The Real Reason Siblings Fight (and How Parents Can Heal It) - Sarah Rosensweet

23:30Hunter Clarke-Fields:similar expectations in some ways but when things are different just let's acknowledge it let's say what it is I remember saying to my younger daughter you know I think she was frustrated that Maggie could do something like Jungle Jim or something and I'm like well honey she is three years older than you so I would have to remind her she's three years older than you so she can do a lot of things that you can't do yet and then I remember she was very frustrated with it when everybody would read and she'd be like I really want to be able to read too but yeah I mean, I think that makes a lot of sense.

24:12Hunter Clarke-Fields:It's interesting. It makes me think about there's in the Zen Buddhist tradition that we do a family mindfulness retreat on, they have a saying that says, may I be free of the inferiority complex? May I be free of the superiority complex? And may I be free of the equality complex? And I love that. I think it's so interesting because life is different for everybody. Life isn't fair, right? Like we can have, try for fairness, but yeah, everything is different for everybody all the time. Circumstances are always shifting and changing. And yeah, I think it's wonderful to just be able to say that to our kids.

24:54Hunter Clarke-Fields:I love that. I think just another common thing that parents do is they try to solve the kids' fights. and they try to be the judge and the jury. And I think the old way of solving sibling conflict would be the parent goes in and just says, okay, you're right and you're wrong and I don't want to hear anything more about it. And then I know I was raised with a bit more sort of the precursors to peaceful parenting and my parents really thought that my sister and I needed to learn to work things out ourselves. so they did not intervene at all in our fights um but what happens if you the reason we were fighting is because we didn't have conflict resolution skills right and um and you know i'm not throwing my parents under the bus like they they did the best they could with what they knew but what that would lead to was either i would give in because my sister was the more dominant sibling even though she was younger or one time they talk about this time where they could hear us fighting and they tell this is kind of a cute story and i think it's a little bit sad But they could hear us fighting.

25:59And then all of a sudden they heard my sister start screaming. And apparently I had bitten my sister. And they tell this story of like the day Sarah finally learned to stand up for herself. But I think of these like poor little kids who didn't really know how to work out their problems. And yeah, I got sick of giving in to my sister, but also violence isn't the answer. So that's often, you know, we don't want to go in and work out kids' problems for them because that doesn't teach them anything. And it also leads to resentment. And we can talk about more of that. That's a big way that the rivalry is created and reinforced.

26:32But we also don't want to leave them to work it out for themselves because they don't have the skills yet. So rather than being that judge and jury, and this is, I want to be clear that you can't be the judge and jury even if you're right. Like, even if you saw the thing that happened and you know what the right answer is, or if you're, you know, a lot of parents will be like, well, you know, I make sure I never favor one child over the other. So even if you're right, even if you're careful not to like choose one kid's side all the time, anytime you're choosing, you're reinforcing the rivalry because the person that you chose, we talked before about that fear of like who does mom or dad love more?

27:06The person that you chose is going to be like, ha, I won. You know, mom chose me. She loves me best. And the person that you didn't choose is like, I will get them. like they built in you know it'll be like another like they'll be looking for in the future where they can you know and I think kids almost do pick fights when there's a lot of rivalry they'll pick fights in front of us um do you have time for a funny story about that oh yeah okay so my my mother-in-law tells this story of she grew up in the 50s went home for lunch um you know and her mom would have like a hot lunch waiting for her and her two sisters when they would go home from elementary school.

27:43And apparently they would fight through the whole lunch, the three of them. And her mother, my husband's grandma Tecla, one day she left a note for the girls, left them the food on the table and left a note. I had to go out unexpectedly. And she hid in the broom closet to observe them. They didn't fight the entire time because she wasn't there. So I just love that story because sometimes the fights are really literally about who are you going to choose so we have to get out of the habit of being that judge and jury even if we think we have a good solution even if we think we're right even if we think we're being fair because it it doesn't do anything to teach the resolution skills and it also um just drives that rivalry yeah yeah they

28:30Hunter Clarke-Fields:need to we need to teach them how to do this how to work out problems on that on their own i mean so I couldn't agree more. I mean, I guess I would say I would want to think about the idea of being more like a coach, right? Like a coach of a team, you know, like listen to both sides. What do you think we should do? What do you think we should do? Bring them into the conflict resolution. Is that what you would say, Sarah? Yeah. I always say, think of yourself as the mediator, not the negotiator. Yeah. So you're literally like, you know, hey, hey, hey, hey, like hear the kids fighting, you know, like, you know, timeout, like, looks like you guys could use some help here.

29:08and then you can and I always recommend that parents talk to their kids beforehand about like what our new strategy is going to be because it's really hard to introduce something in the moment when tensions are high and people are upset so you know from now on what we're going to do is when you two are having a disagreement one person's going to get a chance to talk and tell you know their idea and their side of the story and then the other person's get a chance to talk and there's not going to be interrupting and you'll both get a chance and sometimes this takes you know as you said a lot of coaching, right?

29:37But you hear each person out and then you empathize. And also, you can't do this if they're still screaming and yelling at each other. So you might have to take a break, deescalate, calm down. We're going to revisit this in an hour. You can't really do any of this problem solving if people are totally hijacked. So, okay, wow. I hear a mirror back to each kid, you know, wow, that I, I hear this is what you're, what you think happened. And the other kid, this is what you think happened. Do I have that right? And then you kind of go, wow, that does sound like a problem. I can see why you two were fighting.

30:12And then the crucial part is, and you already mentioned this, who has an idea for what we could do, how we can fix this. And then you kind of keep taking ideas until both people can agree on something. And this is what I've seen is that kids can be really creative about how to solve a problem. And also that if you had suggested the exact same solution, they probably would say no, but it has to come from them. So that's what I find. And, you know, it does take time. You're probably not going to be able to do this every single time your kids have a disagreement, but as much as you can do it, it helps to build that problem solving.

30:52And I would hear my boys were so into Lego for a good 10, 15 years. And when they were negotiating, I would hear, how about this? Okay, well, how about that? And they would say back and forth to each other, how about you use this guy? And how about I use this guy? And they were negotiating how they could have a solution. And so that's what we want to give them those skills so that they can hear each other and then make suggestions and try to find a mutually agreeable solution. And the other thing that I think is hilarious is sometimes kids will be really quick to come to a solution because they know how long this takes.

31:30And so they're just like, right, even before you can start listening to the stories, they just want to get back to playing. So they're like, okay, okay, fine. You know, we'll do this. And then they, they've got a, they've got a solution.

31:44Hunter Clarke-Fields:Stay tuned for more Mindful Mama podcasts right after this break. As we get older and our kids get older, keeping up with the schedules can be so hard. My daughter Sora has been doing the tech for the play, Mamma Mia. There's a lot to do and we're busy and that's why I really love the Kozilla Calendar Plus 2. You get your calendars, your to-do lists, and your reminders all in one place and not in, yes, it's in your phone in your pocket, but it's on in a centralized place in your house. So it's a beautiful frame. It has a calendar sync to keep everybody's calendars up to date, real time, avoiding conflicts.

32:29Hunter Clarke-Fields:And we don't have to like crane our necks down and pull out these objects to check it. We can all do all the planning and we can do event creation all in one place together. It even has a reward system to encourage kids independence and meal planning. I mean, it's great. And it really supports kids who are developing independence. And you can have independence without having the, you know, device in your pocket. Kids with ADHD can benefit from structured routines. And you get this large display that is really easy to use. Seamless, easy, syncing. There's also flexible size options. Really a different way to do it, to make things simpler, to really reduce the mental load in the house, to manage schedules and encourage kids' responsibility and just coordinate family life so it is less stressful.

33:26Hunter Clarke-Fields:Go to kozilla.com and use the code HUNTER to get$30 off your first order at checkout. out. That's C-O-Z-Y-L-A dot com to get$30 off your first order with the promo code Hunter. I love this. And what you're describing makes so much sense. But I love this because, you know, one of the things I say is like when you as you practice and put in these skills early, if you do all the work to like kind of learn this new language, if this is a new language for your family in an effort to try to make these things happen early what you're describing is how it snowballs to be easier and easier as time goes on like parenting gets easier and easier because they've they're learning how to do it themselves you don't have to like if you're judge and jury you got to be judge and jury forever totally and the resentment builds and builds and it gets snowballs harder and harder and harder but this way of every collaborative problem solving it gets easier and easier as time goes on and then they could use it with their friends they can use Is it, you know, in the workplace?

34:32Like it's just, it's a skill we all need, right?

34:35Hunter Clarke-Fields:Yeah, your 21 and 25 year old roommates are probably using it about their kitchen. They do, they absolutely do. Okay, should parents force kids to share? We want our kids to share, but this can actually make sibling conflict worse, correct? Absolutely, yes, no forced sharing. The reason for that is because sharing, sharing creates resentment. So picture you like, you know, if you worked in an office and you went into the office one day and your coworker was like, Ooh, Hunter, I really like your earrings. Those are really pretty. Can I wear them? And you're like, no, that actually makes me feel a little weird.

35:14I don't really want to share my earrings with you. And then your boss overhears and says, Hunter at 12 today, you're going to take those earrings off and you're going to let your coworker wear them because you know, it's only fair. Like you can wear them half the time and then she can wear them half the time. Wow. How would that make you feel? Right?

35:31Hunter Clarke-Fields:Wow. Totally disrespected. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And resentful of you. Look at your coworker and be like - No autonomy. Yeah, and look at your coworker. Like, what the heck? Like, why do I have to share my earrings with you? Like, gee, thanks a lot. And maybe even the story I should have said that your coworker goes to your boss and says, Hunter won't let me wear her earrings, right? Maybe that should be in there too. And then your boss comes and says, you have to let her wear your earrings. So really, sharing is what sociologists call a pro-social behavior. And it happens more when it feels good.

36:03So if, let's say another example, I love to use this example. Say, Hunter, you're eating a cookie. And I'm looking at the cookie and I was like, that cookie looks really good. And you see me looking at the cookie and you break half of it off and give it to me. And I'm eating the cookie and I'm enjoying it. And you're feeling really good that I'm feeling good. and you're like, that feels really good to make Sarah happy by giving her half of my cookie. Versus you're eating a cookie. I'm looking at it. Some power figure walks up to us and looks at me wanting the cookie, looks at you and says, Hunter, give her half your cookie.

36:36And you're like, wait a minute. You have to give it to me. I would still be happy. I would still be enjoying the cookie, but you would no longer be feeling good about having given me the cookie because it wasn't your choice, right? You were forced to give me the cookie. So in that case, you still shared your cookie with me, but it doesn't make you want to share more. In fact, it might make you next time you have a cookie, you might be like eating it secretly so nobody can see it, right? Because you want to make sure nobody's going to take it away from you. So really giving kids autonomy over their own things.

37:08So what I always say, no forced sharing applies to anything that's theirs that they got for a present or they bought with their own money. They never have to share it if they don't want to. No matter how upset the other kid gets, it's theirs. They get just like with your earrings. You get to decide. It's not the same with office stapler. You've got to share the office stapler with your coworkers, but those earrings are yours and you don't have to let anybody else wear them if you don't want to.

37:36Hunter Clarke-Fields:How do you encourage sharing if you're not, if parents aren't enforcing sharing, right? Like these are something with things we want them to have the experience of. I do it and I see how much my sibling enjoys it and it feels good. So how do we encourage that kind of thing without forcing it? So kids generally don't hold on as quite as tightly to things if they're not being forced to for one thing. There still might be things that they never want to share. And I just actually think that's okay. Like, you know, your special Barbie or something like that, You don't want your four-year-old sister to use it.

38:13And I think that's totally fine. And at the same time, I do recognize that we do want our kids to be generous and to share. And I think modeling it is a great way to start, like, you know, sharing things of yours and then noticing, like, how, you know, good the other person feels out loud. And then, you know, without being, like, too syrupy, but you know what I mean? Like, sort of modeling, sharing. And then I also think that kids are naturally generous. and there will be times when your child does share and when you see that don't make a huge fanfare about it but just point out like oh my goodness your sister look how happy she is that you you know let her use your thing or gave her you some of your food or whatever and just like notice it you know so I think that and I think if especially parents who are I think parents who have always done this they don't generally find that their kids are unwilling to share but if you're just starting out doing this, if you have been doing forced sharing, it might take a while for you to see that your kid's natural generosity comes back.

39:13And I'm fairly certain that it will, but don't panic if like for six or eight months, they still are like unwilling to share anything. I think that's normal because they're probably just like, wait, is this, do they really mean this? Right. They still, they have to be able to feel comfortable that they actually have ownership over their things before they could start sharing them.

39:32Hunter Clarke-Fields:Yeah, they have that. It sounds a lot like, you know, apologizing, right? Like a forced apology makes us sort of resent having to do it. But, you know, we can encourage it by apologizing ourselves, by modeling it, by, you know, maybe pointing out like, you know, boy, it might make that person feel better if you say you're sorry, right? Like we can encourage it, but we don't want to force it. It's a similar thing. For sure. Yeah. so yeah yeah yeah okay good good um okay so we don't want to choose sides we don't want to force them to share we want to kind of understand that we want to really be reassuring of their love and um and having that special time i actually you know for the podcast i i talked to um adam smith and he was saying he has six kids.

40:33Hunter Clarke-Fields:Wow. He goes on dates with all of them. Everyone in the family gets some one-on-one time, and it's like, well, it's not every week, right? It's not every day, but it happens, and I think that's really a nice way to think about it, like having some one-on-one time with everybody in your family. I definitely think one-on-one time is great, and dates are lovely if you can make that happen and you have enough disposable income that you can do that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or it could be simple. Sure, it can be. It could just be going to the playground or whatever. But I also think just a few minutes, like I mentioned special time before, and of course the gold standard is 15 minutes a day with each child and each parent.

41:12And for some parents, that's just completely impossible. And I wouldn't be realistic about that. And I still would encourage you to try on the weekends. You know, if you have a two-parent, two-kid household that maybe for half an hour, one parent is with one kid and then you switch. And if you can find an hour in the weekend to do that, that's fantastic. but there's also other ways of making your child feel special and loved that you can, what we call in my community, we call it micro moments of connection, like finding those micro moments. So one of the ways is delighting in your child, looking at them when they come downstairs and smiling, showing that you're happy to see them and not just like, quick, let's come and get some breakfast, but just taking those little moments to show the love that you feel in your heart on your face.

42:03That's actually from the late author, Toni Morrison. She talks about that showing that delight in your child. So delighting in your child. And then also, there could be like, you walk by them and you give them a little squeeze on the shoulder if they like physical affection or someone says something funny and you wink at them or just finding these like little moments that throughout the day to inject some connection, that can go a long way, especially if it's getting one-on-one time is hard or infrequent.

42:32Hunter Clarke-Fields:It reminds me of, I mean, it always strikes me the similarities between these things, right? Like when talking to marriage family therapists and they talk about bids for connection, right? The Gottlieb's talked about that, like the idea of that when with our partners, you know, if we're married or we're in a long-term relationship, you know, and you want to, you can count these bids for connection, the points where you make eye contact. And these are micro moments of connection. Like we want these with our, our life partners and romantic partners. And we want these with our kids, right? We want these and all the relationships that are most important to us and our friendships, all of these things.

43:14Hunter Clarke-Fields:Yeah. Whenever I teach about delighting in your child, I always say this works really well for partners too. Because, you know, often we forget, you know, our partner comes in and we're like, oh, I'm glad you're home. I've got to run out to take the kids to soccer or whatever. But just like take that extra minute and just like let them know that you're glad to see them. Yeah, that's true. I mean, when my kids came home, I remember learning to say like, oh, like, I'm so happy to see you and saying that. And that would remind me that, yes, I am so happy to see them, you know, but that's actually not something I say to my husband.

43:45Well, I mean, I think it's a good place to start. Like, you know, just going through the motions does actually get you going.

43:52Hunter Clarke-Fields:Okay. Do you have any advice for parents whose kids are like in it where they're there? I mean, they are fighting a lot right now. And it seems to be a pattern that's been happening maybe for a couple of years. Where do parents, when you're in that kind of, you know, downward dynamic, where do parents start? Well, I think everything we've talked about is really changing your sharing rules, getting the one-on-one time, shifting how you're intervening in disagreements. One thing that I see a lot is that often parents will have unconsciously labeled one kid the bad kid, right? Right. I've even heard parents call it like, oh, my older child bullies his younger brother.

44:37Like really, you know, strong language around that. So that is something that I see at the bottom of a lot of rivalry. Right. That kids have taken on these roles in the family of there's one kid that's like the good kid and one kid that's the bad kid. And really starting to see that everyone's doing the best they can and that the kid who's, quote, bullying their child, they're really actually, you know, you mentioned bids for connection. And they're making bids to see like, will they choose me? Like, do they love me? Even a kid can do something like, it seems so obviously counterproductive to us, like pick a fight right in front of you with their sibling, but still hoping that you're going to choose them.

45:15So I think really, if you have kids that have been fighting for a while, do some like investigation into your unconscious and think, do I, and then, you know, and then what happens I think is that it reinforces how we see the interactions. if we see one kid as the good one and one kid as the bully, right? But really trying to break those habits and recognize that both of them are fundamentally good kids and that they just need your help and that taking a little responsibility that it may have been things that you unwittingly have done that have exacerbated their poor relationship. So really just trying to see it, give everyone a clean slate, I think is what I'm saying and your mindset too and not seeing one as the instigator and one as the victim can really help.

46:02And again, that repair piece that we started off talking about of really trying to open the door to their feelings. And I have parents, when I say that, they're like, my kid already says you love my brother more. I'm like, yeah, that's how they feel, right? Like that's why they're acting like this because they really feel you love them more than you love me. So, you know, really just starting where you are. And I do sometimes in more extreme cases, I'll say like reduce the amount of time that they're together, especially if they're together unsupervised. Because you want to be able to be there before things really blow up.

46:43So it sounds awful, but like kind of keep them apart if you can't be there to help them as things come up. And just as a temporary thing. Yeah.

46:53Hunter Clarke-Fields:Okay. Yeah. Yeah. It takes some. Yeah. Rewind this episode. Start from the beginning and listen to all of those things. Yeah, I think it is really hopeful. You know, I remember thinking like, oh, you know, we just fight with each other, but, you know, all siblings fight with each other. And that's true, but they can also be friends. I think I've seen that a lot more in this upcoming generation that like siblings can actually get along and be friends. And I was kind of surprised at it. Like I was like, oh, my daughters are like, I love it. And I'm also a little like, oh, if they feel loved, they feel appreciated, they feel heard, they know how to work out problems, you know, and we can do those things.

47:42Hunter Clarke-Fields:yeah and they can be friends with each other it's it's it's hopeful i think and then hearing about your kids it's really hopeful i think too yeah it's super lovely like my and my daughter she's friends with her brothers too like my husband and i we do a lot of like going to like out of town for like music and things like that and we'll leave her alone on the weekend occasionally and she'll go over to her big brother's house and you know play guitar they'll hang out and play guitar and And, you know, they're actually friends too. The three of them actually this summer were on a softball team together, which I just thought was lovely.

48:15But they wouldn't let us come to games because they were already the youngest people on the team and they didn't want their parents coming to the games.

48:23Hunter Clarke-Fields:Oh, man, that must have killed you. I would have really wanted to go to a game. It was pretty cute, though. Oh, that's great. Okay. I love this, Sarah. This is all really, really great advice. do me a favor and shout out your wonderful podcast you can hear me on it yes sometime in the near past or in the near future depending on when this is released yeah so the peaceful parenting podcast wherever you get podcasts and hunter was a wonderful guest on the podcast and we do a mix of guest guest interviews and also solo uh solo shows so check it out wherever you get your wherever you get your podcasts well thank you so much for your time or for talking about siblings today i I know it's such an important topic and people need, you know, are always wanting help with them.

49:10Hunter Clarke-Fields:I really appreciate you sharing your time, your wisdom, your expertise and doing all you do. Thank you so much, Sarah. Thank you for having me. I love talking about this stuff.

49:25Hunter Clarke-Fields:Hey, I hope you enjoyed this episode. I think this kind of conversation about siblings is so important because it makes such a big difference in our everyday life. If you are dying for more episodes about siblings, check out episode 536 called How to Cultivate Great Sibling Relationships with Jonathan Caspi. So keep going on your sibling journey with Jonathan Caspi. That's a really, really great episode too. Very eye-opening for me. So yes, and if you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend, share it on social media. We're just a teeny podcast in the world of all those big podcasts, and we need your help to run the podcast and grow and all of those things.

50:14Hunter Clarke-Fields:So thank you. If you can share it with a friend or share it on social media, that makes a huge difference. I hugely appreciate it. and just to let you know what's happening in my life you might see some more awesome re-listens on the podcast because I am doing some focus on a new writing project so I'm very excited about that I will let you know more about it later and in the meantime I hope you have a peaceful week or at least moments of peace and I hope you take some moments to just take some margin and some space in your day to just breathe and zone out and, you know, enjoy spring coming up if that's what's happening for you.

51:01Hunter Clarke-Fields:Yeah, let's, let's not let's fight that societal pressure to just constantly be going and doing and going and doing and buying. Yeah, and just experience this life right here and now for all it's all is good and bad i will be practicing that too and i thank you so much for being here and listening wishing you an awesome week take care my friend namaste