The Truth About Executive Function: Supporting Neurodiverse Kids to Thrive - Seth Perler

0:00You're listening to the Mindful Mama podcast episode number 572. Today we are talking about The Truth About Executive Function and Supporting Neurodiverse Kids to Thrive with Seth Perler.

0:14Welcome to the Mindful Mama podcast. Here it's about becoming a less irritable, more joyful parent. At Mindful Mama, we know that you cannot give what you do not have, and when you have calm and peace within, then you can give it to your children. I'm your host, Hunter Clark-Fields. I help smart, thoughtful parents stay calm so they can have strong, connected relationships with their children. I've been practicing mindfulness for over 25 years. I'm the creator of the Mindful Parenting course and teacher training, and I'm the author of the international bestseller Raising Good Humans, Raising Good Humans Every Day, and the Raising Good Humans Guided Journal.

0:53If you have a neurodiverse kid, today's episode is for you. Welcome, welcome back to the podcast or welcome back, welcome or welcome back. Anyway, this is a great episode. I'm going to be talking to Seth Perler, a former teacher turned executive function, ADHD and neurodiversity activist, speaker, coach and advocate. He is dedicated to helping struggling students learn to navigate school and life. And he is coming back to the podcast to talk about neurodiversity and executive function. And you're going to hear some real practical strategies for supporting children's growth, managing homework and routines, and creating environments where kids can thrive despite their challenges.

1:40So join me at the table as I talk to Seth Perler.

1:48If you're a nurse or future nurse, you know how challenging and rewarding this career can be. Hi there, I'm Nurse Mo, creator of the Straight A Nursing Podcast. I'd love for you to join me every Thursday as I teach nursing concepts and share tips to help you succeed in school and at the bedside. Each episode breaks down often complex information so it's easy to understand. so you can feel more confident whether you're taking an exam or taking care of patients. So subscribe to the Straighten Nursing Podcast, and I'll see you on Thursday. Dun, dun, dun. Hey, Seth. Thank you for coming back to the Mindful Mama podcast.

2:30So good to see you again, Hunter. I'm glad you're here. I love the work that you do with ADHD kids and neurodiverse kids. and I know you've worked with a lot of families around executive function. I was wondering, what are some of the biggest myths that you see parents believing in their neurodiverse kids? Well, if we're talking about, there's so many directions we could go with this, but let's start with this. If we're talking about neurodivergent kids with executive function challenges, one of the biggest myths is the myth about the can't and the won't. So basically that The myth that their child won't do something that they're being willful or defiant or just not trying hard enough or just need to work harder or just need to pay attention or these sorts of things that are based on a belief that it is a won't.

3:24They won't apply themselves. They won't do the thing. And so if that's the myth and the reality is that they can't do the thing, that they don't have the executive function skill sets to do the thing that they're being asked to in the moment, in the context of the moment that they are in at the time, well, then we are going to intervene and our efforts to support our kid are going to look very different if it's a can't or a won't. and if it is a can't we're going to be much more empathetic much more compassionate much more understanding much more um much better listeners much more connected much more present much less judgy and if it's a won't then we often revert to old traditional interventions that don't work like shame and blame like punishments and rewards like uh lecturing and nagging and pushing and prodding and enabling and this, that, and the other, but things that ultimately are not empowering them to build skills.

4:33So that's one of the biggest myths right there. You know, that's funny because like the mindset of can't or won't obviously is so important there, but like the effectiveness of the parenting doesn't change in either way. Even if it was like I won't. Like, then you still, like, there's something going on. You still want to be, like, empathetic and teaching and nonjudgmental, right? Like, that would be much more effective. Even if it were, I won't. It's so funny. Yes, it would be. But it's so, like, deep in us, meaning, like, we've grown up with so many of those myths that we've internalized them and we believe them.

5:19And I think that part of the reason for that is that people who have exceptional executive function, they seem to be more motivated. I mean, it's probably different feeling when somebody with great executive function, for example, they accomplish something, they feel like, oh my gosh, I'm so glad that's done. They feel a sense of accomplishment, blah, blah, blah. for a lot of us with executive function challenges, like we aren't motivated to check the thing off the list. It's like, I want to avoid it as long as I can. And then when it's done, it's not like a big relief. It's just like, okay, this stupid thing's done.

6:02You know, like it is literally a different experience. So I think that when we see people who have such good executive function, then it perpetuates the fallacy. It makes it seem like, oh, they just care more. They're just working harder. They're just more motivated, blah, blah, blah. One of the challenges, though, there, I think with a lot of people with exceptional executive function is... Which we should define, by the way, I realize. We probably should. Next step is, let's do that. Just kidding, we'll get to that. but with people with really good executive function people who are really good at let's say getting things done executive function has to do with how the brain helps us to get things done and where really everybody has it but where it really matters with these kids is when they're not getting done the important things that they need to get done in order to build life skills that are going to benefit them to have a good education and be able to have a life filled with choices and possibilities and freedom and opportunities.

7:18Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I can even see that in, you know, we don't have anyone with ADHD or neurodiversity in my family, but there's obviously a lot of diversity in how we are. And I can see my husband has this, like, incredible executive function. function. Like his prefrontal cortex is ridiculous. And I can also see that in my oldest daughter. And then myself and my other daughter, we're like, we're just a little more like, you know, we're not necessarily attentive to every single detail in the same way. Like I've been done, I've done a, you know, this personality test that showed that, you know, my administrative skills are like rock bottom terribly bad like really horrible and and it's just interesting to see how easy it is and yet and the world rewards that so quickly and easily you know it's so celebrated well that gets into another myth that i was i where i was headed to and that is that i hope we've given i'll give more of a definition later yeah yeah but is that somebody with really good executive function, like assuming that because they're really good at organizing and time management and planning and getting things done, it's then assuming that the things that they are doing are the worthwhile things to do.

8:43So oftentimes people with really strong executive function, they're very motivated by getting things done, but they're often afraid to question things and they're often compliant And they often, not always, but they often pay for it way into adulthood when they start realizing, hey, I have thoughts of my own and they are not these. I don't want to be compliant to this. I don't agree with this. This is not ethical or this is not an integrity for me. Whoa, that is messing with my mind because I've been thinking my whole life, you know. So that is also a myth, like just to think because somebody is good at doing the thing and they're really good, let's say, at their job.

9:23and then 17 years into their job, they get laid off and the rug's totally been pulled out from under them. And they're really good at that structure and everything. But now with this lack of it, it's like complete meltdown. And I'm generalizing. This is not everybody at all. I also have a super random thought I wanted to share. Please share. I love it. Because I was thinking about it today. And it's ironic what you said about the, I think you said your family is not necessarily neurodivergent. There's no one that has a label or whatever, a diagnosis. Okay. I was thinking today about this. I was working on YouTube topics that I want to do the next couple months.

10:06But I was wanting to do one about kudos to the neurodivergent people. There's so much talk about neurodivergence nowadays, and this is great that people start to be noticed that their differences are awesome. We need to embrace that and play to people's strengths, et cetera, et cetera. But also, neurotypical people are freaking awesome people. It's almost like it's bad to be neurotypical. It is not. That is awesome. And it goes into this topic of asynchrony in the gifted world. I won't get into that. We all have variations. but there's more or less typical, let's say, and there's very atypical.

10:50So anyhow, I was just thinking of doing content around that. It's like everybody is so important on this planet and everybody has their own really unique strengths and things to offer the world and gifts to give.

11:10Stay tuned for more Mindful Mama podcasts right after this break.

11:18actually this is that's interesting too because they were someone is talking about i thought this is so interesting the idea that like welcome to hunter clark field's random topic of the year no that um you know because everybody is like so you know we're we're labeling ourselves and that's really helpful in a lot of ways like oh i have 80 g blah blah i have this and that that can be really helpful but someone was mentioning like sort of back in the day it would be like so-and-so's really quirky they have this funky thing about them that they always do xyz and we just were like we celebrated people's quirkiness in a way that it wasn't medicalized it was kind of like this is my quirky friend who has this quirky habit and and just like this uh more of a I don't know, like acceptance of all of our differences without, you know, and seeing the humor in it and just rather than it being sort of, I don't know, diagnosed, labeled, medicalized, and whatever, you know, it was just kind of an interesting observation.

12:29I thought, oh, yeah, you know, I always had these strange, quirky people in my life because I grew up with a dad who's an artist and you know and so I knew a ton of those people I don't know yeah we're we're definitely diverging from neurodivergence yeah but yeah probably some of them would be neurodivergent I mean I don't know I mean speaking of the idea of like neurodivergence versus neurotypical like what do you can you break down how for people who are saying oh okay my kid is showing some of these traits. Maybe people are saying, my kid should be tested, my kid has trouble getting things done.

13:13And for the people who haven't heard, the first episode is Seth and other, episode 386, we talk about how Seth, this was something that you struggled with yourself. And this is one of the reasons, and still do, is why you are doing all this work to help these kids. But can you break down how the executive function challenges might show up differently for neurodiverse kids versus neurotypical kids? Yeah. First of all, I would argue, and other people might see it differently, that by definition, most neurotypical kids have good enough executive function. So for lack of a better term, it's literally just the term good enough executive function.

13:56It's good enough. It may be problematic sometimes, but it's not a problem that is interfering with their life on a regular basis. Whereas when you have somebody with what I would call legitimate executive function challenges, a lot of times I'll say legitimate executive function challenges. What that means is that whether it's from a brain injury, whether it's from trauma, whether it's ADHD, whether there's some other diagnosis, for whatever reason, there are very legitimate challenges where a parent or a teacher is really concerned about this kid and their ability relative to their peers, their same age peers, relative to their same age peers, that they really are struggling in a different way than their peers are.

14:48That is, you know, you can't necessarily measure that on a test. Maybe you can, but that is really, to me, a gut feeling thing. And you kind of know when you know, like, wow, like I'm concerned and I'm not just being overly concerned. Like compared to their same age peers, they are not in the same place. There's a delay there. That's going to take some figuring out because I can imagine from the parent's point of view. You're like, I don't want to be overly, you know, am I projecting this? Is it just my worry? Is it my parental worry? Like, am I creating this, right? I mean, I imagine that's a big fear.

15:28That is true too. Like, you definitely want to not, okay, so there's the gut check. Let's say the gut check is first. Then after the gut check, I'm making this stuff up, Hunter, as we're talking here. But after the gut check then is the reality check. And that means checking in with your friends, with professionals, with other people, with chat GPT, which by the way, is not always right. I'm sure everybody knows that, but just to put that out there, but checking with your resources and checking with doing a reality check then. So if the gut check is like, oh my gosh, I'm terrified. Well then do the reality check next, because sometimes we can be, you know, over worried and over the concern.

16:10And we can talk to some people who really get it. You know, if you're talking to an experienced teacher, for example, who's worked with hundreds of kids and they tell you, your kiddo is where they're supposed to be. Yes, they may be struggling with things here and there, but this is not something that I'm super concerned about. Well, you can probably take their word for it. I would still do your due diligence and ask a few more people. But sometimes, Hunter, we can ask so many people that we just end up confusing ourselves more and more, you know. But it is something to definitely look into. And then if you're really concerned, then keep investigating.

16:48Don't give up. And if you got some relief from that, that's fine too. I do want to say that we live in a time when there is so much vying for our kids' attention, unlike any time before, that things that seem like legitimate executive function challenges can be very skewed by just the amount of, you know, how overscheduled kids are and how many things they're supposed to be responsible for. Like, doing homework is enough. On top of that, they have to be checking portals on a regular basis and this, that, and the, I mean, it's just, it's different. The expectation is different. I have a question.

17:28Like, if you're a parent, like, you're having these questions, you're having a gut check, you're doing a reality check, might one of the steps for helping executive function, which is like being able to sort of get the things done in the world that you need to get done and et cetera, might one of the steps in that be, I'm thinking of like simplicity parenting, like Kim Payne and his whole regime of like simplifying kids' lives. So simplifying screens, simplifying schedules, making it so there's less, you know, if you've a kid who's doing TikTok or something like that. So there's less things that are pulling the attention away constantly and fragmenting it.

18:14Might that be part of the process? In my very strong opinion, 100%. Less is more. What is this life about, Hunter? It's about our felt experiences. Well, what are the most important experiences life? Well, connection with other human beings that we care about, acts of service and doing work and doing things that matter and that are purposeful and meaningful to us, challenging ourselves. Like what are the most important things? Well, how, you know, I'm dealing with something Hunter and I were talking in the pre-interview. You know, I just had my seventh summit and I am like, it is coming off of running an event like that is I'm so like burnout and exhausted by the end of it.

19:03I love it. But all I, and now I'm just like playing. I had a physical medical type challenge this year too. And like, it is so hard to quote, get caught up. And there's research talking about subtraction. Like we think that productivity is about like adding things to our lives or we're like, we always want to add, but like subtraction, subtraction. and I'm pretty minimalist myself. I do have like my obsession with my guitars and stuff, and I'm cool with that. But in other areas, like I met someone many years ago who said something I will never forget. And that was the more stuff we have, the more stuff we have to manage.

19:47Well, now that was like before the digital age. Now it's like the more stuff in digital stuff we have, the more stuff we have to manage. So yes, to me, yes, subtracting and really saying, what are the most important experiences I want my child to have? And seeing how you can really simplify. Now, on the other hand, I also talk about exposure in terms of I want kids to have very rich exposure and enrichment activities and be exposed to lots of different courses, lots of different learning opportunities, lots of different experiences, lots of different sports, lots of different instruments, lots of different things.

20:24And to really have experiences and lots of that may sound like it's contradictory to what I'm saying, but it is not. It is not contrary. I mean, I'm imagining like if I'm an ADHD kid or I'm a neurodivergent kid and I feel different, I have trouble getting things done in the world. If I can find the thing that I actually am like super into and maybe I'm good at, right? Like that's going to be a lifeline. Is that why? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Now, in terms of that, they also still need to be able to do things they don't want to do. So, right. So now where's the person with great executive function? That's not a problem.

21:06They will do those things and get them checked off the list. but the kid that they want, for example, I was just talking to a senior in high school the other day who wants a driver's license but doesn't have a driver's license. This is a more and more common story I've heard over the years where kids get into college, they still don't have a driver's license, they want it, but they don't have the executive function to overcome the resistance to pulling it all together, to making the appointment, going to the classes, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So you want the outcome, the license, but to get it, you have to do things you don't want to do.

21:43For me to have my own business and do what I want to do professionally and stuff, I have to do a lot of things I despise doing. Email is the main of my existence. They just, the harder I make it for people to email me, the more emails I get. I want to kill my Facebook. I want to kill my Instagram. I want to kill my everything. Like, I don't like it. And all I do in my mind is I'm sort of like, I think of retirement down the line in terms of how can I get rid of all this crap? That's a goal of mine. I really don't like it. I don't like a lot of those things ethically, like Instagram and Facebook, and now they've impacted kids and families and stuff like that.

22:27But back to the point, I do think kids are oversaturated. And asking that one fundamental question, what experiences do I value? Do we value as a family that we want our child to have? And are these things moving towards that? And one of the most common, there's probably four or five big, giant, giant like college tips that I have. And one of them is drop a class. Like I want college freshmen to make their amazing schedule. And then before school even starts, drop one of those classes and then go, if they have executive fucking challenges, I'm saying. If they have those challenges, I've just seen the pattern so much.

23:09And then, you know, but that one class, if you imagine that getting important things done is really hard, then dropping that one class, the space that that frees up to ease into getting used to the massive change if they're going to college, that massive change, that space of one class is a lot at that transition in life. But same thing with, you know, juniors and seniors. A lot of times that's what I want them to do. Drop a class. Why are you doing this? Well, cause my counselor said I had your blah, blah, blah. I really, really, really question those things very hard because that rolls off the tongue for kids because I think they're so indoctrinated in thinking they have to do these things.

23:53And I would say 80 % of the time when we get really down to it with communicating with the school, we find out that that is not true. They can't drop the class. And if that's the case, I want them to drop it as soon as possible. And here's how I put it. And I started, I don't know that we are digressing, but I want to give people something to think about that you can also apply to other things. But think about this. You have 180 days in a school year. You got a junior who's really struggling with all their classes. They're failing three or four of them, let's say. and we find out that they in fact don't need a class and can drop it.

24:29And in a school year, there's 180 days. So that's 180 hours, let's say, just going to the class. And then let's say that there's an hour of homework every night. Then that's 360 hours throughout that school year. Added on to the three or four or five other classes that require 360 hours. Now, I'm overestimating purposely. that's, you know, but just to do a thought experiment about this, like take removing that one thing. Now we were talking about, we started this conversation talking about simplifying and simplicity, but imagine just removing one class like that, the spaciousness that there is.

25:10And the kid is probably still going to feel just as overwhelmed and just as busy even without that class. But there is a little bit more space for them to build the, as we started talking about earlier, skills that their brain can have time and a little bit more space to build these skills that they need to manage this stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I'm definitely hearing a message. There's, if you're wondering, simplifying, making things simpler, creating a little more space to focus on what's important is really a vital step if you have some neurodiverse kids, some ADHD kids. I mean, this has got to be really hard, right?

25:54Because parents are, if you have a kid who has trouble getting things done, getting things done like homework or organizing or their chores or whatever it is, they have to help them, right? In some ways. Like as they're growing up, They have to help them. They have to kind of step in and teach them things. But I imagine one of the big things parents struggle with is how much to step in and how much to let their kids figure out. And I was wondering, how do you guide families in helping to figure out this balance? I mean, that's a rhetorical question, you know, because I'm sure you hear that all the time.

26:37Do you hear that all the time? Well, I definitely hear the question about homework all the time. And I have maybe a bit of a controversial view on homework. And that I think in general, you know, kind of barring, I'm not an expert on ADHD or neurodiversity, right? Like barring that in general, sort of the baseline should be that homework is kids problem, right? Right. Hopefully you have a school that is not giving homework at kindergarten, which is so inane. It drives me crazy, you know, through fourth grade. Right. Like just some things. Maybe the parent is creating some helping to create some space around homework or some some habits.

27:20But homework is the kid's problem. And actually, if a kid messes up on homework and fails in it like that's good for them to learn that lesson when they are still young and under their parents roof. and it really doesn't matter because they're only in eighth grade, right? Like they can, it's not like they've been propped up by their parents till they're 18 and then they go to college and then they're like, oh my God, I can't do it without any support, right? Like we need to let it be their problem and we are facilitators and coaches to help them organize their lives a bit. But I don't know, that's my point of view from maybe a neurotypical kid.

27:54Go ahead and we'll think. No, I mean, that's it. I mean, so if you think about then, you have a neurodiverse kid, you know, and maybe a parent's like, oh, with my other kid, I can let it be there. You know, I can let them do these things and they can make mistakes and then they can figure it out. How much do they step in and let kids figure out for a kid who really needs help? Okay. Okay. So that's a really good question. And so when we were starting, yeah, this part of the conversation, what I was thinking is that you and I probably hear some different versions of this question like all the time, but the way that I hear it from parents is this, is like, it can be in homework, but it can be in anything, but where a parent, and I usually work with middle high school, college, but where a parent is like, how do I know when I'm doing too much for them?