What Gary Vee Thinks of a Possible TikTok Ban, AI Influencers and Why It's Not Bad to be Cringe

0:28Change is always happening. Good morning, Brew Daily Show. I'm Neil Freiman. And I'm Toby Hell. This holiday, there's a special interview episode coming your way. Gary Vaynerchuk, a.k.a. Gary V. That's right. We snagged the entrepreneur, investor, wine connoisseur, and media personality right off your TikTok and Instagram feeds and sat down with him in this very studio. He shared his thoughts on the upcoming TikTok ban, explained why AI influencers are taking over, and Toby straight up asked him when he says to people who call him cringy. Listen, I was curious, okay? But yes, this was a very fun one.

1:04Gary was energetic as ever, and it's coming up right after this quick word from our sponsor, Sage. We're not taking Memorial Day off, and neither is Sage. Sage is the platform built for financial professionals to make your life easier. I love how they've incorporated AI into their business. You can use Sage AI to review thousands of transactions in minutes. imagine an up to the second view of your business's performance with no hassle. It gives you more time to do things like go grill some food, play some yard games, or listen to this special Memorial Day episode with Gary V. If that sounds good to you, visit sage.com slash morningbrew.

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2:53Gary, thanks for jumping on the show today. Thank you, boys. Thanks for having me. So first question, you work in the intention economy where attention is currency, but who out there or what out there has your attention right now? That's a good question. You know, I go very broad. What I mean by that is what has my attention? Like I'll show you something. Let's do show and tell. There's an app on my phone. I'm not involved in it. It's called Break the Web. It's early. I'm not even sure it's gonna crush the way I think it might, but look what it does. It does trending topics for the whole web, AI-wise.

3:26So what Twitter does, but no, no, for the whole web, right? So what has my attention? Everything that's on here. What's runaway horses? There's some runaway horses in the British art, right? I want to know, much like what you guys are doing here, what's going on every day. And then sometimes people pick up real momentum, right? So it'll go from a year ago or two years ago, like who's the sexy red person to like wait a minute i think she might pop right or it might be like oh this kid aiden ross right or like like oh this you know this funny comedian king batch 100 years ago like so that will happen with people and it will happen with trends i'm like why are we going to like super baggy 90s pants again like you know seven years ago like or five years ago like are dudes gonna wear nail polish like is that cool now like like so i stay crazy macro curious I don't go deep except for things I love like the Knicks and the Jets and like wine I don't go deep on a lot and I go very wide, very wide like every moment of the moment what's happening and then if something feels like it if it gains a moment then I'll go a little deeper so everything at a one then some things earn a two then some things are like oh this is a three which would, and that's there would be like, oh, this Charli D 'Amelio girl is about to be like the person on this TikTok thing.

4:51Like that's how my brain works. Let's talk about this new book you have dropping though, Day Trading Attention, How to Actually Build Brand and Sales in the New Social Media World. It's actually an update to a book you wrote 10 years ago on similar topics. What has changed in the time between those two books are coming out? And then I guess follow up, what has stayed the same? Great question. So yeah, I have a new book coming out, Day Trading Attention. it's the follow-up to jab jab jab right hook this book's title originally was jab jab jab left hook and then when i was writing and i'm like wait a minute this is my thesis and and i've come to realize my thesis is day trading attention like you know when i launched my dad's liquor store's website in 1997 how old were you guys in 97 zero i was six yeah so you know like think about that like it was a long time ago and i knew the internet was going to happen and then email marketing and then Google and then I started a YouTube show like this in 2006 right like I always pay attention to where the attention is so what what's what stayed the same since Jab Jab Right Hook meta stills I'm still a monster so Facebook and Instagram still really matter right um and and Twitter and X still matter um YouTube obviously the TikTokification of social media has changed everything let me go into that because that's going to be valuable to everybody the social media I grew up with and the one that you guys grew up with was about email marketing get as many followers as possible and when you post a percentage of them will see it right same like email marketing build a million person mailing list email out morning brew get as many people as you can and 30 40 50 depending on 15 depending how good your email is will open it and some will act on it same with social I amassed a couple million followers on Twitter and a certain percentage would see it and some of them would act on it now we live in a world where it's not about building the following.

6:40It's the individual pieces of creative being good and finding the audience. That is profound. Massive change. And should give everyone who's listening a lot of excitement because it's a level of meritocracy, a start over. Everyone who's missed it hasn't missed s***. They literally can go make a poker video right now for 49 seconds and they're a year away from making a lot of money being a poker influencer. That's insane. Do you think there will be social media companies that pop up that fill the gap that aren't AI-generated, you know, AI-recommended content? It'll just be your friends like Facebook and Twitter and all these other social media companies used to be?

7:20Do I think that because we'll go through an era of this that the pendulum will swing? Of course I do. Now, I think that's being serviced right now by text message groups and WhatsApp. By the way, that's why Snapchat crushes. Like, for the youth, it's Snap, and then people go to iMessage or WhatsApp, depending if they're international or Telegram or right. Like that's, that's the game. Like what this, the small social network is called your seven person Sixers group chat that all you are going to be talking about tonight, frustrated because you're down three Oh after the game's over. We'll see about that.

7:54When this comes out, I'm sure the Sixers will be cruising to the finals. While we're on the topic of TikTokification, Biden just signed a bill banning or requiring ByteDance to divest from TikTok. Let's just say in the hypothetical scenario, TikTok does go away within the next 12 months. Who are going to be the winners and losers in this new paradigm? I'm not sure, but here's my hot takes. I don't love to predict, which is why there's not a lot of horrible receipts for me out there. I try to wait for things to happen, but here's my feeling. One, I think that's going to happen, which is wild. So that's an enormous, it's one of the biggest resets of attention we've ever had.

8:33Usually it's gradual. When we went from the radio to television, it was gradual. When we went from the television to the cell phone, it was gradual. This is gonna be a shock of an ungodly amount of hours of attention having to find new audience. Here are the winners. Meta for sure. Instagram's gonna get a ton. Because a lot of people have their, people are insecure. They don't wanna start building again. So they'll go to the place where they have. So I think Instagram will be a big winner. I think a dark horse winner is X because I think they're going to reboot Vine. I don't know that to be true.

9:06I don't know anything, but I think it makes a lot of sense. I've been thinking it for a couple of months. Then I did see a tweet from Elon, like Vine, question mark, or I don't remember how he did it, but like it would make, I mean, Vine was the one that started this short form movement. I think YouTube shorts has a chance. And then I think the dark horse and the one that excites me the most versus the unknown entrepreneur. You've got to imagine that there's an ungodly amount of kids right now who are working on their TikTok clone to try to capture that. I mean, if I was 19 at Stanford or at home in a community, I don't know, if I was capable, I would be building with the hope because it's, by the way, this already happened.

9:45It's called India. India banned TikTok. TikTok is not in India. And India had a bunch of clones pop up. Now, India is unique because there's a lot of language dialects. You'd need it. but in the U.S. I think there'll be five to 10 brand new startups that are gonna try to claim it. I think Instagram's gonna come through huge. I think Snapchat, if they got their act together a little bit and got more serious about Spotlight and really made that a bigger part of it, could also pick up a lot. So I think Snap, depending if they do some tweaks, Instagram's definitely gonna get some. YouTube Shorts is definitely gonna get some.

10:17And then I think Vine's the other big dark horse. I do wanna talk about another shock to the system as you described it, and that's AI. One of the talks you recently said that what social media influencers have done to traditional celebrities, you think AI influencers are about to do to traditional social media influencers. Over the next five to 10 years. Why are you so bullish on this new class of influencers, these AI influencers? It's already happened. There's a lot of attractive girls on Instagram that aren't real people that are getting brand deals and selling only family camps. So do you think that has a net positive effect on social media?

10:53Like, is it going to be better? I mean, a big thing that you preach is authenticity and connecting truly with people. What's it going to be like in five years when the people you're authentically connecting with aren't real people at all? Do you think Santa Claus is good? I thought you were going to say, is he real? I was going to say like, yes, I do. Santa Claus has never given me anything, so I don't think he's good. Okay. Do you think Rocky Balboa is good or bad? So you're saying... Neutral on Rocky. So I think you're following where I'm going, right? Yeah. Like, I think it's gonna be. Meaning like, it's going to happen and we're going to evolve.

11:28Many people thought the television, do you, let me go even further back. Do you know that when electricity was invented, 80 % of the people didn't want it in their house because it had demons in it? Demons. Like, we can't leave the candles. The candles are right. This is bad. Like, when MySpace came out, they're like, this is gonna, Like, your kids are going to get kidnapped at the mall if they go on MySpace. Like, we demonize new technologies. What do I think? I think it's evolution. I think it's just part of the game. All right, Gary, stay right there. We'll be right back.

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12:31Raise the rudders! Raise the sails! Raise the sails! Captain, an unidentified ship is approaching. Over. Roger. Wait, is that an enterprise sails solution? Reach sails professionals, not professional sailors. With LinkedIn ads, you can target the right people by industry, job title, and more. Start converting your B2B audience today. Spend$250 on your first campaign and get a free$250 credit for the next one. Get started today at linkedin.com slash campaign. Terms and conditions apply. Speaking of influencers, recently the YouTuber Marcus Brownlee reviewed the Humane AI pin and he called it the single worst product he's ever reviewed.

13:10that sparked a debate about the responsibility of reviewers and the power of individuals to tank a company what was your takeaway from that whole saga listen he first of all he's one of my favorite people to watch over the last 20 years i've watched that kid authentically work you know he's got an opinion like as long as brantley is like actually giving his honest opinion and there isn't some back-end deal because he's trying to tank it for so as long as he's honestly saying like this is what I believe well he's earned a lot of respect and trust with his audience I think it's wonderful if it's well intended yeah like when I did wine library tv I did a thousand episodes and I also at one point had a lot of power and I was I didn't love it to be frank I when I would sit there about three years in like if I reviewed a wine on wine library tv well it mattered and if I reviewed it poorly it wasn't like I could tank a wine but it wasn't good Now, what I see a lot from influencers, especially in the beauty space, they get a little bit going and then they get high in their own supply and they feel their power a little bit and they actually deviate from their actual feelings or they're playing a little bit more of a ego game.

14:19That's dangerous. It's so funny to me because when I inevitably text all my friends, hey, I'm interviewing Gary V this week, what do you want me to ask him? A lot of them did go to wine, like, hey, give me a cheap$20 bottle of wine. So it's amazing how to this day, like that's still, I mean, yeah, you built up this huge kind of, it's also cool. Like when I was coming up, when I was your friend's age, like wine wasn't cool like that. And even though wine has declined and alcohol is even declining with kids. And like, it is definitely way cooler than when I was doing it for you. That makes me feel good.

14:51It's it's real. Wine's really cool because it's a farming product. Like unlike a Hershey's bar or, or poppy bourbon or a craft beer or like toothpaste or a deodorant, you may love a wine this year. So you may love the 2021 version. And then the next year, you might not like it as much. And that keeps, it makes it fun. Do you think there is an existential crisis for the alcohol industry more broadly now? I mean, every single trend shows that Gen Z and younger kids are moving away from alcohol at very significant levels. Not only that, you have cannabis. And like, yeah. Now, I think the world speaks in absolutes.

15:31Do I think no one's gonna drink alcohol? No, I do not. Do I also know that even a 5 or 10 macro percent swing down is tough on businesses? Yes, I do. Do I also know that even with a, let's just make for 10, in 10 years, 10 % less alcohol consumed in the world overall. Big number if that was to happen. Still, somebody can start a brand new mezcal or beer or wine and crush. Like there's, it's a big ass number. There's a lot of alcohol being consumed. so I'm not crying for everyone in alcohol. I don't think my dad's liquor store is going out of business. I don't think winetext.com is going to stop doing well but in the macro, yeah, there's less opportunity but the best players are going to get more.

16:15I want to shift gears. By the way, real quick, before you shift gears, I just didn't want to lose this thought. You know where I think we've really lost our way with our actual opinions? Sports. I think the guys and gals on ESPN, on Barstool, I think they say things they don't fully believe. I think too many sports because they're just looking for another headline when they're like LeBron stings I don't think they believe it they found that that's what drives engagement and viewership is having a hot take and it doesn't matter whether you're right or not you just have to have a strong opinion that I'm fine with I have f***ing strong opinions I just think when I watch it I don't think he actually believes that I don't think he believes that Jason Tatum is a dog that Iguodala is going to take the final three made of the world on the line you know what I mean that's a place where they've really lost their way I think we the audience can kind of feel like two weeks ago you said Embiid was the greatest now you're saying it's just I think they're running out of shit to say I don't think it's cool to stick on this like one of the things that I always laugh about with my content because I also talk every day on the internet is Gary you say the same and they're trying to like razz me I'm like man What do you want me to talk about shit I don't believe in?

17:28Like, yes, there are 45 principles I believe in. Luckily, the world keeps evolving. I believe in attention. I'm going to be there to talk about virtual influencers. I didn't know virtual influencers were coming 10 years ago. So the world will change. But I'm not going to change my principles. So I guess this isn't that much of a gear shift at this point. You kind of segwayed for me. I want to talk about this label cringe that people have been applying to everyone from Taylor Swift to the friend who you knew in high school is now trying to become an influencer on Instagram. And some people have applied that label to your content as well.

18:01So how do you think about the concept of cringe and how it's become almost weaponized today? I don't think about it at all. I think about it with compassion. I think if you're someone who weaponizes anything, cringe, luck, I think envy is obvious. And I also think it's silly. I think a lot of it's not even that serious i think 80 of the people that throw around cringe it's like banter like amongst it's like sixers nick it's banter and the 20 that mean it i feel bad for if you're running around the internet replying cringe in the comments to something your life isn't awesome means you're not in a happy place like you're trying to deploy some negativity because you're not feeling good so 90 80 i'm like some locker room like homie like my my best my boys that i went to mount ida college with they say the worst in the world and i get plenty of you know it's your boy like like so i think 90 of it is just banter but the 10 i i actually view as if you need to tell taylor swift she's cringe in the comments of her latest instagram post i just know where you're at mentally and like i got love for you and i hope you get the out of that yeah i love this concept there's Cringe Mountain and there's some people who are on Cringe Mountain working their way up and the people who are usually commenting in the comment section are at base camp they haven't even stepped foot on it so that's just another way yeah it's just like like I get it like this is America this is humans this is the what the world does we love to build up then we love to tear down but then we love a Britney's back bitch too so like we'll literally go through full like look at Taylor her we like literally actually built the world built her up then she went through that period where like literally tore all the way down only to build her up to levels that we've rarely seen and you know and then guess what it'll be time like and so like this goes back to detachment like i think one of the cool things that i'm hoping more people realize like for me i'm i'm very grateful that i'm a good businessman but like i got fortunate like when i was like my whole life when I was growing up, like, grades were the most important thing.

20:14And like, I was bad at that. And so I was told by the world that I was a loser. So I got used to it. Like, somebody in the comments being like, you Gary V is at 48 years old is very different than being 12 and having a teacher saying, you're a loser. You're dumb. Because in the 80s, they weren't politically correct in Jersey. So like, if I was able to handle that, you know, and I think about that a lot. Let's talk quickly about sports. You own a major league pickleball team. You're part owner of a big three basketball team, which that league founded by Ice Cube. And you're an investor in the revival of a slam ball league.

20:49What are you seeing in these upstart leagues in sports? Where's the opportunity in sports? Where do you see as the best investment right now? Great question. Um, the 1982 NBA finals game, a 1982 NBA finals game between the Lakers and Sixers in America, was not aired in real time. It was on tape delay. The first Super Bowl did not sell out all of its tickets. Me and my boys watched the first UFC pay-per-view because we never thought there'd be another one because it was human cockfighting. The history of sports tells you that new ones pop up. F*** changes. When the radio was the primary device of consumption, baseball, boxing, and horse racing were the three most popular sports because they're very good sports to listen to in announcer form.

21:41Basketball, football were coming up, but they were different. When we went to television, those things exploded, especially football. It is a TV product. I believe that we're in the beginning stages of very substantial communication shifts. Obviously, I've been at the forefront of the social media. What I've always called was the mobile device was the television, and television was the radio. That's what I've been arguing in marketing for the last 10 years. I think VR is coming. I don't think, it may not be now, like even today there's a headline, Apple's downgrading the, right, back to me being wide, I pay attention.

22:14But I don't view that as like, see, VR is dead. I view that as cell phones weren't crushing in the 80s the way people wanted them to either. You know why? They're too expensive. I promise you, if the Apple headset or the Facebook headset was$19, everyone would have, you know what I mean? And the technology's gotta get better. The first version of the Oculus compared to the Vision Pro, in this short little window is game-changing. Plus, I don't even think it's gonna be this. I think it's gonna be contact lenses and no friction. So, where am I going? I believe that over the next 20, 30 years, the world's gonna change quite a bit from a distribution and media landscape.

22:50And I think some sports will over-index. As you can tell, I'm putting bets on different things. I'm trying to learn. Obviously, I have an incredibly big goal of buying the New York Jets. So, I like owning, like, I'm really, like, we had a real draft in the Pickleball League. Like, I have salaries. I have like a sponsorship, get people to attend the matches, get attention for it. So I'm getting good practice. And do I believe that pickleball has a dark horse chance? I do. Do I think, you know, I invested in an e-sports team and in the variant and call of duty league with the Wilfs who owned the Vikings prior to that.

23:21I'm also investing in a three on three women's league. Like I'm, I'm trying to learn and I'm making bets. Look, I, there was a, there's a tag league, like tag world. Like I'm not doing it, but I love it. I think it's got a real chance. This guy would be good at that. No, I've seen that. I would not. They are incredible at that. Wait, are you like a, you're like a little bit of a tag savant? Yeah, Toby Crack of Day. You f***ed with people with freeze tag back in the day. Yes, absolutely. That was, that was. Freeze tag was different. The currency of elementary school. Absolutely. All right, so we're running up on time here.

23:52So I do just want to get your perspective on the big question right now of like, how is social media affecting kids in particular? A lot of people want to know Gen Z, Gen Alpha. Are the kids gonna be all right? The kids are gonna be all right. I think we've created this narrative that it's like the same old adage. Like, things change, but everything's the same. And so the difference is, the reason everything feels intense now is you have media at your disposal every minute of the day. You still go to work for eight hours and not have media. Like, people don't get it. People are like, it's never been worse.

24:27I'm like, do you know what the Civil War looked like? They're like, it's never been worse in America. I'm like, you know what the Civil War is? Like, we're very bad in the context of history. And so the kids are going to be all right. And my answer is the kids are going to be all right if the parents parent. It's that simple sometimes. Gary, thanks for joining us. This was awesome. Quick hitting. I know our audience will enjoy your perspectives on a lot of things. Check out his new book, Day Training Attention. It's out now and you can find him literally everywhere on social media. So Gary, it was a pleasure.

25:01Thank you, everyone. Have a great morning. Thanks, Gary.