Money Box Live: Rising Water Bills

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1:27Andy White: Today on the Moneybox Live podcast, we're talking about water. It's costing more and more of you are complaining about it. In fact, hundreds of thousands of you in England and Wales complained to your water supplier just in the last year. That's up a massive 56 % on the year before. And the industry watchdog, the Consumer Council for Water, also says the number of people escalating complaints to them has rocketed 84%. That's the biggest rise in its 20-year history. And the biggest reason? It's the price.

1:58Jeevan Jones: It's disappointing and I'm fed up with getting notifications that we've got hosepipe bans and my bill's gone up twice in the last two years. Definitely notice it's a bit higher.

2:11Andy White: The price is high. I don't know actually why, but yeah, it is about like£10 a month. £10 a month more? Yeah, definitely, 100%, yeah.

2:19Jeevan Jones: I live on my own. I don't use a lot of water, but I seem to pay quite a bit for not a lot of water. It's come to a point where my parents have started having to reduce shower times, for example, or we've become a lot more careful.

2:33Andy White: Thank you to those people in Warrington for speaking to me. It is a huge conversation right now, isn't it? With the Prime Minister criticising privatisation and promising more local control and growing questions about the future of the water sector and who should be responsible for making it work. Today on Moneybox Live, we are going to wade through the issues and we want to hear from you. Have you struggled with your bills? Are you one of the many thousands of people who complained? Maybe you've got a tip for cutting water waste. Get in touch. You can email moneybox at bbc.co.uk or send us a voice note or a message on WhatsApp.

3:07Andy White: The number is 033 067 83 183. Now I'm joined today by Andy White from the Consumer Council for Water, which represents water customers in England and Wales, and Jeevan Jones, Chief Economist at Water UK, which represents the companies responsible for getting water to our homes. Hello. Hi. Good to have you both with us. Andy, let's start with you. It's a really significant rise, isn't it? Complaints to your organisation up 84 % and 115 ,000 more people complaining directly to their water company. What stood out to you in the figures?

3:43Jeevan Jones: Absolutely. I think, you know, really concerning at a time when trust in water companies is so low that we're seeing this. If this was a car, then all the lights on the dashboard would be flashing. There is something here that needs to be addressed. Obviously, there were big bill increases both this year and the previous year, which were the result of the price review and that allowing extra funding to accelerate investment in the water industry. And we know that's something customers want, but we also need to make sure that companies are delivering on that and spending that money wisely, giving value for money for customers and also support is in place for people who might struggle to pay.

4:23Andy White: Yeah, that bill increased. They rose by an average of 25 % last year, another 5.4 % this year. And that was the average. Many parts of England and Wales saw much bigger rises. Jeevan, you're here to speak for the water industry. How do you respond to this tsunami of complaints? Well, as Andy has said just there, the reason why complaints are up are because bills are up. And the reason bills are up is because we have increased investment now to the largest it's been in more than a century. And that's to build a load of reservoirs because we now need to capture more water and store it for longer.

4:55Andy White: Because they haven't been built before. Absolutely. Exactly that. Because we've had more than a decade of the system not allowing us to build reservoirs. and bills kept very, very low. And so the bill rises will give us the chance to do that investment and that comes at a price. But as Andy has said, help is available. So for those customers where that extra bill rise is too high, someone earlier mentioned an extra£10 a month, there is support available. So when I look at the report today, which is really good, it talks about the fact that 19 out of 20 people who get in touch with their water company get what they need from that, including being put on lower bills and being given the support they need.

5:30Andy White: We'll talk more about that. We'll talk more about bills. But first of all, let's hear from Arnold and Sandy, who are no strangers to complaining to their water company, Thames Water. They live in a one bedroom flat. They're on a water meter. They say they are paying way more than they think they should be. They say far more than their neighbours with larger families. They have spent years trying to get to the bottom of it.

5:49Jeevan Jones: We wouldn't complain if the bills were normal, but they weren't normal. Yeah, but there was an awful lot of filling in long forms and making our complaint.

5:59Andy White: This had been going on for several years. how much of your time do you think you've spent on this oh god i don't hours on it you know i spent

6:11Jeevan Jones: yes on it is incredibly conscientious so you know he wouldn't sort of let this go no it would be hours and hours of work on it absolutely we just kind of threw in the towel i mean you know you know we've got to get down with your life i'm kind of turned our back on it and we're spending well over a thousand pounds in water bills, although we're now 83 and retired and have grandchildren, etc. So we would rather they wouldn't be taking this money off of us. But we have no choice. I mean, we can't just dig our own well, can we?

6:42Andy White: So how has this whole process left you feeling?

6:46Jeevan Jones: Well, annoyed. Well, you know, in a way, one would like a solution, a resolution. One would like to know why, you know, even if we never get our money back, It would be interesting to know why they're charging us so much. We're not sort of swimming in our bathtub every day. I would like to know exactly how it is that this has happened.

7:06Andy White: Well, we spoke to their water company, Thames Water. It told us it investigated the property in 2018. It found no faults or leaks. And the Consumer Council for Water didn't uphold their complaint either. Andy, Arnold and Sandy have reached a dead end. They clearly feel incredibly frustrated. Are these rising complaints simply beyond your power to solve? because the government has been consulting on adding a water ombudsman that would have more power.

7:29Jeevan Jones: Yeah, so in the vast majority of cases, we can resolve cases for customers. In about 1 % of cases, you get to a stage where there is still a deadlock and we're not able to resolve that. And that's when an ombudsman would be useful and they would have the power. So rather than representing water customers like we do, they would be impartial. They'd look at the evidence and they could make a judgment on that case.

7:55Andy White: And in the meantime, customers can take their complaints to the dispute resolution ombudsman, which has agreed to take a look at Arnold and Sandy's case. Jeevan, is part of this that for years water bills were small? Most people didn't maybe really think about them. Now they're rising and your industry is just not equipped to respond to customer complaints. I mean, the amount of direct contacts that come into water companies are hundreds and thousands. And so they are being responded to all the time. when they turn into complaints and need to get passed on, then they can go to the CCW, as was talked about, but they probably do need, and you've talked about it just then, is we need a proper statutory ombudsman, which the government promised more than a year ago and still hasn't put in place.

8:37Andy White: And so once we get that, that final stage, I think that will help with the most severe cases. At the moment, we don't have that. We've got a stopgap arrangement. But if the government sets it up, I think we can get an even better system in place. But the biggest reason people are complaining is simply because of how much their water costs Now, Kim has emailed to say she's gone from being in credit every month to suddenly finding herself in debt by more than£100. She's checked for leaks. She's checked her usage. She says nothing has changed. Chief and people have seen huge hikes in their bills.

9:05Andy White: And we learned last month water companies have been given the green light to increase bills for customers by an extra£3.4 billion in coming years. Just tell our listeners what on earth is going on. The reality is that bills have been kept far too low for too long and we finally got the go ahead to invest. The extra investment, which is focused on growing the capacity to fund homes and make sure we have fewer outages, frankly, was announced a few weeks ago. It's about one or two pounds extra a year. So that is an increase. But the regulator makes sure it will only get spent on investment. And if customers need help and they can't afford that extra few pounds, then they absolutely should get the help they need for their company and get lower charges.

9:44Andy White: But people are emailing in, they're messaging in, they're talking about the big bonuses, the dividends they've seen being paid out to bosses and shareholders. and that now they're being asked to foot the bill for infrastructure costs. You can see why it's hard for people to swallow. Absolutely. And that's why the government has said the system isn't working. It's why we've said the system isn't working and why the regulator has new powers and there will be a new regulator, we hope soon, to make sure that all of these things are spent properly. And if they're not, then the customers get their money back.

10:11Andy White: Well, of course, we should also make it clear that water bills work very differently in Scotland and Northern Ireland. And in Scotland, the water industry is publicly owned. Bills are based on council tax bans unless homes have a water meter. In Northern Ireland, households don't pay directly for their water bills. OK, well, high bills are one thing. What if you can't get any water at all? In August, that happened to 10 ,000 people in East London and Essex who were left without water after a mains pipe burst in the hot weather. One of those people affected was Carol in Chigwell, and she joins us live now.

10:43Andy White: Carol, hello. Felicity, good afternoon. Good to have you with us. last month's heat wave seems a very long time ago doesn't it but just it does remind us what

10:52Jeevan Jones: happened very briefly um about the 8th of august we woke up on a sunday morning no water and the demographics here are 80 year olds and 90 year olds some have carers etc and we had no water now we had no water for five days so i took it upon myself to get onto the thames water and i rang every day for five days until water was delivered and really we were treated I think on the phone really badly um and then you know it takes at least three bottles three two-litre bottles actually to flush the toilet once and you know we have to cook and clean that sorry you were

11:36Andy White: just about to say something well I'm just curious to know if if anyone helped you talked about your neighbours being older people, I know in your 70s, did anyone bring you water?

11:46Jeevan Jones: Nobody brought us water. I have a sort of injury to my shoulder. So I went one day to a water station that Thames Water developed, and I just couldn't lift everything. They lifted it for me in the car. I had to lift it out and put some in the foyer here. We're a four-storey block of flats um there's five blocks and there's about 19 or 20 flats in each block so the answer is no not really we had to do it all of ourselves i couldn't do it i did it once i couldn't do it

12:18Andy White: again did they at least keep you informed did you get lots of communication about what was going on

12:23Jeevan Jones: what was happening no no no i had to phone and another resident rang as well every day four five six times a day to find out what's happening now we understand that there's an issue a burst pipe is a burst pipe you know we're respectful of that we understand all we wanted what you know and the workers as well you know they're under pressure however an apology was expected with what can we do for you except we were told get in your car and go to a water station well we brushed off we were we were actually brushed off rather than action and we're on the vulnerable list and did we get uh anything no not for five days what about compensation has anyone talked to you about that well the compensation we had a letter 11 days later so it was on the 8th right and 11 days later we got a letter saying oh we're really sorry about you've got no water and on the back of the letter um here's the link to the compensation scheme so yeah that's as much as we got really

13:23Andy White: carol thank you very much indeed for joining us for telling us what happened um in a statement Thames Water told Moneybox Live, prolonged dry conditions can cause the ground to shrink and move, placing additional pressure on buried water mains and increasing the risk of leaks and bursts. It said it understands how frustrating and disruptive it has been, and it would like to thank customers for their patience while it restored normal service. This shouldn't have happened to Carol and her neighbours, though, should it? They were on a list of vulnerable customers. What should your industry do in a situation like that?

13:55Andy White: Well, I think the first thing to do is apologise. so I'm really sorry to hear that Carol and her neighbours didn't get an apology so you can get one from me Now obviously I don't work for Thames Water so I don't know the details but what we should be doing is making sure that these incidents don't happen in the first place that's why we need the investment but it also means that when they do happen we protect the most vulnerable people in our society because these things happen they happen all over the world when there are these issues we've got a massive network where these issues can happen but when they happen we should make sure that people are supported and protected I think Carol's still with us Carol does that apology help?

14:25Andy White: Well, actually, well, thank you for that,

14:27Jeevan Jones: because that's the first time someone has actually apologised. You know, a letter really wasn't good enough. We wanted action. But thank you very much. That does go some way to help. Thank you very much indeed, yes.

14:40Andy White: Carol, thank you. But, Chief, this sort of highlights an issue a lot of people have with water companies, isn't it? That they have a monopoly. They don't need to worry, really, about how they treat customers. It's a sort of water, water everywhere, and the customer service stinks. Well we have a regulatory system that's meant to make them care about their customers through financial penalties so that's part of the way but also frankly we've got 100 ,000 people working this industry most all of them live in their region and the company they operate so they they do care but where we need to have stronger regulation we should have it and just to make sure that that comes through and as I say I just think it's all for what's happened and we need to make sure that you know apologies are given when they're meant to be given and services restored when they can.

15:21Andy White: Now, it will take time. You know, we've got a big investment programme and the climate is changing, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't care for people in the meantime. The Water Minister, Emma Hardy, said for too long, pollution, poor performance and financial instability in the water industry has left customers and communities to pay the price. This situation can't continue, she says, which is why the government will give the public more control and help keep bills as low as possible. Andy, what are people's rights, though, when something like this happens? What kind of compensation should people like Carol will be getting?

15:51Jeevan Jones: Well the compensation that's available in the case of an interruption has actually been increased and that was a result of us at CCW making recommendations to government so the standard now is that if you are without water for 12 hours then you're entitled to£50 compensation and every 12 hours beyond that that you're still without water you should be compensated another£50 up to double the amount of your annual water bill. Double your water bill? Up to that, yeah.

16:21Andy White: Okay. I suppose one of the frustrations people have is that they can't switch and they can't compare deals like they can with anything.

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17:22Jeevan Jones: This is not a recommendation or offer to buy, sell or attain any specific investment or service.

17:29Andy White: And two bills. Rising bills, they put pressure on a lot of people, don't they? For some households, though, it can be what sinks them deeper into debt. Let's hear from Sheena now. She told us how much debt she'd run up. So with mine, I think it was about over 4 ,000 when you're struggling so much. So obviously we needed food, we needed gas and electric. I needed bus fare to work. We had kids, also like it was clothes, food for them. It just got pushed to the back of the queue further and further. I think you just go into autopilot where you do think, well, because they can't shut it off, out of sight, out of mind kind of thing.

18:11Andy White: Thank you very much, Sheena. She is now getting support with managing that debt from Christians against poverty. Andy, the latest data from the regulator Offwatch shows that four million households are in debt to their suppliers, just like Sheena. What happens in those cases? Because your supplier can't cut you off, can they?

18:26Jeevan Jones: They can't. There is action that they can take, but the most important thing is actually they get help to the people who need it. And the water sector does have a great set of tools to help people who are struggling, from social tariff schemes, the water shore scheme that caps bills to people who have high water usage needs but low incomes and also debt schemes which can in some cases match the payments that people make against their debt so that that's cleared faster.

18:54Andy White: And you've actually spoken to Moneybox before calling for a uniform social tariff instead of I suppose what is the current postcode lottery different water companies have different schemes explain what you'd like to see.

19:05Jeevan Jones: Absolutely well we've got a postcode lottery at the moment where there are great schemes out there which are helping people but actually where you live determines whether you're eligible for help and how much help you can get so we want to see a single scheme which actually addresses the problem and targets water poverty which is where people are spending more than five percent of their income on on water bills a single scheme targeted at that problem could deliver that and eradicate the problem.

19:35Andy White: Jeevan Andy's making an interesting point isn't he and just a few days ago the The Westminster Parliament's Public Accounts Committee said that there's inconsistent and confusing eligibility requirements for social tariffs, that they can act as a barrier to customers receiving support. And it estimates that 6.1 million households could be missing out on social tariffs. Is the current system working? Well, certainly at the moment, we've got a system that people should use. So the Water Institute has put forward£4 billion of support to reduce bills for those that need it. that would make available for 3 million people.

20:08Andy White: So there's another million people who would be eligible and should get in touch. We're reaching those people as much as we can through communications, working with benefits departments, local authorities. But if you're listening and think that you or someone you know might be eligible for reduced bills because they're on low incomes or have other forms of issues such as disability, then they should get in touch. In terms of what it needs to change in future, that's really a question for government. At the moment, water companies put forward as much as they can, are because they are allowed in the existing rules.

20:35Andy White: And if government wants that to go further, then they need to change the rules and do that. But water companies pledged to eradicate water poverty by 2030. It doesn't feel like that's happening. Yeah, so as I say, there's a million households support available and a million more than we're currently helping. If we can get that filled, and I think that will make a real difference for those people who can get it. And then if we want to go further than that, I'm all up for that. But we need to get the government backing for that. Okay, we're getting more emails and messages about water meters than I had maybe expected.

21:05Andy White: Let's hear from David next. He's moved into a new house. He's got a question about his water meter. We are a family of five and having a water meter is really unaffordable. So when I contacted to ask them, could this water meter be removed?

21:20Jeevan Jones: They told me that the water meter could have been removed within the first two years of this being installed. I then said, well, we didn't ask for the water meter to be installed. We've now occupied the house. and there is a water meter could we have it removed and they've said no. I find this quite

21:38Andy White: difficult when what we've seen in the media and in the press recently is the way that water

21:45Jeevan Jones: companies have been managing the water seems to be now placing the onus on us as customers to fix their problems that they've you know neglected the water pipes for the past 40 years of privatisation.

22:02Andy White: He's certainly not the only one sending us that kind of thought. Jared has a message to say, haven't the water companies made billions in profits over the last years? Why wasn't that invested in infrastructure? Which we will come on to. But Andy, first of all, what are the rules when it comes to a water meter?

22:18Jeevan Jones: So if you choose to have a water meter installed, then you have up to two years to switch back to that. Now, most people have switched because they've identified that they'll save money so they don't need to to do that and if you move into a property that already has a meter or if you're in an area where compulsory metering is being introduced because of water efficiency considerations then you don't have the right to to choose um you will be be charged according to what you use and actually most customers do consider that paying for what you use is the fairest way um but obviously if you are on a then there are things that you can do to try and bring that bill down even if you are a larger family.

23:00Andy White: Jeevan, David and Jared and quite a lot of other listeners reckon customers are paying for the neglect of the infrastructure by water companies. What is your response to that? So we've got rules in place to make sure that doesn't happen. So when the regulator agrees the amount of money companies can raise from customers, that's only for new investment and it's only for maintenance over and above what they should have done in the past so that ensures that customers aren't paying twice and that they're not paying for failure companies have to bear that the brunt of that and then the question of metering is an interesting one because if you pay for what you use as andy said via meter then that goes towards paying your share of the cost and the way the rules work is that companies can't pocket the difference any sort of excess has to be handed back to the bills of other customers so it's all about how do you fairly recover the costs and i think it probably is by metering now for those customers where their use is very high perhaps because they've got many children in the house and they're on low pay low incomes or on benefits then they can get help with that but the principle that you pay for the amount that you use and the pressure you put on the system to me seems like the fairest way joe has emailed uh jiman to say that their supplier sent postcards saying in the next few weeks we would have water meters joe says i immediately phoned them as i don't want one they said I couldn't refuse.

24:14Andy White: Is that right? It depends where they are. So the way that the law works at the moment is if you're in what's called a water stressed area, which people might think is quite a lot of the country, then there is compulsory metering as part of the part of those rules. If you don't live in that, then it's optional. And when people do choose, often they find, particularly if you're a couple in a large house, perhaps, or you live on your own, then actually being on a water meter can kind of better reflect your cost, bring your bills down. But it It does depend on where you live in terms of whether it's compulsory or not.

24:43Andy White: Some people clearly do want a water meter. The data shows that complaints from customers who couldn't get one were up 464 % in the last year. Is it complicated to do? Can some homes not have them? I think it depends where you live. That's right. I think so. As I do live in a flat, sort of getting it installed is a bit tricky. It is doable. I got mine installed last week. Congratulations. Thank you. After quite a lot of badgering. But it just demonstrates that it takes some time and it takes some effort. But, you know, my view, people want them. They should definitely get them and they should get them soon.

25:15Andy White: And I'll let you know in a month what happens to my bill as a result of it. Please do. Barbara's emailed to say her supplier can't install a water meter at her property because she's on a shared supply. She says her rate is calculated on similar houses usage that have a meter. But she lives by herself and she thinks she's probably paying too much. OK, let's hear from Idris next.

25:33Jeevan Jones: Having discovered that the water coming off the roof wasn't going into the sewer, but was actually soaked away. I then looked at my water bills over the past years and realised I was paying£44 a year for water that was actually not going into the sewer. And over the 30 years I've been in this house, I suppose I paid them like£1 ,320. Well, I then discovered that I could only claim back six years, which seems rather unfair. But anyhow, I got£309 back, better than nothing, I suppose.

26:10Andy White: I didn't know about this until we had this message from Idris. Andy, Idris is talking about his rainwater soaks into the ground, it doesn't go into the sewer, so he shouldn't have been paying for it. Is it right he only gets six years of that payment back?

26:23Jeevan Jones: So water companies don't necessarily know whether your house is connected to the drainage system or not, because they weren't required, the builders were not required to let the water company know. So it does depend on customers coming forward and letting the company know so that they can give a discount for that element of the bill. Now, until a few years ago, actually, you would only have, in most cases, been able to claim back the current year's charges. But we led a campaign and the water companies agreed as a result of that to go back six years. so that is a it is a step forward it is frustrating but because of that point Jeevan was saying about the money that the water companies have been shared between customers actually you know that money has been collected it can't now be redistributed amongst other customers.

27:09Andy White: Is there a way for people to check if they've got a sort of soak away so they're not paying for a service they don't use?

27:16Jeevan Jones: So usually it would be on the plans of their property or they We might be able to see some signs in the garden that there is that structure.

27:24Andy White: OK, thank you. Loads of you have been in touch to explain how you're saving water, saving money on your bills. I'm loving some of these. Some of them are quite extreme. Carl saves water in lots of different ways, lots of really, really admirable ways, but says, I also make coffee with water from my morning's boiled egg. That is dedication. I quite like this from Martin. He's emailed to say, I use a shower at work every day to reduce my water usage at home. I found it's brought down my water bill by£20 a month. and Richard has been in touch to say he has slashed his water bill by using water butts which fill up with rainwater around the garden.

27:57Jeevan Jones: Even the garden shed had its own water butt and it would soon fill up the amount of rain we get in this country and that's what I use and an electric pump to transfer water to butt. I really think it's ridiculous that we flush our toilets with drinking quality water. Just so wrong. The water bill that I last received was£36 for the quarter. Basically, the standing charge plus a little bit of usage. It used to be three figures,£170,£180.

28:33Andy White: Well, if you've got space for a water putt, that is a good potential saving. Andy, what kind of tips can people consider if they want to cut back their water usage and their bills?

28:43Jeevan Jones: Yeah, water butts are a great one and it's better for the garden to use that rainwater. Also using the water efficient settings on dishwashers, washing machines, making sure you're doing full loads. They're all great ways to save. And a great thing to remember is that actually if you save hot water, then you're actually saving on your energy bill as well as your water bill if you have a water meter. so things like shorter showers are a great way to save and obviously switching from a bath to a shower if you if you can but absolutely saving that water you're getting double value.

29:18Andy White: Shorter showers I can hear parents yelling tell my teenager at the radio. Jeevan what are your tips? Yeah I mean something like a third of all leaks are in the home and often because you've got a what's called a leaky loo so it's often replenishing or something that's happening under the floorboards or somewhere else. So definitely as a top tip, check your home, check your usage, particularly if it spikes when you look at your bill, because that will hopefully give you an idea that you can do yourself to really help cut your costs and also reduce the amount of water we have to take out of the environment.

29:50Andy White: I'm going to read a bit more from Carl of Of The Eggs. It says, I've been flushing my toilet for three years with rainwater or in a drought with wastewater. I built the simple system myself and I have saved well over 5 ,000 litres of drinking water being used in a toilet. Thank you very much indeed for that. Well, that's it from us in this Moneybox live podcast. Thank you for your emails, which flooded our inbox on this topic. We will read them all. Thank you also to Andy White from the Consumer Council for Water and Jeevan Jones from Water UK. Don't miss Moneybox with Paul Lewis at midday on Saturday.

30:23Andy White: He'll be talking about why so many people leave their money languishing in low interest accounts. If there is a story you want us to look at, then get in touch. Here's Arnold and Sandy from earlier in the programme to tell you how.

30:36Jeevan Jones: If you want Moneybox Live to look at a story or even appear on a programme like I did, then get in touch. You can email Moneybox at bbc.co.uk or send the team a voice note on WhatsApp. The number is 033-06-783-183. They really do read and listen to everyone.

31:02Andy White: Thank you both. We really do. In this podcast, the producer was Sarah Rogers, studio manager Mitch Goodall. Our editor is Jess Quayle. I'm Felicity Hanna and this was a BBC News Money and Work production for BBC Sounds. 25 years on from the deadliest terror attack in history, Why are thousands of grieving families still fighting for answers?

31:23Jeevan Jones: In early 2000, two young Saudis arrived in San Diego. They'd never been to America, spoke almost no English,

31:30Andy White: and had no idea how to open a bank account or rent a flat. Within weeks, they'd done all of it. Twenty months later, they hijacked a plane and crashed it into the Pentagon. Jane McMullen investigates the hidden story of a man who helped two of the hijackers and reveals a story that the U.S. and Saudi governments have fought to keep secret.

31:51Jeevan Jones: From Radio 4, this is Intrigue, a 9-11 story. Listen first on BBC Sounds.

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