Emma Grede: "Your kids don't need you to be their everything"

0:00It's been one of the single biggest unlocks of my life that I made a decision that the only standards I needed to live up to as a mother were my own. After my first kid, I just felt completely exhausted. And so I just decided that there must be a better way. Motherhood is teaching me. Don't like be living in this place of kind of guilt and fear and frustration. You can't have it all, right? No, you've got to have the trade-offs. Do you have those guilt feelings? Where do you put them? I don't make my decisions based on that. I make my decisions based on my vision. I am not here to parent my husband and my kids.

0:38You're a partner, not a parent. But I do think we've hit a place where parenting has gone bananas. What lesson keeps repeating for you? That is the most important question that you can ask yourself as a woman. Hello and welcome to Mother Kind. It is me, your host, Zoe Blaskey. Nutrition's Women's Supplements. My guest today is Emma Greed. Emma is the co-founder of Skims and Good American, a shark on Shark Tank, a dragon on Dragon's Den and a mother of four. She is also the author of her new book, Start With Yourself, which has sparked a global conversation about women's ambition. But in this conversation, I wanted to know about Emma the mother, her matrescence how she deals with guilt how her own childhood has informed who she is today what kind of parent she is how she manages the mental load with her partner who's also a CEO I wanted to know if she holds the same ambition for her kids as she does for herself and how she makes decisions about her priorities without overthinking if she's a good enough mother all the time.

1:46Emma is someone who is unapologetically her. She knows who she is. She knows what she wants. She knows the type of mother she is and she has a very clear vision for her life and she goes for it. Obviously, not all of us want Emma's vision. That isn't the point of this conversation. The point is that Emma says you have to have a vision for who you want to be, what you want, so that you don't get lost in the opinions and the shoulds and the pressures of others. Let's just say I learned a lot. Before we get to it, can you do me a quick favour and subscribe to Motherkind? I've actually never spent a penny marketing this podcast.

2:29It has been grown by you, our community, supporting it and sharing it. So please subscribe and share this episode with someone you think needs to hear it today. Here it is.

2:40I feel just such a mix of emotions sat in front of you. I'm so excited. Honestly, I'm so happy to be here. I couldn't think of a better way to spend like my afternoon. Emma, I absolutely adore the new book, Star of Yourself. And there were so many quotes that just viscerally hit me. And there was one which brought me to tears. No way. Yeah. Oh, good. And you said, well, you're like, which one was it? Yes, my kids need me, but they also need a parent who is fully expressed. Because that is so countercultural to what we are taught it means to be a parent. It's so anti everything that we're told that we have to stay small and guilty and we have to micromanage their lives.

3:31how did you get with such conviction and clarity that that was going to be the philosophy by which you were going to raise your children well first of all I love that you start there because to me it's been one of the single biggest unlocks of my life that I made a decision that the only standards I needed to live up to as a mother were my own and it was really difficult to come to like what is it that I believe in like what's my own parenting philosophy because we are bombarded by so many messages and so much information. And it's really difficult to make a distinction between what have I seen?

4:09What is that happening in the media and on social? And what do I actually want to do? And what do I believe? And what happens is you kind of like, I don't know what it's been like for you, but after you have a baby, you kind of get consumed. You're taken on this journey and you're like, is that me? Do I need to do that? Then you meet other mothers and you see other parents and you hear other things. and I just felt completely exhausted like after my first kid by month three or four I was like I'm not playing these games I actually really want to go back to work I actually am more ambitious than before I even had him and what's interesting is the ambition hasn't stopped I've got more ambitious for every single kid that I've had and I have four of them now and so I just decided that there must be a better way a less exhausting way and when I thought about the type of mother that I want to be because look just like all mums I love my kids I think they're the best thing since I spread but it's like I have other stuff to do I have other goals that have nothing to do with them and what I kind of want to push against is this idea that you are selfish if you put yourself first what I believe your kids need is like a lot of love and a lot of attention and somebody that they can rely on but they don't need you to usher them through absolutely every single thing in their lives and all that does is depletes you it depletes your energy and you end up feeling resentful which then has the the opposite impact on your kids so for me I was like I'm gonna try to be the type of mum I want to be and I'm gonna show my kids what you're supposed to do with life and hopefully we'll all be fine and I reckon we are in those first few months did you ever get to that moment where you were like what does this look like for me because I think that is such a almost universal experience for mums right where they're like this doesn't feel how I thought it was going to feel I feel completely different how did you figure that out well you know listen I I have written this book start with yourself because I felt like it was really needed because I felt so much of the messaging that's out there is the opposite of the way I felt.

6:20And I felt very lost after I had my first kid because I thought, am I on my own? Am I the only one who feels like this? Does everybody want to just sit and stare at the baby and like go to like mummy and me classes and like forget all the things that they thought before? And of course, I learned that very quickly that wasn't true, but I didn't really find like my way and my philosophy. And so I talk so much this book about holding a vision for yourself and I think that you have to hold a vision for your career and for your work but you also have to hold a vision for the type of woman that you want to be and that includes the type of mother that you want to be and so very quickly I started going like what's important to me like I think it's really important I love waking my kids up in the morning it's that like first chit chat of the day I'm like when they're in their PJs you know and it's like it's such a lovely moment like going in I'm like wakey wakey lemon baking.

7:13I open the blinds and I have a little moment with them. But you know, like school runs for me aren't possible because of the way that I work. And you know, being super present at the school isn't possible. I like to have a moment at dinner time, but I'm not there every single night for my kids because I have to travel and I have other things to do. So for me, it was about really figuring out like, what do I deem to be the most important? And I'm going to just live up to that. Those are the things that I'm going to do. And I'm going to create my own set of principles that govern the way I want to parent.

7:43And everything else, I say no to. Everything else, I don't allow to kind of burden me with guilt because it's just not a productive way to move through life. This is why we need this manual. Honestly, though, because you say it, that you say a quote, you know, mothers are killing themselves. Killing, killing, killing themselves. I don't know any mom who isn't exhausted, that isn't super thinly spread. But more than that, like, that stuff makes you really miserable. When you think that you're failing, right? It's like, I'm not doing good at this. You know, it's like, I should be here. I should be there.

8:17It's like, I don't want that feeling. And I think that when you start to, you know, when you have a vision, if you miss something, you're like, that's okay. Because that's in line with what I've set out to do. But when you're running from pillar to post and you haven't made those decisions, you feel like those decisions are seemingly made for you. That's when it starts to get to you. That's when it eats away at you. So I think that you have to be really clear. Like, what is it that I care about the most? What is important to our family? What's important to our kids? I'm never missing something that's important to my children.

8:46I ain't turning up for the mum's coffee or the school gala. I don't care. Like, I just don't. And I think once you say that out loud, you free yourself. And you're like, you know what? There are mums that do care. Great. Then they should do that. And I should do things that make sense for me. But don't, like, be living in this place of kind of guilt and fear and frustration. Because that isn't good for your kids either. That's not an example that you want to set for them to live unfulfilled, to live resentful, to live in a place that's like not meeting their full potential. We would never, ever tell our kids to do that.

9:17So why would we choose that for ourselves? Yeah, because we're always modeling to our kids, right? You're always modeling. I also think that about getting up and going to work every day because I think I'm showing my kids what it means to live up to your full potential and, you know, live up to your dreams. And so when I think about you cannot write a book about women in business without talking about family. You cannot write a book in business without talking about kids. And listen, there are plenty of women out there that choose not to have children and they're happy just to be, you know, like good aunties.

9:51And that's fine. But when you decide to have children and if you're thinking about having children, that is something that requires a lot of thought and a lot of planning. And so I just try to be honest about what that's meant for me. I think it's that honesty that I love about you and maybe too honest millions more no because we don't we don't we don't say it and you talk about so many stories in the book where you're sat on these panels and people are sort of talking about work-life balance and being everything and it's like no you you can't have it all right you gotta have the trade-offs you know the trade-offs are so important and I think what's interesting is that people always think no I make trade-offs there's all this stuff I don't want to do but that's not the point the trade-offs are always the things that you do want to do but it's picking and choosing and what I've learned now at the age of 43 is that your life is in seasons right like and you don't get everything that you want all the time and there are moments to kind of lean in to work there are moments to lean into family and what you have to get comfortable with is the ebb and flow sometimes you have to be all in typically after you've had a baby you're like that's a moment where you need to be all in on the parenting And then there might be some place like, you know, when your career takes off, like we were talking about your breakthrough episode, right?

11:05You need to double down, lean in, do the podcast, get more episodes. You might not have the 400 % time for your family at that moment. But that doesn't mean you care less. Two things can be true at once. You can at once be a really attentive, like mindful mother that cares the most about her kids and want the biggest career and to make money and to be successful and to want power all at the same time. And I think that what we've done is somehow kind of uncoupled the idea of both. No, you don't get both at the same time, but there are seasons and moments for it. And all you've got to do is learn to move into the rhythm of your life and choose your choice.

11:43don't let anyone dictate to you because I think what happens more often than not is that people decide what we should be when. And I just refuse to subscribe to it. And in my life, it's like, why would you work so hard to have an amazing career? And then your moment comes and you're like, sorry, like I'm busy with the kids over here. That's just not honest. It's like, sometimes you have to do things differently. And by the way, that's what dads are for. That's what other caretakers are for. Like I just use all the help around me And I don't think that I have to be every single thing to my kids.

12:17I don't believe it's my job to be their everything. And you know, the thing that I want to talk to you about that undermines that is guilt. All the time. Right? Yeah. Guilt that I'm having a moment in my career, right? Of course, then you feel guilty. I'm not at the pick up. Other side too, right? Guilt that I've got a sick kid and I can't be at that meeting. I can't show up for that colleague. Do you have those those guilt feeling? where do you put them what do you do with them it's a great question and it's the reason that I talk so much about managing emotions in this book because I know I love that section that was like one of my favorite sections I'm gonna write it was so easy because I was like I'm gonna write a book that is about building a brand and running a company and leadership and career and then I was like hang about Emma why are you able to do all of that stuff and the reason that I'm able to be successful in that side of my life is because I figured out that I cannot make my decisions based on how I feel.

13:13So of course I have fear. And of course there's loads of guilt in my life, but I don't make my decisions based on that. I make my decisions based on my vision and how I want to live and what type of life I want and how I'm thinking about my future. I am not going to allow a momentary fleeting feeling of guilt to flash up and then decide what I'm going to do, because it is a really bad way to make decisions. And it's a slippery slope. Yeah, you've got to have that vision, right? It starts there. I love that you - With yourself, by the way. Great title. I love that you talk about sadness in the book.

13:50Oh, yeah. Because I experienced a lot of sadness. When I got to that section, I was like, sad. I'm sorry. No, I was happy that you were sad. Totally. Because it's the truth, right? And I think that, again, as women, if we avoid the idea that we get sad, And again, I think so much of this is about like what we allow people to see and the culture that we're in. And, you know, I sort of live my life. I always talk about this idea of the rule of thirds. And it is a really simple one because we shouldn't be happy all the time. That isn't the human condition that you're supposed to be like a range of emotions.

14:25And if you are doing something big and you're chasing a dream, you will only be happy about a third of the time. And then this other third, you'll feel indifferent. And the final third, you will feel shit. And that's just the truth. But if we don't understand the crappy feelings, like when we're super down, it's really hard to enjoy the highs. But that is normal. Like we all have days where nothing goes right, where our kids are sad, where, you know, and listen, it's just normal. Your kid has, somebody once said to me, you know, it's such a good quote. They said, you know, you're only ever as happy as your most unhappy child.

14:58If you've ever had a kid who's been bullied or going through it. Or not wanting to go to school. Not wanting to go to school, starting high school right and it's like no one's sitting with me and you're like oh you know like it's the most terrible terrible feeling right with your eldest with gray i had or i mean you go for a range of things like with kids right but at the end of the day you've really got to understand like how fleeting all of that stuff and in the same way we talk to our kids and we say that's a momentary moment in time this too shall pass that we have to speak to ourselves like that And so I like to be really, really honest with myself.

15:35But also I like to be my own best champion. And I really think about that so much, like the way that I speak to myself, the way I treat myself, the way I prioritize myself. And again, as a mother of four, a lot of people have a problem in me saying I'm right at the top of my to do list. Is that selfish or is it just sensible? because if I feel good and I'm full and I'm relaxed and I'm well rested and I'm happy, listen, my whole family's benefiting from that. My husband will tell you, I want you to continue doing that. But I think this idea that we should like give, give, give, give, give to everyone and be the last thing that we think about, it's just like, it's not sustainable.

16:13What a broken model. That's right, it's not selfish, it's self-sustaining. You're someone who I suspect from the moment you open your eyes you are giving people aren't going to come to you in your businesses because it's everything's going right right no they only come to me with problems a series of problems all day long so i imagine you are giving out energy and yet i've just met you now you are the most one of the most energetic vibrant energies that i've ever had the privilege to sit with that's so kind thank you yeah i square the two square the two for me how are you giving all this out what is going on and And yet you are a human battery of energy.

16:55You know, here's the thing. I feel so lucky and so much gratitude. And, you know, I always think of myself as like that Oprah generation. You know, I like well and truly drunk the Kool-Aid of like the gratitude journals and thinking and focusing about on what's good in my life. And I think that coming from where I come from, you know, it's like I was born in East London. I was raised by a single mom. I'm the eldest of four. so I really grew up like looking after free kids you've been a mum a very long time for a very long time and I'm naturally very maternal so I do give but it's like I've seen all the sides of life and I really understand how much privilege I have at this point and I also know that it's really important for me to speak my truth and I have an awareness about what I'm giving out doesn't mean to say that I walk around happy all day best energy I mean talk to my team for two minutes They'll tell you, right?

17:49It's like it goes up and down. But I do believe in life that you give what you get. And you have to bring your full self into situations. And you have to decide to be happy. You have to decide to be ambitious. And so I have made those decisions. And I think that it's really, really important that I try to, like, give that out. But also give it back. Because I think where we are in the world right now, and this is an idea that I'm absolutely obsessed with, I really believe that we need more women in positions of power. And as women, we have a responsibility to give it to each other. So when I find a little unlock in my life, I'm not gatekeeping.

18:28I'm the opposite. I have the opposite of the scarcity mindset. I'm like, if I've got something, I'm going to let you know how I got it so you can get it too. Like that to me is so important. And so I really think about the way I come into a room, the way that I treat people. And let me tell you, the world is so small. even on this like as I go around promoting my book I've met three journalists that used to work for me in one way shape or form and so it's like thank god you're nice and you're energetic because it all comes back round but I've like I've been around long enough to know that the way you treat yourself and the way you speak to yourself and the way you go about things in your life that will decide your day so when I say start with yourself it's like start with your own energy start with what you're putting out and then figure out what starts to come back to you because I know you're 100 % sure you get what you give.

19:16It's so true. Do your kids model that? Do you see them walking into rooms, greeting everyone, high-fiving people on the school run? Do you know what? It's like I look at my kids and I'm like, who's going to be the most like me? And I'm 100 % sure, like my youngest daughter, Lake, she just like has it. She has that energy. She also has the underbelly to it, right? She's like the most like fierce little kid in the world. But that's a part of my personality because as much as I write about guilt and I write about fear, I also write about anger because those your emotions are not sort of like single fold.

19:54Right. Yeah. You can't selectively choose the ones you want and not the ones you don't want. Always an underbelly. And so I think I'd be lying if I said, you know, there haven't been parts of my personality that I've also had to tune out and tune down and do a lot of work on. But that's what I try to do in this book is to be super honest. I talk about all my failures. I talk about all my flaws. I talk about all the work that I've done. I talk about all the things that I'm still trying to work on. Because at the end of the day, to present anything but somebody that is still in motion and still trying to figure things out would just be a lie.

20:27And I never want to make other women feel like I've got it all worked out. No, I'm just telling you what has worked for me. And hopefully some of that works for you too. But let's be honest about this stuff. because the more honest we are together and the more that we work together as women, because women are best in community, like I know the better it gets for all of us. And I love how you talk about allo parents. Oh, yeah. Not many people know that phrase. No, not many people know that. I write that in my book and when I got to her, I was like, yes, Emma. I get it, it's so true. Why is it so important?

21:03Because that feels like, that idea of raising children in community feels so central to your philosophy, right? Well, here's the thing. I believe that you've got to take in life and in business every little bit of help that you can get. Yes. Right. We used to raise kids. Why do so many women struggle with it, though? You know, because I think that there is an element of shame attached to ever asking for help or ever seemingly like not knowing something, not having it all sorted out. And that's why I can I'm like, I don't have this. I rely on other people. It takes an army. Like the idea that I would have all these companies and be successful and have kids.

21:38It's like I have so much help. I have so much help in my home and in my, you know, life with my kids. And that is not how I was raised. You know, like I said, my mum was single. We always had either an auntie or a babysitter that would get us or we were alone after school, which is why I had such a role like in parenting my younger sisters. And so I think that this idea of how we are all raised and the idea of being in community and needing people, Like you have to drop that shame because who doesn't need help? Everybody needs, you know, like. And here's the thing. I also feel like that really helped me as a kid.

22:16Like all of the women that were around me, I saw so many different sides, like from neighbours to aunties. I saw my mum leave the house every day and go to work. And all of those versions of womanhood were really pivotal to the type of woman that I've become now. but you know I just think that we you know what do you call it like um closed mouth closed mouths don't get fed and so you have to be the one that says what you need and what you want and it's a little bit like in the workplace or with you know careers and ambition like you have to be clear about your intentions hiding behind soft ambition or being the person that's going to solve it for the whole family does not make people want to come and help you it does not make people want to come and give you a pay rise when you've just got all of this stuff happening inside your head and seemingly you're the one who's going to sort it all out perfection is something that happens on the outside and i'm like who for who like who do we need to be perfect for i just never felt like i needed that so i'm like i i need help please i'm like somebody come over here and help me do this thing how do you decide in parenting because i think this is something a lot of ambitious successful women grapple with what bits to outsource and what bits will never be outsourced I love that question.

23:29I think this comes down to your vision and your principles, right? Like, I love putting my kids to bed. I love cooking also, but I don't get home in time to make dinner at a certain time. So it's like, you got to take the bits that you really enjoy and that are really important to you and your family and that hold value and outsource everything else. Like, do you need to be the person that does absolutely everything for your kids? Are they going to think less of you? Let me tell you, my mum went out the door probably at 7.30 in the morning and did not come back till 7.30, 8 at night. She's still my mum.

24:05She's still the person that raised me. What's your relationship like today? You know, my relationship with my mum is so interesting because it's like we joke that my mum's the dad, I'm the mum, and we have three kids together. Yes. So it's like I'm what they now call, you know, like a parented kid. Yeah, parentified child. Parentified, thank you. Say that for me. a parentified child. But you know, I really think about that relationship as being something that was forged because of our circumstances. And I don't blame my mum for that. She needed to get to work to keep the lights on. And she did that.

24:43And she did it well. And she did the best with what she had. And at the end of the day, that's all you can do. You know, I don't think your kids will grow up resenting you for doing the best that you can. And I think that every family is really different but my point of view is that whatever you can afford whatever is within your means that you don't necessarily have to use your own hands your own energy to do let it be done i also think the other thing is you know i'm really lucky because i have a husband he's swedish and i've never ever once imagined that i am the lead parent i'm really not that is so rare It's so rare.

25:24I refuse. Normally it happens with this thing called default, right? Or she-fault. Yeah, yeah. But it's like, whose fault is that? Yeah. Maybe it's the mother's because maybe you naturally took the lead and maybe you told him, like, you should hold the baby like this and you need to change the nappy like this. And the way that we make sandwiches is like this. I'm like, let him make a bad sandwich. Let him make a bad sandwich. I don't give a shit. Do you know what I mean? It's like you can't micromanage your way through somebody else helping you. Let it go. It's not that deep. Do you know what I mean?

25:52Like that's like, that's really what I think. Cause if you want help, you've also got to take the help in the shape the help comes. 100%. So I was like, I used to watch my husband and I used to think, oh my God, is he really going to put that outfit on my child? You know, I'm from East London. We like to look fresh and I'd be like, the whole thing would just not be working. I was like, they're dressed. We're walking out the house. Just let it go. You know, it's like maybe, you know, he would be more likely to put on a movie or put a kid in front of an iPad than I would be. I'm like, you know what?

26:22He's got it. And I have a book and a cup of tea in my hand. Just let it go. You know, what's to say that my way's right and his way's wrong? And so I don't want to micromanage my husband. I'm uninterested in that. And I let him be the type of parent by doing cyst on 50-50. And of course, it's not like always, you know, half and half. Sometimes like right now, he has the kids. He's doing the whole thing. And other times I have to lean in. But like when you look at it and you zoom out, it's not, I am not here to parent my husband and my kids. yes you're a partner not a parent let him do it i'm like let him get it wrong do you think culturally because in sweden it's very different culture right absolutely right about that it really is the culture in sweden is such a matriarchal society yes and you see it you see the dads in the cafes and listen it's a much smaller country the the way the society is structured in terms of like maternity leave is that a couple can take their maternity leave split and they basically get fully paid, right?

27:22So we know that in most countries, certainly in the UK and even worse in America, that isn't the setup. But at the end of the day, when we start talking about starting with yourself, it's like, that means you have to look internally. Like, what are you doing? What did you allow your partner to get on with? What are you happy to outsource? Are you like trying to control everything, every interaction? Now I know that that has been me. And in the beginning I was so, you know, when you've got that first little precious baby, you're like everything needs to be just so and then I was like but does it I actually would rather just take the break like I would rather have my husband involved and also make sure that I'm like sort of training these kids to fall over and go dad as quickly and as soon as they would go mum right that is you that is you either swoop in and be the first one or like you let that be dad too you let that be your partner too and I think those things are really important and that comes from us and i love how you talk about you know obviously not micromanaging jess but also not micromanaging your kids don't have time don't have time i don't think it's my business i i do this i do you yeah oh no i refuse you know i'm a bit of a micromanager with the kids no and listen i feel like that is that's just like what's happening in the culture i remember the like not too long ago a mum wrote to me and she was like our kids are in an argument and a i think they should go and see like the school counselor and b i think we should like arrange like a sorry note from one kid to the other and you know like a bit of an intervention and i was like or we can let them figure it the fuck out themselves because i don't have time for this nor do i think you should have time for it and don't you think they should just figure that out like that's part of becoming a person we're in this weird intense parenting but you know what motherhood didn't get harder the expectations got harder yes and i think that you have to again decide well what are the expectations?

29:15Because you're literally training your kids to need you so much because you are micromanaging. Like at the end of the day, if you are doing the entirety of your schedule, of your kid's schedule, and ferrying them from pillar to post and making sure they have everything that they need in their bag and then like asking them like what they had, you know, once you open the packed lunchbox from lunch. Like if you do all of that, how is that kid ever figuring out what it takes to do it themselves. You're basically setting yourself up to have a kid who's like, what next, mum? Like, I just, I don't have time for it.