'Atomic Habits' Author James Clear Helps You Own the New Year

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0:27Good morning, Brew Daily Show. I'm Neil Freiman. And I'm Toby Howell. Today, it's a new year, and you've probably set goals you'd like to achieve. To help you get there, we chatted with James Clear, the author of Atomic Habits, for practical advice on how to make and then hit your goals. It's Monday, January 1st, 2024. Let's ride.

0:51Happy New Year, everyone. We have officially turned the page on 2023. That romantic midnight kiss feels like a fever dream, and your pounding head reminds you why you never drink champagne. Sounds like a great opportunity to start setting some goals. The new year is such a popular time to make resolutions for the next 12 months. But you know what, Neil? In 2024, I want us to get smarter about them. No more vague read more books or get in shape. Let's learn how to make resolutions that are actually achievable and push us forward. And I can think of no better person to put us on the right path than James Clear, the author of Atomic Habits and a deep thinker about all things self-improvement.

1:28We talked to James about the right and wrong ways to set goals, how to actually get yourself to the gym, and whether my soccer coach's favorite way of motivating my team makes any sense at all. I think you'll get a lot out of the conversation. But first, it's a new year, so that means we have a new sponsor, Veeam. Veeam is a comprehensive data protection and ransomware recovery platform that is committed to helping every company become radically resilient. That means when things like ransomware attacks, natural disasters, or even plain old human error affect your company's data, Veeam is there to help protect and recover.

2:05The real question is, can Veeam help me remember to write 2024 when filling out the date on forms, or is that one on me? That one's on you, unfortunately. But if you want to learn more about Veeam, head to Veeam.com today. Does it ever feel like you're a marketing professional just speaking into the void? But with LinkedIn ads, you can know you're reaching the right decision makers, a network of 130 million of them, in fact. You can even target buyers by job title, industry, company, seniority, skills, and... Did I say job title? See how you can avoid the void and reach the right buyers with LinkedIn ads.

2:38Spend$250 on your first campaign and get a free$250 credit for the next one. Get started at linkedin.com slash campaign. Terms and conditions apply. And now, on to our interview with James Clear. here. James, thanks for joining us. James Feroldi, Hey, happy to do it. Thanks for having me. It is January 1st, and many people listening to this are probably thinking about their New Year's resolutions. But before they think too hard about them, do you believe this exercise is even worthwhile? Does it even make sense to set goals on New Year's at an annual cadence? James Feroldi, Yeah, it's totally fine.

3:13There actually is some research that shows that I think they call it like the fresh start effect, but basically beginning of the day, beginning of the week, beginning of the year, beginning of the month, anytime that you kind of have this feeling of rebirth or starting anew, there is a little bit of a rise in motivation. So it's a natural thing. I mean, we all do it because we're all kind of thinking about how can my next year be better than my last year? And what am I hoping to achieve and so on? So it's a very natural thing. I don't think there's anything wrong with using that momentum or using that motivation for you.

3:44There also isn't any reason to wait if you feel like making a change earlier in the year or at a different time. There's nothing special about waiting until January, but certainly momentum is a powerful thing. And if you feel like you have some now, then go ahead and take advantage of it. Speaking of kind of last year, last December you post this thought starter to your newsletter readers. It's one year from now, the habit you were hoping to build during the year didn't stick. What is the most likely reason it failed? Why is predicting the reason a habit failed in the future worth thinking about in the present now?

4:18Well, there are many examples of this kind of thing in business and in life. There's kind of like failure pre-mortem, as they call it. But basically, it's so unlikely that you will stick to a habit and just do it forever. Everyone is going to fall off course at some point. And there's going to be some interruption of life that weasels its way in. Maybe it's your kids get sick or you have to travel for work or you need to do something for your parents or whatever it is. But we all have things that come up. And when your habits fall off track, it's helpful to have a plan for how you how you're going to get back on track quickly.

4:51And I think actually, as I have studied more and more people who built habits and looked at people who are kind of top performers, so to speak, in their particular domain, these people are human just like everyone else. They make mistakes and they fall off course. but one pattern that they do tend to share is they get back on track quickly. And if the reclaiming of your habit is fast, the breaking of it doesn't matter that much. So you get to the end of the year and it's just a little blip on the radar where you slipped up two or three times. So for all of those reasons, it's very helpful. And of course, I think we all know that having some kind of consistency has power.

5:29And so if you can get back on track quickly, then you can often get the results you want without needing to be perfect. Is the process of getting back on track with your habits the same as starting out in the first place? Or is it kind of like riding a bike where you can pick it up a little easier? Yeah, that's a good question. You know, I think broadly we could break a habit into two different kind of core problems. The first problem is getting started. And the second problem is sticking with it. Now, at some level, what does it mean to stick with something? Well, it basically means that you get started each day.

6:00So we could say ultimately this boils down to being good at starting. And if you can just do that day in and day out, then you are consistent. And there are a variety of things that you can do to make starting easier. You can optimize your environment. You can scale the habit down to make it easier to get going. There are ways to track progress and kind of try to build up a feeling momentum. And we can talk about all that stuff in more detail if you want. But you do in the beginning, I think, need to have a couple things in mind that maybe you don't need to worry about as much once you're already going with a habit or once you're picking up a habit.

6:33that you've done consistently. And I would say two of the core things to think about when you're trying to build a habit for the first time. The first one is, what would this look like if it was fun? You know, what would it look like if it was fun to meditate every day? What would it look like if I enjoyed exercising? What would it look like if it was fun for me to write? And, you know, there are not 1000 ways to do everything in life. But there's almost always more than one way. and it's worth it to think about what is the version of this habit that I am most genuinely excited about. You know, the most common New Year's resolutions do some form of exercise.

7:08And I kind of feel like a lot of people go to the gym in January just because they feel like they should be going to the gym or like society wants them to go to the gym. And you should choose the version of that habit that's most compelling to you. You know, yoga, rock climbing, kayaking, go for a run. We could come up with a very long list of ways to live an active life, and you should choose the version of that that's most appealing to you. I think it's worth leaning against this question of what would this look like if it was fun for me. That's a really good place to start. Speaking of stuff that is fun for me, I'm going to be selfish here for a second and use you while we have you.

7:44I want to get better at golf. Neil does as well, I can tell in his face, but I live in New York City. How would you set up kind of a get better at golf system? What should step one be for us? Yeah, that's an interesting question. I mean, I think you have to play with or sit with the question of like, how good can you get at golf if you're not on a golf course? And so at some point, this might come down to prioritizing your time and figuring out how to actually get out to a course more consistently. But assuming that that's not possible and you are going to be in the city more, you You got to come up with a list of all the things that you could potentially do, whether it's getting to a simulator or installing some kind of putting green in your apartment or whatever it is.

8:28And then I think there are a lot of, once you figure out what the actual behavior is going to be, there are a lot of things you can do to optimize it. So let's take the putting green in the apartment. I had one reader who, he would go to his guitar lessons and he would practice and play with his instructor. and then he'd go home and he wouldn't really do anything throughout the week. And then he'd go back the next week and his instructor would be like, you didn't practice, you're not going to get better at this. And so he took his guitar stand and put it in the middle of the living room where he'd pass it 30 times a day and now he's much more likely to play.

8:59So that's one simple example of environment design. And we could think about doing the same sort of thing for golf. If you're only practicing when you're going to see an instructor, you might improve a little bit. But if you're not going every day or practicing every day, it's going to be hard to really get better. So making it more obvious is one example. And then I kind of think given the environmental constraints of this one, it's going to come down to being creative and figuring out, like, how can you tack on around a golf to every work trip? Or how can you tack on around a golf to every time that you leave the city to visit your family?

9:33Basically, any time that you're getting out to somewhere where it's more likely to be able to actually get onto a course. James, you have no idea how much ammunition you're providing me right now. because listen, James Clear told me I have to go practice golf, mom. I'm so sorry that I'm home for Christmas and I'm hitting the course. So thank you for all that. That was actually very enlightening as well. Sure. So sticking in the sports category, my old soccer coach always used to say he was British. So this is my British accent. Toby, do you love to win or do you hate to lose? I never had a great answer for it.

10:05So I'm turning it over to you. What is a more effective motivator, positive or negative reinforcement? That's interesting. Do you love to win or do you hate to lose? Okay, so there are two thoughts that come to mind. The last part of your question, what is a more effective motivator? They are both effective motivators. I find that in the long run, it is often better to have some kind of positive motivation to pull you forward. In the short run, negative consequences for sure will shape your behavior. And you touch a hot stove once and burn yourself. you don't do it for most of the rest of your life unless it's an accident.

10:42So like that negative consequence certainly has shaped your behavior. And we can think of many examples of that throughout life. However, there is an interesting strategic piece to this, which is. In some cases, you can actually win by avoiding loss better than you can by chasing victory. So the classic example of this is if you're playing tennis at the amateur level, if you're playing tennis in high school or against somebody in your neighborhood or something like that, almost always the way to win that match is to just have fewer unforced errors. Just keep the ball in play. Keep going until your opponent makes a mistake.

11:20And so in that case, avoiding failure is actually the best path to win. However, at the high level, you know, if you're playing in your Roger Federer or Serena Williams or something, the pros have to play to win. They can't play to not lose because their opponent will keep the ball in play all day long. And so I think it's worth asking yourself, at what level am I playing? And what am I actually working on here? In a lot of cases, you can make a great deal of progress by avoiding mistakes. But when you're at the top of your field, you often have to play to win. And so there's the strategic side of this.

11:51But then there's also the question of like, do positive reinforcements or negative reinforcements work? The answer is yes. But I think positive is better in the long run. Sorry to take us off Tovey's personal coaching track, but accountability partners are another popular mechanism for forming a habit where you rely on the peer pressure of someone else to keep you on track. Do you believe in accountability partners? And is there ever a world in which they could become a crutch in a bad way? So the short answer is yes, I believe in them. But I actually think that they are much more common than they realize, and they take a much different shape than we realize.

12:31And they for sure work in both positive and negative ways. The way that I would describe this, you know, most people think about an accountability partner, and they think about like actually signing up with a group or enlisting a friend to, you know, keep track of whether they did their workout or something. I would say if we just broaden this a little bit to say, what is the social dynamic? And how do so how does your social environment influence your habits? The answer is in a great and very meaningful way. So we are all part of multiple groups. Some of those groups are large, like what it means to be American.

13:02Some of those groups are small, like what it means to be a neighbor on your street or a member of the local CrossFit gym. And all of these groups, large and small, they have an influence on your behavior and habits. And when actions are aligned with the expectations of the group with like the social norms, habits are pretty attractive and the social environment will really help like usher you along. And when habits go against the grain of the expectations of the group, when they kind of add a little bit of friction between you and your social relationships, that's a form of accountability too.

13:35Sometimes not always the kind that you want and habits will be very hard to build. And ultimately this comes back to one of the like deepest human needs that we all have, which is a desire to bond and connect. You know, we all, humans are social creatures. We all want to be a part of something, even if it's just your little family unit. And so if people have to decide between, you know, I have habits that I don't really love, but I fit in, I belong, I'm part of something. Or I have the habits that I want to have, but I'm cast out, I'm ostracized, I'm criticized. A lot of the time, the desire to belong will overpower the desire to improve.

14:14And so as best as possible, you need to get those two things aligned. And I think the punchline is you want to join groups where your desired behavior is the normal behavior. Because if it's normal in that group, then it's going to be really motivating to stick to it. So if your New Year's resolution is to drink less, then maybe you want to stop hanging out with people who drink a lot and start hanging out with people who go camping on the weekends. I mean, you could do it, but you're just playing the game on hard mode. And it's so much easier if you're surrounded by people who have the habits that you want to have, and then you can rise together.

14:48This is something that I talk about in Atomic Habits. There's a chapter called The Secret to Self-Control. And one of the surprising things about a lot of the research regarding willpower is that when you look at people, elite athletes, or someone who you aspire to be like, and you think, oh, if I just had the discipline they had, or I just had the willpower they have. Certainly, people can have varying levels of willpower, but the primary finding from a lot of this research is that the people who appear to have great willpower are the people who are tempted less frequently. And so they are the benefits of favorable situations.

15:22Sometimes they're just lucky, but sometimes it's a situation they design. And I always think that's an interesting way to think about it. If you, in the long run, your willpower will almost never beat your environment. And so it's up to you to design an environment and hang out with a set of people and put yourself in situations that serve the habits that you want to build rather than hinder them. Speaking of your book, Atomic Habits, it came out five years ago at this point. So is there anything in there that you've changed your mind about or anything that you've learned recently that you wish you could put in there?

15:55Yeah, well, there are two things that I wish I would have either emphasized more or added. And actually, we've touched on both of them briefly. So the first thing that I didn't write about that I wish I would have is what would your habits look like if they were fun and finding the version of the habit that is most genuinely appealing to you. So in a lot of ways, I feel like that is like maybe the most enormous hurdle to cross, because if you're genuinely interested in a habit, there are like endless ways to improve it. But if you're not actually interested, you're just kind of forcing the issue or making yourself do it.

16:25Even the obvious improvements are going to feel like a chore. So that's the first thing. The second thing is I talked about the influence of family and friends on your habits and how that can kind of shape things. But I think I undersold the importance of social environment. If you're if you look at habits that really last, like in some cases, years or even decades, like let's say I walk outside my home in the summer and I see my neighbor mowing their grass. I might think, oh, I need to cut the grass, too. And like you'll stick to that habit of mowing your lawn for five, 10, 30 years, however long you live in the house.

16:59And like we wish we had that level of consistency with a lot of our other habits. And it's like, why do you do it? partially you do it because it feels good to have a clean lawn, but mostly it feels good to have a clean lawn because you don't be judged by the people in the neighborhood for being the sloppy one. And so it's actually the social expectation, the social norm for what it means to be a neighbor on your street that helps get that habit to stick. And so many of our habits are socially driven like that. Those are the two things that I wish I would have emphasized more. So maybe if my goal is to read a lot this year, the first thing I should do is create a Goodreads account because then my entire reading history will be online and I'll be judged by my peers about whether I hit my goal or not.

17:41Sure. So that's one way to do it. You know, picking two friends that are also interested in reading and starting a book club is another way to do it. You don't even have to start one. Like you could just join one that's already going. There are tons of ways to be part of that. You know, start browsing subreddits with people who love books and just like engage there and leave comments. And then now you're kind of like surrounded by other people who are reading and feel like you have a little bit of momentum. There are many ways to do it. But the core idea is like, how can I build connection with people who already have the habits I want to have?

18:13And the more that those people start to become your friends or start to populate your thoughts, the more that you're going to feel compelled to do those things as well. This is just making me reconsider each other because we spend so much time with each other hosting this daily podcast. We better rub off in each other in the best ways, Neil. So you mentioned social media a little bit in that last answer, and I want to talk about your social media account. Your profile picture is someone, it might be you, looking up at this seemingly infinite ice wall or glacier. Is nature kind of one of those things that helps put things into perspective for you?

18:47How does nature kind of fit into your philosophy and outlook on life? That's interesting. Yeah, I think to a large degree, many of the themes and concepts I write about originated in nature or you could be inspired from them there. Like if you think about building habits or making positive change, what we're talking about is some kind of transformation or evolution. And of course, you know, evolution is this huge driving force in nature. And so there's a lot of inspiration and crossover there. As far as like what my profile picture is and why it shows that, I have a very odd social media accounts.

19:21You know, like I never show my face. My Instagram account is just like blocks of text and, you know, different quotes and sayings. It's a very strange feed. But my my way of thinking about it is like I don't really care about being front and center. I want the ideas to be front and center. And I want a brand that's known by name, not by face. So like Calvin Klein or Kate Spade or something like that. Like, you know, some people might know what Calvin Klein looks like, but the vast majority of people know the name, but not the face. And I think that's fine. Like James Clear could be like that, too.

19:51And I also feel like it's a useful handicap. You know, like I always think I don't have anything to hide behind. Like, it's just the ideas. So they better be good because otherwise people are going to stop paying attention. James Clear coming to a handbag near you. I know, yeah. When's the clothing line dropping? We'll be right back with James Clear after this. Eczema isn't always obvious, but it's real. And so is the relief from Evglyss. After an initial dosing phase, about 4 in 10 people taking EBCLIS achieved itch relief and clear or almost clear skin at 16 weeks. And most of those people maintained skin that's still more clear at one year with monthly dosing.

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21:32I'm so excited to embark on this adventure with all of you. Make the best idea win! On Brand with Jimmy Fallon. Series premiere tonight on NBC. You have talked to lots of different Fortune 500 companies, Capital One, Cisco G, Honda. The list goes on. What do these Fortune 500 companies want to know? What are they looking for from you, the quote unquote habit guy? They're looking for the same thing everybody else is looking for, which is consistency. You know, most of the time they know the things that they want their team to do. They're just trying to get them to do them more frequently. so you know we all i think we all could do this if you were going to just do like a classic 80 20 analysis on your job you're going to write down everything that you do and then we're going to draw a line at the top 20 and you're not allowed to do the bottom 80 of tasks but if you really crush it on the top 80 if you like or top 20 if you just totally knock it out of the park you probably still have a job because those are the things that really move the needle We all sort of implicitly know what some of those things are.

22:37And all these companies are the same way. Like they know what really matters. And so what they're trying to do is to get their team there, you know, I'll speak to 800 salespeople or their top 300 executives or something like that. They're trying to get people to direct their attention towards those things more and to do them more consistently. Is setting goals for others like you would do in a business environment similar to setting goals for yourself? Or is there a different calculus that you would need to take? At some root level, it is the same, but I do think there are some meaningful differences.