Frankie Bridge: How to Stay Ambitious After Kids Without the Mum Guilt

0:00This is a paid message from GoFundMe. Meet Juan Naula. When a son was hospitalized for a viral infection, Juan started a GoFundMe to pay for medical expenses.

0:10Zoe:It was 5K to pay the bill for my son, and I needed only 22 hours. It was amazing. People really trust on GoFundMe. How did Juan raise$5 ,000 in less than a day? He posted a short video on GoFundMe, telling his story in 30 seconds. 30 seconds, be specific, be quick, and tell what are you going to be using the funds for. I was nervous to do it because it doesn't feel okay to ask money, but you shouldn't be nervous. Sometimes you just have to do it and see the results. We were able to save my son's life. Thanks to GoFundMe that we still have my son with us. Start your GoFundMe today at GoFundMe.com.

0:52That's GoFundMe.com GoFundMe.com This message reflects one person's experience It doesn't really stop the guilt I know they're fine with him but every time I leave I feel bad that I should be there

1:08Zoe:I tried not working for a bit when I had my first daughter and it just, like I felt just so low For me, it wasn't enough I did need to go to work because I'm passionate about what I do and I love what I do It really took me a long time to realise that that's not necessarily what success looks like. With the boys and work, I have to have a why. I'm going to leave these people that I love more than anything at home. It's got to be for a bloody good reason. Yeah. Welcome to this episode of Motherkind. We are proudly sponsored by Wild Nutrition's women's supplements. It is me, your host Zoe, and this is the show that is about you, the woman behind the mother.

1:52Zoe:Success can look really different, can't it, depending on the season of life you're in. And before children, it might be about climbing the ladder or chasing the next opportunity. But after becoming a mum, so many of us start asking different questions. What really matters? What am I willing to sacrifice? How do I build a career that fits the life that I want rather than the other way around? And this episode, I'm joined by the brilliant Frankie Bridge, everyone's favourite Saturday, for a really honest conversation about ambition, identity and motherhood. We talk about how becoming a mum has actually made her braver, why having a strong why helps her set boundaries around work and family life and what she's learned from continually reinventing herself through her career.

2:36We also talk openly about mental health, from her experiences with depression and anxiety

2:41Zoe:at a time when those conversations were far less common to losing confidence in her singing despite years of success and why she's now finding the courage to pick it back up again above all this is a conversation about letting go of perfection questioning those impossible standards that we place on ourselves and remembering that it's never too late to reconnect with the part of ourselves that we've put on hold i loved this conversation and i think you will too if you enjoyed it please do subscribe i cannot tell you the difference that it makes to me and to the show when you do that and share it with someone that you think will enjoy it here it is

3:23Zoe:frankie i'm buzzing i've wanted to speak to you for so long thank you for being here thanks for having me we're in the middle of the summer holidays praise be to us all deep breaths what's your childcare juggle work guilt download to us yeah uh you know what I'm lucky because my husband Wayne doesn't work so he's at home with the kids but it doesn't really stop the guilt that's kind of like my biggest thing is like I know they're fine with him and actually he's the fun parent anyway yeah you know he takes some fishing and theme parks and whatever yeah he is fun because also he enjoys all of that he hates sitting around at home and not doing anything but every time I leave I feel bad that I should be there like even today my son was like what are you doing today it's like oh I'm going into work I'm doing a podcast oh you're not at home today no what time will you be home and you know it's just like that constant thing every day um and I did actually say to my youngest the other day I was like just because you have he has eight weeks off I was like I still have to work I don't have that time off um I was like I'm gonna try and have as much time off as I can but work doesn't stop when school stops so it's just a stupid system right I mean who designed this oh I know but you know what it does make me realize like when I was younger both of my parents worked and every six weeks holidays I used to get put into tennis camp and I hate tennis I even still hate tennis I hated it then I hate it now and I could never understand why they always put me in this blooming tennis camp and now I'm like oh now I understand yeah okay you both had to go to work and there was nothing else for me to do so I used to go to my grandma's and but my mum didn't work she was just fed up of you yeah but I find that's fair like it's such a long time whether you work or you don't work it's such a long time every day to think of something to do we are of that generation where we feel like we have to keep them constantly entertained you know when I was younger my parents would be like go play in the garden and I would make up games in the garden or whatever and play on my own fine whereas now it's like we feel like we have to constantly entertain them and keep them happy keep them snacked up and their water bottles full and snacks weren't a thing for me there were no snacks I would never get picked up from school with a snack now I get like genuinely quite anxious if I've forgotten a snack because I know my six-year-old is gonna release her wrath onto me in the playground in front of everyone I'm like I know I'll be like I'll come I've come straight from work so I haven't got you yeah but we'll pick one up on the way don't worry don't worry yeah it's pathetic so what do you do I think so many people are going to relate to that just that feeling I'm the same like here today they're with my mom it's like I want to be there I'm not do you just accept that that's part of it do you say you're something to yourself like how do you kind of move through that I think I think of it quite practically like it doesn't go away it's still there that guilt is there every day um but I think I just accept that I have I have to work in order for them to do the things that they want to do and for me as well like mentally and you know we all have to pay bills we all have a life to pay for and that is just life you know I had two parents that like I said both worked full time so I grew up in that environment and I've worked since I was 12 so I don't really know any different and I had a whole week at home last week which was lovely but by the end of it I was like desperate to come into London and do some work exactly the same I tried not working for a bit when I had my first daughter and it just like I felt just so low but then you get the sort of added guilt of like why is this little baby that I've wanted so much and I adore more than anything not it's not that she's not enough it's just that I always needed a purpose outside of that yeah I just have always been the sort of person I think like you that's I just love working yeah I was exactly the same I'd been in by the time I had Parker my first that I was in my second pop group you know I was I don't know 24 and already I was like you know what you know I've had two successful careers already I could like Wayne and I had the conversation and it was like you know I could just have a baby and and stay at home and I don't I hate using my just because it sounds like it's like yeah the easy option it's not at all I think it's the harder it's the harder option 100 % and I was just like yeah okay like that's what I'll do and actually for me it it wasn't enough I did need to go to work and I did still because what I'm passionate about what I do and I love what I do yeah and it's just always been a huge part of me and also I think in the end I was like you know what that's not a bad thing to show them my work ethic and show them that they have to work for what they want and like I said like today coming out is like a break yeah you know it's easier this is easy compared to being at home with my 10 six-year-old fighting my god they've discovered Chinese burns this summer do you remember that from when we were kids yeah I don't love it for me every two minutes it's like how these screams and that old woman given the young one i'm like oh my god this is so intense isn't it funny though how these things come back around yeah because i was having this conversation the other day i was like how did we used to like did you used to do that thing where you'd put your friend on the end of your feet um like fly them in the air or you do that thing where you put your feet together and do that weird like yeah we were like how did we all and light as a feather stiff as a board like we all knew about them all and we all did it but we had no social media I was like isn't it weird and then it's all kind of coming back it's just still coming back so funny I mean that was childhood that's how we entertained that's how we filled six weeks we didn't need TikTok back then no simpler times yeah much simpler times and so you're you know you said you've worked since you were 12 do you find it hard to slow down you're just so so driven yeah I do and I remember after the Saturdays finished I got a new agent and I must have just been like hounding her all the time and I remember we met up for lunch and she said to me she was like you know Frank success isn't necessarily working 365 days of the year 24 7 that's not what it has to be to be successful she was like you really need to rethink how you look at your work life and I think that was a bit of an eye-opener for me because I was used to just kind of my life was in the control of everybody else you know from the age of 12 to like I can't even remember how old I was when the Saturdays finished but in my 20s and I was used to just handing that over whatever whatever day they told me what I was going to be doing I'd be working all day they told me when I'd eat when we'd have a break and when I could go on holiday and and that's not a complaint I loved it but all of a sudden I was in charge of that and to not be that busy I was like I'm failing like what am I gonna do I've become a failure now and I'm not working and blah blah blah and it really took me a long time to realize that that's not necessarily what success looks like what does it mean to you now like do you feel successful and what how do you like define it I do I think it's I mean I'm glad you do obviously you are like wildly successful since you were 12 yeah but I think it changes as time goes and like I do have to completely adjust what I think that is yeah um from time to time and you know coming from S Cup Juniors you know we didn't sales and everything numbers and everything were really large and really high because you didn't have downloads there and everything was like physical sounds yeah yeah and like um you'd be doing arenas and things like that so like then when it got to the Saturdays you could get a number one with like less than half of the amount so I think our single NSCub juniors sold like 360 ,000 say and that got us to number two and then like in the Saturdays it was like 7 ,000 that got us to number two they're like made up yeah numbers but like roughly that was like the huge difference and I kind of was like oh god that's awful like we've not done very well everyone's like no that's amazing and that has kind of continued throughout my career like even now with my new business phase the edit it's like if we do an event and 10 people show up that's 10 people that have taken their time and their money to come and do something that we've put on whereas I was like well that's rubbish because I've done Wembley Arena and you know too and that's thousands and thousands of people so I think it's like just reassessing throughout your life and whatever your job is and changing what success looks like to you for me now it's being proud of something that I have created and being able to step away and actually take in that moment whereas I don't think I've ever done that before yeah and it's so interesting that you said as you're thinking I was like that is it like we've got to just make sure that we're moving those goalposts as our lives change how did having the boys change how you thought about that you said they made you braver and more ambitious yeah they did I think they took away a lot of my anxiety because I think they I realized I couldn't control everything in life um and you know I can wrap them up in cotton wool and someone's still probably going to be mean to them and make them cry or they're going to fall over and hurt themselves you know there's only so much I can control of that and I really remember the moment that I realized that do you yeah um that's so amazing I know I think Parker had cut his lip and it was the first time I'd ever seen him bleed and it was like minuscule and it killed me I was like I was like devastated that he was bleeding but afterwards I was like you know what I couldn't have avoided that he was in like the safest space and nothing really big had happened to make it happen I think he just fell over and I was like and it just made me realize that I've been trying to control so much in my life and you just can't don't get me wrong I've still had to do a lot of therapy on that as well since but I do really realize it now and I think with the boys and work I now have to I have to have a why I have to have a strong why as to why I'm doing something whether it's it can be all three or it can be one whether it's passion and joy of something monetary reason to do it or whether it's going to move the needle if it ticks all three amazing um and that's what i tend to try and do now it has to kind of try and tick all three to make it worth not being at home i guess so true those those times where you know before kids where you would just do something for the shit of it because someone asked you to it kind of you look at your time so differently don't you it's like if i'm gonna leave these people that I love more than anything at home it's got to be for a bloody good reason yeah and it's got to be something like I said that moves the needle otherwise what are you doing what are you doing it for what's your I'm so interested and inspired by your ability to reinvent your career thank you you've done it a few times but with faves it's just like incredible tell me how that's felt and like stepping into that founder role because so many so we were talking about it's just before we press report like so many conversations having at the moment are like women are sort of age falling into careers almost like you were saying not not global pop stardom but that idea of like having it defined for you gone to school gone to uni got on a graduate scheme stayed in a job and then you're suddenly like you have kids or you know you hit 40 and you go do I even want this yeah and it feels like you've just mastered that art of that pivot it might look like that it does I've worked hard for it.

15:09I think, you know what, I think first of all, I've had to pivot quite a few times in my life from a young age. You know, I went from being at school to then being in a pop group that performed at Wembley Arena. That's crazy. With like one of the biggest pop groups.

15:23Zoe:Yeah. Wait, isn't your, is your oldest son 13 now? He will be 13 in October, yeah. Does that make you think, oh my gosh. Yeah, I'm like, no way would he be able to do that. I'm like, who would walk after you and pick up your pants? there would be no one um yeah it's wild I realized like just how young I was but I didn't feel it at the time and I was doing what I loved but you know so I had to kind of adjust my life to go into that and then that finished and I worked in a bar and I worked in a shop so that was another pivot like that was a complete change and then I ended up back in another pop group and then that was another shift and then it finished and I think I've always been aware that things end I always knew you know especially in pop groups and stuff manufactured bands or whatever you know it's going to come to an end at some point and then I guess it's deciding what you do with that and that's really difficult when it's something that you love and that you're really passionate about when that thing ends and at such a young age I remember at 16 thinking I've done what I wanted to do I'm only 16 I now have the rest of my life to figure out what I want to do next and also I felt the pressure of people look at me and expect me to be successful and everyone goes you've just achieved all of that you're 16 and then everyone asks you two words what's next yeah it's like give me a minute yeah and people don't look at it as success people look at it as failure especially when you're in the public eye and I always say this to people I'm like it's really interesting having friends and my sister who have had normal jobs you know they'll finish a job somewhere and they'll move somewhere else or they might change career and everyone's like oh cool like no one really questions it yeah whereas when you're in the public eye and i think specifically in the music industry if you then go on to do something else it's it's seen as you've failed and you couldn't do that or stay in your lane it's like well hang on a minute you were a pop star what do you what do you mean you're gonna go and do tv or yeah so i think we've faced the edit it has been that you know there have been people that i think feel a bit like stay in your lane and I have felt like imposter syndrome massively of you know I don't know a lot about business and I'm trying to figure it out as I go and actually what I've learned along the way is that's how a lot of people start same as me I just you know I started this eight years ago I had never interviewed anyone in my whole life you just learn it as you go but you do need that basis of like not I don't know if it's confidence but it's like I'm just gonna try it yeah I think you just have to give it a go and I think that's the thing that I've learned and I always say you've got to take those moments and bank them like when you're in an uncomfortable situation I went to a dinner the other day and I was so nervous about it because it was a room full of successful women and for me I'm like their businesses are so much more mature than mine they've been around for a really long time and they all really know what they're doing and I went anyway and I had the best time and they all taught me that none of them knew necessarily what they were doing and I was like okay cool and actually everyone was really welcoming and I came away and I was like okay you have to remember that when you're next feeling nervous.

18:33I write those down. Yeah really?

18:35Zoe:Oh my gosh I've got like this doc I mean I am a complete nerd but I've got this document on my phone and it's called insights and it's like when I have like an insight like that I write so that I don't and then I've got them and I can scroll back on them because otherwise I just forget yeah but stuff like that so because you're right you you know even if someone's got a 10 million pound business and they get it to 20 million they've never run a 20 million pound business so it's like at every level and every sort of stage you've got to start again and relearn isn't it and one of the women actually said that she runs an investment firm and she said you know like I'll do one investment and I thought oh that's it now everyone will take me seriously and I'll know what I'm doing or whatever.

19:13She had felt the same. And then she was like, it's no different from doing that one and a 20 million deal. She was like, it's still then that's a whole nother level. And I think it's just that's what I'm finding with faves. It's like we get to one point and I get a bit comfortable and then it's like, no, we have to push this next thing and then I'm relearning again. And I think the biggest thing that I've realised is that actually there are so many women out there that want to help each other through it. And I think we think that everyone's going to be gatekeepers and they're not you just have to ask the questions and I think if you just talk on a normal level

19:46Zoe:do you find that easy to ask for help because I struggle with that I really there's so many people like people that come on the podcast that like call me like amazing business people like call me if you're ever struggling and I never do even though I am struggling yeah I probably wouldn't no I'd probably get my business partner Leah and be like Leah do you want to send that email yeah yeah I find it really hard but I think I haven't had to do it yet um but I like to think that I would if I really needed to but I think that we should yeah yeah it's so interesting because I work upstairs in my office at home and my husband works downstairs and I hear him on the phone like all day like phoning his friends people he's met asking for favors and I'm like oh my god I'm just not doing this enough.

20:31Zoe:I think it is a female thing where it's just that like good girl, independent, head down, get on with it. Don't look like you're struggling. I was going to say, it's like you don't want people to know that you don't know it, that you don't know the answer. Yeah. And the truth is that most people don't. Yeah. They just figure it out. Yeah, it's so true. From Geico Subconscious News, I'm Tammy, Racing Thoughts, broadcasting from your brain. Tonight's top worry. If something happens to your apartment and you need to like stay in a hotel and pay for it. That would be crazy, right? Art Palpitations has more.

21:02Zoe:That would be crazy, Tammy, but you got surprisingly affordable renter's insurance through GEICO, so it could be covered, giving you peace of mind. Aw, I love a story that ends well. Next up, love stories. Are they all they're cracked up to be? It feels good to worry less. It feels good to GEICO. This is a paid message from GoFundMe. Meet Juan Naula. When his son was hospitalized for a viral infection, Juan started a GoFundMe to pay for medical expenses. It was 5k to pay the bill for my son and I need only 22 hours. It was amazing. People really trust on GoFundMe. How did Juan raise$5 ,000 in less than a day?

21:41He posted a short video on GoFundMe, telling his story in 30 seconds.

21:45Zoe:30 seconds. Be specific, be quick and tell what are you going to be using the funds for. I was nervous to do it because it doesn't feel okay to ask money, but you shouldn't be nervous. Sometimes you just have to do it and see the results. We were able to save my son's life. Thanks to GoFundMe that we still have my son with us. Start your GoFundMe today at GoFundMe.com. That's GoFundMe.com. GoFundMe.com. This message reflects one person's experience and how do you manage your mental health and your energy because i imagine it's really easy for you to either be working on faves or parenting and not finding much space for you and i think that's just a universal challenge for every kind of mom but how how do you how do you manage that i don't know i think i'm still figuring out i you know what it's funny I could go I go to the gym but I'm like I enjoy that now but I didn't and I wouldn't say that that's something that's like it is for me but I mean it's like half hour and I'm like I don't feel like that counts we can't keep saying that that counts I feel like that's the box we got ticked exactly it's another box I'm 43 you're not even 40 yet and I'm like I cannot afford to not tick that box anymore yeah no I just I need it so I'm like okay that doesn't count and actually I do find it hard like ever since I was younger if people go to me what are your hobbies and I used to be like hobby so it's got time for hobbies yeah it used to be like my least favorite question when I was 12 and it's still my least favorite my hobby is my work yeah I think if you love your work it does feel like that yeah I have recently tried to find other things um like hanging out with my friends like that is such a release for me just like laughing and just chatting rubbish.

23:38Will you do that with the boys? Is it like kind of mum mates, play dates? I can do both. You know, I've got some friends that I'll do that with and then others that we would never hang out with each other's friends, like with the kids. Yeah. And then I'd say like more recently, just for me, I'm starting back in vocal training and I haven't done it for so long. What's driven that? Just because years ago, like I kept getting asked to audition for like musicals and stuff and I was like no no I don't really sing anymore and like I'm not someone that sings around the house and I lost a lot of confidence after the band yeah with and I have always loved singing just it's obviously it's always been a big part of my life and I was like no no like that's on the back burner you don't need to do that now and actually now I'm like I'm just gonna do it for myself to gain my confidence back in it and so that I can enjoy it and there's no pressure of an audition coming up or there's no like end goal it's almost like you're just reconnecting with that inner child part of you

24:40Zoe:but just probably did love to sing around the house I did I would love to say like I used to play the piano the cello and the guitar and I would love to like pick an instrument back up again but I'm limited because I like my long nails and I can't play a guitar or a cello with my nails so I'm like I'm not not happy to let go of those so the piano would be the only option but I can't bear a keyboard so I was like I'm not gonna go and buy a piano just start piano lessons so singing is I really really like that because it's like it's so rare that us kind of busy you know we've got our businesses we've got our jobs we've got our kids we've got partners houses friends we've got to actually find something just for the joy of it yeah I think my mum inspired me because she plays the cello, which is why I used to play when I was younger.

25:27And she joined back into an orchestra and she goes to a choir.

25:32Zoe:I started going to a choir. Oh, did you? So fun. I'll tell you what, it's good for a couple of things. One, I feel young. I'm like the youngest person there. I'm like, this is good because everywhere else I go, I feel like the oldest. And it is just so fun. It's like pure joy. I think you have to remember, like when you look at your kids and you think of like their lives and all the little different things that they do. Yeah. That's why they're so joyful and they don't have the stress of everything else. But you have to remember those little bits and the things that you did used to really enjoy.

26:00I might start the singing lessons and be like, actually, you know, I haven't got time for it or actually I'm not enjoying it. But I just want to give it a go. And I think it's, yeah, picking up those old things that you used to do, whatever it is.

26:09Zoe:I think it's such a good point of like how much we organize for the kids. And then like I try and include myself a little bit. So I was really into horse riding when I was young and got the girls into it now. so now I'll go into their lesson with them so it's like it's kind of something for all of us it's not me like working on the side on my phone well then you know what I mean which is how it could be I do try and do that with my boys but I don't really live up to any of their standards I was gonna say um football how's your football football like I've been in goal numerous times and it hurts I'm like not for me um cricket I'm always last on their list to throw the ball and then the minute someone else steps in the door they're like anyone else uh does anyone else want throw the ball they'll only let me come on the trampoline because I might wet myself and they think it's hilarious so that's like yeah mine always just want me on the trampoline yeah I'm like this is you're taking your lives into your own hands with spray ladies so are you the sort of parent that you thought you'd be um no because I think I thought I would stop working yeah that's like the biggest difference for me and I don't know I think we have such high standards of ourselves as a parent when you're going into it obviously everything looks easy and fun before you have a baby and then you're like oh okay um I think I thought I would be better at playing than I am I actually find it really difficult to like sit for longer than 10 minutes and play with cars or it's boring isn't it because I want to do the same especially when they're little I remember doing like a tea party and you do it three times and you're like kind of done and you're always doing it wrong they're like you're like yeah and then this happened no it didn't you know okay fine um so I think that I find harder I'm better at like doing things I'm more like the you know bedtime cuddles make sure that everything's sorted like if they want me to take them out somewhere I'll take them out but sitting unless it's something like coloring or something yeah it's probably something creative then I can get involved in that but I find a lot of the other stuff maybe it's because it's boys I don't know I just find it a bit more difficult and what are you like so obviously you've been so open and honest and actually you were one of the first people that really kind of inspired me because you were so honest and open about your mental health and that it seems normal now doesn't it yeah actually when you first started talking about that it was kind of Stephen Fry and a few others but it wasn't it wasn't the norm no um and you've been so honest about your maternal mental health yeah I think you know what at the time it wasn't really spoken about and when I originally spoke out about it it was it was because people in the public eye it was kind of like the speculation was that I had an addiction yeah or um an eating disorder like there was no other like that's the only thing that celebrities get and so I was like well no there's there's so much more nuance to that and I was like I kind of owe it to our fans at the time to kind of be honest and be like no I have depression anxiety even though I have this amazing life um this is what I'm suffering for from and you might too and that just felt like a really honest conversation for me to have at the time and it was terrifying.

29:32Zoe:I was going to say, did it feel terrifying? Yeah, it was a lot. And then it was kind of then, because I was still in the band, it was kind of like, okay, you've spoken about it now. Now let's put that back away because you are just meant to be bringing joy and fun in a band and that's kind of all anyone wants from you at the time, which I think has changed a lot now. So it wasn't until really the Saturday's finished that then I felt I could then properly talk about it. And it's been amazing. people still talk to me about the glamour interview that I did which was the first time I ever spoke about it they still come up to me now and say oh that really helped me or it helped me help my sister or whatever or my child and that means a lot um whereas now I do think yeah it is still wildly spoken about but for a while I kind of took a step back because I was like we're telling people to talk about it but there's nowhere for them to go and I found that really frustrating like yeah it's easy for everyone to say talk about it go see your gp go get an appointment but you'll be waiting for three years six months whatever yeah and um i kind of got a bit frustrated with that um whereas i feel like i found a new groove of it now yeah it's so true there was a time when it was yeah i felt that frustration too actually that so many people just talk about it but then there was never the solution sat sitting under it yeah and i think maternal mental health is still I think there's still like a bit of a taboo there because it's kind of like you're not I don't know whether we do it to ourselves I think it's a mixture of being hard on ourselves and society as well but it's kind of like well no you have a child you chose to have a child you have to feel joyous about it and you have to love every second and anything other than that is shameful yeah so shameful um and like my biggest thing with my friends is I always say to them I'm like if they start a conversation with me with I love my kids but I'm like no no go back you don't need to put that bit on there I know you love your kids yes and you don't have to say that just because you might hate one of them today or you're not enjoying this part of parenthood or you're feeling down or whatever it is you do not have to prove to me that you love your child to still feel those feelings and I find it really frustrating and I really have to like I have to stop it with myself um but I will always pick my friends up on it because I'm like you don't have to do that but we always say it I say it I know I think it's it's almost like that it is that sort of conditioning I think that we've got from from over the years where you where you know the perception of mothers was just that it was joyful and there was no other option for it to be this kind of unbelievably difficult raw kind of complete recalibration of who you are on every level which is what it really is well from the moment you're pregnant and I actually even found that when I hated being pregnant and I was really honest about it and women would come up to me like oh my god are you loving it and I'd go no I'd be like oh it's just a means to an end you know like I can't wait to meet the baby but I'm not enjoying being pregnant they go oh my god me too I hated this I hated that it was like I gave them permission to be able to say it.

32:29Whereas imagine if you'd gone I love it yeah I mean then we just perpetuate that same it's the same yeah the echo chamber of everyone just kind of saying what they think they have to say um and I actually think it's funny because sometimes my kids I get so frustrated with them because I'm like you don't understand how much we're doing for you or x whatever whatever it is and I haven't truly I think appreciated my parents until probably the last if I'm being honest like the last year or so and I had a really honest conversation with my mom I was having a really bad time like my son's got dyslexia and I'm really struggling with getting him the help he needs and he's emotional and I'm emotional and there's just so much going on and I rang her and I was just like oh I just feel like I'm not very good at this and I feel like I'm not enjoying it at the moment and what was I thinking I was so young to have kids and kind of went off in this rant and um she was like well why do you think I still went to work she was like I loved my job and she was like and I loved you guys but I didn't love being at home every day of the week and I didn't want to go out in the in the garden and play xyz and whatever and she was like you know I would go to work she was like I'd come home I'd want to just lay on the sofa and not say a word she was like but you know I had to cook dinner and have a conversation with you about how your day was and whatever and you know some people probably hear that and think oh my god that's awful but it it was probably the best and most honest conversation I've ever had with my mum and it just made me feel so much relief because I was like oh my god yeah like it was the same for you and you were just figuring it out every day and I just was like had so much respect for her for just being honest about it and I was like oh thank god that's so good and it's so true it's like who said where's this

34:15Zoe:contract that we signed that we were going to have kids and then just forget about every other area of our life and just be fulfilled and it's just such a lie yeah it's such a lie and it's it's not true how does kind of what you went through with your mental health because you you know you talk quite a lot about in the book in open how you felt different the way that you would almost feel porous to the world and worries from quite a young age has that changed how you've parented or have you tried to kind of separate your experience to their experience i do try and separate it because obviously sometimes they'll feel something or say something i think oh my god they're like me or and i really don't want them to have my brain i get i get that yeah i'm like don't be like me don't be like me um but i do think it helps in the look i think we've learned a lot more as a society as time has gone on that you know kids do have mental health wasn't even a conversation when we were growing up was it it just wasn't a thing everyone just said I was an I was an over thinker a deep thinker which is exactly what I was um and I do see that in my kids sometimes and I just try and instead of just tell them how they feel instead of being like oh you're fine or don't worry about that I'm like I know that doesn't help and we can't help them if they're scared or something really if they're like you know one of my sons is scared of boats I can't lie and say a boat has never sunk you know I can't say this one 100 % isn't gonna do that you know or oh you're fine I know because I've been in that situation that's not gonna make him feel better it makes it worse doesn't it it does because then you just feel like you're not heard yeah so I just listen and I just kind of like try and have those conversations with him I'm not always perfect with it and if I'm stressed or whatever probably sometimes I don't stop and have them every time but I do try and do that with them yeah and I often at night time will ask them what the best part of their day and what the least favorite part of their day was because I'm trying to get them to understand you know we have more emotions than happy sad angry whatever like there is so much more nuance in that and um just trying to get them to actually think about it without them realizing and also sometimes it's the only information that I get out of them what is that about that mine are the same come bedtime they're like cannot shut them up obviously they're trying to delay bedtime but I'm sort of there for it a little bit because I want to I do want to hear about all of that but then sometimes it's like two hours later you're like okay I think I think it's actually yeah it's actually time to go to bed and do you still have therapy and do you still support yourself in yeah so I still do therapy do you talk to the kids about that I do they know I have therapy i don't really go into it i kind of made a mistake with my youngest i was having like a really bad like depressive episode like quite a few years ago and i just felt like in that moment i was like this isn't a conversation that i really want to have and um i just said oh mommy's got a really bad headache so he was like okay went away and then my birthday about god it must be like eight months or whatever after this um wayne said to him what do you want to get mommy for her birthday and he said let's get her some painkillers for her headaches oh and I was just like oh my god this is the cutest thing I was like but I'm gonna have to teach him that that's not it because when he gets older and becomes a partner anytime his partner cries it's just gonna be like have some

37:37painkillers so I have tried to be as open and honest with them with all of that um you know if they're ever going through anything i'll always talk to the school and ask them to have conversations with them as well just to make them aware um especially with my dyslexic son because he gets frustrated and he can get really tough on himself and i find that really hard mentally to kind of deal with that all the time so is that because that kind of mirrors how hard you've been

38:02Zoe:on yourself at times yeah yeah he's so tough on himself yeah and that is the hardest thing i find my eldest is exact she looks like me everyone's like your twins but she's also got the same thought patterns as me and I'm like oh I find it so difficult to witness it is difficult and I have times where it really gets to me but I also think we'll approach it so differently yeah than it would have been when we were younger and also I have to remind myself of this she's also got all my good bits yeah so she's like she's also got amazing tenacity and resilience and she's but I can you know it's like you've got to remember that yes they've got maybe some of these things we didn't but also 100 i think for me i'm i take medication i do therapy um i do alternative therapies yeah yeah so i do ketamine therapy which online gets all sorts of conversations well anything new is anything new but you know if it works no doubt in 20 years it'll be it'll be mainstream in the same way that cbt was seen as quite controversial 25 years ago right it's like these things just Yeah, it's been a game changer for me, like an actual life changer.

39:05Has it? And yeah, it's weird, like as a girl who... Because people listening might not know, so you microdose a little bit. Well, you can microdose it. I do an IV session. Right. So I literally intravenously have ketamine treatment. And you can sometimes do it with a therapist there. Yep. Or you follow it up with a therapist afterwards. and basically the reason that it works is because one it lowers your ego so when you're in this during the ketamine you are you have like an outer body experience and it means that if you've been keeping anything in any anxieties any traumas anything you your body brings it up and brings it out whereas you could be pushing that down for years not know it's really a thing and it's amazing because you can't hold anything back.

39:58You're not necessarily speaking while you're having it, but it's all coming through your brain.

40:02Zoe:And then do you remember it when you come out of it? Yeah, you remember it. Sometimes I forget stuff, but yeah, a lot of the time, sometimes nothing happens. But I think the more I do it, obviously, the less comes out. And it kind of depends what you go in with it is. Sometimes I'll go in with an intention. I was going to say you set an intention, yeah. It's a weird experience as someone who's never done drugs. What made you, yeah, what made you? It's like I went right in hard. You were like, I'm just going to try it. Because a lot of people start with like ayahuasca or psilocybin or. Yeah. That scares me because you have to be sick.

40:32Yeah. I don't like being sick. But it does really interest me. Just my doctor suggested that I try it because I tried lots of different medications and therapies and they haven't worked. I always still get these like dips, if you will. and it's just a newer treatment that he was like it's really good for people with treatment resistance yeah depression so I was like you know what I'll try it um oh that's brave that is brave

41:01Zoe:yeah the first time I did it I was terrified yeah I would have been yeah yeah my husband's done a lot of psychedelic ceremonies and always with a psychotherapist like always super safe and he's like you should try and I'm like I'm too scared it is scary I used to do it with someone there and there used to be points where you feel so far away from yourself that i used to have to put my hand out and she'd hold my hand just to ground me so i knew that i would come back i always have this thing that i'm not going to come back yep but now i do it on my own and it's kind of like normal practice and it's fine but what it actually does is it rebuilds neuro pathways so like if you have treatment resistant depression it's almost like you've got like a wall in between the pathways yeah and it builds new ones around them so it continues afterwards like neuroplasticity and Yeah, 100%.

41:44Like I recommend it to anyone. It's still really expensive, which really annoys me. So it's not as accessible as it should be. But I'm really hoping that will change. I know the NHS have apparently started doing it or are thinking about starting doing it. But I really, yeah, anyone that can, I'm always like, please just give it a go because it is amazing.

42:07Zoe:And so you haven't had an episode since you... No, it's really good. We're still figuring it out. So like you normally do it in big slots. Now I do like one a month and then hopefully we'll spread them out further and then like see how it goes. So it has been it has been really interesting. It's been life changing for me. It's really changed my relationships with so many people, like with my parents and with your mum. It sounds like that's sort of vulnerable, deeper connection and conversations. Yeah. And even within work, you know, all those like imposter syndromes and just like old things I've told myself from such a young age.

42:39I think that has been a massive help in like me having the confidence.

42:42Zoe:Because you had such a different childhood, really. I know you had that moment from kind of 18 where you did have that normal job. But really, from 12, it's been, you know, you must have picked up so many different expectations and pressures along the way. Yeah. And you don't realize how you hold on to them. Yeah. Like everyone does. Yeah, we all do. You know, you have these stories and beliefs that you tell yourself and they become part of your personality. Yeah. and I just thought my personality was that I have depression anxiety and that I think these things and whatever and actually that's just not the case you just have to like deal with them and reframe your mind um so I think that has been have really helped with my adjustment into like giving it a go with faves and doing new things and I think when I was younger I just became such a people pleaser because I thought you know that's like everyone has when you're in a band you're in popularity game from 12 like I felt it at an all-girls school and it broke me I cannot imagine what it would have been like on a global scale right yeah I think that's what it is and then also like with my kids I think that's where I have to remind myself is I look at them and I'm like I really don't have much to compare it to because my comparison is so different and like I can't at certain ages of their life and them at school and stuff I have to really try and think okay like what is normal and what isn't and yeah you know what stage are they at and it's it's funny I actually said to my you like get yourself to that hotel get on that stage and sing a song because you're 13.

44:10I said to my business partner once I was like you know I had a really normal childhood and she was like no you didn't and I was like okay fine.

44:18Zoe:None of the rest of us were in a global pop band at that age. I want to ask you some questions to wrap up they're called quick fire but there's actually nothing that quick fire about okay um motherhood is teaching me dot dot dot that everybody's just figuring it out as they go along i love that what's something that you didn't used to value before motherhood but now you do my parents yeah that's really nice i was so tough on them were you yeah i think you are as a kid you know anything that they did wrong or anything that you find i remember finding my mom who is really cool really beautiful i remember finding her so embarrassing and all my friends used to say but you've got the coolest mom i'd be like no she's so embarrassing so embarrassing i always said to my kids i'm like i'm a cool mom you are a cool mom i'm like oh one day you'll realize um but yeah i think like i definitely my parents 100 that's so beautiful and if your first time pregnant self was sat here and you could say something to her oh god what would you say to her oh i don't know just be kinder to yourself i think pregnancy back then it's very different to it how it is now like any of my friends that are pregnant even like who i meet in the industry or whatever even to the point that they wear their bumps out now do you know what i mean like yeah you wear a That wasn't a thing, was it?