep. Negotiate this. This is like a temporary transitional type of agreement. We're going to be in a phase and in a process. And yes, your partner's going to need sleep too. So that can be part of the conversation. But really focusing on how to protect as much sleep time as possible.

19:28Hunter Clarke-Fields:Yeah, it's hard and it's challenging. And a lot of the ideas, I feel like all those sort of myths about motherhood really play into this. Yeah. That where, you know, there's the myth of the like sort of all giving mother martyr, you know, selfless mother. And that's so, I feel like that's really just, I've really come to believe that is just this thing that is kind of handed down from these patriarchal cultures where women were a resource to be used up. Right. And, and this idea of, of like kind of using up this resources, it's just crazy. and, and, And the whole idea of the sleep and things like that, and that can be really this very influenced by sort of the war between the people who say that sleep training is terrible and other people who say that that's something that can be very helpful for people who need sleep.

20:32Hunter Clarke-Fields:I mean, that whole thing is very, very challenging to negotiate. Do you see a lot of people falling into kind of more traditional roles, even if they had been pretty kind of egalitarian beforehand when they're having a baby? Yes. Yeah. Actually, I mean, I've had sessions with people recently in the last couple of weeks where this specific thing has come up. that, oh yeah, before baby came, he, or even before, at some point before, my partner would do dishes and do laundry and all of this stuff. And somewhere along the line, it shifted into mom doing most of the home stuff. And then there being an assumption that she's just going to take care of it.

21:20Some of that has to do with just the transition of what is happening in the home itself, that sometimes partner goes back to work and mom is home and just kind of naturally taking care of some things if she has the energy, bandwidth, whatever to do it, taking care of some stuff. And then it never gets renegotiated when the shift changes again. Let's say when she goes back to work or, you know, there's just not a renegotiation. It just stays into that pattern. Then there are some times where ways in which we grew up seep into the relationship in ways that are sneaky for us. Like maybe if you're a male who didn't want necessarily to take a traditional role or a female who didn't want to have a traditional role, sometimes having a kid brings up emotional stuff and brings up our stuff from our own childhood, what we learned as we were growing up.

22:26And there can be either an abrupt shift into traditional gender roles or like a slippery slope one. So there can be a couple different ways people fall into that.

22:38Hunter Clarke-Fields:But it's pretty common, I think, and especially if the man is sort of earning more money and the woman staying home because of that. And how do you encourage people to talk about that with their partners? Yeah, if, well, it would be great if it was, you know, people had an established way of communicating already in place where they were able to negotiate and renegotiate as things change in the relationship. That's my wish as a therapist. But, you know, that is not the case for a lot of folks. So sure, if they can afford some type of couples therapy to work through that, that's great. But more or less, if I'm just working by myself individually with the mom, I will ask if she wants the partner to come in to the session.

23:40And of course, mom is still my client and I'm not doing therapy with them as a couple, but it's more like a logistical. So things have changed. How's it going for you? How's it going for you? What needs to shift? How can we make this easier for everybody? So that there's a dialogue happening. um that's one way that i support people to do that sometimes partners aren't willing to come in

24:06Hunter Clarke-Fields:oh yeah i mean well those seems like seem like questions and maybe seem like a good way to approach it just on your own like things have changed things have shifted i'm noticing this and this is this working for you let's talk about this this is working for you and this is working for me right so that way it's not you know yeah you're you know you're this jerk and you're leaving you know you you know you're not using all these you messages it's like you're like let's let's take a step back and look at are things working for both of us and that would be and then an opportunity to just share those observations of this is a change and i'm not sure i like this change.

24:49Hunter Clarke-Fields:You know, that can be a way of going about it, I imagine. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, if partner's not willing to come in, those are the types of things that we talk about in session about like how to bring it up to your partner. Sometimes it's a sensitive subject or it's difficult to have those conversations. But if you can come from a place of like, hey, whoa, this big thing just happened and like a check-in, how are you doing with it? How am I doing with it? Like, how can we renegotiate this together? When you're coming from a perspective of like, my goal is to keep our relationship connected. And I'm like, we're doing this together.

25:32So let's figure it out together. It does feel and sound different than by the time people get to their resentment and it's been built up in their mind for months, years, however long, and they get to a point where they finally want to say something, it does come out in a really angry and resentful way. So as soon as possible, having those discussions, even beforehand during pregnancy, like things are probably going to change. I suggest for people to have check-ins as couples to just have regular sort of state of the union business discussions. How's it going? What needs to change? What's coming up this week?

26:14so that when it starts to feel like your sort of ship's passing in the night and one person is living life, taking care of baby primarily and the other person is living life doing other stuff, outside of the home, let's say, you at least have one place where you can come back together every week if that's what you need, every other week if that's better, where there's just an expected check-in. It doesn't have to be a huge emotional conversation. That doesn't have to be the time that you work out marital issues or partnership issues. It's just how's it going? What needs to shift?

26:54Hunter Clarke-Fields:Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. It seems like, you know, to plan it ahead of time is a great idea because you know that things are going to be crazy and you know that things are going to be upside down. women i think though a lot are struggling in silence whether it's with their frustration with their partner or whether it's with the anxiety or whether it's with feelings of depression all those different things what you know this is where that sort of like the good mom cultural narrative kind of comes into play right is this what is silencing women from being able to talk about it? Oh, for sure.