[What Boys Need Series] Going Beyond “Boys Will Be Boys” - Dr. Judy Chu

23:40And that creates problems for their social and emotional development because everyone has to know how to take care of themselves and take care of their relationships. And so it's kind of like we bind boys and men's arms and legs from, you know, before we throw them into the water and tell them to swim in, you know, kind of this ocean of life where they need all the resources and all the capabilities that they have to draw from because life is inevitably challenging and they will struggle if they can't access their full capacity. Yeah. I bet you're seeing, you know, those studies about like the loneliness of men and all of that and saying like, oh, yes, I see exactly where this comes from because you write about that and when boys become boys, how they hide their sensitivity or they hide their emotional, you know, they suppress their feelings to fit into this gender norm of being a boy.

24:33So how can parents recognize when a boy is suppressing his feelings and how can we respond without shaming him? I think that's a great question. And I think one of the things, And parents are actually the best positioned to do this because you know your kids better than anyone. And so one of the things you can do is just kind of watch for notice unusual behavior, especially with younger kids, but adolescents as well. I'll start with the younger kids just because it's easier to talk about it. But it's kind of like when a five-year-old is telling his friend a secret and they're not very good at whispering.

25:13And so you can totally hear it. And I think that, you know, when younger kids are trying to hide that they're upset, you can still tell. So for parents to just trust their instincts, when you see your kid behaving in ways and you're like, oh, that seems like something's wrong, ask them. Ask them what's going on. And you can just say, oh, you know, I've noticed you're not very, you know. Oh, my goodness. There's a great example, actually, of a boy doing this with another boy in my book, right? And so one of the boys was feeling a little stolen, a little downcast while they were playing, two boys were playing together.

25:43And his friend says, you know, you seem a little bit sad or unhappy today. And the boy says, yeah, well, I miss my mom. And his friend says, oh, that's okay. You know, you still have your friends. And they just continue playing. And eventually, both of them are running around and fine. But just kind of validating, you know, noticing, validating it, and being able to kind of say, oh, you know, I've noticed this about you. You don't seem quite yourself. Not that we expect them to be like happy and excited all the time, but just like if something seems off, like they can talk about it and they want to talk about it.

26:17So kind of starting from this understanding that boys can tell us what they need as long as they sense we're actually interested. And to kind of give a maybe a little bit of a contrasting example, another boy I spoke to during his kindergarten year said that, you know, he was new to the class and being excluded by all of the other boys because he was new. And so he was really unhappy and struggling. And he tried to tell his mom. And when he told her that the boys were leaving him out, she said, oh, I think you're just joshing. Like, I think you're just kidding. And don't worry about it. Oh, no.

26:49She dismissed his feelings. Exactly. And he goes, she didn't believe me. And I just thought, oh, my gosh. And so it's just like, you know, at that time, and actually at all ages, you know, as Mr. Rogers tells us, if it's mentionable, it's manageable. And so we can help kids to mention these things and we can give them not only language, but permission to say, you know, what's going on for them and not to have that all figured out and not to solve it for them, but just to have them be able to talk about it and talk it through that. Just that act of being able to share what they're experiencing can be very comforting.

27:25One of the 12-year-old boys actually said to me when he was talking about why he wished he had a best friend, he just says, just that feeling that someone else understands and can relate to what you're going through, he's in this kind of comforting, right? So then they know they're not alone. Oh, yeah. We all need that. Exactly. Exactly. And so that's one of the things that parents can do that can be very, very powerful is just being there and just listening. And again, as someone who is a fixer and rushes in and tries to fall in, I can reassure parents, like, you don't actually need to fix anything.

27:58In fact, they don't really want you to fix it for them. But if you just kind of can be there with them in that moment, that can be the most helpful thing. Thank you for saying that as a fixer yourself, because I often say that to parents and they're like, I'm not sure they totally believe me. I'm like, you could just listen. And listening does a lot. It does so much. So this is one of the ways. I mean, imagine if you're a parent raising a little boy, you know, you're probably, you know, the boy is going to get these messages to toughen up, right? To not be a sissy, to do all those things. And I imagine you want to, I mean, I don't know, I imagine probably a lot of the listeners of the Mindful Mama podcast want to resist some of these gender norms that aren't so healthy and maybe are a little toxic.

28:52So I guess maintaining one of those connections, that relational talking connection is probably one of the most healthy things they can do to foster that resistance a little, right? Absolutely. There was this enormous study called the Adolescent Health Study that was conducted in Minnesota starting in the 90s and it was longitudinal. And they like surveyed like over 50 ,000 kids and then interviewed, you know, also tens of thousands. And they found that the single best protector against psychological risk, like low self-esteem and depression and social risk, like an intended pregnancy, dropping out of school, substance use, was having access to at least one close confiding relationship.

29:36And it could be with a parent, a sibling, a friend, a mentor, just anyone that they felt really knew them and was there for them. That those individuals, because it applies to adults as well, those individuals were much better off. It didn't mean that they experienced less struggle or fewer challenges in life, but it meant that they felt that they had a network of support to draw on to be more resilient and to face those challenges and to know that they were going to be okay in the end. And so, yeah, absolutely. I mean, parents can do that for their kids by providing kind of this secure attachment base that kids know they can come back to when they've made a mistake or when something horrible has happened.

30:14And, you know, unfortunately, we can't shield our kids from facing, you know, people will tell them to toughen up. People will tease them for, you know, crying when they're hurt, which I always just blows my mind because I don't know that why we think, you know, boys can break their legs and not cry or whatever. You know, walk it off. You know, you just have all these really strange expectations. And the fact that absolutely as humans, they are physically and emotionally vulnerable. And so they're going to experience the whole range of feelings. and for us to allow them to acknowledge and process those feelings in healthy ways seems better than telling them to deny that they have it and to kind of, you know, withdraw from, you know, sharing it.

30:57Like another example was a boy, a college-age boy who was really close to his grandfather and his grandfather passed away. And he had stopped coming to class because he was just so sad and he was, you know, really struggling. and when he finally came back to class and it was for a workshop that Shanti Branch did in my class he's wonderful but he just kind of invited people into the space invited them to be present with each other to breathe together really simple things that we also always take for granted and also just to kind of check in with each other not like a therapy session not a professional advice kind of deal but just sitting with each other that this boy after a couple weeks of grieving his grandfather thought this was the first time he felt like the weight had been lifted like just being able to enter the space and have someone sit with him was so helpful.

31:45And so these kinds of protective relationships are really essential to our healthy resistance when we're being imposed upon by pressures that might undermine our sense of integrity or prevent us from reaching out for help and things like that. And it also just kind of helps us restore, it is the source of our resilience. I think Soraya Shamali just wrote a book called The Myth of Resilience and said that resilience, we kind of misunderstand it because we think an individual is resilient, when in fact what makes individuals resilient is the network of support that they can reach out to when they are struggling.

32:24So again, it's more of a relational model and a relational understanding of how we function and how we thrive.

32:35stay tuned for more mindful mama podcast right after this break

32:43i think that makes so much sense and it's taking some time to filter and i think to the all of us that it is so relational how we thrive at the whole uh harvard longitudinal study with that It started in, what, the 30s or something, right? Or it was World War II. Anyway, yeah, which came out that relationships are the most important thing. I was thinking about this, and I'm thinking about the parents. And I imagine there may be ways to talk about this with kids, to just make them aware of some of the messages they're getting. I mean, I don't know at what age, but that may be possible to say, like, you know, what do you think it's okay for boys to do versus girls to do and things like that?

33:32And I wonder also if there's, so, you know, would you say there are age appropriate, healthy ways to kind of talk about some of the expectations about boys that aren't so good? And then I was also wondering, are there things that parents of little boys can celebrate about being a boy that is like really positive and, you know, because we talk about these problems, but there's also like great things, right? Absolutely. I mean, if I can start with that, one of the main points of my book are that boys have these relational capabilities. They are born with a fundamental capacity and a primary desire for relationships.

34:11They can be articulate and direct and authentic and attentive. They're very capable of being fully present and genuinely emotionally engaged in their relationships. And so they have all these things. But again, because we tend to associate those or gender those as feminine, we see those and notice them more in girls. And we expect girls and women to do it and to be good at it. But we don't expect it in boys and men. And moreover, when we see it in boys and men, we're like, oh, should they be doing that? Are they too soft? Are they too feminine? We could almost like mentally code it as leadership because that's what leadership is in so many ways, is like understanding all the different relationships and how to, you know.

34:50Absolutely. And these relational capabilities, like one of the points I make is that they're not feminine weaknesses. They're human strengths. And Jackson Katz, who founded Mentors in Violence Prevention, said, you know, enabling boys to acknowledge, to be attuned to emotions and to be responsive in relationships. This is not sensitivity training. It's leadership training because this will serve them well, not only in their personal relationships, but in their professional relationships. It's what makes a good leader. You have to be able to, you know, get along with people. You have to be able to know what's going on, to consider other perspectives, to be attuned to their needs and to be responsive and to work collaboratively.

35:27It takes all of these skills. And so, again, when we kind of socialize boys away from being in touch with and valuing those qualities and skills, we really do them a disservice. and we put them in harm's way in terms of their well-being, but also in terms of their professional success, right? And so it really is to their benefit to acknowledge and value boys emotional intelligence, if that's what some people are more comfortable calling it, or relational abilities, relational strengths, because these are things that they need in order to thrive and in order to succeed. Okay. And then I imagine, likewise, then it might be healthy to have some conversations about, yeah, some people think that boys shouldn't cry.

36:11What do you think about that? Something like that? Would you encourage parents to have some kind of, I mean, depending on the age, I don't know. I think that it's a great idea to talk about it, but because we want to be careful about not, we don't want to introduce the idea either. Like if they haven't heard that, then you don't want to be like, oh, some people say this. So usually when I talk to the four-year-olds about it, I would say, you know, again, like similar to the question I asked Allison, do you ever feel expected to act a certain way? Or do you see some people being treated differently?

36:42Or how would have you noticed? And they'll tell you. Or usually like, oh, well, does everyone play together? Or does some kids play different? And so then you don't introduce the idea that things need to be gendered. But obviously, most likely some of the things are going to be gendered. So, you know, does everybody play the same games and does everyone do the same things or is it okay? You know, does anyone ever get in trouble for doing one thing when, you know, so just kind of say like, what do you kind of asking them like what they're noticing and what they see? Because they have kids have this in wonderfully strong sense of justice and fairness.

37:20That's true. So when they see someone being treated incorrectly or they don't or something doesn't make sense to them, like logically, like, oh, why did that? why did they tell this boy he can't cry? This person was crying and everyone was kind of, you know, making fun of him. Why did that happen? You know? And one of the boys in my study actually said that, like the neighborhood kids, there was one kid who was somehow different. I can't remember why he was different. And then the other kids would pick on him and his mom would say, you know, and he felt conflicted because he's like, well, you know, all of my friends are picking on him, but I don't feel like that's the right thing to do.

37:53And so she'd say, well, if you don't like it, then don't do it. And if you're feeling up to it, maybe you could stand next to him and defend him if you're comfortable. I mean, never asking kids to put themselves in harm's way, but letting them know that what they're feeling is not wrong. And even if other people seem to be on board with it, letting them trust their instincts because they have such a strong sense. Their moral compass is so, you know, it's so compelling and we want them to hold onto that, you know, that sense of what's right and what's wrong and I don't like this. And even if they don't always, it can't always follow up their behaviors.

38:31One of the things we can really help them to do is to preserve and cultivate their sense of their own conscience and their own values and their own beliefs. I mean, you can't, as much as we might aspire to behave in ways that reflect our beliefs, We know that that's not always practical, even for adults, and sometimes takes enormous courage to do. And so giving kids that credit, too. Like, yeah, I know it's hard sometimes to say what you think. And then telling them where they can do it, where it's safe. Because, again, it's not like all or nothing. It's not like, oh, you're authentic and you just have to tell everybody what you think all the time.

39:08Because sometimes it really isn't safe, right? And so teaching them to say, if you don't trust your instincts, if you don't feel like you can do this here, that's okay. And it's not so much about, I make a distinction between compromise and overcompromise, because I think, again, we do an all or nothing thing and we're like, oh, never compromise, never compromise. But that's not really realistic because if you're going to be with another person or other people, everyone has to compromise. Nobody gets their way all the time. So it's more about like being aware, maintaining awareness of your compromises.

39:43Because then if you say, oh, I'm doing this so that we can just not bigger. It's not really that big of a deal. But I know what I'm giving up as opposed to automatically, like kind of coasting on autopilot and just being whatever anyone else tells you to be. You don't want to become like this kind of automatic chameleon, which was another one of the adolescent boys said, you know, he said, I've mastered it. He was like 17 years old and he was kind of proud of himself, but also kind of sad about it. Like he's like, I can be what anybody wants him to be. Just tell me what you expect and I can be it.

40:13But don't ask me what I really think. That's sad. Because he's like, because I'm not going to get it anyway. So there's no point. you know the middle is so messy right you know that's where you're saying like we want to encourage our kids to kind of navigate this messy middle and that yeah and that navigation requires like let's talk about all these different situations that are so that are so um they're so they're so messy it's interesting because in some of the other conversations for this boys series we're talking about adolescence and i think dear listener is going to be so interesting for you to come from this conversation and then think about how boys and start to change and adolescents start to become, you know, so these conversations may become more difficult, but maybe also just as important, I imagine, right, as our boys start to grow older, that we insist on having some of these conversations that become a little bit uncomfortable maybe when they're then in adolescence, etc.

41:16etc. The good news is the adolescent boys can talk about it too. It doesn't go away. They don't lose that capacity and desire. They absolutely still want to connect. Men too. That's one of the things that I mean by healthy resistance is that they continue throughout their lives to seek connections and resist disconnections. So if you use that framework, and it actually has served me really well in the past 30 years, because you use a framework and then if you find like, oh, that doesn't really hold up, then you kind of, you know, edit or adjust and modify. But this is one, you know, that started with Carol Gilligan's work that has really helped me in my personal relationships as well as my professional work is this idea that people are really primarily motivated to connect.

42:02And when you see their behaviors as efforts to connect, it gives, it casts a new light on, you know, kind of things that, you know, especially for adolescent boys, what might look like standoffish behavior or indifference or even belligerence. Like if you look at it as they're trying to connect in the ways that feel acceptable to them or in the only ways they've ever been taught or in the ways that, you know, what they feel they have access to, like what they're able to do in that moment, because they've been so many restrictions and constraints have been placed on them and that are, and And it's been all done, like, wrapped in, like, this package of shame.

42:41Like, oh, if you don't stay this course, this very narrow, rigid course of masculinity, the shame cascade, you know, it's an avalanche of shame. Like, oh, what are you? You're not a real boy. You're not a real man. Nobody's ever going to love you. You're not worthy. You're not, you know. And it goes so quickly that it almost is like a, you know, a subconscious process, right? So they don't even realize why it feels so bad to try to step outside of their comfort zone. But they know that not only will other people call them on it, but they'll also feel that it'll impact their own self-esteem and the way they see themselves.

43:17Like, oh my gosh, I'm nothing because I can't even do this. So they're really, really hard on themselves. And so to kind of give them a break, you know what I mean? And to see that, you know, and also just, and I see this in adults. And so I feel like it applies to adolescents as well. But I'm 53. And I look around and I say, 50-some-year-olds? We are still just kids in bigger bodies. We're all just like kids in bigger bodies. And I feel like adolescents are too. And so why we would think that a 14 or 18-year-old is all grown up and doesn't need our help, I don't understand that at all. Because if a 55-year-old needs help sometimes, then a 15-year-old can need help too.

43:59and we all kind of, you know, we need our relationships. One of the things I start my course with at Stanford is I say, no one succeeds alone. No one. We all need help sometimes. And so then I ask them to reflect on who helped you to get to or become where and who you are today. And then they can call on that. And that's their network of support. And that's how they know they're not alone in the world because all the people that help to shape who they are, it gives them strength. You know, whereas, you know, our culture tends to prize, oh, self-sufficient. I'm a self-made person. You know, I got here all by myself.

44:37That just, it just can't possibly be true. At the very least, when you're a baby, you're not making it in this world by yourself, right? And so we rely on other people. And that's true throughout the life course. So a 65-year-old, an 80-year-old, we need people as much as we did when we were young. And to deny that fact is to deny ourselves something as basic as water and air. We need companionship. We need to be with others. We need to know that we are worthy. Come back again to Mr. Rogers, to know that we are worthy and lovable. I think that's at the basis of a lot of our behaviors and sometimes the behaviors come across as you know sadly actually putting putting people off or pushing them away again because of what we're told you know one of the things that I that I kind of imply or suggest is that boys are told that if you go on this trajectory if you project this image of masculinity and do what society tells you or boys are taught this right then people will value you and accept you approve, want to be with you, etc.

45:42But ironically, or unfortunately, when they do those things of this kind of conventional masculinity that says, I have to do it myself, I have to be self-sufficient, I can't ask for help, I can't reveal any vulnerability, they inadvertently prevent themselves from developing the kinds of emotionally close relationships that they got on that path in the first place for, right? So they were motivated to connect, but those ways of demonstrating masculinity actually makes it harder for them to develop the kinds of connections that they say they need and want. And so we really put them in a bind. It's this really difficult dilemma.

46:23And so if we can, back to your question about how do we talk to boys about this? Again, they know what's going on. You know, they're incredibly astute and smart and they're insightful and they are navigating some really challenging and conflicting dilemmas and advice. They're hearing contradictory things. Even like, I think in response to one of the questions you sent, I was, you know, in terms of reimagining boyhood, I'm like, we don't even have to like re-imagine it, like just create something anew. We're really just remembering and returning to things we already know. So for instance, if the conventional masculinity or the hegemonic masculinity emphasizes this kind of tough guy, real guy, and that's kind of the default, right?

47:03When we say, oh, what does it mean to man up and be a real man? We have this whole like kind of muscular, you're strong, you're tough, you're emotionally, you know, you don't need anybody. But if you say, okay, well, what if you say this man, he's a really good man, or he was a great guy, or, and saying this eulogy. This person was a really great, good man. We know that too. We usually mean he cared about people. He took care of people. He was loyal. He was responsible. He showed up. He made people feel good about themselves. He was honest. We have that in our repertoire as well. So it's not even that we have to somehow conjure up this new image of masculinity.

47:44We have examples of really good men around as well. And so what we can do is make it so that those are the first hits in our Google search. You know what I mean? Like in our mental Google search. Like when we say, oh, what does it mean to be a man? And I see that more and more actually these days with students and things like that. Like when I do an exercise that asks them about masculinity, it's creeping up more. It doesn't automatically default to this kind of Marlboro man like this, you know, lone cowboy out on the ranch doesn't need anybody. They also say, you know, he loves children. He takes care of the planet.

48:18He's respectful to his partner. He, you know, all these things. And so we know those things. Yeah, yeah. It's interesting because, like, you know, we know that the founding fathers, right, who are, I don't know. They seem very masculine in my point of view, but they had these very intimate, close relationships with other men. I know that back in the colonial days, men walked down the street holding hands with their male friends and things like that. And it's always something that has been here. And I love your example of what is a good man that is in our repertory. We know what that is. Yeah. Judy Chu.

48:55This is amazing. Judy Chu's book is When Boys Become Boys, Development, Relationships, and Masculinity. And you can find it anywhere books are sold. And it's fascinating, especially all these like little conversations that you have recorded from the four and five year olds are just, they're amazing. But such a great resource. Thank you so much. This has been such a fascinating conversation. I really, really appreciate you sharing your knowledge and your research and doing this work. It's really a gift to all of us. Thank you. Thank you so much. I really appreciated your questions and your listening and all that you do to help parents provide for their kids what their kids need.

49:41I mean, it's hard. Parenting is hard. And so we can all use all the help we can get. So thank you for all that you do.

49:52This episode is so fascinating, isn't it? To hear about how societal pressures shape boys and how they come into these gender norms, maybe willingly or unwillingly. And yeah, so fascinating. Really, really interesting. If you have any thoughts about it, I'd love to hear it. Tag me. I'm at MindfulMamaMentor on the socials. And you can always reach out to me at hello at mindfulmamamentor.com. We'd love to hear from you. And I hope you liked this What Boys Need series. You can also listen to last week's episode, Decoding Boys with Dr. Kara Natterson, talking about puberty-aged boys, and then How to Talk to Boys with Joanna Schroeder, which is so fascinating and so practical.

50:43Really, really love that episode. So make sure you tune into that. And if you have a boy who has maybe has some ADHD issues, you're definitely going to want to be here for next week's episode, The Truth About Executive Function, Supporting Neurodiverse Kids to Thrive with Seth Perler. Really great. And we'd love it if you subscribe. Make sure you're subscribed to the show. We're a small and mighty team working to bring this to you. And when you subscribe and when you share it, you make it possible for us to keep bringing this podcast to you. So please do those things. Leave a review. Those reviews are always so wonderful.

51:19They really help a lot. And I'm wishing you a great month, a great year. And, you know, you can get get raising good humans. It's a good present. And all those good things. I hope you have a good week and that this podcast helps you have a better week. Thank you for listening all the way to the end here. I really appreciate it. I'll be back to talk to you again next week. Namaste.