Dr Punam Krishan: Why So Many Mothers Feel Exhausted, Overwhelmed and Unseen

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0:35Meet Juan Naula. When a son was hospitalized for a viral infection, Juan started a GoFundMe to pay for medical expenses.

0:43Zoe:It was$5K to pay the bill for my son, and I needed only 22 hours. It was amazing. People really trust on GoFundMe. How did Juan raise$5 ,000 in less than a day? He posted a short video on GoFundMe, telling his story in 30 seconds. 30 seconds. Be specific. Be quick. And tell what are you going to be using the funds for. I was nervous to do it because it doesn't feel okay to ask money. But you shouldn't be nervous. Sometimes you just have to do it and see the results. We were able to save my son's life. Thanks to GoFundMe that we still have my son with us. Start your GoFundMe today at GoFundMe.com That's GoFundMe.com GoFundMe.com This message reflects one person's experience That is the maternal health penalty We have normalized exhaustion, pain And just, it's just not okay I don't know why I'm so tired all the time And just collapsing in a heap Often thinking that it's their fault You are not alone That you are not imagining things that you have not failed at anything.

1:56Zoe:Hi, welcome to this episode of Motherkind. It is me, your host Zoe, and we are proudly sponsored by Wild Nutrition's Women's Supplements. I think one of the things that motherhood has taught me is just how quickly life can change. And often we don't really appreciate what really matters until we're forced to stop and pay attention. And in this episode, I am joined by the brilliant Dr. Poonam Krishnan, GP, broadcaster and author of her debut book, The Mother Load. For a conversation that is honest, moving, we both cried, and incredibly powerful. Poonam shares her experience of being diagnosed with cancer, what it felt like when she received the All Clear.

2:43Zoe:We talk about the journey that changed her perspective on life and motherhood. We talk about her traumatic birth, postnatal depression, and why the maternal mental health landscape and how we support and treat mothers desperately needs to change. And what I love about this conversation is that while it's deeply personal, it also explores so many core themes for many of us. You know, the unseen physical, emotional and mental challenges that we face and what Poonam calls the maternal health penalty. you know, the very real gap that we experience in our well-being. This conversation is raw, it's wise, and it is deeply validating.

3:27Zoe:And just a trigger warning, we do talk about cancer, we talk about postnatal depression and birth trauma. So if that is going to be difficult for you, maybe skip those parts. In the meantime, don't forget to subscribe wherever you are listening or watching this, and I hope you love it.

3:48Zoe:I'm so excited to be sat opposite you. I feel like I know you. Same here. And you have, my gosh, you have been having a really incredible time with the book. Yeah. And also a really challenging time because you got a cancer diagnosis. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's this, we're all living two sides of a coin most of the time. I definitely think that the last year has been one of the craziest years of my life. Hands down the hardest six months of my life. Very out the blue, you know, was diagnosed with breast cancer. And something that just, of course, nobody can predict what's going to happen to you.

4:33But when you're certainly sat there, I'm fit, no family history. you know getting told those words was just earth-shattering really so yes that was six months ago pleased to say that I'm on the other side and I'm healing and I'm recovering but I think there's something that happens with cancer that I've become much more aware of is that a lot of people talk about when you're having active treatment but actually once the physical stuff settles down there's this whole other healing that takes place which is about how shook the nervous system is and I feel like emotionally and mentally it's been one of the darkest times of my life so I'm still learning to process and trust the body and yeah just find my way again because everything just feels different albeit you know you can carry grief and sadness and loss but I feel very grateful and blessed and happy too so yeah that's funny it is because i felt like i was

5:40Zoe:saying to you before my 10 year old got asked to choose an inspiring woman at school yeah and she chose you because she loves you on strictly makes me want to cry because she was like she was just so in raptured by your bollywood she was just like mommy i love it and then she had to write this peace yeah and about and she chose you I think that's just do you know when a child tells you that they love you or a child is inspired by someone it's such a real feeling and emotion I think as grown-ups people sometimes just say oh you're great you're amazing but when a child says that that means it's so much more so thank you uh I've just last 20 years was obsessed still am with strictly uh it was one of those things that was just this fantasy like imagine imagine my wildest dreams that somebody will call me and ask me to do strictly one day and then you're there and you're dancing and you're getting to have a moment that speaks to your community and all the community wide and far like in India my grandparents watching you know it was just it was such a magical moment and I still can't believe that happened but actually coming back to talking about breast cancer just recently at one of my appointments my consultant was talking about you know the tumor and he was like you know you would have had this when you were doing strictly and I just get chills even thinking about that that at one moment I'm like dancing in the center stage of my life it is the most exhilarating experience ever but at the same time this process is happening on a cellular level in my body and then a year to the day later I was diagnosed and I think this is it I think that from afar everybody can think that everyone's got it okay but you just never know when life is going to do its twists and turns and you know my kids were just in awe of the whole Strictly experience it's not just one person that does Strictly the whole family did it my whole community all the mums were involved we were it was a thing but then a year later we were navigating cancer as a family and just nothing prepares you for that but I guess that this whole experience has massively taught me that all I have is today and my health is the most important thing that I have I've had the scariest time and I think as mums as well when you're told something like this all you think about is your children it's just your kids all you see in front of you is your children and so yes it's been hard but we're good for now it's so interesting how you say my health is my number one priority because i think you talk about it a lot in the book and it's so easy as mums isn't it yeah to just be like i'll go to the appointment next week while we're booking our kids appointments or i'll start exercising or start drinking more water whatever it is that we know that we need to do we just put it off and off and off we absolutely do mums are so guilty of it and i guess that the mother load actually started with my own experience as a mum.

8:51So I'm going back, my little boy turns 13 in two weeks time. And at the time when he was born, I had a very traumatic birth experience. I'd had a lovely normal pregnancy. There wasn't anything unexpected we thought about. And during the birth was when everything that could have gone wrong went wrong. My baby was okay, but I ended up with multi-organ failure and sepsis following a very awful bleed and I was in intensive care and a ventilator for a week it was a really really scary time and I appreciate we're starting this this podcast episodes with like two major health hiccups but hiccups but you know what I mean um but at that time I hadn't planned for any of this you know you think when you're pregnant it's all going to be You visualize his birth and a lot of us are taught to during antenatal classes what the birth could look like.

9:50And you romanticize this perfect birth experience. For a lot of women, that doesn't happen. And for me, certainly that wasn't the case the first time around. I had a lot of complications physically, but also mentally I had severe postnatal depression. And I remember at the time just feeling so lost. It wasn't the motherhood that I had planned to step into. but everybody and of course we celebrate the birth of the baby but everyone was interested in the baby I remember so many times sitting there going does anyone see me and I was supported I was loved everyone around me was taking care of me and the baby but I just felt very very lost and even to a degree when I speak to lots of mums now that have gone through a challenging time or whatever we always look for the glimmers we always go but I'm grateful at least my baby was okay everything you know at least everybody else is all right you know and it's always that at leastness that we talk about that we then minimize what is happening to us and I went to see my doctor eventually after a lot of like people saying well I really should go and speak to your GP about this the health visitor was worried about me and I was in and out within a few minutes with an antidepressant and I remember sitting in the car just crying and thinking she didn't actually see me for who I am what I'm going through and and that was the day I promised I was like I promise I'm never going to make a single mum patient feel that way and that was the beginning of it I think just attending classes and seeing other mums but somewhere in the midst of it all just always feeling just what am I doing wrong am I a failure something not right always comparing you know yourself to other mums but at the same time not always addressing my own needs that were you know that I needed to see the doctor or to do this or to do that everything was just baby first what do I need to do and I just thought I'm not mums need to be seen what happens next you know a lot of the books the literature the groups the classes the resources it's all there for pregnancy in abundance it's all there for that first year that your baby's born what happens after that like you feel like where's the resources mum's health maternal health it just falls off a cliff and we are constantly evolving so many changes happen to us right from physical emotional but even our brains are rewired during pregnancy uh yet it just all seems to be capped at the postnatal check with just a few tick boxes and that's you off you go you know uh so the mother load was very much to honor and to um provide real knowledge and insights into what the journey of motherhood looks like from pregnancy postpartum all the way through to perimenopause and beyond that because your mum's for the rest of time and that's the beginning of maternal health and actually as I talk in the book about the maternal health penalty you know we talk about the gender health gap and all the rest of it we know that women for so long from the beginning of time have been underrepresented when it's come to clinical trials medical research everything's based on the male body but when it comes to maternal health we have even less research we have even less information and every single day every year millions of women are giving birth They are experiencing medical health issues during pregnancy, after childbirth.

13:21But, you know, the focus becomes very quickly about the baby and the postnatal support is limited. And I just feel that, you know, it comes at a cost because I have every single day in my surgery, I will have women in their 40s, 50s who come in and they go, gosh, I've got, you know, problems with bladder incontinence. incontinence I if we laugh about it you know oh every time I sneeze or I laugh I wee myself a little bit I can't do the trampoline or I've got back pain or you know you're dry down below or you've had problems with intimacy exhaustion low mood anxiety and actually when you take it right back when did this start oh it started decades ago why did you not come in and see me about it oh I just thought it was normal thought it was normal that is that is the maternal health penalty we have normalized exhaustion pain and and just it's just not okay and I don't want mums to feel this way and I feel it's really empowering to know what's happening in your body at all the stages because we have hormones they change a lot we have lots of different biological things that are evolving in our bodies at every stage and a lot of them start off during pregnancy yeah it's

14:36Zoe:so true it's so true and you say in the book you know this is almost like an epidemic you know there's 40 million mothers with severe health issues yeah yeah oh as there was a direct result of the maternal yeah yeah health penalty yeah exactly and I think that a lot of mums suffer in silence yes that is the thing motherhood is beautiful and we and it is one of the most the beautiful things that you experience and go through. And it can be all of that. But mothers do neglect themselves. Mothers do feel isolated and lonely in the journey. And they put everybody else at the forefront. And then we learn to just, you know, normalize things or we'll share our stories and be like, oh, that happened to you, that happened to me too.

15:21Oh, it's just mum life. It's not. A lot of the time, it's a lot of the things that we experience aren't normal. I have regularly mums coming in that have booked appointments for themselves but actually their baby might have developed a cough or their child's got a rash and they go could you just actually just I'll book again for me but can you see my child of course I get that because instinctively we just want to care for our babies we want them to be perfectly normal and healthy and so you just put yourself constantly at the bottom of the pile and eventually what happens is it does reach that those problems never truly go away.

15:57We just keep parking them, parking them until one day they're a bigger issue. And what I want is mums not to do that. I want them to know from the get-go, this is where you're at just now and this is how things are going to change. Because what we do is we wait for, maybe it'll get better when they start walking. Maybe when they're talking, maybe when they're feeding themselves and a bit more independent, oh, they're going to nursery, now things will get better. You find that actually you're more exhausted. Maybe things will get better when they get to primary school. and then you're even more frazzled and you go what is wrong with me we default to something wrong with me I'm not why is she so good at this and I'm not but actually throughout the whole of it there's lots of things going on in our bodies that we should be understanding and also I think being validated that what you're feeling is is okay that you're not alone in this I think that can be incredibly helpful what are some of the things if someone's listening going oh my gosh

16:54Zoe:I just relate I mean I don't know I wouldn't relate to be honest to what you're saying what are some of the things which like that's not normal and you need to go to your GP and follow up part to that is how do you speak to your GP so that they might they're obviously not all as incredible as you I'm going to sit there and feel seen and heard and listened what so first part is what are those things that we need to not just accept I think it's just what you would do you You know, a really good thing that I use for myself is what would I not accept for my children? Ah, yeah. So if I wouldn't ignore something that's happening to them.

17:27You wouldn't ignore your child leaking, would you? You wouldn't. If they're wetting themselves, if they are pooing themselves, if they are complaining of pain and it's not going away. If, you know, if somebody that you love is complaining of tiredness all the time, they've got no energy, they're forgetting their words. so you know brain fog is very very common but actually there's a real reason for why that happens if any of these things are constantly showing up for you you need to get them seen

17:54Zoe:that's so true because my little girl the other day was like i'm tired and i was like she's saying that every day i was like we need to look at your diet yeah we need to look at this i wouldn't just ignore it yeah but then actually if you look at mums mums are chronically sleep deprived we are constantly like we live in a culture that is a constant output so not only are we physically just having to get up and get on with everything that we have to get on with. We've also got this huge invisible mental load that we carry. And then on top of that, modern motherhood is just full. It's just WhatsApp, emails, work deadlines, school apps, social calendars.

18:31And mothers were not designed to do all of this alone. So it is going to have an impact on your health. It's going to have an impact on your energy levels. It's going to have an impact on how well you sleep. It will manifest itself in inflammation and cause you aches and pains. It might affect your period and make it irregular. You know, these things do show up in our bodies. As women as well, we are very intuitive. So our bodies are very good at speaking to us and we're very good at listening to them. The problem nowadays is everything is really busy. It's chaotic. We are constantly distracted.

19:05And so we take the focus away from ourselves, which we do anyway as mums. And then we start just going, I'll deal with that later. and I think that if there's something that any mum is feeling at the minute there's an ache that hasn't gone away maybe it's something that actually could have started around the time of your childbirth maybe you didn't I mean lots of women don't go and see a pelvic floor physio you know they don't get that rehabilitation which I think every single woman should be offered and should think about you know maybe make that appointment and you ask the question which is really really important of like how do you actually speak up for yourself yeah the thing is in the same way you would you would not mess around if it was your child like we are like get one second opinion for my child you know you wouldn't mess around with a loved one you would take them in you would speak up for them you advocate for them because that's what we do we have to do that for ourselves we have to basically say like i'm not okay i feel like as healthcare professionals, we also have a duty of care.

20:09It shouldn't just all stop at the postnatal check. A lot of women still don't even get a postnatal check. But, you know, that maternal healthcare, that postnatal bit, it has to extend for the duration of a mother's life. So in medical school, we're taught to take histories, you take the medical history, drug history, social history, family history. I always make a point of saying, are you a mum? Have you had any children? Because when a mum comes in, you know, nine times out of 10, it has taken a lot for her to book that appointment. She has had to move a lot of things around, juggle a lot of different things, build up a lot of courage if it's like an intimate personal question or talking about her mood.

20:50She has done a lot to make it into that appointment. You are going to miss so much if you do not find out what her life looks like outside of the practice. You know, you have to ask that because suddenly you go right there's lots of dimensions and layers to what this presenting complaint could be so you're not taught to to ask about children no health no no if it comes up in social history but it's not a specific thing and of course you know i i i do women's health i'm very invested in maternal health and i make the point of doing that a lot of doctors are getting better at doing that but it's not a routine thing so if you came in you know i i feel it's important to opportunistically screen mums so when a mum comes in and it might be that she's like I've just got this cold or a cough or a chest infection or whatever it could be you know and you can see she's not been in for a long time you know just a bit of opportunistic screening there how are you it's a basic question how are you you know how's life going and I've never yet to come across a mum that goes absolutely fine I'm so chilled I'm so calm I'm cushy no usually like I'm really frazzled actually there's a lot going on at the minute my mum's not very well so I'm looking after my mum perimenopause my kids one's you know having some additional needs so it's really quite challenging at home I've got a difficult boss really struggling to meet my child care needs you know and a lot of the time I'm going I hear you I understand you and I think that there needs to be more of that in conversation and I think mums turning up for themselves and taking their own health and well-being as a priority like they would for their children because if there's one thing I've learned through 20 years of being a doctor and recently going through my own illness journey you know when you are healthy when you are well your entire unit around you is healthy and well when you're thriving they thrive but the moment we start letting that very important ball drop everything

22:46Zoe:else starts falling around you it's so true it's so true gosh I was just as I was listening to you I was like, I just wish every GP was like you. I hope we get there one day. And not just sort of me, I think just as a collective, we need to better for maternal health. As someone who's been through medical training in the system for 20 years, why is it that maternal health is so not understood, ignored six weeks and off you go? I think it is because of that gap that exists. As we said, you know, so often we speak about this gender health gap. and already even for a lot of women's health conditions it's only now that we're speaking more about it we're putting more money into funding like endometriosis yeah absolutely endometriosis, agnomyosis even perimenopause and menopause compared to where we were 20 years ago it's incredible that we're speaking more about it we're learning more about it but women have had periods since the beginning of being women it's not something that's new but when it comes to maternal health there's even less research less clinical trials less investment into understanding what is the needs of a mum's body what is she going through physiologically what is her biology like because it is different it is completely different i find it fascinating you know a lot of the time we joke yesterday in clinic i had a mum who came in oh she came in for a six-week check the beautiful wee baby uh and i love seeing wee babies because i'm just like can I get a wee cuddle um so she hands over the baby to me just because she had sling she had a bag she had all this stuff going on and I could just feel it taking me back to those when it takes you a day to get ready to get out to the doctor for that six-week check and it's the first time that you've maybe done the car seat and the whole thing and I remember walking in sweating being like I'm here yeah yeah yeah I completely I remember it so well and in that moment you just want somebody to go it's all right take your time yes you know I got you and so yesterday that's what was going on she was like I'm so sorry this sling and I was like take your time I'll have a wee cuddle with your baby and it was just beautiful but then just as she was leaving I was like oh you've forgotten your bag and she went oh baby brain and we had a little bit of a smile about it and I was like oh my brain's like that as well like and I don't even have a baby at the moment and we joke about these things right but there's an actual real reason Like even when we are pregnant and after childbirth, MRI studies show now that we actually, a mum's brain goes through structural changes.

25:16You know, we are more tuned to the areas of our brain that are responsible for empathy, social cognition, you know, attachment. All of these areas, they change. We are rewired. It's not something that is, you know, that we should minimize. No, it's actually phenomenal, isn't it? It's phenomenal. It is biological. this adaptation is there to help us become more tuned to our baby's needs and to strengthen bonding and when you add into that as soon as you become a mum it's your stress response and nervous system completely changes as well so it affects that our stress response is that we become more hyper vigilant we are constantly scanning for danger we want to make sure that our babies are fine all the time and so many mums come in they go i just feel like i'm always on i was like we are

26:04Zoe:And those intrusive thoughts start coming in. Intrusive thoughts come in. You're like, are they breathing okay? Are they all right? And then chuck into that what modern motherhood does. Everything that's coming at us a million miles an hour. We weren't designed to deal with all of that. But for whatever reason, we haven't given space, grace, funding into learning more about exactly what's going on there. And therefore women are just moving through the days going, I don't know why I'm so tired all the time. And just collapsing in a heap at the end of the day. Often thinking that it's their fault.

26:37Yeah.

26:38Zoe:That's the thing that just I say until I'm blue in the face. It's like, it's not your fault. It's hard because it is. You're not doing anything wrong. Yeah, yeah. That's exactly everything that I wanted to get across in every page of my book was that you are not alone, that you are not imagining things. Yes. That you have not failed at anything. Like there is real reasons for why you're failing. and then lots of spaces, you know, what you can do about it, how you can access the help for it, the language that you can use in order to get the help that you need. Because it's the book that I didn't have at the very beginning.

27:13After that initial period, I was just like, where do I get help? What do I do? And each stage I was like, why am I still finding this challenging? And I think that Instagram portrays at the best of times what a beautiful, easy, oz motherhood can look like. none of us really connect with that it's not aesthetically beautiful a lot of the time it's messy it's chaotic a lot of days you're just surviving uh but there's there's a real sense of comfort that comes from when mothers say that out loud yeah and share that yeah thank god you too because you always look so put together and you're like oh my gosh that's crazy yeah uh you know uh just before we sat down I was telling you that I was trying to go who's doing pick up today chaos going on in the whatsapps because you're constantly on uh but i think that there is no such thing as perfect motherhood uh i don't think perfect exists in any space but certainly with motherhood um it's it's it's a ride and it's got lots of ups and downs but what we tend to share a lot of the times all the ups and then for some reason we tend to shy away or feel embarrassed or guilty or ashamed of admitting that we're struggling in bits.

28:27Zoe:How did you find that? You said that you had birth trauma, which is sadly like really common. It's common. And postnatal depression. Yeah. And as a GP, how did that feel for you? Did you find it easy to identify that's what was going on? Did you feel shame to start with? How did you process that? It's really difficult because I think a lot of the time people think well if you're a doctor surely you can pick up all the signs and you know what to do you don't you're just human and you're vulnerable and you're very exposed and you're learning on the job and our babies sadly don't come with a manual and everyone's circumstances are different and so birth trauma is very common not always you know does it need to be as extreme as as you know being in intensive care but trauma is so personal so trauma to one woman will be very different to trauma to another yeah and it could be that you were very frightened during birth that you felt very isolated during birth that you had a tear or um you didn't understand what was going on maybe your baby was born and there was issues and and they needed urgent medical help or whatever it is but trauma especially around childbirth is something that's not spoken about enough uh and not enough support is is given to that uh and certainly for me it's there was lots of feelings of what did I do wrong was it was it my fault you know what's wrong with me because the mum space particularly is full of comparing despairs and especially if yours hasn't gone to the plan that you had there can be the sense of well how what did I do wrong to deserve this?

30:17And it can affect things like bonding. It can affect your relationships. For me, certainly, I didn't see my baby for a week. So when I met him, I imagined the first time meeting my baby to be the most magical moment on earth. I was, you know, tubes coming out of me, a body that was grossly swollen. And my first question when I came around to consciousness was where's my baby like where's my baby but even in that moment I was like oh why is it not coming like what what is wrong here and and then you started to beat yourself up because you think you're broken you know and it took me a long time like healing wasn't it was wasn't linear it was very challenging not just physically to try and find the strength and rebuild all the bits of my body that felt I'd just been completely and utterly traumatized but also I think mentally it was a really dark time I just felt very alone and disconnected and sad and I loved my baby but I just remember the thought of being left alone with him was just terrifying and I had to I moved in with my mum because I just needed mum I was living in London at the time but when he was born I just six weeks in I was like I just need my mum and my husband's like right let's move and I moved in with my mum and it's funny isn't it because at different stages even when you're you just want your mum you just want your mum and there's only sometimes it's just your mum that you can be the most exposed and vulnerable with and you know you're changing your baby's nappies whilst your mum's helping you with your wounds and you're just like oh this is not how I imagined it but I look back now and I just think whilst I wouldn't wish that experience on anybody for me it was a real pivotal moment because it's what made me step into this world of maternal health and why it matters and everything I do is is centered around that any mum that comes in to see me I'm like I have got you uh and I mean it because I felt all of it and I know what it feels like when you're sat there with a child that you love so much and despite doing everything you think why am i still not feeling like i'm enough and the thing is you are enough you're the only thing that matters to your child but you need to also just give yourself that love and space and grace uh and and that's where back then is when all the little notes for the mother load started just would sit there and write and just write and what would I want to say to a mum going through this right now what would I what would I want her to know and and then over the years it's just built and built of like little conversations with other mums and things I'm seeing at work and diving deep into the science of what motherhood biology looks like and that's what I wanted was just this book to be the one I wish I had but also now I'm like this is my way of speaking to any mum that's about to have a baby has had a baby it's for even like my mum picked up the book and it was so emotional getting her to well seeing her read it for the first time but she just went through and she was like oh yes back pain that started when you were born and it's just like oh god yes yeah i you know the whole incontinence she was like she's like a perimenopause and then it was interesting she's like we didn't even have a word for that yes you know she was like really good that you're talking about that and it was just so many bits that are so relevant to her right now because of course she's still a mum she's still growing she's still changing and she's still dealing with some of the effects that have happened but her body is very different as a result of what she went through 43 years ago when she first had me you know it's mad it's mad isn't it well I just I want I read

34:05Zoe:it last night and I I want everyone to read it and have a copy because I think on those days when perhaps you don't feel ready to go to the gp or you don't want to call a friend i think people will find a lot of comfort yeah in the words i wanted every page to be as if you've got your own gp best friend that is how it feels you've definitely achieved that i want to finish by asking a few quick fire questions but they're not that quick fire they're actually quite deep if your first time pregnant self was sat here what would you and you could say a few things to her what would you say to her just enjoy today enjoy today enjoy the way that your body's feeling today and and stop worrying about what's going to happen you've got zero control absolutely zero control on what's going to happen next but what you have right now is you've got your little baby there inside you and just breathe into it oh that's beautiful what is something that you used to value before motherhood that just doesn't feel important to you anymore what I used to value before motherhood you just don't value anymore doesn't feel important just so many

35:29I think what other people think what other people think of me or what other people think of how I do things or what I do I feel like

35:41it's been very liberating becoming a mum and it's everything that I wished, like lots of things I do with them now I just wished I could have done back then as a kid even so I just feel I've been very liberated and I just don't think anymore of like what does anybody think of me what you know I used to really really worry about pleasing other people and then motherhood came along and actually the only two people I really want to be happy all the time are my children the only likes and loves and comments that really matter are from them and how I show up in every space is I always think how would this be perceived for my children and that's it so yeah something I used to do a lot that I very much let go of is that

36:30Zoe:I love that, me too you still have time anymore I'm like give less shit oh my god yeah zero bucks and the last one is if you could give just one gift maybe it's your book to all mothers in the world what would it be and why? yeah it really would be my book I feel like my book every stage that I've written it it has been speaking to all the mums yet to be to the mum that I was but it's also to my daughter for one day should she become a mum and it's got everything that I just feel we need to understand about who we are why we matter that we matter and that everything's going to be okay that we've got this that's beautiful thank you and so the book is out on the 4th of June yes I encourage everyone to go to amazon or wherever you get your books and and grab a copy grab to grab a copy for you and a friend yes oh thank you that was the episode i hoped you loved it if you did please make sure you subscribe and i will see you next time