276. "I resent carrying our finances. Can we fix this?"

0:00Ramit Sethi: Are you both a team? I feel like I've been carrying the weight for a long time. You said resentment has been building for years. We've talked about divorce. That's like as serious as it gets. I'm out there busting my ass. I was working like 60 hours a week, three jobs, and he wasn't working at all. I retired, so I was like, okay, I can be retired and not have to work again. When did that resentment start? We were going to put a pool in. He was like, we're not putting a pool in. How much did the pool cost? 150 grand. She said, I grew up with a pool. I want my kids to grow up with a pool. She'll say, oh, you just don't want our kids to have fun.

0:32I'm not the villain all the time. Let's also add that he went to Disney the week before by himself. Hold on.

0:37Ramit Sethi: What is this? What's happening right now? Like, we're talking about you and you're jabbing him about Disney. Yeah. It's scary that we have your inheritance and a 401k, and that's basically our retirement. He's worried about investments, but he doesn't invest. It's just me. Until you two work through this, none of the rest of it matters. I certainly like never want to get divorced, but I need some big changes in order to continue. Listen to this line from Lauren's application. Quote, resentment has built up as I manage the household finances, family schedule, and work 55 plus hours per week. And Rob, her husband, works minimally.

1:17Ramit Sethi: He has lots of free time. She goes on to say that the only way she sees to fix this is for Rob to make more money. It's kind of a lot of resentment that's very evident through her words. She further writes, I've gotten extremely frustrated this past year and mentioned divorce. I need major changes. As you can see, the stakes are extremely high. But I will tell you that the income gap is not actually the real problem here. I noticed that there's a story they've been telling themselves about what that gap means. We're gonna get into all of this in detail, but let's take a look at their numbers through their Conscious Spending Plan, or CSP.

1:58Ramit Sethi: Assets,$474 ,000. Investments,$257 ,000. Savings,$24 ,000. And debt, about$70 ,000. Total net worth,$685 ,000. Wow, their net monthly income is$17 ,000, or$204 ,000 in net income. That's a lot of money. Fixed costs are at 81%, which is very high for that income. Investments at zero. savings also at zero. Guilt-free spending not even on the CSP? Huh? It's not even here. You had to affirmatively go and erase it for it not to be on here, so I'm going to find out what happened there. I have a lot of questions for them, but first, I want to take a moment to shout out this episode's sponsor, Delete Me.

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3:15Ramit Sethi: Delete Me, a great sponsor of this podcast. Now, let's get started with Lauren and Rob. Have the two of you seen this application? No. I don't know if you have. Oh, I came home one day and she said, guess what I did? And I said, what did you do this time? I don't think so. And I was like, hoping he'd be open to it. And he was. Okay. All right. Let me read the application because, Lauren, you said resentment has been building for years and you have mentioned divorce. That's like as serious as it gets. When did you fill that application out? Geez, a few months ago. I guess it wasn't that long ago.

3:51Ramit Sethi: Rob, did you know that she had mentioned resentment and divorce? When we did the interview, it came up. And I kind of made the comment, like, I didn't think the big D was on the table with it. But, you know, that's only my half of the story, obviously. And then that kind of hit home because Lauren is wife number three. So I've already been divorced twice. So I didn't want to do that again. And the other two marriages, I didn't have kids or family. So, you know, it was kind of an easier break. And this is, you know, this is my forever home, I guess. I think that kind of resonated with me. Like, okay, let's just work a few hours a day, make some money.

4:36Ramit Sethi: Do you remember the first time you talked about money? Like seriously talked about money? I mean, kind of soon because we decided to build a house together after we were dating for six months. Okay. How'd that happen? What was that conversation like? It was in my name and it was pretty much with some inheritance money. But we needed more room. Well, we were in a two-bedroom condo. With the dog and baby. With a dog and my friend that retired with me because he needed some help transition. So it was just tight. Tell me about this inheritance. Yeah. So unfortunately, both my parents passed away. My mom in 2014, she had cancer.

5:20And then my dad in 2016. And it was like very unexpected. I'm sorry. So, you know, that was tough. Rob met my dad once. Wow. You know, obviously, like my inheritance led us to be able to kind of build the life that we have and, you know, build a house. And so that's a big piece of what I came into the marriage with.

5:43Ramit Sethi: Do you mind if I ask a few questions about the financial parts of that? Okay. How much was the inheritance? $700 ,000. Okay. Did you expect it? No, I think especially with my dad. I mean, my mom was sick. And so I figured maybe we would get some money, but like she had, she didn't make a ton of money. So I didn't expect like a lot. and then my dad it was just so unexpected that definitely was not expecting that I mean I was like wow there's a lot we can do with this I think that's when we decided to build the house and at this point the two of you were dating dating okay I think we were feeling pretty committed to each other I mean he did propose within a year of us you know dating he was I think you were at a point where you wanted to like have a family and kind of had this built-in family How long have you two been married?

6:33Eight years this year. Okay.

6:36Ramit Sethi: How old are the children? Two, five, and ten. Okay. And are the children all from this marriage? No, my oldest is from a prior relationship. Got it. Okay. How did you know how much house you could afford? Probably just looking at like the monthly mortgage we could afford. I was working as a nurse. I wasn't a nurse practitioner yet. We actually downsized from what we originally wanted because we actually said we can't afford the house we want, so we'll just rearrange it because it wasn't, it was basically whatever we wanted he was going to build. He gave us set plans and we picked one and there was some customization.

7:13Yeah, so we were like in a pretty good spot with being able to afford the house that we did build. Okay. So you built a house. We built that house. We put a nice beautiful pool in.

7:24Ramit Sethi: Now I understand that you were the victims of a scam. Oh my God. In the relationship. Can you tell me about this? Yes. It has to do with the pool. Yeah, it does. So when we built that house, by the time the house was ready, we had been dating like a year and three months. And there was this guy working for the like excavating crew that went and prayed on multiple people on this street. And kind of like came up to us trying to like sell us the idea of this like beautiful backyard dream. We're like, yeah. And we were like naive, kind of first-time homebuyers. And he like dug a hole. And we gave him like half the money.

8:05And he ran off with about$40 ,000.

8:10Ramit Sethi: Gone? Yeah, gone. What'd you do? We tried to like go to the police and pursue, you know, something. And they basically said it's like a - The star of the work. Who says he won't come back and finish it? It's a civil matter. We can't do anything about it. And then like I would look him up and I'd see things like I saw a news thing that he, you know, screwed this lady over by like, you know, selling her a car for$10 ,000 and then not giving to her. And I was like, wait a minute. He took 40 grand from us. And maybe we were just stupid in giving it to him because we just were like sold up on the dream or whatever.

8:47But I mean, I guess a lot of people on our street went through very similar things. So this guy was like a professional con artist. And that was like devastating. I mean, that was, you know, part of my inheritance money. That was like.

9:01Ramit Sethi: That money came from the inheritance. Yeah. Wow. What did that feel like? I just felt like an idiot. I mean, I lost a lot of sleep over it. You know, it was like eventually we had to just kind of move forward from it because after we talked to the police and they said they couldn't do anything. Yeah, they couldn't even locate him. He went back to. Yeah, he was. What did the neighbors do? Same. I don't think they got much recourse either. Yeah. Did anybody talk to each other? We did. We went up and talked to a few different ones. Yeah. Some of their jobs were like smaller. Yeah. And he might have done it, but like did a crappy job.

9:37He built a basketball court for one house and the court was like this. It was like slanted.

9:43Ramit Sethi: I mean, it's pretty crazy. What happened with the pool is a violation. They just bought a house. Suddenly all these people come out of the woodwork trying to extract money from them. A lot of times things like this happen whenever you make a major purchase or you buy a house or you have children. Your name gets put on many, many lists and suddenly your private information is getting shared everywhere. Now, there is one thing you can do about it. That is why I love this episode's sponsor, Delete Me, for my personal privacy and for my family's privacy. Something that I encourage you to use because for a very reasonable price, you can have Delete Me out there scouring the internet, removing your personal information.

10:21Ramit Sethi: In fact, you'll get 20 % off all consumer plans when you go to joindeleteme.com slash Ramit and you use promo code Ramit at checkout. Now, handing over$40 ,000 to this scammer says something about how Lauren and Rob make decisions about money. Listen in as we discover some other impulsive spending habits. Is that the house you live in today? No. Oh, what's that reaction? What happened? There's a bit some impulsive things along the way. So I think we built it so fast that we realized, or I realized, like I didn't really like living out in the sticks where we had built it. And so I was kind of itching to move and found a house that was like a flip, completely different, not a new construction, but also we wanted to have more kids and like kind of wanted more space.

11:12And so it was a little crazy.

11:15Ramit Sethi: What part of it was crazy? Just like we built a house. And then two years later, I'm like, oh, let's move, you know? And he was like, no way. And then I went and looked at a house. How do you make that decision? Because one of you is like, I want out and Rob, you're saying no. How did you make that decision together? there was a sauna that's what sold him on the new house oh you convinced him hey if we go to this house there'll be a sauna there there was one at the house i found right and at the time we were both commuting 30 40 minutes to work and she was like this is and kind of like where we want to start the kids in school i was like i don't think i want to be in this town can i just ask the question like how did you not think of this before you built the house because we built it so fast.

12:01I don't think we really sought hard enough about where we wanted to live.

12:06Ramit Sethi: Is this a common thing when it comes to your money? Not thinking ahead? Yes. Rob, you agree? Yeah. More so on that side. More so on whose side? On her side. Okay. So Lauren, you're saying you don't really think ahead. I can be a little impulsive. Right. There's times where she'll like overanalyze like, okay, maybe we shouldn't do this. And then And other times it's, I come home and there's something new and shiny. Hmm. What are some other examples of new and shiny things that you impulsively have? Well, the newest one is a bounce house, which isn't. Like a full-size kid jump in the. Commercial great bounce house.

12:43Ramit Sethi: Wait a minute. How much does that cost? I've never. I don't even know. He doesn't even know. Yeah. Oh, let's reveal it today for the first time. So I know. I was like, did I really just do this before we go on the podcast? How much? So it was$3 ,200. Okay. I thought way less than that, but that's okay. And how did you pay for that? I picked up a weekend of call, extra call, flipping. And it was great. I didn't even get any calls. And I pretty much paid for it. Got it. And is this a common thing where, you know, I want to buy this big thing. I'll pick up an extra shift or two? Yes. Yeah. Okay. And Rob, what is your reaction?

13:17Ramit Sethi: You know, you come home and you see a bounce house. Well, I didn't even, I just was told, hey, you have to be home. There's a bounce house being delivered. I said, oh, we rented a bounce house? And she said, no, we bought one. What's your reaction to that? I kind of hated it. Did you say that? I did. I said, can we return it? And she said, no, the kids are going to love it. So I said, again, can we return it? And I saw her escalate her answer of no, it's paid for. And I just said, OK. Got it. What do you think this dynamic is? around the bounce house. What role did each of you play in this? Lauren?

13:59Just buying it.

14:00Ramit Sethi: Okay, so you just bought it. All right. And then what was your role, Rob? Just dealing with it. Like, okay, that's the way it is. I guess we have a bounce house. Let me figure out where I'm going to store it now. Got it. I like seeing my kids outside having fun off screens. Like, they have this amazing life. Yeah. And I worked hard for it. and I continue to work hard for it. Some of the issues is, and we'll just show it, it's my money or I earned it so I want to spend it the way I want to. Is that true? Yeah. Okay. And is that working for your finances? No. All right. Because I work so hard. I work a lot.

14:46And I think I get resentful or annoyed when he does say no to things because I'm like, well, I'm the one making the money. I'm the one paying the mortgage. Like I don't like to say no when I want something, but also I, I feel like I prioritize what I spend my money on. Like I don't have like designer clothes and bags and all that kind of stuff. Like I really like to spend money on my kids mostly.

15:12Ramit Sethi: So what do you do? I'm like afraid to ask him or tell him about, like ask him about purchases. Cause I know he'll say no. Well, he did say no. Yeah, afterwards. I'm picking up a lot of clues right away in this conversation. Lauren makes the money and therefore makes the rules about money. Rob says no, but gets overruled. I suspect they're trapped in a particular dynamic of the parent child dynamic, which kind of looks harmless, sometimes even funny, like with their bounce house. But this exact pattern often builds resentment on both sides over the years. The The one in the parent role gets exhausted carrying everything alone.

15:50Ramit Sethi: It's also not attractive to be the parent to someone who's supposed to be your intimate partner. The one in the child role feels like their voice doesn't actually matter. And it's clear that they both are carrying a lot of resentment in this conversation. You can see it in the little jabs they keep throwing at each other. We're gonna dig into that resentment right after this. One of the most helpful things that I've started using in the last year or so is meeting notes that automatically tell me what the next action steps are. Clear notes really matter. They are so easy. And that is why I recommend this episode's sponsor, Granola.

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18:20In the application you wrote about resentment,

18:22Ramit Sethi: when did that resentment about money start? I think a big part was when we did move and I just like assumed we were gonna put a pool in. And he was like, we're not putting a pool in. How much did the pool cost? 150 grand. Did you know that when you wanted it? I knew like maybe a little over 100, but. Okay. It's just another aspect of me saying, do we really need it? And she said, I grew up with a pool. I want my kids to grow up with a pool. And I said, well, I didn't grow up with a pool and I'm still alive and kicking. When did that come up? Oh, right after we bought it pretty much. I was like, okay, so when are we going to put the pool?

19:00Okay. And I said, what do you mean? Why would we just put a brand new pool in a brand new house? Why would we not look for a house that had a pool already in it? And she said, well, we're here now. And it kind of went away. And the next thing you know, I have these guys coming surveying the land for a pool. And I said, why are these guys here? I want both of us to be happy. And I don't want him to resent me for just making decisions without him.

19:31Ramit Sethi: Okay. And do you resent Lauren? I wish I had more of a say. Sometimes I don't feel validated because I'll say no, and it just happens anyway. And I guess that could build to resentment. But I don't always say no either. Do you think saying no makes you a bad guy? Sometimes, because that's how it just comes off. Because she'll say, oh, you just don't want our kids to have fun. I'm like, well, do they really need a$3 ,200 bounce house to have fun after we just bought a new Power Wheels and a go-kart. I'm not the villain all the time. Let's also add that he went to Disney the week before by himself.

20:15Ramit Sethi: What is this? What's happening right now? Like we're talking about you and you're jabbing him about Disney. Yeah. We're certainly going to talk about whatever Rob's got with money. We'll talk about that. But I'd like to talk about you for a second. Is saying no in your relationship a bad thing? Yeah. I mean, it's, I guess so. I don't know. I'm having a hard time answering it. How come? Because I want him to be like happy with the way we spend our money. And I want us both to feel good about things. But also I get resentful when he says no and he's not like paying the bills. What about when you say no?

20:54I don't think I say no much.

20:57Ramit Sethi: Got it. Do you ever say no? Pretty rare. You ever say no to your kids? I mean, I feel like about certain things, like I don't want them to be like spoiled brats and just have everything material. And it's not about that so much because otherwise they do pretty much get whatever they want. Lauren, you're smiling. I'm just laughing at how much the bouncy house has come up on this. Yeah. Hold on, Rob. Why are you laughing about it though? It's making me laugh. I was out there last weekend with my kids on it, just watching them spend the whole day out there and be tired out. And like the words that came to my mind were like, this is my rich life.

21:38Ramit Sethi: This is my rich life. So? So it's okay. Ah. Is that how it works? If something feels good to us, it is our rich life so we can buy it? Yes, if I'm not going into like credit card debt over it. So as long as I'm not going into credit card debt, I can get it if I say it's my rich life. Yes. That's it. You look pained right now. Yeah, I feel pained. Why? Just because it sounds like, geez, like she can't say no to herself or say no to her kids or... That's true. Yeah. You can't. You told me that. Yeah. So what's painful about that? I guess it's like a little bit embarrassing that I don't have the restraint to.

22:24Ramit Sethi: What do you think the problem is here? I mean, like, lack of communication, but also just, like, lack of equality and contributing. Got it. So the income is a problem as well. Yeah. Well, he was home with our babies. Like, we decided to have him be a stay-at-home dad, which worked for a while. But then when the youngest went to school, I was like, okay, you need to do something now. You know, he retired from the Navy. If he didn't have kids, he could probably live off that. Fine. but with three kids like I needed him to work and I was getting resentful because I was working like 60 hours a week three jobs and he wasn't working at all so I'd come home and be like sitting on the couch well it's like I retired so I was like okay I can be retired and not have to work again the hard truth was I have to work it took a while for me to realize that I needed to bring in something.

23:17Got it. And I think the biggest pushback I was giving to her is like, well, I'm not going to make as much as she's going to make. Like the job career I took, it's just this, I'm a chef. It's not major money. I mean, okay, I'll go make my$23 an hour. It's not, it's not the best. Will I get a raise? Maybe eventually, but I'm never going to make the same as she does. Like what's, what's it matter? And she would be like, anything you make is something. It's better than zero. And it took, it took, you know, a couple of kicks in the, in the back to get me to realize that. And so I did and it does, it does help.

23:58I think because we have been through a lot of therapy in the past year and like done a lot of communicating and Rob has made some big changes. Like he did get a job. We're both like feeling a lot better. Like we both go to a gym now together. Just we're kind of in a better place. Great. You know, and I certainly like never want to get divorced. I never want to break up my family. I love Rob. But I needed like some big changes in order to continue.

24:25Ramit Sethi: Got it. Are you on the same page with money right now? Not quite. Okay. What do you think the solution is for the problem as you've described it today? Rob, I'll start with you on this one. Just open communication where, you know, I think we wouldn't be so impulsive. Maybe she would be okay. she would think about it a little bit more. Okay. I agree with that. And I do think he needs to work. I don't, not necessarily like make a ton of money, but I think if I'm working three jobs and our kids are in school, then it is reasonable for him to be working at least 30 hours a week or so. Okay. Robert, are you cool with that?

25:03I am. And I am. Okay. I'm picking up more shifts and I'm open to it. I rearranged schedules so I could work more. So this sounds good. Yeah. Let's take the win.

25:13Ramit Sethi: Hold on. Let's take the win. It's kind of like new him working this much. So I'm just hoping that it lasts. Huh? Like you wanted him to work. He said yes. He's actually working. But now you have a new worry, which is I'm just worried it's not going to last. No, it is great. Like that's what I said before is like he's made a lot of changes and I appreciate that. Cool. When I started working, there was a little bit of like you're only going to do two days a week. And I was like, well, okay, I'll pick up more. You know, I rearranged the schedule and now I'm working more. And I think that's what drove her away from the resentment and divorce aspect because she saw that I was willing to change and work.

25:56And I do like where I work. It's, you know, I work at a rehab center cooking food for people struggling. And it's not the best money in the world, but it's fulfilling. and she just appreciates it and that made me happy.

26:11Ramit Sethi: That's cool. I like that. Lauren, now that I know what Rob does for a living, what do you do for a living? I'm a psychiatric nurse practitioner. Got it. And you mentioned you work multiple jobs. What are those jobs? Yeah. So I have one day job, my main hospital. I work in a day program with pregnant and postpartum women. And then I do a telehealth job on the side that's in similar population. and then I teach some undergrad courses at the University of Rhode Island. Got it. Okay, great. And you mentioned that's like 55 to 60 hours a week. Is that right? Yeah, tends to be. Do you like working? I do.

26:48Ramit Sethi: Okay. And do you like working a lot of hours or no? Yeah, like I like to stay busy. It's good for my mental health. I just don't want to be like absent in my kids' lives. Like I want to be home with them at night. But I'm definitely like not a stay-at-home mom. I need to work. Okay. What do you notice about the role each of you is playing in this conversation? I'm feeling guilty. You're on the offensive. Like he always says I'm like a bull when I'm trying to shop. Like I just, you know, I can be impulsive. I make decisions. I don't like being told no. I just kind of like take my stance and like stick to it.

27:29I don't want to disregard his feelings or opinions, but I guess I do. Okay. I am the sheep. Like, I just.

27:39Ramit Sethi: What does that mean? When there's certain decisions she makes, no matter what I say, eventually I'm just going to have to cave and just let it be and then figure out how to cope and get over the, I don't even know what to say. I guess resentment or just the feeling not valued, I guess. Is that how you feel? When it comes to decision making for money, yes. Well, that's what we're talking about. Right, yes. Do you feel valued or not valued when it comes to money in your relationship? I feel undervalued. When it comes to big decisions, sometimes it's like, why bother? Because she's going to make the decision on it and she's just going to go with it.

28:22and I'd rather just deal with it and get over it than cause a huge fight. Got it. Which probably isn't the smartest thing.

28:30Ramit Sethi: Okay. If you're the sheep in this relationship, what does that make Lauren? She's the wolf. She's the bear. Wow. She's the predator. She's the predator and you're the prey. That's right. That's quite an interesting marital arrangement. Right, right. I don't think I've ever heard that one before. Lauren, do you agree? I'm not preying on you. If you're animals, what are you and what is he? I think I'm like a lioness. I'm strong and independent. And I do the hunting. And what is he? You're the lion. You're just hanging out. He's the lion. Relaxing. Yeah. I'm doing the hunting. Okay. I wish I was the lion.

29:07Ramit Sethi: That's interesting. So you're the one who's working, hunting. I think you're intimating about you're making the money. And then the lion, the male lion does what? He's like chilling a lot of the time. Yeah, but now lions, they keep the den in order. I feel this animal metaphor has gone way off track. Yeah, I agree. Like, we all have a different definition of what a lion is. Like, ah, f***. All right. Okay, this is what's actually driving the parent-child dynamic. It's not just about the income gap. It is the stories they have built around it. The stories that we tell ourselves about money can become deeply ingrained in everything we do, and often they don't even reflect the actual numbers.

29:49Ramit Sethi: Lauren has a story that goes like this. I work really hard. I make a lot of money. So he needs to work. Okay, that's a story. Another story that's a little deeper for her is, I make all this money, so I get to call the shots. And then we have Rob, whose story is, well, I'll never make as much as Lauren, so what's the point? I can't contribute equally. What I find striking is that if we just flipped the genders on this, we would see it in a very different light. Think about it. How would you see this if the genders were reversed? I also think it's quite interesting, and while these stories might be true, they're also irrelevant because there are plenty of couples where one partner earns way more than the other ever could.

30:35Ramit Sethi: So what? That doesn't mean that only the higher earner makes all the rules, that only the higher earner has all the power, that the other person should not work at all because they can never equal what their other partner does. No. It means that we need to go deeper than these superficial stories and ask, what kind of life are we trying to create? Do we even need two incomes? Why? What are the trade-offs? What does it mean for the type of rich life we are trying to build? But right now, they're just living here, high up in the clouds, living in stories that may or may not even be true. And anyway, they're irrelevant.

31:09Ramit Sethi: I want to live in your rich life, not in some story that you're telling yourself. Now, let's get into the numbers. Rob, can you read off the word in bold and then the number next to it for this entire box, please? Sure. So that's assets,$474 ,094. Investments,$257 ,316. Savings,$24 ,000. Debt,$69 ,992. Total net worth? Total net worth is, what's that,$685 ,000 and$418 ,000. $685 ,000. What do you think about those numbers? I like them. I would love them to be more. I don't think it's terrible. Like, we aren't in credit card debt, which I am, like, very proud of because we've had times where we did get in credit card debt.

32:02I miss when we were at more like a million dollars, you know. But we have little kids, life, and we have a nice house with a pool. A bounce house. Yeah, I just, I feel okay with them. But I want it to grow as we age.

32:20Ramit Sethi: Got it. And your feeling about these numbers, what word would you use? I'm proud that I feel like I didn't just blow my inheritance. And I know that, like, I've worked really hard my entire life. So I wish I had more in savings. Maybe I'm not great at saving. Okay. Let's take a look at the income. This time, Lauren, can you read off your combined gross monthly income, please? $13 ,500. Okay. That's$162 ,000 a year. But I don't think you filled that out correctly because I don't have one partner's gross income. Is that you, Rob? Probably. I don't see my pension. disability up there. So that's not right.

33:06Ramit Sethi: Do you know the number, Lauren? What I just looked at this morning, it was about$4 ,400. That's what I get just from my retirement. Did you ever not put your retirement in? I don't think that could be because your net is 6 ,562. So the gross has to be higher. Oh yeah, so that's not gross monthly income. Sorry, we messed it up. That's okay, let's just fix it right now. I don't mind if your CSP is wrong. Everybody gets their CSP wrong the first time. It's like learning how to draw for the first time. It's going to be wrong. Don't worry about it. That's why we get to do this together. And I get to show people how to make a few corrections.

33:38Ramit Sethi: So no problem at all. I don't think we know the gross because... If you tell me the net, we can... Yeah, one part's taxed, one part's not. So just for easy math, I don't want to do this part's taxed and this part's not. It's just too confusing. Let's just ballpark it and say like$9 ,000 a month gross. Gross. That's everything. Minus taxes, blah, blah, blah. It's fine. that tells me that ballpark your household income is like 250 to 270 thousand dollars a year did you know that from the looks on your faces i think the answer is no no no okay what does that tell you we're doing okay the fact that we don't know it it's pretty which is kind of crazy i feel like because i'm always so like on the spreadsheet that i'm surprised that i didn't know it i see this multiple times a month.

34:25Well, I think just one other part is probably like the, I mean, that's only maybe $24 ,000 a year, but the two grand a month is like pretty new for me working.

34:35Ramit Sethi: How much did you think your income was? Household? I thought we were like a little over$200 ,000. So. You're off by$50 ,000 to$70 ,000. I know. If you're making$70 ,000 more than you thought you were, you should, what? Know it and feel better. You should feel better. Do you feel better now that you discover you just, Yeah. You do? Yeah. Because it didn't change any of the rest of your financial situation. No, I mean, I guess just overall thinking, I just didn't think it was that high. Okay. Rob? I look at it and I'm like, it's that high. Where is it going? What do you think? Well. There's some mindless stuff.

35:13Definitely fixed costs that we're not realizing is sucking us dry. I don't think it's fixed costs. I think it's like occasional things here and there that we buy.

35:23Ramit Sethi: Can I just point something out that happened? Didn't you come on the show, Lauren, wanting to reduce your fixed costs? Well, I don't think cutting down the costs. I think adding his income to decrease our percentage is what I was thinking about with. Right. But on that spreadsheet, he has my income and it's showing 270. 270 for both of you. Right. Not for one. Yeah. Okay. Let's continue. Your fixed costs are, what's that number? 81%. What do you think of that? It's too high. It's too high. It's too high for two reasons. Number one, that number should be ideally, in my opinion, between 50 to 60%.

36:03Ramit Sethi: Two, y 'all make a ton of money. So when you make a ton of money, that number naturally comes down because the price of bread is the price of bread. Even if you get a really nice house, generally your fixed costs will come down as your income goes. So why is it so high? We're going to dig into that. Your investments are at zero, although you do contribute$500 a month to a 401k. So effectively, you're investing$6 ,000 a year. That's it. That's my scariest thing. When I look at those, I don't know if I've ever really told her that either. Why don't you tell her right now? It is scary that, you know, we have your inheritance and a 401k, and that's basically our retirement fund which isn't really great why does it scare you rob because you know i always try to be the ah we're okay like which probably is not good because that probably helped build that resentment that you had towards me because i never gave you the validation of that fear because it's there i have it we need to fix it what do you think i'm baffled because i'm the only one investing he's not putting any money into investments we have the security of his pension which won't go away of like 4 400 a month but I'm baffled.

37:38He's worried about investments, but he doesn't invest. He doesn't contribute anything to investments. It's just me. I don't know how or what would be the best way to do it. It's not about tactics. Yeah. I mean, I think I could contribute a higher percentage.

37:56Ramit Sethi: It's not about tactics. I don't care about that. You're baffled? I'm baffled because I've never heard you say that. Why is that? Because we haven't talked about it. Well, Why? Because we're afraid to. Why? Because, I mean, I do talk about investments a lot. Why are you afraid? Why are we afraid? Because we don't want the other person to just jab us. I don't know. Stay on that. You're on to something. Because there's always like a backlash or a conflict that comes up. And so what do you do instead? You just avoid talking about it. Yeah. Spend it without consulting. Yeah. Even though we got what we wanted, we still aren't on the same page about it.

38:41One person feels validated and the other one's dealing with the aftermath.

38:47Ramit Sethi: Do you see how many threads there are to pull on this? You have built up these defense mechanisms, just layers and layers of it. And what I'm trying to get at is what's the actual vision that the two of you want? And I don't even think you realize it. It's been kind of sad. somewhat accurate yeah like i can't sometimes tell her no she's just gonna jab me and do it and and do you do the same thing to her like i look at the application lauren you're like i feel resentment we've talked about divorce which is as strong as it gets i'm like oh my god this is serious and then lauren i hear you go well it's actually not that bad you know he's got a job in the last few months, so we're better than ever.

39:28Ramit Sethi: Like, okay, both of those can be true. But if you bring up the word resentment and divorce, that doesn't disappear in a few months. So I hear confusing mixed messages. I can't imagine what that confusion is like in your relationship. I wouldn't say we're better than ever. I would say things are improving. Okay. And I think for me, we have cut some things out of the fixed costs. My vision of how to lower our fixed costs is for Rob to bring in more money. And you mentioned that in your application several times. He needs to work, which he is. So in addition to that, Rob working, we discovered that the two of you make$50 ,000 to$70 ,000 more per year than you thought you did.

40:20Ramit Sethi: So isn't that what you wanted? More money? Yeah, I'm still like a little confused on it. Like I still am like, do we really make that much? Well, let's assume that it's correct because your net monthly income is$17 ,000 per month. Which is correct, yeah. That's$204 ,000 a year net. That's a huge amount of money, especially in the area that you live in. So y 'all are making a lot of money. So is that it? Because that was the number one thing you wanted, at least in the application was Rob should work more. Rob's working. Your income is very high. Are we done? No, still like even with the money that we do have, what we do with it and making that decision together.

41:02Ramit Sethi: Yes. This is not an income problem. I think you presented it as an income problem. And I think there are some really valid reasons to talk about that. If one person's working 60 hours a week and the other is not working at all, that can be a problem. I can see that. But you camouflaged it with, we need Rob to make more income. You'll make a lot of money. How you make that money, we can discuss. How you spend it, we should discuss. But if you are fixated on this is the solution, Rob could work 40 or 50 hours a week. And I don't actually think that would solve these problems. Yeah. I'm actually kind frustrated in parts of these conversations.

41:44Ramit Sethi: I'm frustrated right now. So to make them understand the stakes here, I'm having to ask some really tough questions. Lauren, what do you mean? Why, why, why? And I know it can seem aggressive, but I'm doing it for a very specific reason. Yes, a little bit is that I'm frustrated, but I don't want to let them take the easy way out. I'm not going to let that happen. You can tell a lot about a business owner just in the first few minutes of talking to them. For example, if they are scattered, if they have no plan, if they are hyper-focused on the next shiny object, that kind of tells you a lot. On the other hand, if they are focused, cool, methodical, you can tell that they focus on what they can control.

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44:37Ramit Sethi: That's drinklmnt.com slash ramit. Try it totally risk-free. If you don't like it, they'll give you your money back. No questions asked. Let's go through the numbers and finish off here. Savings are at zero. Yeah, we're not putting money towards savings. You have less than two months of savings. And guilt-free spending, how come it's zeroed out? I feel like I didn't complete it. How much do you think you're spending on discretionary stuff every month? Jeez, two or three grand. I don't know. It fluctuates month to month, probably. What would be some of those examples of things you might spend discretionary on a given month?

45:16Right. Well, the bounce house was from extra income, but like traveling, Disney. I mean, we did have about twice as much in savings and just had to pay our taxes, which was a huge chunk.

45:31Ramit Sethi: We're going to fix the guilt-free spending just to see what the number might look like. If these numbers were 100 % correct, that means the two of you are spending$3 ,270 a month on guilt-free spending. That would be travel, bounce house, Disney trips, any eating out, all of that stuff. $3 ,000 a month. Does that surprise you? No, I think that sounds maybe about right to me. Have you been dipping into savings? Yeah, I mean, we had other properties that we sold. We had rental properties. So this situation we're in now is kind of like where all the chips fell. We had a place in Florida that we sold last year, and the value on that dropped about$100 ,000 from a few years ago, and I wanted to sell it.

46:25so we've had some losses. So have you been dipping into savings? Just for our recent tax, taxes, yeah. Other than that? No, we could pay the month-to-month bills.

46:40Ramit Sethi: How much did you dip into savings for taxes? It was about$20 ,000. Okay. Now that we've looked at the CSP, what is your assessment of the numbers? I think it's okay. I mean, we don't have big debt payments. We don't have credit card where we're like spending all that money on interest. Okay. Like I'm glad we're not at over 100 % like spending more than we make, but I think we could do a lot better. And also like we have two kids in daycare. So one, we're going to stop having to pay that in September. And then another one, the other one, that'll be actually a couple of years later. So I kind of see that in the future.

47:18Like I calculated our fixed costs with one less daycare bill. You know, it's like when you have little kids, it's a high cost time in life, I feel like.

47:27Ramit Sethi: Okay. What's your assessment, Rob? I think it looks good, but it could definitely be better. Okay. Let's look at the fixed costs for a second. So your mortgage is$3 ,813, which is 22 % of gross. That's good. That's good. We like to see that number below 28%. 28%, 22 % is great. Yeah, good job. Your car payment is$1 ,715. What's that? Yeah. I took about$15 ,000 out, right? I took the big loan and then paid off a lot of it. So my payment's kind of high, but it will be paid off in not too long. Can we be specific? How high is your car payment? It's like$800 a month. $800, okay. And Rob, do you have a car payment as well?

48:17Ramit Sethi: I do. How much? $600. Okay. What kind of cars? I have a Tesla Model X. I have a Kia Carnival, a minivan. Okay. Got it. All right. I mean, honestly, with your income, you should easily be able to afford that. So let's look at what the rest of the fixed costs are. We have debt payments of$392. What's that for? That's just our solar loan. Groceries are at$2 ,000 a month. I think that's about what we spend on food. I probably entered it incorrectly. I don't think I've... I was kind of including like, I guess like if I get lunch at work and stuff, but that wouldn't... That would go under guilt-free spending.

49:03Ramit Sethi: Yeah. Help me understand this. You track the money. What do you use to track all this stuff? Like I could have pulled up probably all the money we spend at like BJ's, Walmart, you know, and I didn't. Why? Probably because I didn't have time. I work a million hours. What about asking Rob to help? I don't know if it would have gone done. I don't know. Sometimes I feel like I ask him to do things and it just never gets done. And is this with money specifically? With like different things. That's specifically what matters to you? Well, I mean, there was like when he wasn't working much, I was like, okay, I can hustle and work a lot, but I need you to keep up the house.

49:41And he always was like, okay, you want everything perfect in the house. I don't keep it up to your standards. But like, no, he wasn't doing anything around the house. So I would come home after working. He's not working. The house is a mess. Yeah, it was pretty aggravated.

49:55Ramit Sethi: What about money though? Yeah. I mean, he just, he doesn't manage the money at all, really. What does managing the money mean to you? Just knowing like what's coming in and what's going out. Just paying the bills. Paying the bills. He gets his pension income and like, you know, will pay off the credit card sometimes if it goes up. But other than that, he's got a small amount of bills that he pays. So he does not do a lot. She does a lot of the finances on her. Well, once a month almost without fail. It's like, okay, what's our credit card bills? What's that? And it's. I think I just kind of do it.

50:30And if he showed interest in it, I would probably like do it together with him. But he doesn't really. And then I just like to be in control. So I think I just. I'm interested. And I think it's just more of laziness. Like, oh, she's going to do it. So I'll just tell her what she needs to know. and then she'll print it out and she'll show it to me. And I'll be like, okay. I'm going to give you some feedback.

50:51Ramit Sethi: Managing the money means having a vision for what we want in our rich life. Managing the money means knowing our four key numbers cold. Managing the money means we are using our money to make sure we are living our rich life. And that means, are we investing enough? Are we saving enough? Are we actually spending on the things we love? that's managing money, not making sure that our mortgage bill gets paid every month. How long have you been focused on the day-to-day? A while. I think since we bought like the investment houses and stuff and started to have less like liquid, then we had to kind of watch the day-to-day.

51:35And there was like, you know, definitely times we were living like paycheck to paycheck.

51:39Ramit Sethi: But when was the last time you looked at the big picture? Sure. Well, I feel like I've been worried about the big picture for years. Worrying is not a strategy. I know, but it's like pulling from pulling teeth, you know, to get Rob to actually work has been difficult. And that was the number one thing you wanted, Rob to work. That was a big, yeah. Okay. So Rob's working and I don't want to skip over the frustration because getting a partner to work when you are working a crazy amount of hours that is not easy that's frustrating so rob's working did you magically know the big picture of your money now i guess not i don't know i don't know has it changed anything no because i don't really know where the income that he's making is going either why not we don't use a joint account really are you both a team i think we want to be i feel like i've been carrying the weight for a long time she definitely is the the money maker of the family so she definitely carries more of the financial burden for sure well she makes more money right let's be clear but she also in her own words manages the money right and in her words she's asked you to participate and you haven't you're not functioning as a team and it leads directly to Lauren feeling like she's doing it alone I feel like I had to like dangle the carrot of being like, you know, if you work, we could maybe save towards, we want to go to Disney in Hawaii.

53:11Like, I feel like I had to like make a goal that he's interested in.

53:15Ramit Sethi: It's the same thing that you did with the sauna. Yeah. You have something you want and then you, your role as you see it is to convince him because you know that his role is going to be to say no. I think it's hard for me to take the no seriously when he's not working. But I know, I know, now he's working. I'm happy about it. No, I think you are right that it is hard for you to take him seriously. I agree with that. I think that's actually extremely honest. But I think that you misinterpret that it's a lack of him working because he's working and you have not changed the way that you think about money, feel about money, or even feel about him.

53:54I mean, there's other reasons too. He was sitting home. He was totally inactive. Which means what? Like he wasn't happy and fulfilled.

54:03Ramit Sethi: But let's talk about you. Yeah. What did it mean to you? It meant I was getting very resentful coming home and seeing him sitting on the couch. Because? Because I'm out there busting my ass. And he? Is sitting on the couch watching TV all day. It's like it didn't matter to him that we increase our like wealth. Yeah. You know? It doesn't matter. It's almost like he doesn't care that I work 60 hours a week. Right. You know? I can see how that would pay out. Like she would come home, see me sitting on my ass, and she just got done working her ass off and doesn't validate what she's doing to provide, especially when I'm not contributing.

54:47I think I rely too much with, oh, I get my pension and throw that out. and she, yeah. It took a while, yes. It took a while for me to open up and see like that was...

54:59Ramit Sethi: How long? 21 to 25. So four and a half years. Things don't magically change overnight when somebody does something you want. I suspect that the two of you did not talk about it seriously. What does this mean? Why did I actually want him to work? At the same time, the two of you have to find a way to look forward instead of looking back because how many other marriages do you know where they spend their entire rest of their life together just resentful about something that happened 10 years ago, 20 years ago? Yeah. You both seem like, wow, you're nodding your head. You know a lot of people like that?

55:33Yeah, and I don't want that to be us.

55:34Ramit Sethi: But it is you today. My take on this is that until you two work through this, none of the rest of it matters. What I see are two key things that are at play here. First of all, they have no vision for what their money is. No shared vision whatsoever. It's him versus her, and that's it. Second, they have no shared infrastructure. Their accounts aren't joined. The way they look at money is not the same. And if you take a lack of vision, a lack of infrastructure, it's no surprise that they are disconnected about money. If you were in my chair right now, what would you do? What would your plan of attack B.

56:16Ramit Sethi: I want to understand how you grew up. Lauren, what do you remember your family saying about money when you were a kid? This is where like it all stems from. So, you know, growing up, like we had a nice, I would say like upper middle class. We lived in a nice home. We had a pool. But it was kind of like everything looked great on the outside and was not great on the inside. Like my dad's family grew up very poor, but built a business, my grandfather, and then they did very well. And then my dad worked really hard. Like everyone in my family worked very hard. My dad was very controlling with money.

56:53So my mom always made a point to say like, get your education. Don't depend on a man for money. And I have like stuck to that.

57:03Ramit Sethi: Get your education. And what was the thing about men? Just like, don't depend on a man for money. Cause I feel like she felt very stuck because she didn't make a lot. She worked. Like he always made her work, but she didn't make a lot of money. Do you think that is good advice or bad advice? To not depend on a man for money. I think that's good advice. Okay. It's probably made me a little too independent, but. What does that mean? It's made it hard for me to like manage money in a relationship and like open up and let things be like ours. So things like opening up a joint account. Yeah, I have this feeling of like if I'm working so hard and like I want something, especially because most of the time I don't feel like it's for me, but I know I need to like ease up or let go of that.

57:53If the role's reversed and let's say it's me and I'm working 60 hours a week

57:59Ramit Sethi: and I'm making a lot of money and my wife was a stay-at-home mom, but the kids are a little older and I'm like, you need to work. and she's like, she takes a couple of years and then she gets a job working 20, 30 hours a week. And so when I see something I want, like$150 ,000 pool, I go, I'm just going to get it. What would you say about that? Maybe not the best decision. Really, why? Or approach. I mean, I'm the one who's making the money. I'm working all the hours. Why is that not the best approach? Because it's just going to make the other partner resentful and feel invalidated. and it's going to cause a lot of conflict, stress.

58:42Ramit Sethi: What are you seeing as you say that? Just like looking at Rob, seeing that, like, I don't know, it makes me sad. Do you want to tell him? Yeah. I mean, it makes me sad that you felt like invalidated. Yeah, that's about all I got. It's okay. That's great. Rob, how do you feel hearing that? It means a lot because now she sees it from my eyes. You know, doing this conversation, I see how she didn't feel validated either. Tell her. I see it. We're in this together. I get you work a lot, so you feel like you should do things, but I'm here too. I'm trying to contribute to your team. Do you two talk like that a lot?

59:31Depends how often we're going to therapy.

59:33Ramit Sethi: Yeah. How often is that? Right now, we probably don't go like super often. Maybe like once a month or so. We were trying to do once a month. Yeah. Maybe twice a month. Once a month. Yeah, not very much. If I made$204 ,000 in net, I'd be going at least once a week. Yeah. I know it's like, I'm not saying everything's great now, but it really helped us get from that bad. I'm glad. Last year to. And I, you know, I think sometimes she is afraid to ask me about it. About knowing more? Yeah. And I'm always like, okay, let's do it. But I think. I feel that this passive thing is not working, Rob. Like, why is she the one bringing it up?

1:00:09Ramit Sethi: And she's the one asking and she's the one proposing. Rob, part of the whole crux of today is you recognizing your passivity and actually stepping up and saying, I'm ready to be an equal partner in this relationship. Equal does not mean you have to earn as much as her. Equal means you have to be an equal partner. Presence, proposals, driving things. Why does she have to be the one driving therapy? That's true. I guess I could. And in therapy, we were just talking about the same thing over and over because he wasn't making the changes. And the therapist would be like, we're back here again. That's like this conversation.

1:00:45Yeah. So what's the strategy going forward? because asking, begging, pleading,

1:00:53Ramit Sethi: and then just like buying stuff and not telling you, that doesn't work. Yeah. What's the strategy here? Joining our money into the joint account. Yes. What else? Therapy. Definitely. Good. Keep going. I like this. You working consistently. Right. Which I enjoy working again. Yes. And now go back to her now. She said, you need to work. And you're like, I am working. And now tell her what you need from her. I need you to realize that I'm never going to be at the same level of income. I realize that. Rob, why don't you tell her, I need you to recognize that I am working. I need to take responsibility for not working for years.

1:01:35Ramit Sethi: Yes, but now I am, and I need you to rewrite that story that you are bringing into this conversation. Tell her that. Right, because you say it a lot when I need Rob to work. I am working. I'm going to work as much as I can. I think, Rob, you find it difficult to really say what you want. That's a pattern I've noticed. That's what therapy is for. But are you hearing what Rob wants? For me to stop saying, like, I need him to work. Yes. You're operating on an old story. It's not that old. Oh, okay. So it's still here. So then you should keep going. It's just, I think, with time and consistency, I'll like I'm hearing that I need to stop but you know a month ago it was well I can't work Monday, Wednesday or Friday because I need to go to the gym at noon that's not acceptable no right and I changed it yeah so now he's going earlier in the morning so like great I'm seeing changes it's great but after years of asking and begging it takes a little time for me to totally agree I think the key here is that the two of you have not really grappled with what has happened both of you and so like you can't get over this resentment and you come in here you're like oh we just need like some more money and this and that like that's not this has nothing to do with this like until and then you're not in therapy so how are you gonna fix it yeah we need to rebuild this piece by piece and it can't be one person driving it because it's been that way at least financially for a long time and it actually has not gotten you the results you want so if it's me steps in this order number one therapy once a week and Rob, you're the one driving that, scheduling it, et cetera.

1:03:20Ramit Sethi: Two, it's money conversations once a week and each of you is rotating. One of you can do it for once a month, the other can do it for the next month for those four meetings and you're driving it using the money for couples agenda. You're flagging the numbers, you're talking about how you feel and you're actually using that time as well to reflect on the things you learn in therapy and apply them to your finances and then it's actually coming up with your vision of a rich life and using your money to live it one two three do you think you could do that yeah cool it takes a lot but i think you could as well rob can you tell me what you remember about your family saying when you grew up about money almost a complete 180 of lauren's upbringing uh only child my dad died young i was in seventh grade cancer um my mom and dad not college educated mom is gd you know they just she works at a nurse she well not anymore she worked at a nursing home he built tombstones so you know life was good you know as far as i could tell you know my you know my cousins they had more money and stuff but never felt like ostracized for that from the family you know uh i didn't have a lot of toys growing up lived in a very small house um were you poor i don't know if i would say i was poor uh very low income like how low there was no i never felt like at least my mom never made me feel like it like we were struggling to eat or clothed or be evicted from the house okay but you know i knew not to ask for the newest shiniest thing because i didn't want to have my mom struggle to get it or have her tell me no like we can't afford it i started working 14 at any off the book jobs like sweeping a candy store the guy would pay me a few dollars just anything just to to bring in money so you know to help my mom out you know the family wouldn't have let us struggle but there was definitely times where you know my cousins would go on vacations and we didn't go and it's funny you know i'm a big disney guy now but growing up we went once that's basically all we could afford like what did it mean to you to go to disney as a kid it was great it was a family trip.

1:05:54You know, it was, there's still pictures hanging up on the wall of all the family down there. You know, it wasn't just me and my mom and dad. It was my aunts and uncles and cousins. So it was like a family vacation.

1:06:06Ramit Sethi: Um, and now that you are a Disney guy, what does that mean? I love bringing the kids there. The kids love it too. You know, they're not the biggest ride goers, but the nostalgia and just the magic, they get swept up and it's fun seeing. How often have you gone? Oh, it's been a while for a family. I just came back because I did a run weekend. As a family, it's been a couple of years, two years since we all went together. Okay. Is that a long time or a little? It's a long time in retrospect for a while because we had a house down in Margaritaville, so we were there quite a bit. How often would you go?

1:06:48Six times in one year. Yeah, we went about six times in one year.

1:06:51Ramit Sethi: Okay. Anything else about your family growing up with money? Anything happen when you were a teenager with money? I mean, the biggest thing I can think of is that I was supposed to go to a way to school. And, you know, I overheard my mom saying, talking to her sister, like, oh, that financial aid that I was counting on didn't come. So I don't think we can afford it. And I just kind of heard her and said, that's okay, I'll just go to community college. but that only lasted like two semesters and I didn't think it was working so I joined the Navy and how long were you in the Navy for 20 years okay the way you tell the story about money growing up is um kind of like yeah like some things happened it was tough but like it's fine that's the energy I get would you say that that's accurate yes it's just we always made it.

1:07:44And that's just how I look at it. You know, I kind of, you know, I don't want the, I would never want my kids to have to be raised like that. And I've told her that like, you know, I want my kids to have more than I did. But what I had when I grew up was fine because I'm, I'm happy. I'm alive. I'm.

1:08:04Ramit Sethi: Are your kids on track to be raised like that or different? Different. They're definitely well provided for. Anything that you want to add? Sometimes a partner knows best. Just that, you know, even if his mom didn't make a lot, she really hustled. I know she was a really hard worker, and so she did make things work, and she's done, like, well for herself, and his parents are very generous and help us out things with the kids and stuff. Like what? Like they bought us a basketball hoop. when they have money that they can spend on us and the grandkids. Like, I know it makes them happy to do so. His mom was a hustler, worked really hard, kind of like you.

1:08:49I think that's why I married Lauren. Sometimes it makes me wonder, like, why she didn't put the fire under him a little more. I mean, he did go in the Navy for 20 years. but overall I don't feel like this we don't have like the same drive do you both acknowledge that yeah okay totally like that's okay as long as you both accept what the implications are

1:09:12Ramit Sethi: right two people of a different drive can totally have a happy relationship I'm not sure that you have accepted it do you think you have no I'm not happy with the lack of drive okay did you know it When you got married? Not so much because we got married just a couple years into dating. And it was like, I mean, I didn't have the best picker before. So just the fact that he was like in the Navy and had stable employment, I was like, you know. Do you think that you mentioned, I wonder why Rob's mom didn't give him more drive. Do you think that you are giving your children that drive? That's tough.

1:09:47I hope so. He would probably say no because he kind of thinks that they're like catered to. And, you know, I hope that they see how hard I work to like provide everything for us.

1:09:59Ramit Sethi: Well, maybe they do, but then maybe they just go and marry somebody who does the same thing. Yeah. Kind of like what's happened here. Yeah. I mean, he often will kind of say like, well, like if the kids get to do something or have something that I bought, he'll say like, well, I grew up poor. We didn't have that. And I feel like that's used a lot as like a, almost like a little stab. and it's like, I didn't grow up like rich, you know, but like I also started working at 14. Everyone in my family, same thing. This is so interesting. This is it right here. I'm going off. No, that's really helpful because Rob, you know, to Lauren, you say you grew up poor.

1:10:41To me, that's not the way you describe it.

1:10:44Ramit Sethi: You go, I never felt poor. I never, so already mixed messages. Both of you communicate mixed messages all day long. and neither one of you is actually coming together to create a joint vision. So you both came in here asking for better communication. I'm showing you how to have that communication. Does this feel like completely foreign to you or are you like, oh yeah, like we need to do that? Yeah, I think it resonates. Yeah. If we ended this conversation right now, would you have that type of conversation? I would be calling the therapist. Yeah, with a third party. Okay, that's valid. The most salient thing I take away from Lauren's upbringing is that phrase her mom told her, which is a man is not a financial plan.

1:11:30Ramit Sethi: I think that's good advice, but good advice can also be taken too far in the same way that saving too much money can turn you into a hyper frugalista. When you believe a man is not a financial plan, you go, cool, I need to be independent. I need to have my own job. I need to have an individual account that's just mine. Love it. I support all of those things. If you take it too far, you do not include your spouse in the financial infrastructure and you keep separate accounts and you don't listen to him or respect your spouse when it comes to money. You don't even include them because you go, oh, they're just not going to get it.

1:12:02Ramit Sethi: A man is not a financial plan. What do they know? And you suddenly become an operating party of one. What I hear from Rob's upbringing is exactly what I expected. He grew up poor, even though he won't say that to me, but he said it to Lauren. Everything that he describes is like, yeah, it was fine. It wasn't that big of a deal. Very stoic, very inaccessible when it comes to the feelings of it all. I can spot that as somebody who grew up talking in a similar way. But yet him growing up poor is revealed when he says things like, I did it this way. So what if our kids have to go through the same thing?

1:12:42Ramit Sethi: Their upbringings are totally connected to how they see money today. And there's one more thing from their past I want to revisit. And that pool scam, the$40 ,000 that disappeared, I suspect that single event set the tone for how they've dealt with money for their entire marriage. Listen in. Think about the resentment that you feel with money in your relationship. Is there any connection to what happened with the pool? I don't think one of us blamed to the other. I think we were both kind of like equally naive. Um, but it was just like, it sucked. I mean, how did that even happen? Like, um, like I had a good amount of money that time.

1:13:24We weren't married yet. So it was still like

1:13:26Ramit Sethi: my money just felt very stupid. I think then it felt like we had a lot more of a cushion cause we just like came into all this money. And whereas now it's like, we don't have as much liquid because we've spent things on life over time and we've had properties and now we have three kids. So back then it felt like it didn't feel good to lose 40 grand, but it didn't feel like, I don't know, still pretty devastating, but we just had more money then. Rob? Yeah. Like how did it happen to us? We're not dumb people. And how did this guy just sell the dream to us without us realizing like, oh, wait, no, why are we giving you all the money up front instead of half and half or...

1:14:14Were you

1:14:15Ramit Sethi: intimately involved with his milestones, the contract, the legality of this pool guy? No, probably not. No? Nowhere near. Are you intimately involved with your expenses? Probably not, no. There's a lot of stuff there that was not... The details weren't there. Yes. Do you feel embarrassed or stupid about some of your spending? I guess just not like knowing every little detail about some of those costs, like our food costs. You feel what? Just like, I wish I was a little more prepared, I guess, coming on. But I think I thought I was. And also like just being a very busy working mom of three, I don't feel like I always have time to like track every detail.

1:15:01Ramit Sethi: And how about Rob? He doesn't track any of it. Got it. Kind of like the money. Do you see any similarities between the pool and this, your finances? I didn't, I almost didn't care maybe. Yes. And why did you have the privilege of not caring? Because it's all going to work out. Yeah. Just like it did when I was a kid. Just like it is right now. It's all working out, right? You got a roof over your head. You got a nice bouncy house. You went to Disneyland two years ago, et cetera. It's all kind of working out. Lauren, any connection you see to the pool and today's finances? Yeah, just like some carelessness and also just like impulsivity.

1:15:42Like I definitely struggle with impulsivity. So yeah, I mean, it was pretty impulsive to just give that guy 40 grand. Totally. On top of what we had to spend to fix the mistakes. So it was, I was thinking to myself, if that happened today, how much more devastating it would be? because I would pretty much empty it out, whatever savings left we have with nothing left behind. So it's scary. Yeah.

1:16:11Ramit Sethi: I appreciate you saying that. It is scary. I think that that inheritance, the money from it, shielded a lot of lessons that you otherwise would have had to learn. and I it doesn't seem like you have changed your financial understanding or behavior in the subsequent years since I don't think you grappled with the enormity of that decision with the pool and like really had an honest post-mortem like we we go on a vacation not to sound like freaks because I know I'm a bit of a freak I like documentation stuff but like after a trip we take we will sit down and talk about what went well what didn't go well like what do we like What do we want to change next time?

1:16:57Ramit Sethi: We want to try to learn each time we do this. And I'm not saying everybody has to do that. It's just what works for us. But if I went through something where I got scammed out of$40 ,000, I'll be having a postmortem. What happened? No blame. What happened? I said this, you said that, I assumed this. Here's what we're going to do differently so that next time we never get into this situation. No beating yourself up, just acknowledging something you did, which wasn't great, and what you're going to do next time to change it. You think you could do that? Yeah. Great. Your vision of a rich life, what is it?

1:17:32Ramit Sethi: Think about like what happens five years from now, 10 years from now. What is your vision of a rich life? We have more in savings and investments. This experience with you and this vacation from the kids, you know, it's made us both realize that like, we need this. We need more of this. Yes. We need to get away together. Why? We're, we're undistracted. Our focus is on me and her and the kids are in Rhode Island. They're safe. They're sound. This is what we need. Great. And she kind of said the same thing last night. Like we need more of this. Yes. So what is it? Tell me. You want once every 10 years you want to do this?

1:18:13Ramit Sethi: No. Once a year. Once a year. Once a year I want this. You want a trip with just the two of your friends here. And not worry about like, oh, should we spend only 150 on a hotel? or like... How much? Seven grand a year just for a vacation, just the two of us. Okay. What do you think about that? I think we could probably go cheaper. Right. That's your reaction? He comes to you with a proposal and your reaction is like, let's squash that dream. It sounds too much. No, I don't want to squash the dream. I think just getting away, the two of us, is, yeah, huge. I'm all bored for that. Okay. The amount is a detail?

1:18:52Yeah.

1:18:52Ramit Sethi: that the two of you could work on. But when I hear my wife come to me and say like, I really want to do this. You know what my reaction is? 99.999 % of the time. That sounds amazing. How do we do it? What if it was even bigger? And I don't talk about numbers at that point. We could deal with that later. But it is so rare for somebody to get excited about doing something that on that rare occasion, your only job, unless it's going to risk your life, is to meet them with that level of excitement and get excited as well. I love your excitement, Rob. It's a powerful vision. And I think the fact that the two of you are like, we need this, amazing.

1:19:33Ramit Sethi: Great. What about for you? Seeing my kids happy. Seeing my husband happy. Me feeling happy. I like that we each get our own little things that we like to do. Like he'll take that trip to Disney. I got away for a few days last fall without the kids. It's them getting to have experiences, us getting to go on vacations, but also like knowing that we're going to have something to leave behind for them. Like that's a big part for me is. Where's that? I don't see that in your CSP. It's not in there. Before we, when we had more liquid cash, I had like$100 ,000 set aside for the kids that I wanted to invest.

1:20:13Ramit Sethi: Where'd it go? With like the sales of the houses, it's gone. So how do you want to do that? We'd have to take a portion monthly and like automate it into savings or. Where's it going to come from? Both of us. I mean, he was like with that, he was like, they don't need that. Like I never had that. They don't need. They didn't pay for my college? They can join the military. That's what he said. And is that true, Rob? Do you feel that way? Sometimes. When she's like, oh, we need to pay for college. I was like, ah, they can just do four years in the military. Well, also my parents didn't pay for college.

1:20:45I worked almost full time through college.

1:20:47Ramit Sethi: So then why do you need to pay for their college? It's more, it's not really about paying for their college. It's more about giving them like a nest egg, like I got with my inheritance. And do you two have a nest egg for yourself? No, I mean, all our money is just like in equity in the house mostly. So what's going to happen? I don't know. We need to build our nest egg. Yes, we do. So like, you want to make a plan for that? Or is it just like we should? No, we do. Yeah. Okay. So back to the numbers, if you don't mind. Rob, you want to keep working until 60 or 70 at this type of role that you have now?

1:21:20No, not at all. When you want to retire? I could work until I'm 60. I wouldn't want to work at the job I'm at now, but. Not a straight answer. Yeah. All right. 65 would be good for me.

1:21:34Ramit Sethi: What's happening with you, Lauren? I'm just saying like we suck at giving straight answers. Yes. it wasn't kind of what I was expecting coming on here for us if like to feel like we were so like wishy-washy about things it's because neither one of us wants to take the blame or the the failure or that's very insightful do you agree with that lauren yeah it's like the two of you are playing not to lose instead of playing to win do you see the difference yes playing not to lose I'm not going to take the first step. If they say that, I'm just going to say no, but like, I'm a pushover. I'll let it go.

1:22:14Ramit Sethi: Whatever I want, I'm going to reason it out for my kids, but I can't say no to myself either. But that makes me embarrassed. Playing not to lose instead of playing to win. What does playing to win look like? Having a shared vision and having a nest egg, having retirement, having our money together. Yes. Shared goals. Yes. Keep going. Not having to like hide purchases from each other. Right. Keep going. How are you feeling? Like last night when you're walking around and today in the morning, the beautiful weather, how are you feeling? Good. Good. Fun. Yes, invigorated. Playing to win is fun. It is.

1:22:47Ramit Sethi: It's not drudgery. You both envision money as drudgery. You hate it. But playing to win with money is fun. It's beautiful. We get to do things. And if we can't do them today, we know when we will be able to do them. And we are working on it together. i i agree i think when finances come up we're both afraid to be the bad person in it yes whether it's she wants to buy or whether it's me saying no we are afraid to just talk about it and get on the same page because we don't want to be the bad person in it yes and so we'll make it look like we're the good person in our roles. That's really why you came here today, to look like the good person.

1:23:38Ramit Sethi: And anything that comes your way, in fact, as recently as two minutes ago, anything that comes your way, toss it over to the other person and jab them. It happens over. It's a deep seated pattern that you have. You could totally change it, 100%. I know for a fact, but you have to have a reason why. And right now, your$257 ,000 that you invested grows to about$2.9 million by the age of 70. And that money gets you about$116 ,000 a year from investments. Lauren, that would be like for you, even though you're married. Rob's pension of$54 ,000 a year, that would be a total of$170 ,000 a year in retirement.

1:24:28Ramit Sethi: How do you feel about that? Not good. Well, by then, hopefully we wouldn't have a mortgage. So let's just take it out so you can see. This is all already accounts for inflation as well. So right now you're at 81 % fixed costs. I'm going to zero out your mortgage. That number dropped to 58%. You would not theoretically need to invest more money, you're retired, and you would have, that's a lot, well, you'd have$7 ,000 a month in guilt-free spending. It's not bad. That's a lot of money. This is a very fine plan. In part, a couple of reasons. One, we have the pension that's guaranteed. Two, we have the money that is growing at$257 ,000 and you're relatively young and you would continue, you know, investing a little bit of money.

1:25:23Ramit Sethi: What do you think? It looks great. I think about where is the money we leave our kids. Yes, where is it? That's where I feel like we need to invest more. Okay, that's good. That's a source of agreement. I like that. I want to point out that$170 ,000 a year is$30 ,000 less than you currently make. Are you okay with that? I am. Like if we didn't have a mortgage payment, I think that would be okay. Cool. Rob? Yeah. What's the hesitation? It's okay. I just, I don't know, I just think of, we're not thinking of like kids and grandkids. I think that's a valid point. I do think with$7 ,000 a month, that is a lot of margin to play with.

1:26:07Ramit Sethi: A lot. That's trips and that's the occasional gift to the kids, the grandkids, all that stuff. What I think is notable is that your savings, you never really set a goal for your savings right now. So this is all assuming everything works out perfectly. That nobody gets sick, nobody loses a job, etc. Parent illness, whatever it may be. I don't want to be making like hundreds of thousands of dollars and not have more than a month's worth of savings. Yeah. Do you want to fix it? Yes. All right. Let's put the mortgage back. How much do you want to invest? You both agree you want to invest more. We start with a goal of like doubling what we do.

1:26:46Ramit Sethi: Okay. I'm going to show you what happens. That's at 3%. You have$2 ,770 a month left over. Are you guys good with that? Would you like to build up your savings perhaps? I would like to make a goal of like$500 at least a month. Okay. From my current job. Okay. You're down to$2 ,270 a month for guilt-free spending. I think right now it feels like you're both like, yeah sounds good because you actually have no idea how much you're spending every month yeah we don't this is all hypothetical and guys this is why like knowing your numbers like you came all the way here and neither of you actually looked at real numbers what do you make of that it's an opportunity you have that because you're not aligned do you see how many opportunities come up in life and because you're not aligned you just kind of let them go i feel like i looked at most of the numbers.

1:27:39I feel like it's like the details of the like guilt-free spending and then what food. Those are important numbers. Right.

1:27:46Ramit Sethi: See, what's happening here is you have to go back to your mental model. Your mental model is I pay the bills. That's what managing money is. So you're dialed in. You know, your mortgage, you know, your utilities, you know, your car payment. And you're like, yeah, I take a lot of pride in that. But actually that's the least important stuff on this CSP because that's always the same. It's automatic. We don't need to even think about it. What really matters into CSP are the four key numbers. And underneath those numbers tend to be discretionary things. For you two, it is food, kids, and travel. Those three can swing your expenses by like$50 ,000 a year.

1:28:25Ramit Sethi: So it actually is really important to know. What's your approach for figuring these numbers out together? How are you going to do it? Sit down and look at them and look exactly like how much we spent at BJ's or Walmart for food and how much other things are coming out that we don't really. Yeah, we could like pulling up all of our spending. Who's going to start? Who's going to pull it up? We both have the apps, right? Good. And then what if you discover that you have to say no? We'll be okay. What if you have to say no to your kids? they're fine. They have everything they need. They honestly, they don't ask for things.

1:29:08Like, really.

1:29:09Ramit Sethi: Yeah, that's why I'm not blaming the kids. Yeah, no. It's me wanting to like provide this lifestyle. But when they do ask for things, it's usually... So how are you going to deal with that? You're going to have to stand with me in solidarity and say, No. No. I love that. That is a great, that's a great answer. Yeah, like, I love you saying, look, I'm actually not great at this This is something that I really struggle with And Rob you've pointed that out a lot And I realized This isn't a skill I'm particularly good at So I need your help I need you to help me even practice how to say no Because it's so hard for me And then when we go to the kids We got to do it together And I need you to support me I need your hand on my shoulders That's what we're talking about here Right?

1:29:55Ramit Sethi: That's cool And then Rob you can say the same thing hey, I know that I have not been working for a few years, and I know that you expected more of me, and I did not live up to those expectations. I have a lot of work to do. I realize that I'm going to the therapist. I'm managing the calendar on that. I'm leading our financial meetings. All I ask is that you watch what I am doing because I'm ready to be a partner here. And then you, Rob, you actually have to do all that stuff. Let's do it. That's pretty cool. Yeah. I suspect that the way that you have been spending money is basically just like, we're just going to spend it and as long as we're not going to credit card debt, it's fine.

1:30:41Ramit Sethi: That ends today. Because from now on, you will project anything that you're going to buy. Anything above a certain number, I suggest over$500. The two of you have to both agree. If you both do not agree, it's a no. It's going to be so hard. Yeah. I appreciate you recognizing that. The two of you will have to rewrite your roles. What's happening right now? These interesting facial expressions. I think we're like both. Eager. Down. Yeah. Yeah. It's definitely going to be hard because we're setting our ways. Yeah. But like none of that's working. And like I said, we have changed a lot, even just like in our own lifestyles and gotten so much healthier over the past year.

1:31:25We can make changes.

1:31:26Ramit Sethi: I love that. Rob and Lauren 2.0. That's what you're working. And you can even define it. Here's what Rob and Lauren 2.0 are. They look good. They feel good, etc., etc. That's cool. I love the smiles on your faces. We both want this life, but since we weren't open to talk about it, we've been putting, working towards that life together and reaching it sooner. It's a disjustice to both of us. We were given tools that we're now going to implement because we both want to instead of trying to do it ourselves. Because obviously it's not working and it's just going to lead to the ultimate destruction of our marriage and our family, which we both don't want.

1:32:11So better that we have this opportunity to fix it and stop the bleeding. And I'm grateful that Rob is willing to engage. He was willing to come out here. I wasn't sure how he was going to feel about it when I applied without telling him. So I feel good too.

1:32:31Ramit Sethi: This was one of the toughest conversations that I've had on this podcast. Every time I pulled a thread, it's like five more unraveled and nobody really wanted to look at what was underneath. And you could probably tell I got frustrated at certain points. So if you are watching Rob and Lauren, I want to thank you for being here. And I want to apologize if I came across as too direct at times or if I was rude. You do have a lot of work to do. It's complex. It's layered. Even with a therapist on a regular basis, it's going to be hard. The good news is that you have a high income and a high income can hide a lot of problems.

1:33:11Ramit Sethi: The bad news is that only works for so long. Eventually, reality hits and what is left when you confront that reality are the actual dynamics underneath the money. Here's what I keep coming back to. Before they were married, Rob and Lauren handed a contractor$40 ,000 without a contract. No milestones, no one checking where the money was actually going. I said it earlier and I meant it. I think one scam might have set the tone for their entire marriage around money. It taught them that when money goes wrong, you don't sit down and talk about it. You just eat the loss. You get a little bit more guarded with each other.

1:33:49Ramit Sethi: And that's still showing up in how they operate today. Another thing about that scam, it didn't come out of nowhere. Scammers find you because your information is out there. Your name, your address, the fact that you just bought a house, which everybody knows because they want money as part of that transaction. That's public. People use it to figure out exactly how to target you. And that's how the pitch ends up sounding really personalized. I use Delete Me for exactly this reason. My family's information, my information, I want it off the sites that sell it one by one. And we can't undo what's happened to Rob and Lauren, but we can try to control what information about ourselves is shared online publicly.

1:34:31Ramit Sethi: This is about making yourself a harder target before someone else decides to try. Go to joindeleteme.com slash Ramit and use code RAMIT for 20 % off a plan for you, and your family. Now let's check out their follow-ups. Hi, Rami. It's Lauren. Thank you again for having us on your podcast. We really enjoyed participating. I think the biggest surprise for me was talking about our relationship dynamics more than our finances. Hearing that our conscious spending plan wasn't complete, I had kind of estimated the cost of things like groceries, which Rob thought I overestimated. And then hearing our gross income, I didn't think it was that high.

1:35:17Takeaways, I would say we need to work more as a team. I need to let Rob take a bigger role in our finances if I expect him to contribute and care more about them. And I think I need to stop looking at things like, well, you spent this so I can spend that. And then we have already made some changes. As soon as we got home, I doubled my 401k contribution. Yesterday, I had an intro call with Facet, and we're planning to move our investments from a percentage-based fee advising system to the flat fee. And then just making our checking accounts joint and giving each other a debit card and the login information, and then having the one main checking account that we work out of planning for Rob to contribute$500 a month to savings, and then just going through our grocery bills to get an accurate estimate.

1:36:15So the biggest surprise was the fact that even though we communicate, we're not really doing very meaningful communication of just day-to-day relationship money. So we really need to work on that. And we have been in the past and currently, but obviously we're not doing it to the best of our capabilities. The biggest takeaway was just saving. We're not saving enough. I think we talked about it and we came up with a plan. Even though we have the same worries, we're not communicating them, so we're not on the same page for money. That was the biggest takeaway is that we need to get on the same page even with some of our visions and our means of getting there.

1:37:08So what we've done already is she's already doubled her contribution to the savings, her 401k. I am looking to start saving$125 a week and make it$500. We've already scheduled a therapy appointment for this Saturday. And that will be our first time talking about money, since it would be better to do it with a mediator. Hi, Rameet. Just checking in on our follow-up. So some changes we've made. Rob has picked up another day at work, so he's working four days instead of three. Some wins that we've had, we finalized our will and trust, the state plan. We had a little bit of credit card debt build up again, and Rob was able to pay off$4 ,000, which was a nice relief for me that he was able to take care of that.

1:38:01The challenges we faced, just kind of like losing my academic year pay over the summer and not just filling up all that time with work and picking up hours and trying to just actually enjoy the summer and some time for myself, which is rare. and some mindset shifts. I think we just feel like more of a team and I'm seeing things less individually and more like I have a partner in managing our finances. So thank you for all your help. We're gonna just keep working on things and keep listening to the podcast and it was great to be out there. Thanks. So what has happened in the months since our meeting?

1:38:45A lot actually. I continue to increase hours at work. So I'm almost up to five days a week pretty consistently. Lauren has already doubled her contributions to her savings claim. So we are getting our ducks in a row. The challenges are still the same as we discussed. Saying no to the kids, being more transparent about money, everyday decisions. We are still working with our therapist with that. and she is very eager to see the episode. But we've definitely made some headway. Our mindset has changed. We're much more open to approach each other about what we're thinking on buying or what we shouldn't spend on this.

1:39:31And that's come from our meeting with Ramit and our therapist that we've seen quite regularly since the episode was taped. So I can't wait to see what the future holds and can't wait to keep giving you guys updates of how we've changed and accomplished our goals. And I'm very eager to see what's ahead of us.

1:40:00Ramit Sethi: If you want to know the exact month and year that you will have$100 ,000 in your investment portfolio, sign up for my new program, Road to 100K. I'll help you hit that number fast. Go to iwt.com slash 100k to sign up.