In short
Parenting through uncertainty by reducing guilt and irritability, staying emotionally regulated, and building steadiness through connection, predictability, and meaning (narrative, ritual, purpose).
Guest
Suzan Song, psychiatrist and author of Why We Suffer and How We Heal. Background spans psychiatry, anthropology, and global mental health; clinical and policy work with children and families in humanitarian crises, including forcibly displaced families in refugee settings and asylum-seeker/torture-survivor communities in the U.S. She later became a mother in her 40s and has two children (ages 8 and 10 in the episode).
Key claims
Most children in war/refugee contexts do not develop lifelong harm if they have physical security plus predictability, continuity/mastery, and a regulated adult. “Resilience” can excuse systems; children thrive with the right guidance. U.S. parenting systems overload parents without supports (“a village” is missing). Connection/belonging (“mattering”) is a core human need.
Notable examples
Zaatari refugee camp (Jordan) work with UNICEF/IMC—after one year, improved food distribution, schooling, and child-friendly spaces reduced dysregulation. Her own pandemic/divorce/house-fire experience—she used narrative, rituals (minivan schedule, bedtime stories, Saturday movies), and purpose to help her kids; her daughter later said, “We can do hard things when we’re together.”
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOIntroducing Suzan Song
0:45 to 1:52
Hunter introduces guest Suzan Song, her background, and expertise.
“This is the episode you want to listen to if you want to feel seen and what's happening with us here in the United States and how we are parenting.”
Understanding Children's Needs in Crisis
1:52 to 3:15
Suzan shares insights from her work with forcibly displaced children and families.
“I'm interested to talk to you because your career spans psychiatry, anthropology, and global mental health.”
Lessons from Refugee Camps
3:15 to 5:08
Suzan describes her experiences in a refugee camp and how it informs local parenting.
“Early on in my career is working in a Zatari refugee camp in Jordan.”
Key Needs for Children to Thrive
5:08 to 6:03
Discussion on predictability, structure, and the role of regulated adults for children.
“And so it really showed to me, of course, everyone needs physical security.”
Misconceptions About Trauma
6:03 to 7:37
The conversation addresses misconceptions about children in war zones versus those in the U.S.
“Well, that's fascinating that even in a war zone, even in a place where you're in a refugee camp, yeah, it's interesting.”
The Role of Connection in Thriving
7:37 to 9:06
Suzan discusses the importance of connection and support systems for children.
“And they do so with a sense of, I don't know, like almost grace, like this sense of groundedness.”
Balancing Work and Motherhood
9:06 to 12:42
Suzan shares her personal experiences balancing her global work and motherhood.
“And it was just so wonderful to see this, like kind of just this little snippet of life from somebody who had gone through so much and to see something beautiful, I guess, come out of that.”
Parenting Through Experience
14:58 to 19:09
Suzan Song discusses her experiences working with children in refugee camps and how these shape her parenting perspective.
“relaxed as a mother knowing you're like, okay, I've worked with these kids in these refugee camps.”
The System’s Impact on Parenting
19:10 to 21:00
Suzan explains how societal systems affect parenting and the unrealistic expectations placed on parents today.
“Because society has dumped parenting and raising children onto one, maybe two, if you're lucky, two people.”
Community and Class Differences
21:01 to 23:10
Discussion on how socioeconomic status affects access to community support in parenting.
“It's interesting, too, because I was thinking about it and in the way we've or we're also really encouraged to, I mean, especially someone like you, like an academic, right?”
Show all 18 chapters
Creating Interdependent Communities
23:11 to 24:34
Examining the need for relational interdependence and creating supportive communities for parents.
“But we can be more relationally interdependent.”
The Need for Belonging
24:35 to 25:36
Suzan highlights the importance of belonging for both adults and children as a fundamental human need.
“from both the refugee camps and here in contemporary modern day United States?”
The Importance of Community and Connection
28:01 to 29:50
Explore the significance of community and real-life connections in parenting.
“My girls were involved in all girls scout troops that are, you know, they're still involved and give them this sense of community.”
Embracing Instability in Parenting
29:51 to 32:15
Learn how acknowledging turmoil can help in parenting and resilience.
“That, to me, seems more innovated right now.”
Using Narrative, Ritual, and Purpose
32:16 to 38:27
Discover how narrative, rituals, and a sense of purpose can guide parenting through challenges.
“extreme human rights violations and egregious human rights violations to the more common, ordinary daily life stressors.”
Connecting Through Difficult Times
38:28 to 42:00
Find out how to connect with children and ease parental guilt during tough times.
“I had my close friends who were there to support.”
Embracing Self-Compassion in Parenting
42:00 to 43:29
Learn the importance of easing up on self-expectations as a parent.
“parent could know about staying connected and healing in a difficult time?”
Concluding Thoughts with Suzanne Song
43:29 to 43:57
Suzanne Song shares insights about her book and her journey.
“Thank you so much for coming on the Mindful Mama podcast.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Hunter Clarke-Fields:You're listening to the Mindful Mama podcast episode 590. Today, we're talking about parenting through uncertainty with Suzan Song.
0:12Hunter Clarke-Fields:Welcome to the Mindful Mama podcast. Here, it's about becoming a less irritable, more joyful parent. At Mindful Mama, we know that you cannot give what you do not have, and when you have calm and peace within, then you can give it to your children. I'm your host, Hunter Clark-Fields. I help smart, thoughtful parents stay calm so they can have strong, connected relationships with their children. I've been practicing mindfulness for over 25 years. I'm the creator of the Mindful Parenting course and teacher training, and I'm the author of the international bestseller, Raising Good Humans, Raising Good Humans Every Day, and the Raising Good Humans Guided Journal.
0:52Hunter Clarke-Fields:Hello, welcome back. I'm so glad you are here. This is the episode you want to listen to if you want to feel seen and what's happening with us here in the United States and how we are parenting. We are going to be talking to Susan Song, a psychiatrist and author, author of Why We Suffer and How We Heal. We're going to talk about letting go of guilt, staying connected and finding steadiness, even with all the uncertainties of life. We get a fascinating global perspective about what children actually need to feel safe, you know, across cultures and even crises. So we're going to talk about that, emotional regulation, perfectionism.
1:37Hunter Clarke-Fields:We're going to hear lessons from refugee families and apply that to our everyday parenting. So join me at the table as I talk to Susan Song.
1:51Hunter Clarke-Fields:Well, Suzanne, welcome to the Mindful Mama podcast. I'm so glad you're here. Thanks so much for having me. I'm interested to talk to you because your career spans psychiatry, anthropology, and global mental health. You've worked with children and families in some of the most extreme settings around the world. And I'm wondering how did your experience with forcibly displaced children and families shape your understanding about what children and parents truly need to feel safe and connected? Yeah, thank you. You know, there's a common belief that kids and families living in war, armed conflict, refugee camps, that they are severely traumatized and they will have lifelong consequences.
2:38and while it's true that there are a small number of kids who will have you know lifelong long-term effects from these humanitarian contexts the research actually shows that most kids do just fine well and so those are the kids that i'm very interested in like how do people actually thrive amongst all the instability when they actually shouldn't it seems like for all you It seems like they shouldn't be because of the context that they're living in. And so that's formed the basis of much of my work. I'll give you an example. Early on in my career is working in a Zatari refugee camp in Jordan. This was at the very early starts of the Syrian crisis.
3:25I was there with UNICEF and IMC working with displaced Syrian adolescents and their caregivers in this refugee camp. and it really shaped my thinking around how we work with kids and families here actually locally. So in this refugee camp, it was only one year old and so there was a lot of chaos there. Like their food distribution sites weren't set up well. They were still arguing over tents versus caravans for housing. So caravans are more structured. They're safer. Kids were not going to school. And so you had a lot of kids who were sad, they were scared, they really, really missed their friends and families and teachers from back home.
4:08And there's a lot of violence there in the camp. And the parents also had no idea how to take care of these kids and what they're supposed to do all day long. And they couldn't access basic things like services and how to get food for their kids. Now, a year later, I came back to do another assessment. And it was still a war situation. We're still right next to the Syrian border. You could still hear the bombs. You could see the planes going up ahead. But things had shifted. And now the food distribution sites were safer. They're more regular. Kids were back in school. There were child-friendly spaces that were set up.
4:44So kids could go there during the day. And kids were still sad, but they weren't dysregulated. And the parents and caregivers, when I spoke to them, it shifted too. They were now talking about like their kids doing homework and they're talking about the service that they were able to access. And so the parents were also more regulated and therefore able to take care of their kids. And so it really showed to me, of course, everyone needs physical security. That's like a basic human rights need. But kids need enough predictability so that they can regulate. And they need enough of a sense of continuity that they can build a sense of mastery and dignity, that they're not just some aid recipients, but they have something to give.
5:33and then they need, I know you talk about this quite a bit on your podcast, they need a regulated adult to help them make sense of what's going on in the world. And I think those are basic needs. And I think we can take that and put that in any context, whether it's here going through the pandemic or through all the turmoil we're going through right now. Kids need predictability and structure. They need a sense of mastery and dignity. And they need a regulated adult. that they can spend time with and talk to. Well, that's fascinating that even in a war zone,
6:10Hunter Clarke-Fields:even in a place where you're in a refugee camp, yeah, it's interesting. I mean, I think from the point of view of, you know, kind of a, you know, 2026 person who's aware of the teens struggling here in the United States with mental health and all the dysregulation, depression and anxiety and all of these different things, I would imagine that they would have so much later sort of lasting trauma and dysregulation, even, you know, so much more so than, I don't know, a teen living in 2026 United States. But you're saying that's not true. No, and I think it's a misconception and it does a disservice to the kids because, you know, There used to be a lot of talk around this lost generation of Syrian kids.
7:01After every war, there's a lost generation of kids. And I don't see that, actually. I see kids as—and I don't like the term resilient because it— The term resilient to me is almost a cop-out for the systems and structures in place that made kids—that forced kids to be resilient in the first place. So I don't actually like that term that much. But kids with the right sort of guidance and structures, the basic structures, they can thrive among chaotic instability. And they do so with a sense of, I don't know, like almost grace, like this sense of groundedness. But they need to feel connected to something, something and someone larger themselves.
7:51Hunter Clarke-Fields:And have you followed up with these kids later in life? Is that possible for kids in such a difficult, you know, I imagine they're going all kinds of different places. Yeah, not so much. So a lot of times I work with kids on the move. So they're constantly on the move in different transit settings. But I do work a lot, you know, here in the U.S., I work with a lot of asylum seekers and survivors of torture. And so I've seen them for, you know, 10 years. And you do see the progress and you see the progression of not just their mental health symptoms, but their sense of self, right? Their sense of worth, their dignity, and how they actually really do thrive and flourish when they feel a sense of competence and mastery in the world.
9:06Hunter Clarke-Fields:That's beautiful. beautiful sculpture. It was gorgeous. And it was just so wonderful to see this, like kind of just this little snippet of life from somebody who had gone through so much and to see something beautiful, I guess, come out of that. Yeah. Wow. I mean, I'm so curious. I mean, I have all these questions, but also like you have two children, they're eight, they're 10. Were you doing this work around the world when your children were young? Have they been traveling with you doing this kind of thing? No. So I had kids later in life, like closer to 40s. And so I had a very full career. This was my work in the humanitarian sector for a good 15 years before I had kids.
9:54So just about every month I was in a different – I started off doing post-conflict work and then it was more in current active work. environments. And I always told myself, like, I knew I wanted to have children eventually. And I always told myself, oh, when I have kids, of course, I'll take them with me. Like, there are babies in refugee camps, too. I'll just wear them and they'll be fine. And of course, then I became pregnant. And I, there's small things. I didn't want to take malaria pills while I was pregnant. And then I was, when my daughter, my first child, my daughter was nine months old.
10:30I also had a study that I was running in, where was I, the Congo, in the DRC. And the study was actually working with women who've experienced major assaults, and it was doing an intervention with them, but also the outcomes were on their babies and looking at outcomes for their babies on nutrition and growth. And their babies were nine-month-old. So my baby was nine-month-old, and I feel like I'm doing this study with nine-month-old babies in the Congo. and I had to go travel there to conduct the study. And I was nursing at the time. I didn't feel ready to wean yet. And so I remember calling my pediatrician.
11:14I said, is it okay if I nurse other babies like in the Congo just to keep my supply up? He was like, what are you talking about?
11:22Hunter Clarke-Fields:These crazy liberal doctors, what are they trying to do? But you see it there. So I do these focus groups of these women who don't know each other, but they're so used to having babies that, you know, they would have a group of eight women who don't know each other and someone would have a baby and they just pass the baby around the circle and nurse them. I mean, it's perfectly normal human behavior probably for like 99 of the last 100 ,000 years, you know, 99 whatever thousand. But yeah, it's a different world today, I guess. Yeah. So what did your doctor say? Well, so he said, I guess so. I mean, there's really no downside, I guess, to you.
12:03But it means that you would probably have to wean your baby because I don't know that she would take the breast again. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? And I decided I didn't want to do that. I wasn't ready yet. And I'm not a breast is best type. You know, like, fed is fed. But I just wanted to continue. yeah and so I had to shut down I had to train up other people and I basically shut down so slowly my identity I mean I think motherhood crumbles our identity especially with a first child but it really impacted my global work because I wasn't willing to take some of the risks that I did before yeah yeah and so I did shut down quite a bit and it's only in recently I mean I still was I stepped more into policy over the past 10 years.
12:56Hunter Clarke-Fields:Stay tuned for more Mindful Mama podcasts right after this break. As we get older and our kids get older, keeping up with the schedules can be so hard. My daughter Sora has been doing the tech for the play, Mamma Mia. There's a lot to do and we're busy. And that's why I really love the Kozilla Calendar Plus 2. You get your calendars, your to-do lists, and your reminders all in one place and not in, yes, it's in your phone in your pocket, but it's on in a centralized place in your house. So it's a beautiful frame. It has a calendar sync to keep everybody's calendars up to date, real time, avoiding conflicts.
13:41Hunter Clarke-Fields:and we don't have to like crane our head necks down and pull out these objects to check it. We can all do all the planning and we can do event creation all in one place together. It even has a reward system to encourage kids independence and meal planning. I mean, it's great and it really supports kids who are developing independence and you can have independence without having the you know device in your pocket kids who have ADHD can benefit from structured routines and you get this large display that is really easy to use seamless easy syncing there's also flexible size options really a different way to do it to make things simpler to really reduce the mental load in the house to manage schedules and encourage kids responsibility and just coordinate family life so it is less stressful go to kozilla.com and use the code hunter to get $30 off your first order at checkout that's c-o-z-y-l-a.com to get$30 off your first order with the promo code hunter okay one more one more personal question though too like also did it think you feel more relaxed as a mother knowing you're like, okay, I've worked with these kids in these refugee camps.
15:09Hunter Clarke-Fields:I've identified they need some semblance of regularity. They need to have some competency and they need to have one regulated adult. Did it help you just, I mean, to have, I guess, that broader knowledge as the foundation going into parenting. I mean, most of us were so I don't know I mean I was so anxious and I was like oh my god I don't want to mess up my child and we're giving ourselves so much importance that we make ourselves worse as parents because then we're so anxious right yes um did did it help you right size things going into motherhood oh I wish it did it if I'm honest I think like I was a pretty ambitious person before career-wise and and then when I had my child like I'm a child and family psychiatrist right so that's kind of my thing.
16:02Like I love kids and families. And so like, I shifted all of my ambition and all that energy towards now my children. But how it has helped me is I work with a lot of mothers. I work with a lot of moms, some stay-at-home moms, a lot of CEOs and like high flyers. And I see the same thread, which is that mothers are so hard on themselves about the smallest things. Like, I couldn't get my kid into the right camp or whatever foreign language or whatever it is. And that's when I have to step back and say, okay, there are kids who really do have good outcomes, even despite some of the most horrible situations.
16:50And so that does help to reframe some of the perspective. And I do try to use that, of course, myself in my own parenting.
16:58Hunter Clarke-Fields:Wow. I mean, I guess I'm wondering about those experiences, you know, like for these kids, they've survived war and displacement and trauma. Suzanne, you bridge clinical care, humanitarian crises, and public policy. And you mentioned systems, right? Not just the individual. And it's interesting because like in our, in this podcast, we're speaking to individuals because we want to know what can we do, but there's so much more to what's going on in parenting. How has seeing the systems rather than just the individual families helped you think differently about the pressures and expectations that parents are facing today?
17:36Yeah, I mean, if anyone out there is raising children in the United States, it is so hard to raise kids in this country. We have designed a society that is essentially forcing parents to function without the supports that it actually needs to have a family thrive. You know, whether it's having flexible work or affordable child care or a community of belonging that can help support or just the time to spend with families, our system is essentially set up for failure when it comes to raising a family. And so I think it's strange that so many people are surprised when parents are burnt out or they're irritable or they feel like they're failing.
18:26Of course they are because that's how the system is set up. And I think it's really, it was blatantly obvious during the pandemic. So during the pandemic, I was seeing so many parents who were working full-time and also taking care of their children full-time at the same time in the same house. Doing both badly. Yes, yes, yes. And they were so hard on themselves because they weren't as productive as they wanted to be at work and they weren't as patient as they wanted to be with their children. And so they were just kept falling short, telling themselves they're falling short and they're feeling guilty and ashamed and not, quote, good enough.
19:09And that's just completely unrealistic, right? Because society has dumped parenting and raising children onto one, maybe two, if you're lucky, two people. Like, typically, let's just face it, it's the mom most of the time. And that one person is expected to do the role of, like, three or four people in this country. And it's not the case in so many other parts of the world. Like, you've heard this term of it takes a village to raise kids. It really does. And we don't have that village built into our society and the structures.
19:46Hunter Clarke-Fields:We can't even understand it. Like, I remember not even understanding that saying because it just didn't make any sense to me. But yeah, it happens all around the world. My friend lives in the Netherlands and had free child care from the moment her child was born. Yes. I was like, what? And it's so funny because, you know, as we record this, this whole date, the recording, but there's a lot to talk about Greenland. And like, man, they get so many great subsidies from their government to help them raise their kids. Why would they want to? Yes. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Yes, but when we put so much of the responsibility on one person, that one person has to be—I can't tell you the number of times I've had parents tell me they feel so bad because they don't want to play with their kid all day long.
20:33Like, of course they don't want to. Nobody wants to play with their child all day long. It's tedious and boring at many times. Like, and in so many parts of the world, parents don't play with their kids. The kids go off and they play with lots of siblings and cousins and they've got aunties and uncles and they have so many other people around them that the parent is not having to do every single role for that child. And that's what we have here, unfortunately. It's interesting, too, because I was thinking about it and in the way we've or we're also
21:09Hunter Clarke-Fields:really encouraged to, I mean, especially someone like you, like an academic, right? You're really encouraged to go anywhere there's a job. You're encouraged to leave your hometown. And people are encouraged to just go move to a new state and a new town. But then we have no support network, maybe even no friends, no family, all of that thing. But it's interesting because then the very wealthy, right? Like we have so many more extremely wealthy people now. I'm reading this crazy book, The Haves and the Have Yachts, which are about this growing class of really extremely wealthy people. And if you're very wealthy, you can just pay to replace all the needs.
21:58Hunter Clarke-Fields:You can get the nanny. You can get the house cleaner. You can get someone to drive you. Or even if, you know, all of those things you can replace, like by purchasing, buying all that community back, right? And if you have less money, a lot of times you don't leave home, right? You stay near your community and then you have that kind of community maybe around you. Maybe mom is still in the same town. Maybe dad is, you know, that kind of thing. So there's maybe more support network. Maybe you haven't gone as far. Maybe you still have friends from growing up. But then the people that suffer the most are, you know, frankly, a lot of people that listen to this podcast, right?
22:38Hunter Clarke-Fields:Like, we've done surveys and we have a highly educated listenership. And if you're educated, if you're doing, working, you know, a job in education or, you know, in the corporate world, anyway, you make enough money to have some things and maybe to live by yourself and live away from your family of origin. but then you don't have enough money to replace that whole community. And so sometimes it's like, really like the people in the middle class who are really squeezed by the structures of at least the United States or country, where then you have to play all of the roles. Yeah, you're exactly right.
23:17I think that's why there's so many people who are just craving to matter to others and to be part of a community, part of a sense of belonging, because they don't have the right structures in place to be able to thrive in community. And it's missing hugely. But we can be more relationally interdependent. I think that's one thing. A lot of my work is in very low-resourced settings. So people might call them communal societies or villages where everyone's dependent on everyone else. And so they almost like romanticize that. Like we think of all these communal societies. I wish we could be part of that.
24:02One reason why they're communal is because they don't have enough money to have all the things. So they have to share toys. They have to share food. And like it's they're dependent on each other. And so I think the challenge for many of us is to figure out, well, how can we still be interdependent on one another? and who can we bring into our, quote, village and intentionally create the right type of community and relationships that we want and we need. And I think it is possible, but it requires a lot of intention.
24:34Hunter Clarke-Fields:So is that something you're seeing sort of in the crossover of needs from both the refugee camps and here in contemporary modern day United States? Is that we need that support and that strategy of, or not strategy, that support of community for not only just the logistical support things, but also for our mental and emotional stability. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think having a sense of belonging is a basic fundamental human need for adults and then also for our children. Our children need to feel like they belong somewhere, belong in the family unit. They have to feel they belong in a peer group, in a neighborhood or wherever, but they need to feel a sense of belonging to know that they matter to someone else.
25:25That is a core need. And I think so many of us, when we talk about the loneliness epidemic, I almost see it more as if an epidemic of mattering. I don't know that we feel like we matter to someone else. And that's really important for us.
25:47Hunter Clarke-Fields:Stay tuned for more Mindful Mama podcasts right after this break.
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26:54Hunter Clarke-Fields:Yeah, it's really fascinating because I'm thinking about it. Like for me in the last three years of my life, I've become, let's see, yeah, three years, four years maybe. I've been really got really involved in a community. I do Scottish country dancing. I'm obsessed with it. I do lots of different events. And but it's an incredibly close community. Like I've become part of this incredibly close community where there are people like now I know if I went to I went to New York, if I went to Boston, if I went to California, I would be able to find people in that community and connect with them. Right.
27:36Hunter Clarke-Fields:Or the people in that community here are checking in on me and wondering how I'm doing and things like that. So I'm thinking about how that community has given me such a sense of belonging and that village sense. They all came up, a whole bunch of people came over and helped me paint my bedroom one day, which is something that hasn't happened in a long time.
28:00Hunter Clarke-Fields:And I'm thinking about the things that give my kids that sense of belonging and community. My girls were involved in all girls scout troops that are, you know, they're still involved and give them this sense of community. And I think you're right. Like we, I don't know, but all the structures of our society are set up to like, A, we're so dang busy. Like we're so busy. If you have an eight and 10 year home, you're probably so busy driving places and doing all the different things that that then when it comes to something like social connection, people then take the the easier, you know, the the the less nourishing, but quick and easy and convenient, kind of like the Doritos of community, right?
28:47Hunter Clarke-Fields:Like the Facebook scroll instead of the real thing. I mean, I guess that's what you see that, too. imagine. Yeah. And I think, you know, just mentioning the social media, I do think that that has really shaped our, I mean, it's shaped both our sense of personal and private. I think those lines are now, those barriers are, boundaries are much more porous now. But I think there's also this replacement of a false intimacy. Like we see these things on social media and we think that we know them so well, or we just feel more intimate than we actually are. And that's actually dangerous because we're actually not that intimate.
29:31And in real life, we don't have those same sorts of depth of relationships and people that we can rely on if something happens. So I think it does go back to the basics. I mean, everyone talks about innovation and innovative ideas are mostly tech ideas. I see innovation now going the other way. Like, how can we be more human? That, to me, seems more innovated right now.
29:55Hunter Clarke-Fields:I mean, I guess you've had this experience, this very vast experience. What are some universal truths about connection? And I know you don't love the word, but resilience in children that cross cultures and countries and crises, right? Are there parenting practices that work everywhere, even in really drastically different environments? Yeah, I don't think there are parenting practices or behaviors per se, because that will vary widely across cultures. But I think the principle is the same in that children need to know that they are not alone in the world. And that's basically it. And so any sort of practice that embodies that spirit, I think children need to know that they matter to someone, that their voice matters, and they have someone who cares for them and is able to help them manage through the world.
30:54In large part, and as many people know, the neurobiology of children's limbic systems are more fully developed, right? So they're going to need a little bit more guidance and assistance on the emotional support side. And that's something that we can do as adults.
31:09Hunter Clarke-Fields:So they, you know, they need that person who lights up when they come home, sees them and lights up. You, in your book, you have a book called Why We Suffer and How We Heal. And it explores meaning and narrative and ritual and connection. Can you share examples about how a parent might use these ideas in daily life with their kids or maybe for themselves to navigate this. I mean, things feel pretty uncertain now. So what are ways that people can sort of insert maybe a dose of that meaning narrative or ritual? Yeah. So the book was written because I had so many people here that were friends, family, patients who are all going through very similar situations on how to manage through loss and grief and changes and turmoil.
32:08And so I looked across my 20 years of practice working with a variety of people from the extremes, the spectrum of extreme human rights violations and egregious human rights violations to the more common, ordinary daily life stressors. And what I found was the people who were able to thrive the most were the ones who were able to embrace the instability in our lives, right? The people who weren't trying to avoid turmoil at all costs, because that's what we all want to do. I mean, how many times have I said like, oh, I just can't wait till life is stable again. But stability is an illusion, right?
32:50We are all human. And as such, we're going to experience this sort of turmoil in our lives. And so the more that we can embrace it and say, okay, it's happening, what can we do to help the next time the inevitable up and down happens? And so the book shows how we can embrace the instability using what I call the three friends of winter. These are the narrative, ritual, purpose. And they can serve almost as a psychosocial vaccine to inoculate us from the really negative effects of the turmoil that we will experience in life because life is challenging. So to your question, so in practice, I'll use myself as an example.
33:34So my kids were three and four during the pandemic. When they turned five and six, I divorced. And on my one-year divorce anniversary, I had a house fire. And we lost everything. So now I was a single mom of two young kids. And all they had were the clothes they were wearing and the shoes they had and their backpack. Oh, God. Suzanne.
33:59Hunter Clarke-Fields:Oh, no. Yeah. So for 18 months, we were displaced. And I was just about out of my mind. I was still working full-time and taking care of them full-time. And so the first tool is narrative. The narratives are stories and explanations that we have about what's going on in the world or what's happened to us. So my narrative was essentially, I effed up my children's life. Like I have basically ruined their life. Like we had the pandemic, so they're in social isolation. And then I blew up their Daniel Tiger notion of a family. and then I literally, I mean, their life is literally in flames. And so I have now caused this lifelong damage to them.
34:45And in thinking that way, I went into the shame spiral of like, I am a horrible mother. Like, why do I even have kids? I shouldn't be allowed to have kids, like that kind of a thing. And I realized early on, I really had to check that narrative because it was debilitating. And so I told myself, now I was working, you know, as a professor at Harvard and I also work for a think tank for Save the Children. And my work is all the humanitarian sector at the time. And so I said, you know, I work and study with displaced children and families. And here I am now displaced. Yeah. I know how to do this.
35:24Like, I know what's most important is for the kids to feel a sense of security and safety and to feel loved, to have someone who's attuned to them. I know I can do this. And so it changed my narrative from one of shame towards one of empowerment. Like I'm competent, I can do this. Right? So that's narrative. Rituals, rituals are essentially a set of behaviors that have some meaning to them. And rituals are very important in scaffolding our emotions. That's why so many cultures have a ritual after someone dies because we need something to scaffold our experience. And so I knew that predictability and structure was important for the kids.
36:10So we basically lived in the minivan from 7 a.m. until 8 p.m. And I kept all of their extracurricular activities. I still had playdates. And then I kept up our rituals. So every night we still did bedtime stories. And then every Saturday we that are family movies just to show that we have this predictable schedule, but also our family values are showing up in our rituals, right? That we're here for each other, we care for each other. So those are the rituals. And then purpose. So purpose is something of meaning that's larger than oneself. For me, that purpose guided all of my energies during that time.
36:56I had to, because it was a total loss house fire, I had to redesign a house. Now, I am really bad at design and anything. I have no artistic sense. So I had to design a house and then also furnish a whole new house. So I had to design a house while I was working in this refugee camp in post-genocide Tigre. And I was running all around neighborhoods trying to get free chairs and sofas from these buy nothing groups. And my energy was so spent. I didn't know how I should be spending my time or what was most important until I zoned in on my purpose. My purpose was very clear. It's to help my children get through this as best possible, right?
37:41To make sure that I am attuned to them so that they know that they're loved and safe and secure. That was my purpose. That made it so easy to guide all my behaviors and all my actions, Because I would just say, do I want to do this? Well, does it align with my purpose? If so, I do it. If not, I don't. And it really helped me shift from responsibility being a burden to my responsibility to them was now a privilege that I am actually very thankful for, that I got to be the person that helped them through this extremely difficult time. And so those are the three friends of winter, the narrative ritual and purpose in practice.
38:22I call them three friends because we heal in relation with others. So I had communities. I had my close friends who were there to support. And we actually moved into the house a year ago. And so over the summer, I was just talking with my daughter, and I was kind of feeling bad about everything she'd been through. So one of our bedtime nights talks, I just thought she was nine. I said, you know, you've been through so much. Like, I'm sorry. You know, you've had all these things going on in such a short amount of time. This is not what I wanted for you. And she got really quiet. And she looked at me and she was so sweet.
39:03She said, yeah, mom, it was really hard. But you know what? We can do hard things when we're together. Oh. And I thought, okay, she's going to be fine. Right? She has learned something through all of this, which is that she can do hard things. And she doesn't have to do it all alone. And that's the best I could ask for.
39:27Hunter Clarke-Fields:Wow. Wow. What an incredibly hard time that was for you. You're out of the country. You're with your children and then a fire and a divorce. I mean, God, that's like the top five life. Yes. Well, and I was actually also writing the book. I had no idea. So the book is in three parts, and those three parts happened to be the parts when I was writing. So when I was writing part two, I had the house fire. Part one was when I had the divorce. So all these things were actually happening while I was writing this book. So let me see what I've learned from you, Suzanne. So the things that we really, really need are we need that, you know, you said earlier people have this relational interdependence.
40:19Hunter Clarke-Fields:And it's funny, I thought a lot of the people in the United States would see that as a negative thing, right? Like I don't want to be independent on anyone else. It's good to be independent. But the things that matter are like belonging, that sense of belonging, that sense of mattering to others. So that is that interdependence, that village. This is something that is really sort of universal in how humans thrive, right? is what I'm learning. And then what are the stories we're telling ourselves about the hard times? Can we see the thoughts? Mindfulness, right? Can we see the thoughts? Can we see the story that we're telling ourselves about this time?
41:05Hunter Clarke-Fields:And then like ritual or rhythm or, you know, just that some sense of predictability and rhythm for the steadiness for all of us like that. And I think about ritual too, it made me think of my daily meditation practice. Like that is a ritual I do six days a week that really grounds me, right? It's like, okay, I do this thing. And I do it for the purpose of peacefulness. So yeah, what I'm pulling from this is that interdependence, that belonging, the story we're telling ourselves and that sort of that rhythm and that ritual. Yeah, it's beautiful. Well, for the parent who's listening, who's feeling anxious, worn out, maybe full of guilt right now, what's one thing from all of your work around the world that you wish every parent could know about staying connected and healing in a difficult time?
42:08I would say ease up on yourself. Really, so many parents are so hard on themselves right now, because as we talked about the systems and the structures in place and the unrealistic expectations they have on themselves. So ease up on yourself and know that you have the tools to tap into, to be present, to feel a sense of groundedness, And you're allowed to feel joy at times, too. It's important. And those things don't require you to do more. They don't require any extra cost, right? These are things that you can just incorporate into your practice.
42:50Hunter Clarke-Fields:You don't have to get to the end of the to-do list before you do. Exactly. That's right. That's right. And so just to ease up, and it starts with letting go of this notion that you're doing something wrong. So many people think they're doing something wrong. They're not quite sure what sometimes even. But let go of that narrative and allow yourself to recognize that chances are you're probably doing a really great job. Yeah. Maybe ask yourself, what am I doing right? Yes. well Suzanne this has been a real pleasure to talk to you I'm so glad that you have a nice stable house now thank you me too the community um uh Suzanne Song's book is why we suffer and how we heal and you can find it anywhere books are sold I I really appreciate you coming on and I appreciate you sharing your story and all the work you do.
43:56Hunter Clarke-Fields:Thank you so much for coming on the Mindful Mama podcast. Yeah. Thanks so much for having me.
44:08Hunter Clarke-Fields:Hey, I hope you enjoyed this episode. I hope it fed you in some deep place that we need to remember and get that perspective. I think it was so, so important. And if it did give you some perspective, please do share it with a friend. That means so much to me and the team who is bringing this podcast to you. We want to help it grow and hang out and continue our decades of work to bring you this podcast. We've been doing the podcast since 2013. Isn't that crazy? Anyway, so many great episodes. If you want to learn more, go to mindfulmommamentor.com. there's a lot there. If you want to bring me to your place of work to speak, I'd love to do that.
44:56And yeah, I think this perspective getting is so, so important.
45:00Hunter Clarke-Fields:So anyhow, wishing you a beautiful week, wishing you some sunshine, some great hugs, some peaceful moments. And I'll talk to you again real soon. Namaste.
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From the publisher
So many parents feel like they’re failing — not because something is truly wrong, but because life feels messy, rushed, and uncertain.
In this episode of the Mindful Mama Podcast, Hunter Clarke-Fields speaks with Suzan Song, psychiatrist, global mental health expert, and author of Why We Suffer and How We Heal, about what children actually need to feel safe, connected, and resilient — even when life is imperfect.
Drawing from decades of work with forcibly displaced children and families in war zones and refugee camps, Suzan offers a powerful reframe for modern parenting. She explains why perfection isn’t just impossible — it’s unnecessary — and how children across cultures and crises consistently thrive through predictability, emotional regulation, dignity, and connection.
This conversation gently dismantles parental guilt and unrealistic expectations, while offering reassurance grounded in both science and lived experience. Whether you’re navigating everyday stress or deeper uncertainty, this episode reminds you that steadiness matters more than perfection — and connection matters more than control.
What You’ll Learn in This Episode
Why parents often feel like they’re failing even when nothing is “wrong"
What children truly need to feel safe across cultures and crises
How perfectionism disconnects parents from themselves and their kids
Why emotional regulation in parents supports resilience in children
Lessons from refugee families that apply to everyday parentin
How meaning, ritual, and narrative help families navigate uncertainty
Why community support is essential — and often missing — for parents
What kids need to see when parents are stressed or struggling
How to cultivate steadiness when life feels unpredictable
A small shift parents can try this week to feel more grounded
ABOUT HUNTER CLARKE-FIELDS: Hunter Clarke-Fields is the host Mindful Parenting Podcast (Top 0.5% podcast ), global speaker, number 1 bestselling author of “Raising Good Humans” and “Raising Good Humans Every Day,” Mindfulness Meditation teacher and creator of the Mindful Parenting Course and Teacher Training.
Find more podcasts, Hunter’s books, blog posts, free resources, and more at MindfulMamaMentor.com.
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