Money Box Live: Saving for Your Future Self

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0:30Save through November 3rd at Whole Foods Market. Sometimes we all need an extra help in hand, especially with a tricky business problem you've been putting off. Claude is an AI for just that. It's the collaborator that understands your entire workflow and thinks with you, not for you. And Claude isn't just for quick questions. Hand it a whole task like turning a folder or scattered notes into a report and it does the work and hands back something finished that you can open and edit. Claude can now draft a dock or deck right in front of you and Claude Design now lives right inside Claude. Describe the website or prototype you're picturing, attach your design system and it comes back in your own design language ready to edit right on the canvas.

1:13It works with your files and the tools you already use like Gmail and Slack and whether you're debugging code at midnight, building a financial model or strategizing your next business move, Claude extends your thinking to tackle the problems that matter. For problems worth solving, get started with Claude at claude.ai.solve. That's claude.ai.solve. And check out Claude Pro, which includes access to all of the features mentioned in today's episode. claude.ai.solve. Hello. There can be a lot of financial pressure in your 20s. Paying the rent, saving for a home, clearing student debt are just a few.

1:52And of course, having some fun. So the idea of spending time and money saving for a retirement that's decades away can seem like a very low priority. Might want to have children. How do we save for that? How do we save for a house? What do we do with our pensions? Like, what age on earth will we retire? More from Rebecca very shortly. But she isn't alone in asking when retirement might actually be possible. In fact, one in eight young adults now say engaging with their pension feels pointless because they don't think they'll ever retire. So in this Moneybox Live podcast, we're looking at what could be one of the biggest issues of our financial lives.

2:29How do you balance the money pressures of today with the needs of your future self? Can workers in their 20s really pay into a pension when money is already tight? Are younger generations planning for life without a state pension? To talk about this, we brought together three working age young adults and had a video chat about some of the issues they're grappling with. Hi, I'm Rebecca. I'm 25. I'm currently renting a property and looking to buy my first home. I'm Maisie, I'm 21 years old and currently renting a flat in Manchester. Hi, I'm Rory, I'm a graduate apprentice. I'm 18 so I'm staying with my parents and I just started the role a month ago so it's my first payday this week which I'm looking forward to.

3:17So hopefully that means I can start a kind of positive trend of saving money where it matters but I would also like to keep some money for like concerts and and fun things like that. Yeah my financial position I'd say when I was at home I was saving more for my first home and that's kind of put on pause while I'm renting because renting is quite expensive nowadays. Okay Rebecca tell me some of the financial pressures that are on you at the moment. So I live in Birmingham you know it's not London, but renting a one bed is still going to set you back about a grand a month just for the rent. Also feeling the pressure of the repayments of my student loans at the moment, and that's setting me back about£400 a month, which is not insignificant.

4:03But at the moment, I'd say I probably save about£1 ,000 a month. And, you know, I've got my pot going up, you know, I work really hard. It's just becoming really tricky because no matter how much I save, I still can't afford the property that I want to buy. I can see Maisie and Rory both nodding along to that. Maisie, oh it's not just me brilliant I was just gonna say that's insane that you're saving a thousand pounds still not able to achieve what you want which is so frustrating I was saving in a lifetime ISA and then kind of put that on pause now for while I'm renting and then I contribute to my pension through work and then they match it I think my work's five percent so I thought I may as well start this now it's not a big goal of mine currently but again I want to make sure when it's the time is right there's some money there.

4:49Rory you're sort of at the beginning of this aren't you? You're at home. I'm quite lucky that my employer has quite a high pension contribution so I was hoping to maybe not contribute as much to that and instead contribute that money towards a lifetime iso with the idea of eventually buying a house in the longer term. Do you all feel like there are other life goals that maybe need to more prioritise than your pension at the moment yeah kind of with how demotivating it can feel sometimes like saving for these goals that feel so far away like buying a house or or like a pension you've got to remember to like live a little and I think that's something really important that I've learned like I can't just save all my money because it doesn't technically really get me that much closer to my goal and no it's not the cliche you know buying coffee every day or having your avocado on toast it's actually like having fun with your friends going out and having a bit of a life outside of work yeah I've gotten a bit of grief from my my older folks of oh don't spend all your salary on coffees all the time yes we have a bit of fun but yeah we're we're actually grappling with like a lot of things at the moment like one of our children how do we save for that how do we save for our house what do we do with our pensions like what age on earth will we retire Maisie you've actually opted into your workplace pension haven't you yes I have I joined this company about a year over a year ago and it was optional and I thought it's not a big difference out of my wage for me to notice so I thought I may as well pop a bit in now so when I need it I've got some money there you know it kind of is at the bottom of my list but it's it's not something that like maybe I I don't worry about like, we don't know what age we will be able to retire if we ever will.

6:36I'll drop dead before that. Or, you know, what on earth the state pension will look like by the time we come to retirement. So I do have a workplace pension and it's not insignificant contributions I make. It's about seven and a half percent, I think, my salary that I put into it. But it is pegged to state pension age and who on earth wants to, you know, plan on working till state pension age. So I do try and put some money into stocks and shares, some more longer term savings. And, you know, it might be that I do have to dip into that pot, say, if I were to have children or some unexpected thing came up.

7:09But like if that could sit there for the next 40, 50 years and accumulate and grow, then that would be great for retirement, I think. Rory, you're 18. I mean, you're at the absolute slap bang beginning. Yes. The younger you are, the more impact that will have to things like compounding and compound interest. over time so maybe if I put in quite a lot just now it could mean that I could maybe take my foot off the break a bit if maybe a life event happened. Rebecca you talked about not being sure when or if you'd be able to retire do you do you worry about whether the estate pension by the time it's your turn?

7:49I'd like to say I don't worry because I'd like to say that like I'm planned and like future me will figure it out and I've got a bit of time. It's tricky because it's just getting further and further away. And I feel like as I'll get older, that will become more of a worry. But right now, like we've all said, it's probably getting on the property ladder and enjoying life, really. Rory, are you an optimist or a pessimist when it comes to state pension and its future? I'm planning for the idea of having no or a very insubstantial state pension. And then if I were to get paid it, then it would just be a nice bonus on top.

8:25Thank you very much to Maisie, Rebecca and Rory. And listening to them are Chantelle Akello, policy researcher at the Pensions Policy Institute, which is an independent educational and research charity. And also Sarah Pennells, consumer finance specialist at the Pension Provider Royal London. Hello. Hello. Hi. Great to have you both with us. Sarah, I just feel like the three of them got straight to the heart of it, didn't they? They're savvy, financially thoughtful people at the start of their careers. They are thinking about their future selves, but the immediate future is just much more of a focus.

8:59Maisie: You're right. They really did capture, I think, the dilemma that a lot of people of Gen Z people are now wrestling with. And it was interesting to see actually how much thought they'd given to their pension, because there is a bit of a cliche that younger people aren't thinking about their future selves, aren't thinking about retirement. but that's not actually what they were demonstrating and it's certainly not what our research is showing either i mean there's no doubt that there are some real pressures on people of you know gen z that sort of generation but i think and they articulated it you know rory maizey and rebecca articulated it really well which is actually although pensions and retirement may not be an immediate priority it's not something that you want to sort of put at the back of the heap and never get round to because your your life in retirement could be you know 20 25 even 30 years and i think none of us wants to think of having a life where we are making choices between heating and eating most of us i think when we think about the life when we stop work whenever that is there are things we want to do and and having money to do that is part of it i think gen z gen z is bound to come up more in this program i should say it's uh it's the generation who are Currently aged between 14 and about 29 years old at the moment.

10:15Chantal, you're in Gen Z and you've actually done some research on this, haven't you? So when older generations say, well, we had it tough too when we were young, when we were that age, you've been looking into some specific challenges for young adults today. Yes, absolutely. I am in Gen Z. I'm 24. So I can completely relate to everybody who's spoken so far. I mean, you know, Gen Z are facing an issue with competing financial priorities, some of which have been mentioned so far. What our research has highlighted is the fact that a lot of young people are spending even half of their salary just on rent alone, something that Rebecca highlighted as well.

10:56And so it kind of really constricts the amount of money left to put aside to save into a pension. so I would say that you know under saving isn't necessarily a Gen Z problem itself but I think Gen Z are currently experiencing it in a particular set of circumstances that's making it particularly difficult. Sarah they all mentioned lifetime ISAs I think can you just briefly explain what they are and how they work?

11:23Maisie: Yeah so lifetime ISA is it's designed to help people to either save for a deposit for their home or it can be used for retirement saving as well. In fact, it's due to be replaced by a new kind of ISA, but we don't know how that will work yet. So you can take one out up until the age of between 18 and 39 and you can pay up to£4 ,000 a year and the government tops that up with£1 ,000, a maximum of£1 ,000. I think that the The slight catch with it is that there are restrictions on the value of the property that you buy, which is the house or flat must be a maximum of£450 ,000. Now, that isn't necessarily a problem in a number of parts of the UK, but in London and the South East in particular, that can be.

12:09Maisie: And in that case, you can't use your lifetime ISA towards a deposit for your home. It has to then be used towards your retirement and you can't access that money until you're 60. unless you take it out and pay a penalty. And when we're talking about buying a home, saving for a home versus a pension, it's worth mentioning the ABI has a report that shows one in three pensioner households could be renting by 2044. So more than 2 million people are expected to retire without owning their home. And I suppose rent would eat up a lot of pensions. So it's sort of perhaps people are doing the sums. Chantel, let's talk about the state pension.

12:44It's in the news a lot. The age that people start getting it is creeping up, isn't it? So what can people in their 20s expect? Yeah so currently at the moment we do have the state pension age review so a group of experts come together and they look at things relating to life expectancy and other factors and kind of put together you know an expected age of retirement and at the moment that's currently 66 and it's set to creep up to 67 and then 68 in the following years as well. And there was some state pension pessimism, I think, from some of the people we spoke to there. State pension is very different to a workplace or personal pension, which we will talk about next.

13:26But it's worth saying, the pensions minister, Torsten Bell, has said, I think we should be very confident that the state pension will be there for younger generations. Okay, that's the state pension. For some people, there's a different kind of pessimism. And it's quite bleak. It's pessimism about the future of the planet that stops them saving into their workplace schemes. My name's Molly. I'm 26. I'm living in Swansea in Wales at the moment. So when it comes to climate change and like a complete lack of accountability and just action and action in a big enough scale, when it comes to the pension, I just I don't see a future where money that I've paid in now is going to come back to me because A, the age keeps going up And B, I'm much more worried about how I'm going to make it through next summer, let alone the next 20 years, to even give like 10 % of caring to myself at 68.

14:22I'm paying into a promise that I'm very unlikely going to see. Oh, that sounds so bleak. It does make me live more in the moment because even climate change aside, you never know what's going to happen in the future. So it just means it's more important to live in the now and just make sure that I'm making it like taking advantage of my time on the earth while I have it. Well, thank you to Molly, who got in touch with the BBC's Your Voice and spoke there to our producer, Sarah Rogers. It's not just Molly. John has emailed to say there's now no longer any point in young people saving into a pension.

14:54The climate crisis will result in a collapse of the global economy as we fail to get to grips with reducing emissions. Sarah we can't solve climate change in this programme but it is a concern for a lot of people especially younger people and it's really tricky to tell them to be sensible and safe if they've got Molly's level of concern what would you say to her and John?

15:14Maisie: Yeah I completely understand it I don't want to trivialise at all their concerns I think one thing I would say is that there have always there have been different generations that have had different concerns so if we kind of look back in history and think about the nuclear arms race or the Cold War Or I think some people would have maybe felt at other times in history that actually I may not see retirement. So what's the point? And as you said in the introduction or as others were saying, it's not about putting money into your pension, say you can't live at all today. But I think for some people, there can often be a reason not to, because it does seem like a long way away.

15:50Maisie: If you are young and in your sort of early 20s or 30s, then retirement seems like kind of a lifetime away. but I very rarely meet people who say I wish I'd save less in my pension but I often meet people who say I wish I had more so I could do more now I'm not working so yes I'm not trivialising their concerns at all but I do think you have to balance living for today and making sure that you do get to do some things you enjoy but thinking that there probably will be a future self there will be a future life and if you have a separate pension from the state you aren't actually tied to the state pension age and you can retire early if it's feasible to do.

16:53Never taste it better. Save through November 3rd at Whole Foods Market. Sometimes we all need an extra help in hand, especially with a tricky business problem you've been putting off. Claude is an AI for just that. It's the collaborator that understands your entire workflow and thinks with you, not for you. And Claude isn't just for quick questions. Hand it a whole task like turning a folder or scattered notes into a report and it does the work and hands back something finished that you can open and edit. Claude can now draft a dock or deck right in front of you and Claude Design now lives right inside Claude.

17:29Describe the website or prototype you're picturing, attach your design system and it comes back in your own design language ready to edit right on the canvas. It works with your files and the tools you already use like Gmail and Slack and whether you're debugging code at midnight, building a financial model or strategizing your next business move, Claude extends your thinking to tackle the problems that matter. For problems worth solving, get started with Claude at claude.ai.solve. That's claude.ai.solve. And check out Claude Pro, which includes access to all of the features mentioned in today's episode.

18:05Claude.ai.solve. So, thank you. And one thing that has got a lot more people saving into a private pension is the auto-enrolment scheme. 22.6 million people were saving into a workplace pension as a result of that last year. Can you just explain quickly how that works?

18:26Maisie: Yeah, so basically, if you're employed or if you're on a contract, so not if you're self-employed, then as long as you meet three criteria, which is your age 22 and over, an understate pension age, you earn at least£10 ,000 from that particular job and you're working in the UK. your employer will put you into their workplace pension scheme without you having to fill in any forms. Now, you're not forced to stay in there. You can opt out if you want to. But if you stay in, then there are rules about how much gets paid in. So you pay in, as a minimum, approximately 4 % of your salary. Your employer pays in 3%.

19:04Maisie: And then there's 1 % in tax relief on top. And this is why workplace pensions are so valuable because it's not just your money going in. the money the employer pays in, that comes from their own coffers, it's not from you. And that can make a big difference to the amount that you're saving and how it grows. OK, but let's talk about opting out. Daniel's been in touch to say he opted out of his company pension after COVID when he changed from being a contractor to an employee. I was set to take a significant financial hit from going full-time PAYE and the decision to withdraw from the offered company pension was driven by the desire to keep hold of as much of my hard-earned money as I could.

19:40particularly as I wanted to enjoy myself as much as possible in the time after COVID restrictions were finally lifted. The benefits of the pension scheme seemed so small I preferred to just have the money in hand. Thank you very much to Daniel. Well, the government says a rising number of young workers aren't saving. Overall, there's a danger tomorrow's retirees are on track for lower private pension incomes than today's. And they say that's why we've revived the Pensions Commission to diagnose the scale of this problem and set out what needs to happen next. Chantel, there are other issues as well.

20:11Analysis from the Institute for Fiscal Studies suggests that Muslims who say their religious beliefs make a greater difference to their lives are more likely to opt out of auto-enrolment schemes. And Pakistani and Bangladeshi heritage employees are generally more likely to opt out. There can be some particular demographic challenges, can't there, with encouraging people to save into pensions? Yes, absolutely. There are a lot of demographic differences when we look at pension participation. At the PPI, we have something called the Underpensioned Index, where we delve into this in a bit more detail, looking at particular groups relating to ethnic minorities, carers, women, people with disabilities and the like.

20:51And some research that we found is that around 65 % of Bangladeshi employees are actually ineligible for automatic enrolment. But then when we compare that to the Indian population, for example, only about 96%, 96 % apologies are actually eligible. And so not only are there differences between, you know, these underpension groups, but there are also differences between ethnic minorities as well. And so I'd say that the groups are definitely not homogenous. Chantelle, thank you very much. Let's take a call now. Abby is on the line. Abby, good to have you with us. Hello. Hi, how are you? Well, I'm curious about you.

21:32You're 28, you work in marketing and you've been a bit of a saver since childhood. Is that right? Yes, that's right. Yeah. Has that carried into adulthood? Is it as easy now as it was with your, I don't know, Christmas money, age 13? Yeah, I think from a young age, I've always been kind of told that I need to save my money. So even through like birthday, Christmas money that was given from my family members, I was told like, put it into a savings account. You never know when you might need it and I think as I've gotten older it's definitely still within my remit like I still have so many different pots that I'll put in to make sure I've got enough money for like holidays or like bills and things like that but I think there is a lot of kind of talk on social media now between like do you just go out and spend your money because you're young and you should be going traveling or should I be like putting it into my pension should I be putting it into my ISA for when I'm older so I think there is that kind of like hard balance in this generation.

22:25What do you feel the answer is? Do you struggle with the right priority? I do, yeah, I definitely struggle with the right priority. I think I'm trying to do both, which can be hard, obviously, in this day and age with inflation and the cost of living. It's difficult to know what the right decision is. And I think it is different for different priorities. Obviously, everyone has different priorities in their life. Everyone's different ages. But yeah, I'm definitely finding it difficult to know where to put my money. Abby, thank you so much for joining us on Moneybox Live. No worries. Thank you.

22:56Thanks to Abby. But thank you also to Manchester Young Professionals Network for putting us in touch. Sarah, Abby's sort of talking about some of the different priorities, saving into an ISA. So she's got money for her future self. And I suppose then potentially a pot she can access sooner if she needs to. What are the pros and cons between saving into an ISA and saving into a pension?

23:19Maisie: If you're saving into an ISA, so there are two kinds of sort of main ISA. So cash ISA or stocks and shares, cash is good for sort of short term money, emergency funds, stocks and shares if you can leave your money invested for at least five years. Now, the advantage of an ISA is that when you take money out of it, you don't pay any tax on the proceeds and you don't pay any tax on the gains either. With a pension, when you take money out of it, then you can take normally up to 25 % tax free, but the rest of it is potentially taxable. The advantage of a pension is you get tax relief up front. So I mentioned that sort of government top up, which is either going to be sort of at the basic rate or if you're a higher rate taxpayer, then you get extra tax relief as well.

24:03Maisie: And tax relief, it's kind of jargon, but it means if you were to put£100 into your pension and you're a basic rate taxpayer, it will cost you£80. If you're a higher rate taxpayer, assuming you're in England and Wales, not in Scotland, then it would cost you£60. So it can make a massive difference. But it doesn't necessarily have to be either or. Maybe you want to put some money into your ISA. So you have got some short term fund. You know you've got some money there. But also think about your pension. And if you are employed, and we know our research shows that quite a few employers pay in more than the minimum amount.

24:38Maisie: And quite a few of them will match any extra you pay in up to a certain limit. if you are not paying into your employer's pension scheme then you are saying goodbye to that that money that free money not often a phrase we say so i do understand that you know people do have to live today they can't tip their entire salary into their pension but it's not necessarily either or it could be well i'll put this much into an isa and when i've built up that fund i'll maybe put some more into my pension or split your savings as i believe um you know becca was saying she was doing. We've had an email, Chantelle, that says, why would young people opt out?

25:14It's simple, they see that older people have been conned by the constantly increasing of the state pension age, of grandparents who did the right thing, not to mention the tax level staying the same, so even small amounts are taxed in your retirement. Why bother? I feel like there's quite a lot of anger from almost every age group around the issue of paying for retirement. Chantelle, do you think the current cost of living has maybe focused some of that frustration? yes absolutely i think the current financial climate is definitely making things harder i know i can definitely you know relate 100 percent um what our research found as well is that you know a lot of gen z also believe that the state pension when retired by the time exists by the time they retire that was around half of gen z believing that um and so i think there's also kind of a confidence issue there as well in regards to pensions and everything relating to the topic.

26:09But absolutely, I think high housing costs, student debt, and, you know, the high cost of rent is all kind of creating some sort of melting pot and making it really hard to make those decisions. Yeah. And going by some of the emails and messages we've had, people do feel really strongly, whatever their age. A report from the Pensions Commission suggests that just 4 % or 1 in 25 fully self-employed workers are saving for retirement. It's even lower among younger self-employed people. Sarah, so many people in their 20s are freelancing, they're juggling side hustles, or they're doing gig work, and no one's auto-enrolling them into anything there.

26:50If you're 23 and self-employed, where on earth do you start? In fact, we had a message from Haller who says, please could you consider young people who work in creative industries and don't have a company pension, how do they save for the future?

27:02Maisie: Yeah, I mean, I think there's no doubt it is a much bigger challenge if you are self-employed, partly because you don't get those valuable employer contributions, but also you don't get someone plonking you into their pension scheme without you having to do anything. And that barrier, not having that barrier, you know, is a big help to employees. So I'm not underestimating it. And I think for people who are self-employed, there's also often that kind of inconsistency of income, or there can be or inconsistency of being paid on time, which may be more accurate. But there are ways. You don't necessarily have to commit to paying money into your pension every month.

27:36Maisie: You can put money into a pension as a lump sum. You can maybe think, well, I'll put some money into an ISA. I'll build it up. When I know I've got a lump sum and I know what my tax bill is, I can put money in then. So, yes, I really get that it is much harder if you're self-employed, but you're not necessarily committed to paying money in every month if you don't want to. Thank you very much. We've had this voice note on WhatsApp from Hannah. She and her partner are self-employed. We rent a property that we would never be able to afford to buy and live a lifestyle I feel that we would never be able to if we had a mortgage behind us.

28:16It does mean that perhaps we don't have the savings or a pension that is very big. However, we made the decision very early on to live a lifestyle we can enjoy whilst we are young. Hannah, thank you very much for that. Sarah, briefly if you can, one topic that comes up a lot with Moneybox is inheritance. And according to Standard Life, almost a quarter of so-called Gen Z adults say they weren't focused on saving retirement because they expect to inherit money or property. Is that a safe way to plan your finances?

28:49Maisie: It is something that some people are relying on. The problem with an inheritance is that it's very rare that you can predict exactly when you're going to get it or indeed how much you're going to get. and because people are living longer it means when they inherit it's often later in life as well so it can be quite near to retirement or even later than they'd plan to retire. And of course parents care costs might might eat away at some of what you expect that's a good point. Okay let's we go back finally to Rebecca, Maisie and Rory from the beginning of the programme and hear from them on what their plans are for their future financial selves.

29:24I'm controlling what I can control there's so many unknowns but I think it's just best to to crack down and keep being financially literate yeah we're doing our best it is always each year a thought to like make sure that I'm in a comfortable position pensions ask me in I'm sure like 30 years time I'll be like I need to sort myself out yeah just control what you can play the hand you're dealt if you're a bit worried about the money you have maybe save a bit more next month or whatever well these are very big issues, aren't they? Thank you to everybody who shared their thoughts with us. We will read every message as we always do, but that's all we've got time for in this podcast.

30:02Thanks to Chantelle Arkello, policy researcher at the Pensions Policy Institute, and Sarah Pennells from the pension provider Royal London. Paul Lewis is back with Moneybox at midday on Saturday, and as we head into autumn, he'll be talking about the rising cost of heating oil, and if there's anything that can help bring those bills down. If there's a story you want us to look at, then here's Rebecca from earlier on in the podcast to tell you how. If you want Moneybox Live to look at a story or even appear on the programme like I did, then get in touch. You can email moneybox at bbc.co.uk or send the team a voice note on WhatsApp.

30:38The number is 033 06783 183. They really do read and listen to everyone. Thank you, Rebecca. We really do. In this podcast, The producer was Sarah Rogers, studio manager Wayne Parks. Our editor is Jess Quayle. I'm Felicity Hanna. And this was a BBC News Money and Work production for BBC Sounds. I haven't seen my son since 2012. That's the last time I hugged him. I know that my son is somewhere alive. This is Deborah Tice. Her son Austin is one of the biggest missing person cases in the world. And for years, I've been searching for him. Oh, gunshots. Somebody's written a message and they're all on blood.

31:23What do you want from me? I want you to solve the mystery. I want to know about my son. Where is Austin Tice? From BBC Radio 4. Listen on the I'm Not a Monster Presents podcast on BBC Sounds.

31:41Sometimes we all need an extra helping hand, especially with a tricky business problem you've been putting off. Claude is the AI for just that. It's the collaborator that understands your entire workflow and thinks with you, not for you. And Claude isn't just for quick questions. Hand it a whole task, like turning a folder of scattered notes into a report, and it does the work and hands back something finished that you can open and edit. Claude can now draft a dock or deck right in front of you, and Claude Design now lives right inside Claude. Describe the website or prototype you're picturing, attach your design system, and it comes back in your own design language ready to edit right on the canvas.

32:21It works with your files and the tools you already use, like Gmail and Slack. And whether you're debugging code at midnight, building a financial model, or strategizing your next business move, Claude extends your thinking to tackle the problems that matter. For problems worth solving, get started with Claude at claude.ai.solve. That's claude.ai.solve. And check out Claude Pro, which includes access to all of the features mentioned in today's episode. Claude.ai slash solve. Innovation has always kept the world moving forward, but it also comes with risk. As technology and AI evolve, AXA XL is facing into risk.

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