283. “We have 3 kids and live paycheck to paycheck. Are we screwed?”

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0:41Ramit Sethi: You can join this program today at iwt.com slash 100k. We're trying to figure out, okay, how are we gonna get the kids to school or which of those we could skip this month because I feel like sometimes we're drowning. Your fixed costs are 87%. You have very little savings. You have kids. If something happened, you all are in big trouble. What solutions have you looked for, engaged with? We've done credit cards, personal loans. We have looked at bankruptcy. My philosophy is I give her the money and she does what she needs to do with it. Does it work? No, I don't always feel like I know what I'm doing.

1:17I feel like I'm just piecing things together so we can get to the next paycheck. Why is it you? Honestly, I don't trust Jeff to handle the money. I'm in my own little world. I just don't look at it. If I don't ask about it, then I don't

1:30Ramit Sethi: have anxiety about it. You both came on money for couples. The only way that two of you will succeed is if the two of you are a team. And right now, this is the opposite of teamwork. I'm about to speak with Michelle and Jeff. They're 45 years old. They have three children. And in their own words, they are earning more than ever before, but they are living paycheck to paycheck. Now, one of my favorite parts of my Netflix show was being able to look at my guests' actual spending before I ever met them. And now with Monarch, I can. Monarch is a private personal finance app that brings all of a household's accounts, checking, credit cards, loans, and investments into one clean dashboard.

2:12Ramit Sethi: And they've built my conscious spending plan directly into their product exclusively for my audience. That means fixed costs, investments, savings, guilt-free spending are automatically tracked as a percentage of take-home pay. So if you want to see your conscious spending plan in a living, breathing dashboard that updates in real time, you can try it for free and get 50 % off your first year of Monarch Core with code RAMEETH at monarch.com slash RAMEETH. Loans, they have a Nissan Pathfinder for$48 ,000. What? That's a lot of money. Whoa. Oh, okay. So their car payment, I think, is$999. Klarna, why are you using Klarna?

2:57Ramit Sethi: I have a lot of questions. So let's get started with Michelle and Jeff. Michelle, in your application, you said, we can't get ahead. We're making the most money we've made in our adult lives. And it feels like we're still living paycheck to paycheck. Is that still accurate? Yes. we were or I was in the process of trying to figure out how to make our bills that month. We had just started working with a debt management plan and I was trying to figure out a budget. I was trying to figure out how are we making as much as we are, but I still go to the grocery store on Sunday and worry about the total.

3:42I'm trying to piece it together. the worrisome on her face of I got to move this money from this account to this account or split it up between these two accounts so we can have money to feed the kids for the week. And, you know, it's the same, the worry, the anxiety and the stress on her face is, you know, it's not

4:05Ramit Sethi: something that I want to see. And Michelle, how long have you been the person in charge of managing the family finances? Since the start, we joke that our relationship started with me taking his money in Monopoly. Oh, uh-huh. My philosophy is I give her the money and she does what she needs to do with it. And I take care of the house. And it just sort of continued that way, I think, because I had more experience at the time. I'd been living on my own for a while. So I was more familiar with doing things like taxes and insurance and all of that. Got it. I have to ask her how much I make a year because I don't look at my pay stubs.

4:50She set up a 401k for me just last week or two weeks ago because whatever we need to do to make her feel secure and comfortable and financially ready for the future, I'm bored for.

5:05Ramit Sethi: Okay. How long have you been married for? It'll be 20 years in January. Ooh, congratulations. Thank you. That's cool. That's a big one. 20 years. Children? We've got three of them. 16, 12, almost 13, and six. Okay, excellent. Outstanding. Let's say that we have a really good conversation today. 10 out of 10. That's what I always plan on. What does each of you walk out of here with? Jeff, you first. For me, it's more insight, more knowledge of what's going on, our ins and outs. And she's been trying to elute me in more in the last month or two as she's getting into our finances. She's learning more about taking charge of our money.

5:50Ramit Sethi: But I'm surprised to see you say you want insight on this call, but I think you also mentioned you're happy to just hand her the money. 100%. For me, ignorance and financial is bliss. It's selfish, yes, and not fair for me to put it on her shoulders. It's not fair to let her carry all the financial burden and have to make all the decisions and have to be the one saying, no, we can't do this. No, we can't do that. And I have to make her feel like the bad guy. It's easier for me to focus on the kids in the house and everything else in between than it is to focus on the parents. Do you really want insight today?

6:30I mean... I do. I think we both need to be on the same page. so I'm not just you know thinking okay she's just being overactive or it's just you know being paranoid

6:42Ramit Sethi: so you want to take on some of that burden yeah I'm a project manager I do risk assessment but if I don't know what's going on if I don't have all the information I can't plan Jeff this is not about information I want to set that right away it's not about information it's not about tools no I agree it's just again it was easier just to look the other way. Yes. Great. That's honest. So Michelle, what about you? 10 out of 10. What would you walk out of here with? Confident direction of what steps I need to take and what steps I can take to make sure that we are eventually in the best financial shape possible.

7:24I want to make sure that my kids don't end up in the same situation I was when my parents died, which was not being able to pay for their cremations because they didn't have any savings or insurance or anything.

7:40Ramit Sethi: I'm sorry, this is interesting because this doesn't usually happen. When I ask people like, what do you want to get out of this? Most people say, I want a plan or something like that, which is fine. I love hearing what you both want. But Michelle, are you telling me that what you want to get out of today is making sure that your kids can pay for your cremation? I mean, that's kind of what prompted all of this. We'll get to that. But that's what you want to walk out of. How much does a cremation cost? If you don't get a specialized urn, it's about$2 ,500. That's the dream? $2 ,500 for your kids?

8:17Ramit Sethi: I like hearing what you want. Sometimes I'm going to push on it a little. Because I don't think your life is about being cremated for$2 ,500. That actually is really depressing. Yeah. We got to dream bigger than that, right? The language in your application really stands out to me. We're living paycheck to paycheck. We've been doing it the same way for 20 years. Tell me more about that. What does that feel like to you? It's stressful. It's scary. I don't like not knowing what we would do or trying to figure out, okay, how are we going to get the kids to school? or how are we going to get my daughter up to her doctor's appointments?

8:59We don't have anybody to help us with it and we would be pretty out of luck.

9:04Ramit Sethi: Do you ever feel that way about like savings or retirement? If I think about it, yes. But you don't? Not the way that I should now. And Jeff, what is your role when it comes to money in this relationship? As I said at the beginning, I give her my paycheck and that's all I think about it. She's been taking my money over for 20 years now. Does it work? Because this is a common, this is actually quite a common dynamic. It works for me, not much for her. That's an honest answer. Hey, there you go. My lights are still on. There's gas in the car. And we finally established ground rules of I'm not allowed to spend anything over$20 without her permission.

9:48Okay. Which I agree to because I'm an impulse buyer. but it works for you.

9:53Ramit Sethi: Okay. And Michelle, does it work for you? No, it can be overwhelming. And I don't really feel like I know what I'm doing. I feel like I'm just piecing things together so we can get to the next paycheck to make sure we can get to the month. Why do you do it? If somebody has to, and we have the kids. I'm not making the connection. Somebody has to, why is it you? Because honestly, I don't trust Jeff to handle the money. I've seen his splurging and I don't feel like he has the confidence or the follow through to be able to handle it and trust that something isn't going to get turned off or something isn't going to happen.

10:33Ramit Sethi: So you do the best you can. And then what? I'm looking at which of those we could skip this month, which ones we could do a partial pay on, looking for solutions because I feel like sometimes we're drowning. What solutions have you looked for, engaged with? We've done credit cards, personal loans. Wait, wait, wait. Credit cards is a solution? It's a temporary solution. Oh, okay. Okay, go on. Made it so I could pay the bill. We did get a personal loan at one point to pay off the credit cards, but did not follow through with that the right way and ended up with that debt plus the credit cards. What else?

11:12We have looked at bankruptcy. Okay.

11:15Ramit Sethi: Okay. What would somebody else do in terms of a solution if they don't know how to manage their money? They would look at learning how to and figuring out a way to manage it with what they have. Yes. Have you done that? I'm starting to, but I'm very new to it. You've been married almost 20 years. Can we just cut to the chase? I'm not interested in what you've done in the last one month. People always clean their house before the house cleaner comes. I'm not interested in that. Have you looked into books and courses and videos and learned about how money works? I didn't look into courses and videos because to me, it always felt like they were geared either towards people that already had money or it was eat beans and never leave your house until you're completely debt free.

12:03Okay. And that didn't seem sustainable either. That wasn't the way that I wanted to live my life or wanted us to have to live our lives.

12:11Ramit Sethi: Jeff, you want to add anything to what you just heard there? No, I'll be honest. Until she mentioned she's been watching this, I mean, I knew we had problems. But again, it's the ostrich in the sand. If I don't watch anything she watches, I'm in my own little world. Are you in your own world about money as well? 100%. I just don't look at it. If I don't ask about it, then I don't have anxiety about it. in my world, it was better for me not to know. And then to cause myself anxiety and worry and stress. Meanwhile, it's not just the ostrich in the sand. The ostrich in the sand is being fed. Cable is being provided.

12:55Ramit Sethi: Lights are being provided for the ostrich. The ostrich is living quite a good life. They're chilling. Yeah, I'll be the first one to acknowledge that I've saddled the burden of our finances. Will you be the first to make a change? I'm trying. Michelle is teaching me. I didn't get a yes or no answer to my question. You will? Yes. It's pretty easy to tell that I am frustrated in this conversation. You know, here we have the parent-child dynamic again, which is inherently frustrating talking about two adults. But it's especially such a tired old trope to have the guy be the one who's just like, I don't know.

13:33Ramit Sethi: What should I do? You're better at money. I'm kind of just tired of it. I hope I'm not too forward in saying this, but get up, guys. Stop sitting around and waiting for somebody else to come and save you. No one is coming to do it. So apologies if I come off a little too strong, but this is what's going on with me inside right now. Think about what a perfect day in your retirement would look like. How old are you? Where are you? Who are you with? I think retirement planning is about more than just the numbers on some spreadsheet. If you want help making your retirement actually feel like a rich life, consider working with our partners at Facet.

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16:45Ramit Sethi: Let them know we sent you in the survey after checkout. Lisa.com, promo code RAMIT. Jeff, when's the last time you and Michelle had tension around money? The thing is, is I just, I walk away from it. So I don't let the tension. I just, I think I just tend to be an agreement person. Okay. I feel like you're doing that right now to me. Jeff, do you bring up money conversations? Only when I don't get what I want. Give me an example. The last biggest thing I asked for was a smoker. Okay. Realistically, I knew we're never going to use it, but I wanted to have it. When was this? Before Father's Day, I think, Michelle, wasn't it?

17:30A few months ago.

17:31Ramit Sethi: And what did you say to Michelle? Where were you and what did you say to her? Now I remember. We were at Costco. Actually, can we just recreate this? Say what you actually said back then. Go ahead, Jeff. Look at the smoker. it'd be nice to you know put a turkey or or the bacon or the cheese yeah i don't really like smoked foods and we already had one and you barely used it this is newer but it has pellets you know we would use it more you can also you know it's not just a smoker it's also a grill well we don't have the space for it and i really don't think we need it but we get rid of your barbecue and we can put the new one there.

18:15I like my barbecue. My barbecue works absolutely fine. We just need to clean it before the summer hits. This one'd be easier upkeep because it's pellets and not gas. No, I remember pellets being more expensive. And that was one of the reasons we didn't use the last smoker you had.

18:30Ramit Sethi: Okay. Okay. Time out. Pause. Great job. That was very authentic. Did you reach a resolution on that conversation? No, I didn't get it. It's in the long run. I know it's not practical. Why'd you ask then? Because it's shiny. Is this serious? Like, are you, are you being serious right now? Oh, I'm serious. Yeah. No, it's, it was shiny. It was something new. It was something that I wanted, you know, I've seen it before and I'm competing with my father and, you know, because he had one, I wanted one and. Whoa. Michelle, what was that reaction from you? That was agreement because that's a lot of what it comes down to.

19:06His dad gets a smoker and suddenly he wants a smoker. His dad gets a black stone and talks about how great that is. And Jeff wants to get a black stone. Wow.

19:17Ramit Sethi: That little example there shined so much light on the dynamic here. Can I ask you both, what role was each of you playing? Jeff, what role were you playing? I was more of the dreamer. She is more of the realistic. She's the one that keeps me grounded of saying, it's kind of dumb. You know you're not going to use it. You use the last one maybe once. Okay. Dreamer. And when you say she keeps you grounded, if she wasn't there, what would you do? I would have bought it. I would have spent the money and dealt with the consequences later. And that's what I've always done. Okay. And Michelle, what role were you playing?

19:58I was being the authoritarian. I was trying to put rules down and control things. Hmm.

20:07Ramit Sethi: I agree with everything you both just said. And I see Jeff as pushing the limits, even kind of knowing. You kind of said it with a smile, Jeff. I knew I really shouldn't get it. I knew it's not practical, but like, let me try to get it anyway. Pushing the limits. And Michelle, whether involuntarily or voluntarily, takes on the role of? The parent. The parent. And the parent has to do what, Michelle? I have to say no. You have to say no. You have to give a list of reasons. And I noticed that you both engage in this thing. Jeff says, what about this? Then you have to explain why not. Well, what about this?

20:48Ramit Sethi: No. Well, I don't know. Well, what about this? The pellets are actually more expensive. And then does anyone walk out of there feeling good? Well, I'll just ask you, did you walk out of there feeling good? Eventually, but I was initially frustrated that it was a conversation again. And it felt like I was having to defend the no. Yeah. I don't know what I was expecting. uh when i asked no you know i knew the outcome eventually was going to be no but you know it's i don't know why i did it you know why think about it why did you ask you know why there's a 50 50 chance that she would say yes exactly and that's how we got into 95 percent of where we're at is because i'm an impulse and there's sometimes she just doesn't want to deal with it.

21:34And then I'm dealt with the consequences. Who's dealt with the consequences? Well, both of us. Well, mostly her because then she has to figure out, okay, that$500, where is that going to be pulled from?

21:46Ramit Sethi: Michelle, what are you noticing as you hear this from Jeff? It's kind of frustrating because he knows what he's doing and still does it, even though it puts more pressure on me and makes things more difficult for me. Yes. And I feel like he's doing it intentionally, which doesn't feel cool. It doesn't feel cool, Jeff. That's why I didn't really buy you saying, I don't know why I do it. You know why you do it. Just like anybody knows why they walk into a casino and they gamble because once every 20 times they win a little bit of money and it's a little bit of fun. It's actually fun. I could kind of see the glee on your face when you talked about the smoker and the pellets and the this and the that.

22:22Ramit Sethi: It's fun for you to talk about, but it's not fun for Michelle because she's thrust into this role of being the, as she put it, the authoritarian or the naysayer, the no, that's kind of just sucks. No, it's not right for me to put her in that spot either. How long you've been doing this for? I mean, the last biggest thing was when I convinced her to buy a timeshare when we were in Vegas on vacation. It's been going on a while. Yeah. This dynamic, I would say probably since around 2010, 2011. I mean, back in 2010, it was just me and her. We were back then, we were paycheck to paycheck, but we were making it work.

23:01Ramit Sethi: Looking back, I'm always curious about this. Do you see any clues with each other early in on your relationship, financially speaking, with where you are now? Oh, yeah. We have a bigger paycheck, but it's almost a mirror image of where we were 20 years ago. Still feeling like we're not making enough, still doing the silly splurges, just with a little more responsibility now because we have the kids. Yeah. When we met each other, I was going through a divorce and I had disposable income. I didn't care. I was living in an RV on my parents' property and yeah, I didn't have any any other expenses except for the rent that I was paying them to live in the RV.

23:45And yeah, I don't look at long-term finances. I look, you know, the here and now.

23:50Ramit Sethi: Do you look at long-term for anything? I mean, I do have life insurance. Just in general, are you a long-term person or no? I used to be. But as I got older and more cynical, I stopped. What caused you to become more short-term thinking? Just the way our world is. And, you know, you see every day it's, you know, Or you could go out of Walmart grocery shopping and somebody else is having a worse day than you and decides to go on a rampage. You could be watching a movie. Were you ever long-term thinking about money? Yeah, with my first wife, yes. Okay. Michelle, are you a long-term thinker or no?

24:27I think it depends. I want to be a long-term thinker, but I don't always have the patience for it.

24:34Ramit Sethi: But oddly enough, you talk about your impending cremation decades from now. I don't mind it. I'm learning a lot already. This is very helpful. I wasn't caring, but then we had our first kid and I recognized that we needed to be more careful in some areas and needed to start saying no to things. And just - Who needed to say no? I needed to say no to Jeff when he would want to do things or get things that didn't make sense. And thus the pattern was born 15 plus years ago. first kid was born who was the person who made the decision to change the dynamic around money michelle in the sense that i need to now take on the burden and say no so i'm going to create this almost force field i will absorb all of jeff's inquiries can we get this can we get that what about this let's buy a timeshare and i'll take on the burden myself and once in a while i'll crack or as jeff puts it 50 of the time i'll crack which will lead us into more financial trouble but I am the one who's going to have to say no to Jeff.

25:40I think in the last six months, I'm understanding that we're not in a good spot. I've not been trying to play the games of let's buy this, buy that.

25:50Ramit Sethi: What? When was the Costco thing? Father's Day. June. Two months ago. I'm trying to be better as she's explaining more and more and opening up more and more. How long is it going to take? I don't know. I don't know. kind of pig-headed. I know the ramifications if I don't learn and if I don't ask, what are they? We're going to be like my parents, living in a place that they can't afford to move out of when the floors are falling apart and the wiring is going and the mold is spreading and there's nothing else they can do because they're on social security and they're too far in debt. I'm being pretty relentless with Jeff.

26:31Ramit Sethi: I'm asking him a lot of questions with increasing intensity and specificity. It's not an accident. I'm doing this on purpose. Jeff lives in a world where he says a lot of words that are up in the clouds and Michelle simply accepts them. You see this in couples where they've been together for a long time, so they don't really interrogate what each other means, but I don't accept that. And I have the latitude to ask him questions to make him own what he's actually saying. I think he probably has never actually heard himself say what he actually means. He's been living in the clouds and I'm here to bring him down to the street.

27:06Ramit Sethi: What was it like doing the conscious spending plan together? We didn't. She tried to show me the numbers, but my ADHD had me thinking about other stuff. Are you diagnosed? No, but we know I have it because ignorance is bliss. I know that I have problems. It's definitely there. My son has it. Yeah. Is he diagnosed? Oh yeah. 100%. Yeah. I definitely see the patterns of him in me. Why have you not gotten diagnosed? I don't like doctors. I don't like going to doctors. It's Michelle tells me to do it all the time. It's just, I think again, goes back to, you know, I don't want the reality or the medications or it's easier me to blame it on that than anything else.

28:01Ramit Sethi: When you suspected your son had ADHD, did you seek out help? For my son, yes. Right away. Right away? Yes. When he was in elementary school. But not for you, even though it affects your wife. For me, it's being selfish. You're okay being selfish? It's rare that I hear someone admit that. You've now mentioned it twice. It's me. It's how it comes down to that. It's my health. Look at your wife. You told me that she's the one worried at the grocery store about going up to the counter and the card doesn't charge. It goes beyond that. Again, if nobody communicates about where we are with the money, where we send, it's hard for me to focus on, okay, this is the issues.

28:51Okay.

28:52Ramit Sethi: I want to ask you both how you'd like to proceed here today because you both came on money for couples. This is not money for one person in a couple. It's money for couples. I have a very strong philosophy. The only way that you two of you will succeed is if the two of you are a team. And right now, this is the opposite of teamwork. I've been trying to be more engaging because I know this is important. You know, we're 45 years, 46 years old. Jeff, I don't think trying harder is really going to change much. For me, trying harder is better than not trying at all. The last couple of days, last week or two, I've been showing commitment to move outside of my comfort zone.

29:39I'm going back to school. I got super out of my comfort zone and started applying for new places. And it took a lot because I don't like uncertainty and I don't like new things. And anything going forward is trying rather than just sitting back and letting Michelle shoulder the burden. I mean, for me, putting in an effort is trying rather than not. And part of that might be you admitting that or at least trying to go to the doctor. I think part of your fear is going to the doctor and them saying, oh, there's nothing wrong. It's just your personality. And I say that as somebody with mental health issues that didn't go to the doctor for a very long time for them because I was afraid they were going to tell me it was all in my head.

30:28I know. Again, going back to that fear of the unknown. If, you know, is it my personality, then how can I fix the personality?

30:36Ramit Sethi: Well, there's lots of ways to do that too. No, I agree. Amy, I know it's, again, I'm conscious of me being selfish. I don't agree with it. It's my personality. It's easier for me just to laugh it off, push it aside and just to move on to the next thing. Yes, I know it hurts Michelle, but at the same time, I don't know how to get out of the cycle. What do you mean? She's telling you a very clear next step to get out of the cycle. Are you hearing her? I am hearing her. What is she saying? Put it plainly in English for me. That at the end of this call, I should speak to my doctor. Yes. And what is your response to that?

31:18That we will talk about it.

31:19Ramit Sethi: I'm struggling a bit right now. I want to help. I'm here. I'm prepared. I'm ready. This would be one thing if the two of you had$2 ,000 of credit card debt. We could be flexible. We could work through it. The status of your financial situation is much different. You are in your 40s. You have three children. Now, is there a way to fix it? I think so. But I cannot fix it. I cannot even help you fix it unless both of you are 100 % in and committed. I'm not hearing that right now. I'm hearing we should think about it. We should talk about it. I've started trying in the last two weeks. The only way out of this is full commitment from both of you.

32:03Ramit Sethi: So here's what I would like to propose. I would like for the next five minutes for you two to go off camera. And I would like for you to talk. What do you want? because if the answer is, hey, we're not both ready to fully commit, just come back here, tell me, and we will part ways, no hard feelings at all. But if you want my help, if you want to have a future that is bigger than a cremation, there has to be full commitment. So I want to give you the next five minutes, talk, come back, and let's discuss whatever decision you reach, I will respect it. See you back in a few. I almost ended the call right here.

32:49Ramit Sethi: And I never do that. I want to help. I believe that I can help most people if they are willing to be helped. My show is called Money for Couples. It's not money for individuals. And if I'm going to do what I do, I need both parties to want to be here. So I sent them away. I'm not sure how this is going to go. I think for the first time on this podcast, they may leave and not come back. We'll find out. Final few months of the year, I recommend using it to tie up loose ends and start the new year off right. Book your doctor's appointments, check in with your accountant, and if you have children, I recommend getting sorted out with term life insurance from Fabric by Gerber Life so you are covered in case something happens.

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34:11Ramit Sethi: Policies issued by Western Southern Life Assurance Company, Cincinnati, Ohio, which operates in DC and all states except New York, distributed by Gerber Life Agency, LLC, using fabric technologies. See meetfabric.com for additional disclosures. This is a paid ad. One of my favorite things on this podcast is watching my guests have an aha moment about their money dynamics. Because these money problems are not just numbers they put on their conscious spending plan. You can build the perfect CSP, but if you don't understand why you behave the way you do, the numbers are just going to keep repeating themselves.

34:44Ramit Sethi: That's what growing feels like. It's a mindset shift. It's a different way of looking at the same problem. And therapy can help you do that in every part of your life. Grow therapy can help you find the right licensed therapist for you. Grow is therapy that works covered by insurance. Grow connects you to thousands of high-quality licensed therapists across the U.S. that work with your schedule. Virtual, in-person sessions, nights, weekends, they have an option that will work for you. You can search by what matters, by identity, specialty, availability, insurance coverage. You can find a therapist who's the right fit for you.

35:20Ramit Sethi: Grow makes it easy to book an appointment in minutes and begin sessions in as little as two days. See if you could pay as little as$0 for therapy in seconds at growtherapy.com slash Ramit. That's growtherapy.com slash Ramit. growtherapy.com slash Ramit. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. I waited. Five minutes came and went. Seven minutes came. It was like the Apollo 13 movie. The time has come and gone. And suddenly, the flickering came back. And to me, that's actually a beautiful moment. You have to really want help to come on Money for Couples. It's not easy. It is not.

36:03Ramit Sethi: It is hard. It's hard to talk about your relationship publicly. It's hard to share numbers that are often embarrassing or shameful. Maybe to even admit that you or your behavior or even your character may need some development. That is incredibly difficult. So I give them props for coming back. I really appreciate, I appreciate every guest that does. How was your conversation? I think we're on the same page. I mean, it's realigning. We took a second to realign expectations and both expressed what we wanted out of this that I need to take that step of going to the doctor and seeing if it's in my head or if it's just my personality.

36:48But I have to make that conscious step of being supportive and not just looking at myself and what's right for me. But I'm willing to change. I'm willing to learn.

37:00Ramit Sethi: And Michelle, what about you? What'd you talk about? I mean, straight up, I asked him or let him know that this needs to be something that he wants to do because he wants to do it, not just because I want him to do it. I also accepted that I need to be willing to share the control and talk about it and not just model it up. Great. This is about creating an action plan, not a, I hope this happens in the future plan. I love that. So just so I'm clear, are you agreeing you're going to go talk to a doctor about ADHD and whatever else may be on your mind and see what they say? Yeah, I've already committed to Michelle.

37:44Ramit Sethi: I think that's awesome. It's going to make a profound change in your life. ADHD and money is a studied phenomenon. This is very well studied. We had an ADHD expert on money from the Financial Therapist Association, Dr. Christine Hargrove, in our Rich Life program. We're going to put a link for people if they'd like to join the program and they can access that. We have a whole community in the program where many people share openly about what it's like to have ADHD, how it relates to their money. This is an important topic, one that we talk about. That's number one. I want you to get diagnosed if appropriate or at least talk to your doctor.

38:22Ramit Sethi: That's a massive change. I actually want to just take a second and give you both a round of applause. I actually think this could be a different trajectory for the two of you for the rest of your lives and for your children. Fantastic. This is big. shall we continue on knowing Jeff has work to do? He's going to see a doctor. He's going to pursue that of his own accord, not because Michelle wants it. Michelle has already committed to being willing to give up some control. And so we know those things are going to require a lot of work, a lot of time and compassion from each other. But let's just assume that those happen very well.

39:02Ramit Sethi: Let's keep moving. I would like to put this conscious spending plan up on screen. and I would like to go through it. Okay, assets,$26 ,800. Investments,$264. Savings,$571. Debt,$186 ,000. For a total net worth of negative$159 ,170. Okay, what is the debt? Both of our student loans, I want to say we're around 65. Okay. The car. Mm-hmm. And then the credit cards and the loans. How much are the credit cards? The credit cards are at$18 ,400, and the loan is currently at$17 ,500. What do you make of these numbers? They suck. Yeah, what else? From my perspective, it doesn't look like there's a way out of it.

39:54One thing I did want to add that I didn't get to, when we took out the personal loan, what spurred it on was we were going to have a judgment against us from creditors. and we were facing garnishment.

40:06Ramit Sethi: Yeah. And we needed the loan to pay that off. There was still student loans at that point too, but we were focused on not getting garnished. Why? It was 25 % of my take-home pay. That would have killed us. We wouldn't have made them pay rent. What'd you end up doing? Took the loan out? Took the loan out. Did it help or hurt? It ended up hurting because we didn't do it the right way. Exactly. Okay, income. We have$14 ,887 a month in gross income. That's$178 ,000. That's a lot. Yeah. Doesn't feel like it. You take home$10 ,600 a month. That's pretty good. Again, keeping in mind, you have three kids.

40:51Ramit Sethi: So we need to put this in context. $178 ,000. You're essentially contributing nothing to your 401k. We just started the 401ks. I was nervous about losing money in the paycheck. So I started off at, I think, 1%. Your fixed costs are 87%. Well, right there is why you feel stressed out about money, Michelle. That plus Jeff ignoring it. 87 % means you can't get ahead and it effectively means you are spending more than you make every single month. Are you aware of that? Yes. Yeah. All right. Let's take a look. Your rent or mortgage is, am I reading this right? $1 ,695? It is rent. We are extraordinarily lucky.

41:30I have an amazing landlord.

41:31Ramit Sethi: Amazing. 11.39%. Never leave. Where's all the rest of the money going? 87%. Utilities,$6.68. Fine. Car payment,$1 ,000. Is this for one or two cars? One. What'd you get? It is a Nissan Pathfinder. Why? And how much did it cost? Because we needed the seating for five people. The winters here can be harsh and you do need to be able to get up your hills. Otherwise, they're going to be walking half a mile in the snow. How much did the car cost? Um,$76 ,000. $76 ,000? Who decided on that one? That was me. We got the little flyer, hey, we can get you in a better car and all this. And we just went in there with the understanding that we would not pay more than when we were paying when we lacked.

42:24I decided in the long run that it would be better for us to have a newer car with a better warranty that had less miles that we could maintain. Jeff, looking back, was that a good decision? No, it was not. Because I think our payments went up. It was like$300 extra a month. He was very convincing at the time. And the idea of having a more reliable vehicle did seem like a smart move. You grew up poor? Yes. Well, technically, yes.

43:01Ramit Sethi: That is a luxury vehicle. I will also add that part of it, I think, was also the fact, oh, you're going to approve us for financing on a nicer car. That's a classic. That's exactly who they target. First of all, you should not be responding to things coming in the mail. Any mail you get is, by definition, a bad deal. They're literally buying high-risk addresses and sending out and giving you the worst deal. And you bought it. Again, I'm not saying this to berate you or beat you down. I'm actually trying to show you the game being played around you and you were susceptible to it, but you also willingly participated in it.

43:42Ramit Sethi: So this is accountability is learning, hey, we did this decision. We, Jeff was convinced by the, we need this and that. And he says, looking back is a bad decision. Agreed. Michelle, we need a more reliable car. And now here you are with a$1 ,000 payment. That's crazy. All right, let's move on. Debt management plan, that's$486. What is that? It's a nonprofit. They helped us work with our credit cards to get them shut down, get the interest rates lowered on most of them. And we pay that, they pay them. There is no additional fee that they add onto it or anything. Cool. What's the other debt? Loans that were not rolled into the debt management plan because that was just credit cards.

44:28So that's the personal loan. We have a loan for furniture that we're finished almost paid off on.

44:35Ramit Sethi: You took a loan for furniture? Yes, because we couldn't afford to pay. How much was the furniture? I want to say it was$3 ,000. What'd you get for$3 ,000? We got a new couch. We got a new web seat. I will also 100 % say part of this was Emotionally coping with my mom passing And us having to take over The upstairs of the house that had been hers And wanting it to be ours I'm sorry to hear that I want you both to get out of this cycle where it feels like There's always something coming up That's what it feels like, right? Yes I mean, we're not even halfway down the fixed costs. And there's just something that comes up.

45:23Ramit Sethi: There's a car. There's a credit card. There's a sofa. There's on and on and on. How long has it felt like that? Always. Like the car did not need to happen. Not that car. And there are a variety of other decisions I'm sure we will discover that did not need to happen. So the real path forward is for the two of you to do some heavy, sustained work on what are we getting out of being in this really reactive place? Both of us. Can I just check in before we get into the numbers? How's everybody feeling right now? Michelle? I'm okay. You look a bit like there's something going through your head and I just want to check in with you.

46:05Ramit Sethi: And I want to make sure that we're not, nobody feels like, hey, you know, this is just like hopeless. That's never my intention. Michelle, how are you feeling? Yeah, no, I definitely don't feel hopeless. I think it's just emotional conversations. Yeah, they're hard. Yeah, and I can be overly emotional. There's a lot of work to unpack there. Let's keep going. We have medical 200, groceries and household good$2 ,000 a month. What's that? I have been struggling to get that down. That was our average over the last several months when I was looking at our purchases. Okay. We'll look at that in detail.

46:43Ramit Sethi: Clothes, 100. Pets, 300. How many pets? We've got three dogs and then we also have three cats. Oh my God. Yes. We have five cats and three dogs. You have eight pets? Yes. Okay. All right. One of them we got from her parents after they passed away. So we can't really just tell him to go find someplace else to live. How much of this stuff that we're seeing on the CSP is like emotionally driven? The debt, most definitely. The car was emotional? Yes. The car, I mean, we went from having 26 % interest on a car loan. And they're like, oh, we'll give you this loan for 10%. And it was kind of a reward for us.

47:36in my mind, it was a war for us getting back on track. Jeff, that's emotional. I think it's 90 % of my spending was emotional and self-convincing. Yes. Do I really need it? Thank you. I'm able to then put Michelle into my way of thinking.

47:58Ramit Sethi: Let's just continue going down the list here. We have eight pets for$300 a month. Phone,$446 a month. what? I'm working on that one. Subscriptions at$192 a month and miscellaneous at$500 a month. 87 % you're broke. Yeah. Just looking at it, what do you see here? Spending too much. Okay. Jeff? Yeah, we're spending more than we make. Okay. Your investments are at zero. Your savings are at $150 a month. And that started recently because your total savings are$571. Yes. And finally, your guilt-free spending or what remains is$1 ,252. I'm certain it's higher than that. Would you agree? It has to be with the way we feel every month.

48:44Ramit Sethi: What does the CSP tell you? Besides your spending too much, what kind of people are you based on these numbers? More impulsive. Yeah. We are short-sighted rather than long. Yes. More instant gratification. we were able to buy it mix you know that dopamine yes why do you think you do it it's just how i grew up i mean i didn't have what i wanted you know it's it's we were told no a lot what did your family say about money when you were growing up when you were young didn't talk about it when we had the government brown box cheese and we you know there was times we didn't have the quarter for lunch because my parents made, you know, a hundred dollars more than the poverty line.

49:32So instead of getting the free lunch, we had reduced lunch, but at times we couldn't have the breakfast or lunch because we didn't have the money to pay the school. But we didn't talk about that. You don't talk, you don't ask for help. You just do it. And consequences, you know, there was times where you get home, there was no electricity. There was no running water. You just dealt with it. What happened as you got older? I ended up starting to pay my parents to live where I was living with them. I've been paying my parents since I was 14. I would work my job, my money would go from me, from my aunts to my parents, and that was it.

50:07And that continued on.

50:09Ramit Sethi: How old were you when you stopped paying your parents? When me and Michelle moved in together after the tree fell into the motorhome. So 24. You basically have been paying somebody since you were a kid. Since when I was 14, yeah. It was a way for me to pass on the responsibility somewhere else. Yes. So I took it off my shoulders and put it on somebody else. Let's go back to your childhood. What do you remember about your dad? He was a drill sergeant. So it wasn't a good relationship. Didn't have a good relationship with my mom. My mom was that typical housewife of the 80s. and perpetuated a circle from her dad.

50:56Ramit Sethi: Can I ask a question? This is going to be a tough question. You don't have to answer, but I had to ask to understand something. Was your dad disappointed in you? Oh yeah, 100%. Okay. He would remind me of it all the time. Does he still do that? Oh, yeah. What do you see in the fact that you compare yourself to your dad? He gets a smoker, you want a smoker, et cetera. For me, I see that. I'm always strived to be better than him. I've always made it a point not to be like him, not to raise my children the way I was raised. I have Michelle, who's definitely a strong, opinionated woman, unlike what I grew up with.

51:36That's why I value about her, because she will call me out on my stupidness.

51:44Ramit Sethi: As opposed to your mom, who is the, quote, traditional 80s housewife. And because your dad was a drill sergeant who I'm assuming was very directive, told you all the things he needs from you and you're doing wrong, etc. You now, what? Hate being told what to do? Hate being told no? Look at Michelle's face. Yeah, I don't like being told no. But then I also understand the value of when Michelle says no. No. Not really. You hate being told no. We've seen that multiple times. No, we can't get the smoker. Come on, the pellets. No, we can't get the car. Well, come on, it's for the warranty. This seems to be a recurring trend.

52:25Ramit Sethi: Am I reading it wrong? No. So why are you disagreeing with me? It's my nature, I guess. Yes. This nature to disagree, to be contrarian, to provide the devil's advocate. Yeah, it was a game for me when with my father. exactly. Because no matter what you say, I'm saying something that is so obvious, it's transparent. It's axiomatic. And yet you're disagreeing with me. Why? Because you love it. You get pleasure in disagreeing because probably going back to your dad, there's all kinds of stuff that was developed there. But it's very hard to be a partner with someone who disagrees reflexively just because.

53:05Ramit Sethi: What are you realizing right now, if anything? There's more things I have to work on. Yes. And man, it's probably been really hard for Michelle. So I would love it if we can agree on some basic stuff and then move forward. What do you say? Yeah. That's what I'm here is to see where I can improve. Great. Michelle, you heard all of that. I want to give you a second and invite you to chime in. I think part of it also is because of Jeff tries to overcompensate because of the type of father figure he had. So he tries to overcompensate in some areas like helping around the house and taking on household chores that he never saw happen.

53:52um but on the flip side of that he does that argumentative comes up and i don't like conflict so i try to avoid it and i think that's a result a lot of times of me saying yes too is because i don't want the argument yes but i do think a lot of his choices his spending his habits are a result of growing up poor and not having and now being an adult with adult money and somewhere in the back of your mind, oh, I can do that because I have my adult money.

54:30Ramit Sethi: It's classic. Happens to so many people who grew up poor. They make a little bit of money. They go, I'm never going to go there again. I'm going to spend more, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. It's normal, but it can become destructive. What's interesting, Jeff, is hearing that you overcompensate, as Michelle puts it, but you overcompensate in some really adaptive, positive ways like helping around the house. That's actually awesome. Well, no. I mean, okay. Again, we'll go back to... Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me? I'm agreeing. He's over-explaining. Then why do you start your answer by saying no, no?

55:03Reflect it?

55:04Ramit Sethi: I don't know. It actually reflects your worldview that I need to disagree. You're saying no. The way you said it was even disagreeable. But you're actually agreeing with me. Just say you're right. And actually, I'm complimenting you. And so is your wife. Hey, this guy helps around the house. That's great. Jeff, take the compliment. Go ahead. Yes. That's it. Boy, this is fascinating. This is why I do what I do. Yeah, money's fine, but I love human nature. And when I give Jeff a compliment and his first reaction is to say, no, no, no, actually, I go, oh, my God. the light started going off in my head.

55:48Ramit Sethi: Even when I'm complimenting him, he's rejecting it. He's a contrarian and he doesn't even know he's doing it. There's a constellation of psychological social dynamics going on here. There's something actually called oppositional reflex. Let me read it to you. Opposition reflex is an innate physical and instinctual reaction where an animal or human automatically pushes or pulls against any applied physical pressure. I once got called out on this by a famous coach. He said, why do you say no when you answer questions? It shook me to my core. Because not only did I not realize I had this verbal tick, but if you dig in, you realize, oh, I'm disagreeing for no good reason.

56:36Ramit Sethi: Jeff has a lot of layers to pull on. It's one of the reasons that I really want him to see a doctor. Because we can only do so much in a few hours here, but there's actually a really beautiful life ahead as you start to understand yourself. One thing I've discovered on this podcast is that a lot of us are confused by our own behavior. Like, are you? Think about it. Do you not know why you spend money a certain way? Do you not know why you tell yourself, I should go to the gym, I should eat better, but you struggle to? you might actually be confused by your own behavior. And that's a really perplexing place for us to be.

57:12Ramit Sethi: That's why there's so much beauty in being able to understand yourself. That's why I love what I do. And I want you to see these different aspects of human nature and why I interject so often say, hey, here's what's really going on here. I think it's so beautiful to see how we are irrational and confusing and complex. That's what this is about. As for Jeff, I really want him to get a better understanding of himself, not only for his own life, but also for his wife. Jeff, I want you to see, I actually, I want you to feel a sense of delight because you just learned something about yourself. You are reflexively oppositional and it doesn't actually help you.

57:53Ramit Sethi: You disagree even when we are talking in a complimentary way about you. And it's actually not serving you. This would be topic number one or two that I would bring up with my therapist. And I would also bring it up with my doctor because you will be able to go so far. You cannot imagine how many opportunities have been around you, but you oppose them just normally, being a contrarian. But actually, if you can change your way of looking at the world, you might find that a lot of people are much more agreeable than you think. It's profound how deep you can go with this. So I hope you take that and run with it as you speak to some of your medical providers.

58:33Ramit Sethi: it's actually amazing what you're going to be able to do. Are you cool with that? Yeah. Okay. Michelle, what about how you grew up? What do you remember about your family? What did they say about money when you were young? Not a whole lot. I did hear, you know, no, you can't have that. That's too expensive. We were okay, but barely. I remember my parents having an argument and my dad leaving. My mom kicking him out, actually, until he got his back pay. I remember my mom not being able to open a checking account because she wrote too many bad checks I remember being taught don't answer the door if it looks like it's the electric person because they're here to shut us off In what ways do you Continue on the models that your parents set for you today?

59:23There was a lot of struggling with managing bills I Thought it was normal to not be able to pay all of your bills every month. Okay

59:32Ramit Sethi: What else? Obviously, we don't, haven't had conversations about money. It's not something that we really talk about. Talk to your kids about money? No, this has been a point of contention. We will tell them, no, we can't afford that. That's what your parents told you? Yes. Why do you continue the cycle? One, it's programmed, that's how it's supposed to be. You don't burden the kids with the problems of money other than to tell them, you know, no, we can't get that. And you today do not burden the kids with money, right?

1:00:04Ramit Sethi: No. That's quite interesting. You grew up poor, right? That's how you described it? Close to poor? Close. We weren't as poor as Jeff's family. We were never on state assistance, but we couldn't pay our bills. We got kicked out of houses for closures. Lower middle class, let's call it, maybe poor. Yeah. In what ways are you trying to break the cycle of money that you were taught? I have started pushing to, when our kids ask, you know, how much do things cost? Telling them, something that Jeff's very much against. He will often tell them, it doesn't matter, we got it for you. Being transparent with them on cost of things.

1:00:45Talking to our son about savings and things that I would like to help him do when he gets his first job. To get him into the habits that I didn't have when I had my first job.

1:00:56Ramit Sethi: What about actually modeling it? I'm trying to yes that's part again that's a piece of why I'm doing what I'm doing right now I want to be able to show him number one it's okay to ask for help yes number two it's okay if you don't know all the answers you can figure it out yes and number three here are the things you can do so that you don't fall into the same cycle that we were in great uh Jeff you yeah no Well, me, I have been more open with our son about it because he's that age. And I wish my parents would have sat me down and explained things better. But I think also me and Michelle also have better patterns than our parents.

1:01:44We're not going to kick out credit card in our kids' names or bank accounts in our kids' names. Who did that? Both of our parents.

1:01:53Ramit Sethi: What? I went away and there was a bank that sent checks to my house thinking I was there. My parents forged my name on these checks and sent them a credit card. And Michelle? My mother used credit cards. I think it was a Macy's or JCPenney credit card that I got. Maxed it out buying Christmas presents. um my dad unknowing my dad's kind of like was kind of like Jeff's in that he was not very good with money uh in a lot of ways hold on I'm so shocked I'm sure the parents are similar to what this is like it's like saying I drink water whoa really oh yeah but but recognizing that pattern is powerful.

1:02:47Ramit Sethi: It's great. Did you know that before today? I didn't make the connection on the financial side. I knew part of why I fell in love with Jeff was because he reminded me of my dad with his stupid jokes and wanting to make people laugh and everything. But I hadn't made the connection on the money side. Okay. But my dad unknowingly used my checking information to sign up for something online. I hate that. I hate that your parents did this to you. The people you should love and trust the most took advantage of you. I want you, if you will allow me, to trust that there is a way that you can actually feel good about money.

1:03:33Ramit Sethi: Do you believe that? Yes. Michelle says yes. Jeff? Yeah, no, definitely. I mean, there's, yeah, I do believe there's a way for us to feel better about money. I had no idea that both of their parents had taken out debt in their names. I actually wish I had known this earlier because it gives me so much more empathy. the feeling of being betrayed by the people closest to you and the way that that has to leak over into money, just make you feel horrible about money, hate money, be obsessed with money, want to ignore money. It's all bad. Now, that was not their fault, that debt was taken out, that their relationship with money was polluted from early on.

1:04:21Ramit Sethi: But it is their responsibility to fix it. They are adults. They have children. It's important and nobody else is coming to do it for them. So that is where we are. I'm glad to understand it. It provides a little bit more context and it's still their responsibility. I have a lot of friends who are entrepreneurs, a lot of friends who are not entrepreneurs. And one difference between the two is that the friends who run businesses basically have to be proactive at work all the time. They cannot wait for something to happen or a boss to tell them what to do. So you'll find that they're kind of constantly looking around corners, trying to figure out what's next so they can make plans.

1:05:00Ramit Sethi: And I have found that being proactive is a skill. If you want to be proactive with next year's taxes, I recommend checking out this episode's sponsor, Gelt. Gelt is a modern CPA firm that helps your business take control of your tax strategy year round. By working with Gelt, you get access to one dedicated tax strategist with real human expertise powered by cutting edge technology that handles the rest. They help with more than just your tax forms. They can make strategic adjustments to things like how you pay yourself, your retirement plan setup, even how you structure your business tax system.

1:05:33Ramit Sethi: And right now in Q4, they can help you run a calculated projection so you know exactly where you'll land this year while you still have time to make changes. Gelt is taking on new clients before the year is over. The smartest tax move you can make is not waiting until next year to get started. So start your year-end review at joingelt.com slash ramit. I'm opening up Michelle and Jeff's Monarch accounts so we can drill down into their actual spending over the past couple of months. Now, our partners at Monarch have customized their accounts to follow my exact conscious spending plan categories.

1:06:11Ramit Sethi: And you can download the CSP template for free at iwt.com slash CSP, or try out a customized Monarch account and see all of your numbers in real time. The two actually work together beautifully. This is available only for my listeners at monarch.com slash Ramit. And you can use code Ramit to try it for free and get 50 % off your first year of their core tier. All right. Can we look at some of the actual spending here? Yes. So I did a little digging using Monarch. We had you connect your accounts. And so this allows us to drill down a little bit deeper and see where some of the money is going. So let's take a look here.

1:06:52Ramit Sethi: We have Klarna. Why are you using Klarna? Yeah, we used it when our TV broke. And then a week later, when the child broke the new TV, we had to get a new TV because it wasn't covered. Can I ask you a question? One thing after another. You have a family with three kids. You're in severe debt. You have eight pets. And your TV breaks twice in like five days. Do you need a new TV? Wow, dead silence on this. It felt like we did. It felt like we needed a new TV. It felt like we needed a new car. It felt like we needed a new couch. It felt, it felt, it felt. What is my point? That it's reckless spending.

1:07:27Ramit Sethi: You don't have the money for it. I don't think either of you have ever said we simply don't have the money for it. It's always been we'll figure out how to get the money for it or how to make the purchase happen. Yeah, you're not figuring it out. You have done everything except say no. For me, the TV was a way for me to unwind after 12 hours a day. and it was a way for the kids. It's not about the TV. It's about the fact that we have a couple here, you in your 40s in severe debt and inability to say no. Like it didn't even occur to you that maybe we just say no to a TV. Yeah, I mean, it occurred for like 30 seconds and then we justified it to ourselves.

1:08:10Ramit Sethi: Yes, and you do that a lot. And that's what has led to this spending. So I'm not going to sit here and do some abracadabra with your conscious spending plan. It's actually you two that have to do the work here, not me. What needs to change? Our mindset, you know, just because we have the ability to put it on credit, you shouldn't put it on credit. Guys, nothing goes on credit anymore. Tear them up. It's over. Nothing goes on until you pay it off. That's it. That is part of why I did the debt management plan because it shut down all the credit cards. so we can't go back and fall back on them or use them impulsively.

1:08:50I've removed all of the Paylater apps so that we can get them paid off and be done with them.

1:08:56Ramit Sethi: Okay, let's take a look at some other expenses here. I actually love being able to dig into these through Monarch. Let's take a look here. Honestly, I kind of liked it too. Yeah, it's fun, right? It's quite revealing. And again, I like the CSP for being able to see the big picture. And then we can dig into, what the hell? Spring break, okay. That was spring break. Oh, just hold on. Not everyone can see this. Let me just describe it for a second. I'm looking at a monthly view of how much they spend eating out. And the chart is quite interesting. So I can see they're eating out. And November is$447.

1:09:36Ramit Sethi: Then December's$1 ,800,$1 ,500. $1 ,400, and then$2 ,747 in one month. We took the girls to Vegas for spring break. That was the spike in eating out because we were enjoying ourselves. And I was going to figure it out later. And have you figured it out? No. What would the correct decision have been? We would have done something locally. Yeah. I would have taken, still taken the time off and that's what our plan is for next year. Again, if you made$150 ,000,$175 ,000 and you had no debt and all your stuff was dialed in, I'd be like, God bless. This looks awesome. Looks like great food. It's fantastic.

1:10:26You don't.

1:10:27Ramit Sethi: You've put yourself in a position where you're in debt. You have very little savings. You have kids. If something happened, you all are in big trouble. I think that's why you came to me. Am I reading it right? Yes. Yes. So what are you learning so far on today's call right now looking at these numbers? That the little stuff adds up. Yeah. You just see that you're happy. Are you happy? I'm not looking at the numbers. I didn't know we spent that much money eating out last month. Okay. And Michelle, what are you learning on this call? That we need to be stricter with what we say yes and no to. Keep talking.

1:11:05Ramit Sethi: I want to hear more. For example, eating out, I need to stick to my guns of we're not going to eat out and we'll be eating at home. No matter how tired I am or what the week was like. Success requires hard work, but it often feels good. Being strict, sticking to my guns, that doesn't feel good. What does it feel like? It sucks. It feels like when I was a kid and my parents told me no. Exactly. And sometimes I just want to go out to dinner with my husband. Yes. And yet you are telling me that in what you need to do is to be stricter and stick to your guns. Look at the body language, right? Look at that deep breath you're taking.

1:11:46Ramit Sethi: Being strict and sticking to your guns sounds like you at Costco with your husband begging you to get a smoker. And you have to put up this wall and be like, no, no. It's almost like you're being attacked. Left punch, right punch. What if it felt easy? What would that look like? I would know that we have enough money to go out and have Jersey Mike's one Saturday a week when we're going grocery shopping. Jeff, what would it look like and feel like if money was easy in your family? Being able to plan more with the girls rather than, you know, canceling all of our plans. You should be able to have some fun.

1:12:19Ramit Sethi: No doubt about that. I want you to. But that cannot be the primary thing that you are focusing on now. Because nowhere in your descriptions did you talk about, we should automatically save money. We should know our debt payoff date. Our money should be going to our debt aggressively. This is how many times a week we can eat out and both of us respect it. It was just, I want to be able to spend more on stuff, which is the same thing that got you into this position in the first place. No, I agree. It's shifting that mindset. It's going to be hard, but it's not unattainable. The stakes here are very high.

1:12:53Ramit Sethi: If you're in your 20s and you accidentally don't pay a credit card bill one month and you rack up interest charges, it's not great, but you could fix it. You have time. When you get into your 40s, you need to be pretty dialed in. If they don't change this dynamic, they will be in severe debt. No housing options. It's quite ominous to look 15 years down and see where they might be. So my goal is to get them to break this habit and to build a vision together, which they're both bought in on. So I decided that I wanted to show them and to show you exactly what I would want. What would I do in their situation?

1:13:35Ramit Sethi: I'm taking a structured approach doing three things. Number one, philosophy. Number two, develop money rules. Number three, actually make some changes. And I'm going to do this fast. It would be super easy instead to just be like, okay, let's like fiddle around the edges and cut the amount down that you spend eating out. It's going to do nothing. I would rather elevate them. And I hope maybe they reach 50 % of it, 40%, 60%. But I want to show them what excellence looks like. That's what I'm going to do. This is what I would do if I were in your situation. A philosophy around money. That means something like, in our family, we save at least 10 % of our net pay.

1:14:16Ramit Sethi: That's an example of a philosophy around money. In our family, we have a no debt policy. That's another example. What is a philosophy with money that each of you want to begin starting immediately? That we are debt-free. We are a debt-free family. I like that. Are you willing to make changes in order to support that philosophy? Yes, I am. Great. Michelle, are you willing to make changes to support that philosophy? Yes. Great. What's your philosophy? In this family, we prioritize saving. Love it. And what does that mean? Give me a number, a percentage. Typically, I say 5 % to 10 % of net pay. Let's go in the middle with 7%.

1:14:597%. In this family, we save 7 % of net pay. Beautiful. Next. And this family, we communicate about money. I love that.

1:15:08Ramit Sethi: You agree with that, Michelle? Yes. Yes. That is powerful. We communicate. How often do we talk about money? Be specific. Once a week. Love it. Once a week. What day? What time? I share my own misery because I I had a um rich life review It was like at 6 p.m. on a weekday and like I kept on kicking the can down the road My wife actually told me like dude Let's be honest you're writing a book on money for couples and you've missed the last two meetings It was very embarrassing, but she was right And I realized I was missing him because I was tired at the end of the day and other meetings started encroaching So what I do I took a hard look in the mirror I looked at what was going on.

1:15:44Ramit Sethi: I realized this needs to be a priority. I moved it to a 9 a.m. slot. So I'm not saying it has to be at 9am, but I'm saying don't give yourself a way to, don't set yourself up to fail. I think we could commit to Sundays at 11 o 'clock or after breakfast. Sunday, 11am. Does that work for you, Jeff? Yeah, that works for me. I honestly think you have an amazing philosophy here. We are debt-free. We prioritize saving 7 % and we communicate about money once a week at Sunday at 11am. If you just did this, you could make radical changes with your money. I think you're doing amazing so far. That is a powerful philosophy.

1:16:21Ramit Sethi: Now, you can have a philosophy and not yet be there. That's okay. In this family, we are debt-free. Well, you're not debt-free right now, but you can take steps to get there. That's cool. Why am I starting with a philosophy and what the hell is a money philosophy? You know, a lot of us do not have a money philosophy and I can see it when I look at your spending because it's sloppy. It's spending money on pickles Oh, I bought some corn and then I bought eight dogs. What? Makes no sense. There's no cohesive philosophy. But when I see somebody spending where they are spending a ton of money on traveling or on their car or on their house, and they explain to me, here's why.

1:17:00Ramit Sethi: We love where we live. We have two kids. We wanna have a big space, a safe space. Amazing, you have a philosophy. What I want you to do is start off with your philosophy because it gives you a why. It makes it really easy to make decisions when if one partner or both say, hey, should we take this trip or should we buy this car, whatever, you look at your philosophy, you go, is that important to us? Because in the moment, you're gonna look at this shiny coat of paint. Oh, I love it, so cool. But actually look at your philosophy. I once went on a tour of the expensive neighborhoods in LA, okay? This is during COVID, there's nothing to do.

1:17:33Ramit Sethi: We drove to Bel Air, beautiful houses, 20 bed, 20 bath, you can only see through the shrubs. I'm looking at it like, ooh, I could live here, Bel Air, so nice, It's such a rich life. And then I got home and I was like, what the f***? My philosophy is I love walkability. So for that moment, I was like enchanted by how cool these trees looked. I come home, I don't really like that stuff. I don't want to live up there in the hills. No. Have a philosophy. Write it down. Next up, rules. What are your rules? The things that if you do these, they are going to make you successful. We always save 10 % and we increase that number every 1 % every December, etc., etc.

1:18:12Ramit Sethi: etc. Third and last, we go in and we fix the numbers. I think most people just skip right to the numbers. They do this all the time on this show. I go, hey, what's the problem? They go, well, we should cut down on our cell phone. Don't put your cell phone until you know why and what your rules are. Otherwise, you're just going to pick something that's going to save you $15 and then next month, you're going to go right back to it. You need to think methodically. If you're sitting around fiddling in a spreadsheet and you don't even know what the problem is, you have taken a very wrong turn. Join my Rich Life program.

1:18:40Ramit Sethi: I'm going to put the link, iwt.com slash 100k. Learn how to think like this or just watch this show and do it every single week. All right, back to the show. What kind of money rules can we create? We run the numbers before any purchase. Okay, great. We run the numbers. What's next? Don't try to manipulate, Michelle. That's a great one. I like that you're saying these out loud because you can actually print them out, put them on the fridge, make a little index card. And if something happens, one of you can pull it out. Hey, wait a minute. Are you violating rule number three? Ah, come on. We both agreed.

1:19:08Ramit Sethi: It becomes a fun thing. Money should be fun, even if it's tough times. Great. What else? Hey, how about eating out? Reduce it down to no more than twice a month. I was going to say once a month. With a limit of no more than$75. $75 per month eating out. That includes coffee. That includes pizza. That includes gas station stops. Whatever. All of the above. 75. So that's basically one meal. Yes. And from looking at where you order, it's Jersey Mike's or Domino's. type of place, right? Yeah. Are we on board with that? Yeah. Okay. Just to give you some perspective, do you know how much you spent on eating out this year?

1:19:49Ramit Sethi: It's August. Well, I mean, considering that in that one month was$900, I'm thinking we're close to six grand. Six grand. Let's take a look at Monarch. What's this number right here? $9 ,275. That was one heck of a burger. we're not even at the end of the year yet. In this family, we eat out once a month for$75. I think it's incredibly powerful. I think it's amazing, actually. I'm really pleased. I think that's awesome. I actually think it gives you a lot to look forward to every month. All right, final thing we're going to do here. We got some rules. We run the numbers before any purchase. We don't try to manipulate Michelle.

1:20:27Ramit Sethi: We limit eating out to$75 a month. All this feels good. We're going to now make some changes to the actual CSP. Jeff, it's up to you. I want you to get us below 60%. Our cell phone bill can come down. To what? I think it was like$200 off of that. What did it drop to? $85. Yeah. What's next? Subscriptions. Again, we've been working on that. And I mean, I think we can take$50 off of that. Watch the number. Went from 85 % to 85%. No change. Got to think bigger, Jeff. groceries. I think that's our next biggest expenditure. Yep. Michelle, if they're looking at it, how can we bring that down to 15? I think we can do 16.

1:21:12Ramit Sethi: How often do you all shop out, go for grocery shopping? Once a week. We do Costco once a month, but then we do once a week, we do Safeway, Winco and Walmart because we shop the ads and shop sale, shop clearance. Do you shop to a number, Michelle? Right now, no. Yeah, nobody does. We have been cutting back on what we used to spend. Look, let me just be blunt. $2 ,000 a month is just too much for a couple that's in debt. Can we aim for$1 ,500? Yes, drops to 80%. Okay, that's a big difference. What else? The miscellaneous uncategorized spending. Yes. $100. Great. We took it down to 76%. 100%. What was it?

1:21:58I don't see us spending$300 a month on the pets. I think we could drop that down to half. So 150. Make it 200. I also think having eight pets is something you should think about. Our pets are our kids. We can't get rid of our kids, so we can't get rid of our pets.

1:22:14Ramit Sethi: Boy, you're talking to the wrong guy about that. And that's fine. That is one of the ways. That's fine. We all have our own rich life. Fine. What else? I want to show you something. We need to not get stuck. We need to keep moving. Savings account. I just want to point out, you currently have$571 in savings. If one of you gets in an accident or there's some kind of repair that needs to happen, there is no place for the money to come from. You will simply rack up more debt and you'll just end up in the same place you've been for the last two decades. Therefore, we need to move money to savings.

1:22:49Ramit Sethi: So right now you have$150 going, which is good. let's add$750 because that was about 7%. $750 is just automatically going into your savings account, never to be touched, except in an emergency. That's great. You still have$1 ,752 for guilt-free spending. That's too much. Yeah. You know, we calculated some of your math. And by the time you retire, Michelle, on the current trajectory you're on, you'll have about $117 ,000 in retirement. What do you think about that? I know that's not enough. Yeah, that would give you about$4 ,700 a year. Yeah. I mean, you two would be living on Social Security. No house.

1:23:32Ramit Sethi: What do you think would happen? End up living with their kids. Yes. That is the track that you are on right now. That is the track. Nothing we have done has changed that. Jeff, it looks like you're having a moment of realization. Am I reading that right? Right. I'm just, yeah, it's weird. We're still in that we're overspending and under earning. Yes. When are you going to be debt free? Do you know? Like seven years for the credit card piece, at least. I didn't even put in student loans. Need to pay that off faster. Let me show you. You have$1 ,752. That's just not going to work anymore. We need to put an extra payment towards your debt.

1:24:09If it were me, an extra 500,

1:24:12Ramit Sethi: and I might put 500 in investments because you need to invest. You see how I'm starting to split this money? Yes. You'll actually feel incredibly empowered when you do this. And then the two of you can decide in your Sunday 11 a.m. meetings, hey, I think we have an extra 100 bucks. Where should we put it? I think it should go to investments. I think it should go to debt. Well, tell me a little bit about why you think that because I'll tell you a little bit about why I think that and then let's come to a decision. that's how healthy money conversations happen and i think we had that conversation too and that's what pushed she pushed me to look for a new job that makes more i've been in the same job for 13 years i would love that could you do that yeah um with my skills right now i was looking we were looking at the 130 000 comparative 90 i'm making now that would be game-changing and michelle is Yeah, Michelle is also looking at something that would double her kick home now.

1:25:13Ramit Sethi: If one of you does that, it will be transformational. If two of you do that and you follow a plan like this, it will be earth shattering for the trajectory of you and for your kids. Earth shattering. It is simply the biggest possible thing you could do second to following this plan. But if you do not follow this plan and you go and make an extra 50 or 100K, it doesn't matter because you'll just spend it all. The plan is what matters. The connection between the two of you is what makes it possible. I think we have a solid game plan and a solid list of rules that we can follow without feeling that it's taking the lay.

1:25:56Great. In order for this to work, I need to ask for help. I need to shrug off the eldest granddaughter or daughter persona and involve Jeff in the conversation and the planning. And it is, a path forward actually is possible. Totally. And it doesn't seem as insane or scary as I thought.

1:26:22Ramit Sethi: Yes. If you could go back in time and see Michelle in 2010, what would you tell her? I would tell her that she needs to get Jeff more involved. She needs to share the responsibility and make sure she's not the only one that knows what bills there are and what needs to be paid. So she's not the only one that's worrying about it at night. Nice. And what if that Michelle from 2010 said, yeah, but it's easier for me to do it because I don't trust Jeff. It's not going to be easier in 15 years, it's going to be more stressful. And it's better to build that habit now than go through 15 years of worrying about going up to the register and whether your card's going to clear.

1:27:11Ramit Sethi: That's honest. I really appreciate that. Do you think you would give yourself the same advice today? Yeah. I recognize that Jeff needs to be a part of it. It's hard to let go because I want to control. And I want to know that things are going to be okay. But I recognize that it needs to happen. Cool. I always believe that people can change. And I think there will be some change here with Michelle and Jeff. I think that Michelle hopefully feels validated that there are some real issues here. And I hope that she feels challenged and encouraged that she can learn more and develop her skill. I hope that Jeff follows through.

1:27:59Ramit Sethi: I really want him to speak to some medical professionals and see what, if anything, might be available to him. I think that once you have a relationship dynamic that has solidified, concretized, it's really, really challenging. So I'm wishing them the best. I know change is possible at all levels, all ages, all scenarios, it just becomes harder over time. I want to give a huge thank you to our partners at Monarch. You are now making it possible for us to take the CSP and for me to dive in to the transaction level. So many awesome insights here. Here, we find that this couple spent$9 ,000 this year eating out.

1:28:43Ramit Sethi: That's actually immensely shocking and useful to know. You can do the same thing using Monarch. Hey, Ramit. So first, I want to thank you and the entire team for the opportunity and for taking the time to work through all of this with us. It was extremely helpful, and honestly, it was a conversation we really needed to have. My biggest takeaway was that I need to learn to speak up more when it comes to finances, and it's okay for me to push Jeff to be more involved instead of feeling like I have to carry it all for myself. I also realized we're not our parents. We're not in the same financial situation they were in, and we don't have to carry the same beliefs or issues with money.

1:29:25We have the ability to save, invest, get out of debt, and build something different for our family. We're not trapped. We did end up making a few adjustments to the budget to make it more realistic, but we do have a concrete plan now. We are on track to have one of our debts paid off fully within the next three months and then have the goal of having our personal loan taken care of within the next 16. And then as things get paid off, we're going to roll that into other debts to get those paid off faster. We've also agreed that when and if our salaries increase, we're not going to let our lifestyles automatically increase with them.

1:29:59We want to put that extra money towards savings and investments instead. And I guess last thing, if there's anybody watching who thinks saving isn't for me or investing is only for rich people, I want you to know that it is for you. You don't have to make millions of dollars. You can start where you are with what you have and build from there, even if it's just$10. And I think that's probably the biggest thing I'm walking away with, feeling like we can actually do this. Thanks again. So right off the bat, one of the surprises was not knowing where our money was going, how I was being spent just because I was afraid I was I had anxiety over spending and just relied on Michelle to to do all the burden to you know to deal with the impact of my spending and a lot of times you know you know how she felt and putting her in a position of where she had to be the parent because of my impulse buying and lack of long-term thinking my biggest takeaway I need to change my behavior so we can change the way we approach money together having that conversation regardless if it makes me anxious or not learning more about financial planning and it also means communicating more openly about what we want for our future to look like specific changes as we discussed we you know started we scheduled that that you know the sunday's meetings to to set up goals.

1:31:25So look at our monthly plan. We looked it over and our short-term debt management, we were able to restructure and pay off a large loan within the next three months, and then take that and then put it towards one of the bigger bills, treating that money as if we never had it because it's going to pay our bills. I believe that's our biggest is just being able to sit down and talk to each other openly and having that conversation that we've been avoiding just because we're afraid. And the goal is, again, is to break that cycle. Talk to our kids about debt management, about not getting into debt, plan for your future.

1:32:06Again, we're not our parents. We want to be better. We want to show our kids what it means to be financially responsibly. Hey, Rameen team. You guys wanted to know what the biggest things that stuck with us since we talked about a month ago. And for me, it's that it's okay to speak up about everything. I don't have to quietly take responsibility of things and really shouldn't avoid the conversations just because I think they're going to be uncomfortable. For me, it was asking more questions, taking ownership of our finances, and knowing that we're a team. And not letting Michelle just take the burden of it all and expect that it's just going to be magic.

1:32:45I have also learned that sometimes you just have to pull the trigger. The plan's never going to be perfect the first time and that's okay. But spending forever trying to get the details right isn't the way to go. The only way to know if it's going to work is to try it. So this the way we did this this month was to take our paychecks and automatically move it to retirement savings and extra debt payments so we can get that down. This is happens before we even get to touch it. yep and we also have a new income stream that's going to be starting soon and we've already decided where that money is going uh we're also trying to use our bank accounts a little more intentionally we've got one for bills one for groceries and one for everything else we might have forgotten about and we know this is our first month i mean it's going to be trial and error but that's the nice thing it's we learn as we go and we can use it you know what didn't work this month we could try it out next month yep so you know what thank you again for the opportunity and the direction you gave us.

1:33:42It's really helped. And I think we both feel like there's big things ahead of us. Thank you guys.