Frida Founder: “You Can’t DIY Yourself Through Motherhood”, with Chelsea Hirschhorn

0:07Welcome to Motherkind and to this very special episode created in partnership with Frida. I am your host Zoe Blaski and this is the show that takes you by the hand and guides you through a wild ride. That is modern motherhood. Because this is for you, the woman behind the mother. Every week I bring you world-leading experts and thinkers to share fresh ideas, tools and inspiration so that you can thrive too. This week I am joined by Chelsea Hershaw and founder of Frida, the brand behind Frida Baby, Frida Mum and soon Frida Fertility.

0:44Women's Health Education. This was her first ever UK podcast interview and what an honour it was to have her here. You might know Frida from the famous No Sucker. Honestly, thank God for that little product, quite frankly. They now have over a hundred products, all designed to support us parents with the realities of raising a family. But what I discovered through the process of getting to know Chelsea and Frida better is how pioneering this brand really is. Frida created the first ever ad showing lactating women at the Golden Globes, which was previously banned. And Chelsea tells that incredible story in the episode.

1:23They also produced the first ever sports illustrated feature of a woman proudly showing her C-section scar, which unbelievably something that had never been done before in the magazine's 58 year history. Chelsea was also in London to unveil Mother Verite, the first statue dedicated to honouring motherhood and the postpartum experience. This seven foot tall figure represents a universal mother whose body bears the hallmarks of resilience and creation. Think about this, fewer than 4 % of statues represent women and even fewer acknowledge motherhood. This is a moment that matters. If you're in London, please go and see it, I'll put the link in the show notes.

2:11This conversation will move you. You'll feel seen, you'll feel inspired, and you'll hear Chelsea's raw truths about building a pioneering brand while raising her own family. She shares wisdom and practical advice that will stay with you long after you finish listening. You're going to feel seen, you're going to feel inspired, and Chelsea shares so many truths and practical advice for how she has built a brand alongside raising kids. So here's the episode of Chelsea. I hope you love it.

2:43Chelsea, I am so honoured because this is your first podcast in the UK. Welcome. I'm across the pond. I'm so excited. Thank you for having me. To be here and to have this conversation with you. I'm curious, you are really integrated into motherhood culture globally. What do you notice is the difference in the UK? You know, the biggest difference between American women and women in the UK, but particularly when it comes to motherhood, I think is the culture that is steeped in the expectation of a stiff upper lip. and this lack of comfort with vulnerability that I think over the last 10 years, at least since I've been doing it, 11 now, we've begun to break down in the US.

3:42And I'm really excited to continue that work here because I think it's such an amazing opportunity opportunity to really demonstrate that you can be both strong and fragile at the same time and I think UK motherhood is ripe for that acceptance. You're gonna make me cry right that was so beautiful to be strong and fragile and I think you're right it's fascinating to me how the US does tend to track ahead with particularly in the you know in the maternal mental health space and well-being in general so I feel so excited to be in this space especially with brands like Frida and I've got to be honest because I first discovered you when I needed a way to get snot out of my baby's nose that wasn't sucking it myself as someone suggested or sticking a turkey baster up there yeah I was like oh and then someone I can't remember what I think I found it in John Lewis.

4:43Yeah. And I was like, this is incredible. But it's only in recent years that I've actually come to get to know the brand and understand the DNA of it. And actually how pioneering you and the brand are. When you first started it, did you have that line of sight or did that develop as you realized, you got into this industry and realized this is archaic. Why are we not talking in this way? My introduction to motherhood 11 years ago came at a time when disruptive media platforms like social media began to flourish. And the way that that surfaced was in this picture perfect version of parenthood. And the experience that I was having on the front lines at home was markedly different than the image of motherhood that I was being served in all facets.

5:45and I couldn't synthesize or make sense of that dichotomy. And my transition into motherhood left me feeling on the fringe of what everyone else was experiencing because my perception of it was so skewed. And that was really the catalyst or the fuel ultimately to begin. I think what's so fascinating about that is so many women have that experience but when what I see is lots of women say oh it must be me I must be broken and that was how I felt that's actually why I started the podcast because I genuinely thought everyone seems fine I'd even go to these baby groups and everyone would seem fine and smiling and I would be like crying you know in the toilet thinking what is wrong with me did you ever have that moment or did you know you Do you sort of person that knows yourself and thought, no, this isn't right the way we're portraying motherhood?

6:47I'm on a discovery journey with myself. I would say I've never quite known myself completely, especially through so many changes and life stages. You never really know yourself 100 % through each of them. And I think it's more of a journey of discovery than, you know, unequivocal conviction in who you are. But mine wasn't so much that I wasn't also experiencing some of the same highs of motherhood that I was seeing and absorbing. But there was also a side of parenthood that was so veiled. And I felt that transformation, both physically as a mother, but also emotionally through a new life stage, I was so ill-prepared for.

7:43And I'm a preparer, like super OCD perfectionist to a fault. And, you know, I love the book, What to Expect When You're Expecting, but it left me wanting a little bit more. You know, chapter 13 told me to pack a sandwich for my partner in my hospital bag. And that wasn't quite the experience I was feeling I should prioritize during that stage. And so I didn't feel I had the tools to prepare. And so it wasn't so much that I felt necessarily that there was something wrong. I felt myself craving a better way. Yeah. And what you have done with the tools through your brand feeder is just, it's phenomenal.

8:34It's almost one of those things where you think, I cannot believe what we used to grapple with before. I mean, I remember my nipples, oh my gosh, the pain. And someone said to me, I think this was before you had your amazing pads, but someone said to me, you need to get a burn gauze. So I remember looking, yeah, I remember looking for this. It came in this big medical pack and I had to cut it and it's all sticky. And it's criminal really, isn't it? That we women are on the front line creating life and none of the products before a brand like yours fit our needs. Women were hacking their way through life.

9:15Yes. Particularly mothers, the ultimate MacGyvers. I don't know if that analogy translates on this side of the pond, but you can't DIY yourself through motherhood. And sure, there are hacks and tips and tricks, but it was so obvious to me that something was broken. And those first few experiences, whether it was the first few months or the first year of motherhood, one experience after another and not feeling like you have the tools to do the job just really drove me to create something better. And I love how you made the switch as well. I love how, I think this is probably quite a parallel journey for a lot of mothers is at the start, the focus is very much on the baby.

10:05Your first product was, and you know, your first big growth was in baby products. And then it's something like, hang on, what about the woman behind the mother? What about the mother? And then, you know, I love that your next evolution was that, no, let's serve the mother as well. I love that you bring that up because I think to the outside world, we started as a baby business, baby products. My consumer was always the parent, always. I had my eyes set on fixing that experience for both men and women who were caring for babies. long sort of before we really built out even the feminine care line.

10:49And I think you see that manifested in the way that the brand has come to life, in the way that we speak to our consumer, in the way that we speak to parents, in the community that we've created and galvanized around this obsession with making parents' lives easier. And so in a category that had historically been defined by licensed characters on toothbrushes. I was left, you know, wondering, why aren't we speaking to the same parents who are also Apple users and Nike lovers and have taste and style and perspective and an expectation of an experience that we can match. These products, yes, they help parents take care of babies, but they're for parents.

11:42Yeah. And the language as well, because before you came in and starting putting words like vagina, that controversial word. God forbid. Yeah. You know, the whole language was infantilized. Yeah. Tell us about that. When you first put the word vagina on, you got pushback from retailers, right? Which must've felt really scary because if you can't get into retailers, you don't have a business. I have so many anecdotes and stories about the start of our feminine care journey and the challenges that we faced, pushing those barriers and introducing a bit of authenticity and candor into an otherwise very stale and outdated and broken category.

12:28I think that historically, culturally, we've been reticent to accept and, you know, proffer that women go through these experiences and need support, navigating them both physically and emotionally. And that collective fear has really suffocated any opportunity to prepare women. And our goal in introducing some of that candor through copy, through language, through, you know, really the unfiltered raw reality of the experience was to soften the landing by introducing some levity and lightheartedness and in sometimes humor because otherwise it's a very dark and isolating experience as we know. But, you know, the best way that I knew how to do that was to find the lightness in the fact that we were, you know, sitting on a diaper full of ice or sucking snot or using a tube to get the poop and the gas out of your baby's tush, right?

13:40Like if you can't find the humor in that, Yeah, it's a lonely, isolating place. How do you find the resilience? So you've got four children. I think that matrescence experience can really knock your sense of resilience and confidence. And you're doing that parallel with pioneering in an industry where you're getting pushback. So you're almost from both sides of your life experiencing uncharted territory. How did you have that resilience to keep going and that foresight? And in the wake of lots of people saying, you can't do this. This is ridiculous. How on earth did you find that? Because I experienced that on a micro level.

14:20And I've got to be honest, I crumble behind the scenes. I think every woman walks a line between some version of complacency and perfectionism. and were it not for the catalyst in starting the business and my neighbor left, you know, the Swedish snot sucker in my mailbox with a post-it that said, you know, trust me, you'll thank me. And in so many ways, sort of the brand is a living personification of that be the best friend or neighbor that no one has, right? My drive to abandon complacency in pursuit of better or in some cases sort of perfectionism has created this world where my work and my life have totally integrated.

15:07And regardless of whether or not you're in the baby or parenting product space or any other industry, I don't believe that those two worlds are mutually exclusive. I think that they can be really gracefully interwoven to create a much healthier coexistence between both versions of a woman's identity. Well, I mean, in many ways, in my world, which is the sort of the coaching world, so many of the ideas feel as outdated as so many of the products that you've come in and revolutionized. One being work-life balance. I mean, if ever there was a stick that we were going to use to beat ourselves up with, it would be that.

15:53And yet so many women say to me, I'm failing. I've got no balance. I'm like, of course you haven't got any balance. It doesn't exist. How quickly did you assimilate that idea for yourself that lots of these ideas that I've been told about how this is going to go, running a business and a family aren't going to work for me? I'm going to do a whole episode on that topic. I think my whole life I've gotten comfortable with some level of sacrifice. I don't think that it was necessarily new when I entered motherhood. You know, academics and education were always a very important value growing up. And so there were always circumstances where you had to sacrifice something in the pursuit of another.

16:34And so that was very deeply ingrained. And so, you know, getting comfortable early on with that level of sacrifice in pursuit of another ambition or goal, I think, you know, really helped pave the way in some ways. And also couple that with the fact that I've never expected to be, even in spite of a compulsive pursuit of perfection, right, which has plagued me my entire life. I've never sought to be all things to everyone all at once. I've gotten very comfortable with this concept of defining the chapter of life that I'm in and gunning for the goal, for whatever that goal may be in that particular chapter, whether it was getting into law school, whether it was my first job out of law school.

17:26So many examples I can think of where I've defined a sandbox to play in, stayed within the sandbox, and then moved on and out. And I really feel that that has been an emotional superpower for me. And I just want to zoom in on this, because I think this is such a powerful point for all of us, me included. Are you defining those chapters by time or by environment? So I imagine you had a chapter which was starting Frida, where you were probably quite scrappy. And I imagine now you're more in a chapter which is scaling, which is very different. Again, are you doing it in time? So someone's listening, they're like, I really want to know what chapter I'm in and what I should gun for.

18:08Because I think that unlocks so much in terms of boundaries, priorities, saying no, not worrying about other people. How do you figure it out? Never by time. Never by time. Never defined a chapter by time. I think it sets unrealistic goals. So another word we're getting rid of is the five-year plan. No. Not helpful. I'm on the 41-year plan. Because the truth is, I may be really enjoying this chapter and want to stay in it. And I am forgiving in that way. And don't put that pressure on myself to define those parameters by time per se. I define them really by my emotional state. You know, am I enjoying the pursuit of this goal at this very moment?

18:54And are the priorities that I'm choosing matching where that goal is at that moment in time. Okay. And so talk about the beginning chapter of Frida versus the scaling chapter of Frida. Those singular or sometimes multifaceted goals are very different for me. And like you said, it really does help me prioritize. And I think when you handcuff them by time, you're all of a sudden in a race against time. And that I think is a recipe for a lot of personal disappointment. Because a lot of mothers that I know, I'm interested in your perspective in this, they do their chapters by their children's ages.

19:39So a lot of mothers will say to me, well, when my youngest starts school, then I'm going going to do this or when this. Yeah. I can see how that could work. However, as a mom of four, my children are at all different stages at the same exact time. And so I've never felt that that's been a useful tool. Of course, in the early stages of building Frida, when I had fewer children, that was easier for me. I got comfortable prioritizing starting and building the business at the expense of some of the experiences as a young mother that I might have prioritized were not for being intentional about that chapter of my life.

20:20What were your non-negotiables? Things that you will not miss? Do you have any? I love this question and I feel that the answer may be controversial, but I don't have any non-negotiables. I think leaving yourself the flexibility to assess what is non-negotiable at a current moment or a day or in that particular, you know, phase is really freeing in a way, right? Because I could say, for example, I'll never miss family dinner until I have a really important meeting that I'm enjoying preparing for and I'm pulling an all-nighter with the team and I'm going to go pick up my son from school. I'm going to bring him back to the office.

21:01He's going to hang out here and we're going to have dinner at home. So I think if I define the non-negotiables, it's almost like defining the scaffolding of the sandbox by time, right? And when you miss it, it hurts. And I think I started out with some non-negotiables. I'll never miss the kid's Mother's Day play until, you know, my first opportunity to meet with CVS happened on the same exact day as the Mother's Day play. Why is it always the same day? It feels like that's a conspiracy, right? There have been a lot of tools that have gotten me through some of the emotional heartache that that comes with.

21:37And it's part of the territory, right? But I think when you have a certain set of, of course, if a family member is sick, if a child is sick, you want to be there. But there are some parts of that that I can delegate and outsource. So if you're staying home from school, I can either bring you with me, right? Or I can sort of swap on and off with my husband or my nanny or someone who can, you know, supervise you staying home. I would love to take care of you. I try not to miss doctor's appointments, but there are ones that I can't make. And I've gotten comfortable with that reality. And the only thing that's gotten me comfortable is not drawing this really deep line in the sand between what I will and won't do and building in that flexibility into my personal system.

22:19Listening to you, you sound like you've really mastered that art of having your own back. I feel like you've created quite a positive self-talk. Is that accurate? I've been working on it. It's definitely something that I'm nurturing. I think... I think it's working. When I think about why, like where I get the conviction or the courage to do that, I think about my own childhood and what my mother gave up, both personally and professionally, to raise us and to support our family in support of my father's professional aspirations. And that was so deeply ingrained in me from a young age to have that personal and professional independence and freedom that I think ultimately is the foundation of some of that conviction.

23:09And I watched, and I don't want to say maybe resent, but remorse, certainly, that she had not pursuing certain things or opportunities at the expense and segue, of course, into the topic of what society values and the invisible work of motherhood in and of itself. but really it was there was no other way for me from the beginning to have the courage to pursue my own ambitions however I define them it's really interesting because we had I had similar setup and actually lots of the kind of senior women that I coach had the same thing a mother where you know she didn't pursue her goals and she didn't have financial independence and it's a generation of women.

23:59Exactly. Often, you know, two generations before us. And I think so many of us. And I think that's why, you know, even any working mother in her own way is pioneering. Whether she's working one day or she's like you building a, you know, huge business because it's only in the last hundred years, really, that we've been operating in this way. So it does feel new. And I think that's why it feels so broken. Yeah. And then of course, it always helps to have a support system and be choiceful about who and when you call on them to really continue to drive that conviction and confidence. And I think those are invaluable tools as far as, you know, my toolkit is concerned.

24:45Well, that's another myth that we've been sold, isn't it? That, you know, this picture of all these successful women not showing, I really appreciated you saying, oh, my nanny, because so many people will not talk about their child care setup. It's like, how can you talk about doing everything exactly without the infrastructure that sits behind? Yeah. You sound like you've mastered so many of these internal lessons and the way that you think about managing Frida and your family and yourself. What is a lesson that you are still learning and you can't quite crack it yet? Yeah, I think the constant learning journey for me will always be the pursuit of perfection.

25:26Okay. And breaking that down. And that's just continuous improvement work on myself and with the team and with my family that I'm always engaging in, either passively or deeply connected to, depending on sort of what the topic du jour is. But I think that I can be really hard on myself and set at some times very lofty and ambitious goals that require me to fall on the extreme ends of whatever chapter I'm in. And so redefining what perfect is to me, I think is a really exciting process that from what I can pick up on, I think women in their late 40s and early 50s at that chapter get very comfortable with.

26:26And so I'm not necessarily disappointed that I haven't nailed that part yet. I'm excited to continue to work on that. Yeah. I was listening to a podcast the other day. It was Mel Robbins and Emma Grease. They were talking about a difference between perfection and growth. And it was absolutely fascinating that growth is internally driven. How can I do well? Perfection is what will the external world to think of me. And I really liked that simple distinction because I think as women, we are, and in the motherhood space, we're really conditioned to think about how it looks from the outside as opposed to how it feels on the inside.

27:02It's so interesting because I'm not sure if my drive for perfection is so externally driven. I would say mine feels a lot like it comes from an internal impulse. So yes, I agree. Growth over perfection is definitely the journey I'm in. You know, and the umbrella under which I would say my continuous improvement goals are defined. Oh, the coach in me wants to unravel. Yes, I know. Do it. Do it. I'm not going to. I'm not going to. That's for our next session. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. No, I think that, you know, of course I measure success, you know, by what external factors define as success. But reshaping that definition and what does success mean to me?

27:45Yeah. And really starting to define that for myself. and I'm excited to continue to evolve that thinking. Sahir, do you feel successful? Yes. And I say that because not to suggest that I've achieved all the goals that I want to achieve because it's not even close. I say that because my definition of success has changed and it's not about growing the business to a certain size or having a certain number of children or having certain experiences with my family or any of those sort of maybe more traditional markers of success. I'm getting very comfortable defining success in things like my time, how much time I have to integrate my work and my life.

28:40in showing my children that you can be ambitious, but also live a life with purpose and that your work can mean something and that those two circles can overlap and they're not mutually exclusive. So really redefining what success looks like. I think, you know, time is the ultimate luxury. Yeah. I feel the same. Actually, I define a lot of my success by how I feel. Yeah. Which is new. It didn't used to be that way because at my most externally successful, I felt my least happiness. I'm like, the equation is broken. I think that that's right. And I think that success is maybe even different than perfection.

29:24Success tends to typically be defined externally for a lot of people, especially women, right? And so really shifting that definition of success in being in control of how I spend my time and really the ultimate success for me has been being able to gracefully integrate my professional ambitions with my personal priorities. And I'm slowly, you know, really demonstrating that that is feasible, both for me, for my team, for my family, my extended family, really trying to prove that out, which means saying no to things a lot in both spheres. How do you get comfortable with those no's? Is that a new thing?

30:03I don't think I am comfortable quite yet with the nose. There's always a part of me that wants to be everything to everyone. And that's, I think, the perfectionism that I'm working on and unpacking. And so I would say as a byproduct of having four children and running a business and, you know, wanting to work on my marriage and wanting to work on my relationships as a daughter and a sister and as a friend, there's inevitably tradeoffs. And so I'm not comfortable yet saying no, but I've had to. And so I'm excited about being more comfortable. well yeah but that's how growth works isn't it when we first do something it's like it's like with the brand you know when you first put the word vagina on the packet it's really difficult and then over time you know it becomes more accepted yeah I still carry a lot of guilt through the nose and so I think that is a lot of the future growth that I'm excited about and then I want to talk about the future growth of Frida as well because you've got so many exciting things tell me about something you're super excited about with the brand there's so much Frida has been my love language to parents and in particular women and it's really the evolution of the brand and the product line and the business has been a manifestation of the personal experiences that I've had on the front lines of parenthood and just wanting better and wanting to fix something that's otherwise broken.

31:40And like my own personal journey through parenthood, it's growing. And the problems that I'm navigating in this chapter of parenthood are not necessarily different than the ones that I was solving for the first few years as a young mother. I just need a different set of tools. Yes. And so growing with our consumer and growing as a parent alongside them has really gotten me very excited because our mission to prepare parents for these raw realities of the experience, whether it's the physical transformation into motherhood and postpartum and breast care and all that that entails, the preparation and the conviction that I have that each stage can be better is really, I think, a thread that is ubiquitous throughout all these different stages.