[What Boys Need Series] Decoding Boys - Dr. Cara Natterson

0:00You're listening to the Mindful Mama podcast episode number 570. Today is the first in the What Boys Need series. We're talking about decoding boys with Dr. Kara Natterson.

0:14Welcome to the Mindful Mama podcast. Here it's about becoming a less irritable, more joyful parent. At Mindful Mama, we know that you cannot give what you do not have, and when you have calm and peace within, then you can give it to your children. I'm your host, Hunter Clark-Fields. I help smart, thoughtful parents stay calm so they can have strong, connected relationships with their children. I've been practicing mindfulness for over 25 years. I'm the creator of the Mindful Parenting course and teacher training, and I'm the author of the international bestseller, Raising Good Humans, Raising Good Humans Every Day, and the Raising Good Humans Guided Journal.

0:53Hey, welcome back to the podcast. So glad you're here. This is the first of the What Boys Need series. So if you are a parent of boys or know some parents of boys, maybe you want to get this episode to them because there is so much here. And we have two other episodes in this series that are really going to just help you raise your boys with thoughtfulness and care. And today I'm going to be talking to Dr. Karen Addison, a pediatrician, New York Times bestselling author, podcaster, and founder of Less Awkward, the first company aimed at making puberty less cringy and more comfortable with both product and content.

1:33And she is the author of her Body Books for Kids, the Care and Keeping of You series. And we are going to talk about boys and puberty and before puberty and all those awkward times and how to maintain your connection when boys start to withdraw, how to talk about emotional struggle, how to talk about some of that body stuff and just how to have those safe, supportive conversations that will help your boy thrive during these transformative years. So join me at the table as I talk to Dr. Karen Natterson.

2:21If you're a nurse or future nurse, you know how challenging and rewarding this career can be. Hi there, I'm Nurse Mo, creator of the Straight A Nursing Podcast. I'd love for you to join me every Thursday as I teach nursing concepts and share tips to help you succeed in school and at the bedside. Each episode breaks down often complex information so it's easy to understand, so you can feel more confident whether you're taking an exam or taking care of patients. So subscribe to the Straighten Nursing Podcast, and I'll see you on Thursday. Well, thank you for coming on the Mindful Nama Podcast. I'm so glad you're here.

3:02Thank you. I'm thrilled to be here. Okay, so you've been on the podcast before. We talked in 2024 about modern puberty. And today we're going to talk more about puberty. Oh, fun. But this time about boys, right? So you've spent a lot of time focusing on helping parents and kids navigate puberty. What made you want to focus on doing this for boys particularly? Yeah. Well, I think it dates back to when I was with American Girl writing all of the various body books in the Care and Keeping of You series. And really from minute one at American Girl, I was pitching a boy book, which you can imagine did not go over super well at a company called American Girl.

3:52but they ultimately ended up doing it. We wrote a book called Guy Stuff, which was the boys' version of The Care and Keeping of You, and then a book called Guy Stuff Feelings, which as advertised was about how to articulate how you feel and how to identify how you feel. And then it became clear to me that if boys got this content, maybe their parents and trusted adults deserved this content too. And so that's why I decided to write a book more in the parenting sphere than in the sort of kid sphere or sort of a narrower lane. And I thought, you know, Hunter, I love that we work in the space of parenting, and yet I reject the title parenting because I think it's not on us to tell other people how to do it.

4:53But that's the shelf that Decoding Boys lives on is the parenting shelf. well I I feel like I don't have a boy but I feel like if I had a boy and I was coming on like puberty puberty and explaining all these things I would feel like give me a book because I don't know what the heck to do I don't know what to say I'm not sure my husband would know what to say or do um you know I don't know it you focus on making it less awkward I guess you have that practice as a physician making it less awkward. Where do you start with this? It seems so awkward. It is. You know, here's the thing about the gendering of all this.

5:38It's very much a false divide. We've decided as a society that girl puberty looks one way and boy puberty looks another. And the truth is, it looks different for every kid and doesn't really matter what their genders are. It matters how the mix of the hormones that are shifting and changing in their bodies interact with the neurons in their brain to shape their behavior and their interactions with other people, right? So those sex hormones, estrogen and testosterone, that's what changes the body and makes the body more physically mature, but it also, they impact the brain. And depending upon how your brain reacts to certain amounts of either estrogen or testosterone or a host of other hormones, that will determine your experience through puberty, your social experience, your emotional experience.

6:34So I think we've gotten really good as a culture at identifying things that are sort of girl puberty related, particularly outward moodiness, which is, it's fair, the typical average girl will express emotions in a much more obvious way in sort of the peak years of puberty. For boys, the average experience, a very common experience, But it doesn't mean that everyone has this experience. But a very common experience is going quiet. So boys will often retreat. They will retreat into their room. They will retreat behind headphones. They will shut the door on their parents. They will sit at the dinner table silently in a way that they did not before.

7:28And that adds a different type of awkwardness. because it's not just that you have to cover certain topics that you, the adult, might not be super comfortable with, but you're covering these topics with a human who is really not engaging with you in any kind of deep and meaningful way. That often feels different, but there are girls who experience puberty in that way, and there are boys who do not. So I'm always cautious to not completely gender it. Yeah. Actually, I was thinking back to, I've thought, as I've talked about puberty with kids, about these people, I've thought about it with myself and thinking how like, I completely hid it from my parents.

8:14I didn't want them to know it was like, oh my God, I didn't want to talk about it. I didn't want to do any of that. I don't know. Maybe it's just growing up in the 80s, but. Oh, you know what? I think when I flashback to my own self, I felt the same way. And now I laugh out loud thinking that I could hide it. Right. I mean, you know, let's start with breast buds that poke out of everything. Like, there's no way to hide them. Right. Right. And and also, you know, the mood swings of of puberty and adolescence, while we all think we're really great actors and we're keeping them to ourselves, our parents look at us and recognize us as transformed.

8:57They know there's something going on for us. So the difference between then and now, I think, is then it was awkward and no one talked about it. And now it's awkward and we're trying to figure out how to be in conversation. I was petrified. I heard about a friend of mine whose mom and grandmother threw her a party. And I was like, oh, don't let that happen. But I imagine that parents of boys are not throwing them a party when they come home with the first, like, what, I don't know, like, you know, stained sheets. Like, that's probably not happening. It's probably not. In fact, they are all ignoring the situation, Hunter.

9:40They are like literally, I did a social media post recently where I literally spent 60 seconds teaching people how to clean their sheets because no one talks about it, right? When does that start happening for boys? I don't even know. It starts happening any time after the onset of puberty. So the average boy is starting puberty between 9 and 10, and then wet dreams begin. And, you know, I mean, it's not in the first five minutes of puberty, but shortly thereafter, you can see kids having wet dreams as young as 10, 11, 12. Some kids never have them, by the way. And that's totally normal. But it's also very normal to have them sometimes.

10:20And it's also very normal to have them all the time. Okay. All right. Well, let's dive into this awkwardness. So the sons are like they're starting to pull away emotionally. They're starting to be quiet. They're starting to withdraw. From your experience, what's really going on here and how can we stay connected without being too pushy or pushing too hard? You go right there to the big question because that's the dance, right? That's the thing that everyone's trying to figure out. How do I sort of get in? How do I get through the crack in the door and then have this deep and meaningful connection and conversation without annoying my kid, without frustrating my kid, without shutting my kid down more.

11:14And it's going to be different for every pair of adult and child, so every dyad, every combination of a kid and an adult. And the reason I say it that way is, yes, this is about parenting, but this is also about you might be the trusted adult for someone. You might be the aunt, the uncle, the coach, the mentor, the healthcare provider, the educator, right? You might be the person a kid goes to, and then suddenly that relationship shifts too. So the classic shift is in parenting, but it really happens in a lot of different trusted adult to kid relationships. And that sort of navigating that little crack and trying to figure out how do you get in there, it's really tricky.

12:04I would say the best piece of advice I have is to try lots of different ways and acknowledge to yourself that they won't all work, and that's okay. And try again a different way because it is the trying from lots of different perspectives that will demonstrate to the kid in your life that you care. If you try to talk about porn or wet dreams or hygiene and using soap in the shower, it could be anything, right? and your kid will not engage, will not engage, will not engage. And you just keep going at it. You try asking an open-ended question. You try asking a yes-no question. You try bringing it up in the car.

12:57You try bringing it up at the dinner table. If you go at it as many different ways as you can think of, something will resonate. And probably the thing that'll resonate the most is, huh, they're really being persistent about this topic. This feels like it means something to them. I guess I should engage them in this conversation.

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14:02Find the past and the curious at all the usual podcast places.

14:10okay all right so i'm kind of hearing like um that you know that we want to try a lot of different ways we want to be very persistent this this really requires like a a big dose of courage i think on parents part is there sort of a ratio you know when i think about teens in general like we're talking about when we're talking about development you know talk we want to talk to boys about their development right we want to talk to boys about puberty and things like that but also teens in general are kind of pulling away they're separating they're focusing more on their peers so in general with pre you know adolescence I always think of this idea that we should kind of think about I tell people to like date your kids you know like to to take them out and do like some fun things you know they're not like little kids anymore who are gonna just come to you and want your attention, you have to kind of, like you nurture the relationship with your spouse and go on date nights, you kind of have to do the same with your kid, right?

15:11Like, whoa, do you want to play this? Do you want to play video games together? Do you want to go out for some, I'm near Philly, so water ice, right? Like, what do you want to do, right? So when we're approaching these awkward development conversations, it's like a ratio, like, Should there be, you know, like, you know, we talk about five positive deposits before we have a withdrawal in the bank account. Is there something, is there some ratio we can go for like that? That is a great, first of all, I love the whole analogy. And it's a great question. And unfortunately, as unpredictable as puberty itself is, it shows up when it wants to show up.

15:56It happens in whatever order it wants to happen in. It takes as long as it wants to take. that's kind of the same as this sort of rule of ratios and connection. Like there isn't one set, you know, and with toddlers, when I wear my pediatrician hat, it's like, give them a food 10 times before they'll like it. There's no, like, you might say the same thing once to a kid and they're like, great idea, mom. And you might have to say it 10 times and they're just not biting. You know, you just, there is no magic number. But what there is, is the marathon, the long game of it all. And I think that's what is different about raising kids through the tween and teen years and raising kids in their younger years.

16:46I mean, this is, these conversations that you are embarking on are not one-off conversations. You're going to have them dozens and dozens of times. And they're not always necessarily about today or tomorrow. A lot of them are about bigger life choices that you hope they're going to make down the road, right? Decisions about substances they might put in their body or decisions about, you know, connections with other people and whether it's sexual or romantic or friendship. These are really big topics. And so sometimes you have to sort of slowly build your case for the thing that you're trying to convince your kid of.

17:30And that might take, I don't know, Hunter, it could take 20 conversations. It could take 50 conversations. It could take something that you don't even consider a conversation, like just a comment that you happen to drop. And that counts in their mind as a conversation, But to you, it's just a little thing that you dropped. And then sometimes it takes, you know, a long three-hour heart-to-heart, really rough, you know, those conversations. So I wish I could give you a number. It would be really easy then. It would be more predictable. But no. Okay. But maybe sprinkle in some like some Minecraft and whatever sports conversations along the way to.

18:17Now, I'm thinking about you're saying all these conversations. If we have like if the listener has like a seven year old. Should. Might it be a good idea to kind of lay the groundwork of like, hey, you know, it, you know, see that kid over there. there are maybe nine or ten or eleven in a few years bodies go undergo changes yours will too that kind of thing are you are we starting the developmental stuff like ahead of time so there they know what to expect a little you know it's a really fair question the version of it i usually get is when is it too late to have not talked about sex like past what point have i messed up right?

19:06That's the other side of this coin that you're asking about. I think with a seven-year-old, they see the world while they're starting to incorporate the views of other people, and they're starting to develop empathy and understanding in a very profound kind of way. I still think it's a lot to ask them to look at a nine-year-old whose body is changing, and to say to them, one day and not too far away, that's going to be you. That's a lot for them to take in, especially for seven-year-olds who very much want to be kids. I mean, we know a lot of nine-year-olds, 11-year-olds, 13-year-olds who still want to be kids, and they will say to their parents, I don't like what's happening to my body because I just want to be a little kid, right?

19:57So when we tell a seven-year-old without them asking, hey, that's going to happen to you, and we're excited about it. In their mind's eye, maybe it's an exciting thing for them, or maybe it's like, wait a second, I don't need any of that. I just want to play tag, right? So I would do this with a seven-year-old. I would absolutely answer any question they ask. If they say, will that happen to my body? Answer that question. If you're not sure what question they're asking, ask for clarification. That's such an interesting question. What do you mean by that? Tell me what you're asking. Oh, I see that they have, you know, I don't know, hairier arms than I have.

20:43Will that happen to me? Okay, that's the question. Or they're a lot taller than I am. When am I going to grow, right? So you can always ask for some clarification. But if they're not asking, then you can prompt them with a question. And it can sound something like this. Hey, I am here to answer any questions you have. And if I don't know the answer, I will look it up or ask someone who we trust to give us the answer. So if you ever want to know about, say, how your body might start to change in the next few years as you start to grow up, just ask me. I love that. That's great. It's a very skillful way of putting it.

21:24Okay, let's fast forward. They're nine. They're going on 10. You're starting to see some signs. They smell. They're smelling a little. What are some ways to open up maybe some of these initial conversations about puberty? Yeah. So when they are starting to have some physical signs of puberty and they're not asking about it, which is really the most common scenario, it is on you to start bringing it up. And it is on you because they will learn from feedback from their peers that they smell, that they haven't brushed their teeth and everyone knows, that their body is changing or their looks are shifting.

22:13Kids are very blunt with one another, sometimes feeling unkind in its delivery, sometimes not meant to be unkind in its delivery, just blunt, and it is what it is. But I think, you know, while I don't believe in paving the way for your kids and in saving them from everything that's coming at them, because I think that is an important rite of passage for kids to kind of go through life with lots of love and lots of guardrails, but they've got to go through life. On the other hand, I think it's completely fair for you to say to them, hey, I'm noticing that your body smells different than it used to, and I'm happy to explain why, But I also want you to know I notice because if I notice, then probably other people are noticing.

23:07And there's something you can do about it. And if you don't want anyone to say anything to you about it, I can walk you through what to do. And that's a way of saying like, I'm not going to save you from everything. I'm not going to helicopter and hover and snowplow and all the things. but I am going to be honest with you and I'm always going to tell you what I see or what I hear. And then sometimes I'll tell you what you have to do. And in this case, I'm going to tell you what you could do to solve it. And there, you know, even when it comes to bodies, there are must-dos and may-dos, right? So the must-dos are the things that are sort of preventive health measures.

23:47You must brush your teeth. If you don't brush your teeth, you're going to get cavities. If you get cavities. Now we're at the dentist. You're getting your teeth drilled, all the things. It's really bad for your gum health. It's bad for your future health. This is a must do. This is not negotiable. But the may do, the may do looks a little bit different. Hey, you know, when you take a bath or a shower, the only way it works is with soap. So I can't make you use soap, but I'm going to tell you. If you don't, you will still smell. That's just the fact. Okay, so that's a great way to address the smell.

24:26We're being, we're not being overly, overly harsh. We're not being overly kind. We're just being pretty direct and offering some options. What are some of the top issues of puberty that parents of boys should make sure they are talking to their boys about? Yeah. So first of all, boys deserve all the same information that girls get. So they should know about their anatomy. They should have the proper names of their body parts, internal and external. By the way, parents, if you don't know this information, amazingly, there are lots of books written for 8, 10, 12-year-old boys that you can read and educate yourself.

25:10They were not around when you were younger, but feel free. It is really an easy way to get the information yourself. So you could do that. Do you have any quick recommendations on that? Because I loved, for when my kids are little, who has what? And I can't remember some other titles now, but. Yeah. On my website, lessawkward.com, we have resources we love that's in the footer on every page. And we have a long list of books, websites, videos, all these wonderful resources. And there are a bunch of them on there. We also have a curriculum, a course for parents. And the course is really meant to catch parents up on those lessons that they may have never had when they were growing up.

26:00So we have male anatomy and female anatomy. And it's the same curriculum we teach kids in schools. We just make it accessible for the parents. Because if an 8, 9, 10-year-old is learning this in school and we don't know this, you know, this isn't like, oh, I can't help you with your math homework anymore because you've lapped me and I don't remember this math. You won't get that pass on this content, right? So boys deserve to know about anatomy. They deserve to know about hormones, what hormones are, what hormones do in their body and their brains. They deserve to know about emotions and the breadth of emotions, and they need help naming emotions.

26:41This is all the same information that we give girls very readily. They deserve to know about periods. They may never get a period, but they can absolutely be that person who shows up for someone who has their period and needs someone else in the room to have their back, right? So they should learn about periods and period products. Boys deserve to know about all of the sort of healthy and unhealthy relationship spectrum issues, what makes a good friendship, what makes a toxic relationship, right? They deserve to know about consent in all of its form, not just sexual consent, but consent that begins, you know, in preschool with sharing, sharing space, sharing food, right?

27:31So the list is pretty long. Some of it's physical, some of it's social, emotional, and all of it will sound familiar. Most people will be like, well, I never really thought of that as health education, what my kid needs to know, because they've been getting a lot of it along the way from, especially from school. But yeah, they need those conversations. Yeah. I mean, I guess they, you know, along with this goes all of those sex conversations too, you know, this like, you know, I definitely learned that from Amy Lang that, you know, want my kids to learn these things for me and not the internet you know so I have had conversations about like what is a blowjob which is not the funnest conversation to have with your I don't know it's like 12 or 13 year old daughter I mean right like it's like and one of the one of the tips that was so helpful was like just you know we're gonna have this conversation it's gonna be awkward and this can be over in just a few minutes, but I do need you to have this information.

28:38Is that something you recommend? So first of all, I love the shout out to Amy Lang, who is a wonderful educator on all of these topics around especially sexual health. But yes, I mean, if you have got to get a piece of information across, okay, it is a great strategy to say to your kid, I am going to set a timer. I am literally going to be in this conversation for whatever you are, two minutes. When the timer goes off, I will stop talking and it's over. You can ask me any questions you want always, but like, this is so important that even though I know you don't want to hear it. I am going to just dump it on you.

29:27And you can even go a step further and narrate how you feel. I'm so nervous. My hands are sweating. My heart is racing. I feel like I'm going to throw up. I don't want to have this conversation with you either because it feels so awkward. But I'm going to have it because it's that important.