There Are No Bad Parts: A Kinder Way Through Motherhood - Dr. Angele Close

0:00Hunter Clarke-Fields:You are listening to the Mindful Mama podcast, episode number 585. And today we're talking about that there are no bad parts, a kinder way through motherhood with Dr. Angele Close.

0:15Hunter Clarke-Fields:Welcome to the Mindful Mama podcast. Here it's about becoming a less irritable, more joyful parent. At Mindful Mama, we know that you cannot give what you do not have. And when you have calm and peace within, then you can give it to your children. I'm your host, Hunter Clark-Fields. I help smart, thoughtful parents stay calm so they can have strong, connected relationships with their children. I've been practicing mindfulness for over 25 years. I'm the creator of the Mindful Parenting course and teacher training, and I'm the author of the international bestseller, Raising Good Humans, Raising Good Humans Every Day, and the Raising Good Humans It's a guided journal.

0:54Hunter Clarke-Fields:Hi, welcome back to the podcast. I'm so glad you are here. This is actually one of my favorite conversations I have had this year. I found it so fascinating. Today we're talking to Dr. Angel Close, a clinical psychologist and author who helps mothers heal old patterns, release perfectionism, and embrace motherhood with greater self-trust, compassion, and joy. and we are going to be talking about internal family systems the internal family systems model to help um help us understand our inner worlds really like release that good mom myth and unburden this motherhood you know so we're going to talk about how motherhood is such a big identity shift and we're going to talk about ifs internal family systems and understanding our inner parts this is really really fascinating so uh join me at the table as I talk to Dr.

1:48Hunter Clarke-Fields:Angele Close.

1:55Hunter Clarke-Fields:Hi, I'm Dr. Lisa DeMoor, psychologist, mom, author of several books, including Untangled, and co-host of the Ask Lisa podcast. Each week, I sit down with journalist Rina Ninan, and we talk through the real questions that parents are facing as they're raising tweens and teens. We break down the science, share practical strategies, and try to make this whole raising an adolescent thing feel a little less overwhelming. Search for Ask Lisa, the psychology of raising tweens and teens, wherever you get your podcasts. Well, Angel, thanks so much for coming on the Mindful Mama podcast. So happy to be here.

2:29Thanks for having me.

2:31Hunter Clarke-Fields:Yeah. Well, I'm excited to talk to you about motherhood and the big transformation and understanding all that. But we're going to talk about it through the IFS lens, which is internal family systems. And you're, you know, you're a clinical psychologist. For those of us who don't know, I think it's a fascinating kind of way of thinking about things. But what is IFS? Yeah, it's a model. And really, it's based on a lens of understanding how we are made up, like the human psyche is made up of parts. So we use the language of parts to sort of understand how we show up in the world, how we experience the world, but also how we adapt to it.

3:16So we have, you know, the systemic model that Richard Schwartz created really maps out the different kind of parts that we have, and then the parts that kind of carry our pain and help us function in the day-to-day life, but also that we all have a core essence within us that isn't a part per se, but is actually our deeper inner wise, what he calls self, capital S self. And there's different words, right, that people use for it. But I think that's, you know, ultimately the most important thing to understand is that we all have within us this energy, this capacity that is itself, how we can heal ourselves.

3:57and then also the parts of us that show up that kind of carry the burdens of our experiences, that there is a lot of hope for us to be able to understand ourselves better from this lens of parts and how we relate to our own inner experiences, like the parts of us that have these emotions and thoughts and beliefs. And that's, to me, been one of the most amazing, profound changes across my many years of being a therapist and training in all kinds of modalities. When I learned IFS, I was really blown away at how effective and kind of almost efficiently quickly we can experience change inside and then, of course, outside in our lives.

4:41So, yeah, I hope that answers. I mean, there's lots to say about IFS, but hopefully that gives a a bit of a sense for people who are new to it.

4:49Hunter Clarke-Fields:Yeah, I mean, to me, it just, it's so fascinating, and it makes so much sense, because, you know, we all have that experience of, like, part of me wants this, and part of me wants the complete opposite of this, like, and they're both there, and they're both legit, and they're both real, you know? It's not like, Like, and the whole, you know, reality that like kind of in some ways we are sort of these like, I don't know, we're almost like a multicellular, you know, like organism, right? Where we, where like our little, I don't know, liver system is doing its own little thing and wants to get things going.

5:31Hunter Clarke-Fields:And so is our, you know, all these different systems in the body are like, you know, using resources. and I think sort of the way we exist sort of psychologically, it kind of makes sense that we have these different parts that are like, hey, let's use our resources this way. Let's use our resources this way. Let's, you know, I have this reaction and this other part has this other reaction. Like, I guess I can, to me, it makes a lot of sense. It does. And I think like when I try to teach people about parts, You know, I've been trying over the years to teach my husband, for instance. And then finally, he kind of got it when we were debating, should we get a puppy for our kids?

6:12Like, we already have a dog. Should we get a second dog? And he said, oh, I kind of get what you mean about the parts here. Because like on the one hand, you know, I'm thinking about all the fun and the joy and all the like how fun it would be. And so I say yes. And then on the other hand, right, there's this part that's more logistical and practical and thinks of all the potential problems. And we can all relate to that sense of having mixed feelings, right? Yeah, mixed, different, but both and experiences. And I think that inner tug of war that we can experience can really be explained with IFS and then actually help us understand ourselves better to feel more inner peace, like to integrate those parts.

6:56And then maybe even, you know, in the work that I do with moms is we learn how to communicate and dialogue with these different parts so that they can even negotiate to be more collaborative. And so our inner world isn't so polarized and extreme and kind of back and forth. And then it can feel like we're sort of sabotaging ourselves. And because these different parts have different agendas. I mean, they all want the best for us. So that's fundamentally in IFS. We say there are no bad parts. And when we get to know our parts, they all have the best intentions for us, usually to protect us in some way, keep us safe, avoid harm.

7:34And when we can understand where they're coming from, it's like, it's amazing. It's like intermediation. You know, we can understand what those parts want and work with them to experience real change. Okay.

7:46Hunter Clarke-Fields:So then there is mother, right? Yes. Where hopefully the listener, like I'm familiar with the word matrescence from the conversation with Jessie Harold, talking to her about the idea of that, the profound change that is motherhood and talking about it in different ways over the years. How does IFS help us understand the, like, what are the different parts that are showing up to this experience of matrescence or the becoming a mother, that process? us? Yeah, that's a great question. And I was happy to see that you've already talked about matrescence on your show, because I wish and I feel like all moms should understand that they're in this process just by nature of becoming a mom.

8:32And it is such a profound identity shift. I mean, it affects motherhood changes us in every aspect of life, right? And the two pieces that really stood to me. So I sort of see matrescence as this umbrella term that encapsulates so many of the changes we go through, right? Whether it's relationships or identity and obviously physical changes and all of that spiritual as well. And for me, the two that landed the most important for me that IFS helped with was the aspect that my parts had absorbed these expectations or myths of what it means to be a good mom. So that is explained in matricence, that there is this, you know, every generation has its ideas of the shoulds of what makes a good mom.

9:18And our parts absorb that, and they take them on, and they internalize those beliefs that we've picked up just being a human in our life, right? So indirect ways, but also very direct ways. And so that's huge. So to have a way and a map to understand that our parts have absorbed that so that we can shift the ones that aren't serving us because a lot of these myths are not serving moms to believe and they actually lead to self-doubt, self-criticism, emotional depletion. I would even say, you know, paramental health mood disorders. Like it's really problematic when we believe some of the myths and they're functioning in our life, right?

9:57For example, a good, you know, a good mom doesn't need help. She can do it all on her own. You know, this idea that we should be super mom and we shouldn't need help. Like it's crazy and it really affects moms. So being able to decondition those myths from the parts that we have that have come to believe them and we're not even aware is hugely important for moms. And then the second piece is how our trauma, which you talk a lot about in your podcast, right, is how our unprocessed wounds, our unmet needs in our own childhood are going to be reactivated in ways. Our children are those little mirrors to us as we are now parenting and we are choosing our maternal style, which is understood in matrescence.

10:39These are decisions we're making. What kind of mom do I want to be? And yet, suddenly I'm saying I love you and giving all this affection to my child. It's going to be very obvious if I didn't receive it. Those parts within me are going to start to get activated. And so it's an opportunity to heal what's been unmet, But it certainly is going to come up for moms in matricence.

11:02Hunter Clarke-Fields:Did you experience this yourself with your own experience of matricence? Yes, most definitely. And I mean, I didn't learn the term till I was, you know, my firstborn at the time was nine. So I'd already been a mom for nine years, close to a decade. And when I learned this term, it was a huge shower of validation. I feel like half of the self-blame and the shame that I'd been carrying because I didn't understand all of these changes. And it just like washed over me to have this language. It was hugely validating. And I most definitely did start to notice where my childhood was getting in my way.

11:43And, you know, it was a surprise to me, Hunter, because, I mean, I was a therapist. I had done my PhD and I had had a lot of therapy. And I thought, oh, no, I'm good. Like, I teach mindfulness meditation. Like, I know what to do. And parenting was so challenging for me. You know, during those years, especially of COVID, I'm home with my kids, and they're sort of at the age where they kind of needed, quote unquote, discipline. I have issues with the word discipline, but you know, where they needed limit setting and coaching and parenting. and my kid, especially one whose brain is kind of hardwired a little differently, it wasn't working.

12:22Those traditional things that I found myself thinking, well, my kid will just listen to me. Like, I'm the authority. They're just going to listen. And it didn't work. And, you know, my child had very big emotions. And here I found myself. I was so surprised that I had these reactions. I was like an emotion-focused trained therapist at the time. I'm trying to, like, stop his emotion. Like, I had these reactions that I was so surprised that I had that once I understood IFS and luckily came to IFS around that time, it made a ton of sense. It was like under stress and our default modes especially and now suddenly being presented with parenting a child who's not listening to you, for instance, our parts get activated.

13:06And we can be really shocked, you know, finding ourselves saying things that we think I never would have, you know, have you told me a few years ago I would say that to my kid? No way would I believe that. So that was really when the rubber hit the road for me. And I knew, okay, I need to go back into therapy. I need to figure out why, like, kind of my nervous system was shifting into like freeze mode. And I was, you know, acting in ways that I didn't feel good about. So there was a lot of that guilt. And yeah, so I was very thankful to learn IFS and to very quickly connect with these parts of me that were reacting in these very automatic, understandable human ways, but not how I wanted to be responding to my kids.

13:53Hunter Clarke-Fields:Stay tuned for more Mindful Mama podcasts right after this break. as we get older and our kids get older keeping up with the schedules can be so hard my daughter sora has been doing the tech for the play mama mia there's a lot to do and we're busy and that's why i really love the kozilla calendar plus two you get your calendars your to-do lists and your reminders all in one place and not in yes it's in your phone in your pocket but it's on in a centralized place in your house so it's a beautiful frame it has a calendar sync to keep everybody's calendars up to date real time avoiding conflicts and we don't have to like crane our head next down and pull out these objects to check it we can all do all the planning and we can do event creation all in one place together.

14:50Hunter Clarke-Fields:It even has a reward system to encourage kids independence and meal planning. I mean, it's great and it really supports kids who are developing independence and you can have independence without having the, you know, device in your pocket. Kids with ADHD can benefit from structured routines and you get this large display that is really easy to use. Seamless, easy, syncing. There's also flexible size options, really a different way to do it to make things simpler, to really reduce the mental load in the house, to manage schedules, and encourage kids' responsibility, and just coordinate family life So it is less stressful.

15:35Hunter Clarke-Fields:Go to kozilla.com and use the code HUNTER to get$30 off your first order at checkout. That's C-O-Z-Y-L-A dot com to get$30 off your first order with the promo code HUNTER. Yeah, I think a lot of people, I can relate to that. A lot of people can relate to that, that feeling of like, I mean, I remember reacting in exactly the way I did not want to, like, I had chosen not to react this way. And here I was reacting this way. And yeah, I could see that, you know, there was I could see that that pattern of, of, of, you know, part of me, what felt like the behavior that I was being, that I was reacting to was completely unacceptable because of my own childhood, you know, it and I think this idea of trying to stop our kids' emotions is really, really common one.

16:35Hunter Clarke-Fields:Like, that's kind of what I had wanted to do. And for when you explored that, and you probably explored that, I imagine, with your patients and stuff, this idea of wanting to stop our kids' emotions, what is the part that we're dealing, I mean, for many of us, that we might be dealing with and sort of who that's coming forth at that time? Yeah, that's a great question and probably lots of different answers to it. But in a nutshell, I mean, I've come to truly understand in a way, not just theoretically, but in my own experience as a parent, that the more I'm able to be with all of my parts, and so that includes the parts that feel shame, you know, the ones that we tend to be very good at avoiding feeling of we have a lot of protector parts that work hard to keep those emotions that we weren't allowed either weren't able to process or weren't allowed to process right that we've our systems kind of managed to shove down some of these emotions that are more vulnerable or more difficult and so until we're able to really be with all of those parts and all of the emotions that they're carrying, it's going to be really hard for us to show up and fully hold space and be calm and be in that self-energy when our kids are now reacting because kids have parts too.

17:57So they have big feelings, they have big parts, and our parts react to their parts. So the more we can understand our own reactors, like the kind of the common parts that might come up for us when we can do our work and connect with those parts and understand where they're coming from and start creating that relationship to our own parts from that self-energy, from loving awareness, from that space, that's really when I started to notice shifts happening. I really did stop reacting in those kind of harsher, self-protective, ultimately, ways, right? When we snap, I mean, that's the protector part that's snapping at our kid to try to control something, right?

18:38To make something happen. It's very, very common. I think so many of us moms feel that, experience it.

18:46Hunter Clarke-Fields:Yeah. I mean, I think we should have a lot of compassion for ourselves in those moments because it's not a choice we're making to do that. And yet what you're describing is like, you're describing is like kind of like, you have to have, I want to say like make friends, right? You have to make friends, you have to have a relationship with this part of you. And that means, A, accepting, recognizing and accepting that it's here, right? Recognizing and allowing and accepting that this part is here, not fighting and not pushing it away. And then kind of understanding where it's coming from. And that feels so counterintuitive to all of us, right?

19:33Yes, that's where the model is so helpful. And it It does feel like it's unique, right? It's not something we've been taught, but you're absolutely right, Hunter. It is to get curious with our parts that are here because they are here. And you're right. Usually our system is liking certain parts and shutting down other parts. And the whole inner system is designed in ways to try to keep that pain down. But that is kind of the way towards liberation is, you know, they're not going to go away. They don't get suppressed. Then they end up popping up. For instance, if you've learned in your, say, your early childhood home that wasn't okay to express anger, you're going to learn, your parts are going to accommodate to that to keep you safe in your family home and suppress all this anger.

20:16And then lo and behold, of course, that emotion, which makes sense and is valid in so many places in our life, is going to get reactivated. And so turning towards, so we do in IFS called a U-turn, which is like, you know, go inside and what part is here? And it is that attitude of curiosity, the beginner's mind that we want to sort of harness and embody and start to befriend it. And we do start talking to our parts to understand them and to understand what are they afraid? What is the role that they're playing in our life? And usually there's a concern or a fear that there's something that they're trying to help us with.

20:57And once we get clear on that, there's almost always just this heart-opening compassion. Because when we understand what it's trying to do, it makes a ton of sense. And already we're feeling warm and soft towards this part of us that maybe before we were feeling guilt about or shame about or not liking it, which is so painful to be against ourselves, right? So it's so healing just even in that moment to understand why is my protector part, you know, that's kind of being sharp or domineering with my kid. You know, our parts don't even know that that's who those people are because our parts have been functioning for us since we're small.

21:35So they've been playing this part. And in many ways, they think we're still a kid, that they have to keep doing their role. So a big piece of the healing that IFS allows us to is to update our parts. So you're getting curious, you're befriending it, you're understanding what's its intention and what's its goal and what's its afraid. Like if you don't do, if you don't snap at your kid, what are you afraid is going to happen? And for instance, the part might say, well, no one's going to listen to me if I don't yell, for instance, right? That has been one that's come up. So there's a lot of fears that our parts are carrying and that's why they're doing what they do.

22:09And then once we get that clarity, then, you know, we can appreciate, we sort of feel that compassion for our parts of us and we kind of appreciate what they're trying to do. And then that's just now the gateway to a new relationship with our parts and inviting them to try a different role. You know, would you be willing to soften and we can update them and let them know I'm actually now the adult, you know, they don't even know that. And so that updating is really powerful to get our parts to sort of be our sidekick instead of taking over and hijacking us.

22:45Hunter Clarke-Fields:Yeah, it's fascinating because a lot of these parts may not have been triggered in life at all. That's right. Until you get back into this parent-child relationship. So it's not like you've been hanging out for a while and you know each other very well. You don't. You're like an adult who, you know, you think you got maybe a fair amount of your stuff figured out, and then you get into motherhood and you're like oh oh hello right hello whatever all you know all this defensiveness and this for me it was the anger yeah and you know it's it's surprising um you know all everything you're describing is like screaming mindfulness of course yes yes yes it's like take a u-turn and look inside.

23:39Hunter Clarke-Fields:That's right. Beginner's mind, like, let's, like, be aware of what's here. Let's not push it away. Let's have compassion. This is all very mindfulness-based. But this idea of then looking at it kind of as these sort of different parts. You talk about, like, the inner critic, right? That voice, I think, can be very, very loud. How does IFS help us work with it instead of fighting against it? Yeah, absolutely. And it is very much a mindfulness practice, right? So, I am going to answer your question about the critic because it's so huge and so many of us moms struggle with their inner critic. And it's a really significant change when we can change our relationship to that part.

24:30And I just want to add, too, that for me, so I was a mindfulness teacher at the time. I'd been practicing mindfulness meditation for like 15, 20 years when I learned IFS. And for me, the difference was, or where it felt like a next level is, and I had a mentor explain to me at the time, because I was really grappling with mindfulness as a psychotherapy, or, you know, is it a healing modality? And she had said it this way. She said, And mindfulness isn't concerned with the content. It's more the practice of how we're relating to what's there. But, you know, if you have thoughts in your mind, for instance, we're going to watch them, observe them, and let them go like clouds in the sky.

25:09And for me, when I came to IFS, in my matricence and in my parenting, I had so many parts that were coming up. And it wasn't, and it just wasn't enough. And it gave me a map of what to do next of, like, I actually care about the content. So it's kind of like each of these parts are like my little inner children that have carrying deep pain or emotions or beliefs that are not great, you know, really suffering. And it's like they were coming to me, wanting my attention. And I was practicing just kind of letting them go and trying to push them away instead. And so when I learned the steps of IFS, it was just a little bit more.