How to make healthy changes that (finally) last with a world-leading behaviour change specialist

0:08Welcome to Motherkind, it is me your host Zoe. We are proudly sponsored by Wild Nutrition women's supplements. This is the show about you, the woman behind the mother. The show where me and my incredible guests are going to show you how to thrive and grow in motherhood. Yes, despite the crazy pressures and unrealistic expectations that are put on us. Thank you so much for being here. It means so much to me that you listen week after week. Make sure you hit the subscribe button so you never miss an episode because we have some unbelievable episodes coming up for you. Welcome to the September Reset series.

0:46I don't know about you, but September feels more like New Year to me than actual New Year. And I love doing a reset in September, thinking about what's working in my life, what's not working and what changes I need to make. So today I have an incredible episode for you on how to actually change, how to make new habits stick. Dr. Heather McKee is a behaviour change specialist, and she's employed by some of the world's biggest businesses like Starbucks, Deloitte and Unilever to help their staff make healthy changes that lead to really big results. So it was when Heather was running a healthy lifestyle clinic in a hospital that she became obsessed with what makes well-intentioned people not stick to the right choices for them.

1:31I think we can all relate to that. This challenge led Heather down a 10-year path of becoming one of the world's leading behavior change specialists. So we are very, very lucky to have Heather on the show and to learn from her. I learned so much from this episode and I know that you are going to too. So if you want to exercise more, if you want to eat healthier, if you want to stop scrolling as much, if you want to change your mindset or even start a business, then this is the episode for you. You are going to learn the very specific things not to do when you're trying to instill a new habit and what makes someone successful at the change they want to make.

2:11Heather is also a new mum so I love that she brings a very practical and realistic angle for us all too. Here is the episode, I hope you love it.

2:24I'd like to take this moment to thank our headline sponsor Wild Nutrition who are offering MotherKind listeners 50 % off for the first three months. When I was pregnant with my first 10 years ago, I asked a few nutritionist friends, what's the best pregnancy supplement? And they all said the same thing, wild nutrition. So I listened and these incredible supplements have kept me feeling great through two pregnancies, starting this podcast, writing a book, a relocation and everything in between for the last decade. So it's magical to me that I now get to tell you about this incredible woman founded brand every week.

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3:52Dr Heather welcome to Motherkind I'm so excited to be chatting to you I couldn't think of anyone better to help us with some of our September habits so welcome. Thank you sorry no I'm delighted to be here I'm really excited I kind of love the fresh energy then we get around this new year like it's kind of like a micro new year I always say like the half new year that we're like back to school energy. I was talking to one of my friends this morning and she was saying she's buying me notepads. And I said, did you buy a new school bag? She's like, it didn't go that far. But yeah, it's a nice kind of reset and renewal of our energy at this time of year.

4:28I think so. And I think for parents, it definitely feels more new year. The new year does for me. But you have a 13 month old. So I wanted to start asking you, how have you found the transition to motherhood. What's your matrescence been like? I found it very humbling. And what I mean by that is, you know, obviously been in the habits field, behaviour change field for years, you'd think I would have all of the habits, everything, all of the tools lined up. And I did. But I still found it really, really, really hard. I kind of realised pretty quickly that I'd probably burn out 10 times quicker with childcare than I probably would with normal work and my business.

5:08And I think so much of that is like that kind of relentless invisible responsibility that comes you know with having a child and I mean this in a really positive way but it was like you felt all of the feelings times 10 like everything like you know the anger is felt times 10 vulnerability was felt times 10 and like do you know actually like to be completely honest the thing that was actually really hard for me and I was unprepared for so I was kind of mentally preparing myself for the late nights. I was mentally preparing myself for the crying. I was mentally preparing myself for feeling really incompetent and not knowing what I was doing.

5:44But one thing I wasn't prepared for was the love that I feel for this little one and how vulnerable that made me feel and how scary that was. And I think that that was something that actually really shocked me. I wasn't ready for that part of things. And yeah, I feel like it's kind of changed me in that way that I feel way more like I suppose like vulnerable in in so many ways but in in beautiful ways as well and it really has I think it's really taught me the importance of putting myself first which sounds a bit crazy um because it's the time in your life when you're you know meant to be supporting a little one supporting another one but it really helped me understand and see the value of the importance of taking my taking care of myself and minding myself first and then that impact that that would have on my motherhood and my child and my own happiness as well.

6:37Yeah, I can see how people can get so lost in their motherhood and it is scary. And I was lucky or unfortunate, I don't know, it depends on which way you look at it, but I was quite late having children because I had a really bad injury for years and couldn't carry a child. And so I really had time to get to know myself and grow that self-awareness. And yet with all of that, like I say, and with all of the tools it was still just such a vulnerable time for me and just such a huge change emotionally how did you continue to put yourself first because I think it's such a powerful insight to have quite early on 13 months lots of mums me included don't get to that big insight which I think all of us do eventually yeah to put ourselves first so how did you get to the insight and how do you practically do that?

7:29I think obviously everyone forages their own path and you know it's the journey is going to be different for everyone but for me I think I was very aware of the fact and I had seen in so many friends you know getting lost in you know their matrescence and not feeling themselves anymore and losing all their sense of self-worth and self-belief and self-confidence so I was really, really aware of that. And so I actually started in pregnancy, I started accepting help from people, which is something that was very difficult as it is for a lot of women. And you know, if someone offered help, I'd say yes.

8:06I know that sounds so stupid and so simple, but actually it started to make a big difference. And I started to realize that bad things don't happen to you when you say yes. People don't think that you're obnoxious when you say yes. They don't think you're taking the piss out of them if you say yes they actually love helping you and so there was little things like that that I started to do during my pregnancy that actually helped me build the capacity to then know and understand and accept help for when I needed it later on I kind of knew in myself as well that I would always want to um I think this might have been similar for you Zoe I heard on some of your previous work but I knew that I'd probably want to go back to work quite quickly because work was such a big part of my identity and I felt quite lucky about having that and having that outlet as well and and the kind of tightrope walk that I had that it wasn't just an outlet maybe like not letting it turn into an escape if that made sense and like not a use like kind of a break or an escape or any of that um so I had to be quite careful about that actually at the start but I think kind of being a little bit older knowing myself a little better I kind of knew the things I needed to have.

9:16I practiced self-compassion every day during my pregnancy. I practiced taking 10 minute naps called yoga nidras. I promised myself and then failed many times in early motherhood about putting myself first when he went to sleep. I was like, do not tidy when the baby naps. Do not organize when the baby naps. Do not clean when the baby naps. You were going to sit down. And it took me a couple of months to actually start to do that properly and and kind of allow myself the last 10 minutes to do the bits because otherwise you just get swallowed up and then you feel resentful and you're like I have no time for myself and I'm a bit of an ambivert so I actually need that time on my own to recover and so another thing actually I did during pregnancy is I wrote a letter to my mother self and I wrote down all the things and the tools that I would need as I transitioned into motherhood and I need space I know that about myself.

10:11I need to get daylight. I know that about myself. I need good nourishment. I need to breathe, you know, and I needed certain things in my life. And I knew that those are the pillars that would keep me strong. And some days I got one of those. Some days, you know, I've got none of those, but I knew the things that I would need at the time. And I really, really, really tried to create this space for this. I love that you said baby down for a nap, you first, and then the last 10 minutes to do the jobs because it's so easy to think when I've done the jobs, then I'll sit down with a hot cup of tea.

10:46And of course the jobs, how did you allow yourself? Cause something, a lot of our community struggle with is allowing themselves to sit in the mess and actually relax. A lot of mothers say, I cannot relax until the dishes are done. The bottles are clean. The washing's folded. Did you find that tension and how did you overcome it? Yes. And I didn't overcome it. It still annoys me. But I just have to deal with it. Like I just have to let it go. You know, and I see I see my husband's so able to let it go. I see, you know, other people I know so able to let it go. I just I suppose I waited up and said, well, either you can have no time and feel resentful or you can take the time and just leave the other things to later.

11:26And it is annoying. And I often I have this seat in my house, which I call the mental health chair. and I went there and that's always kind of like a safe space so I always went there and I suppose this is another thing about habits it's a cue it's an environmental thing and every time I always went to the mental health chair there so there wasn't clutter or mess around me I just removed myself from that now that was after unlearning that lesson many many times and starting to clean and do the things and I was like no no no no okay back to the mental health chair let's go and I had my journal there and I had a book there and sometimes I'd only be there for like eight minutes, seven minutes, you know, or I barely get through like a hot cup of tea.

12:02But just being in that space just reminded me that this is time for self-care. This is time for me. This is time to recalibrate. And then, you know, some days I'd get up, I'd do things or some days the baby would have a nap for 10 minutes. So that's all I got, you know, but it was about removing myself from it. If I couldn't see it, I wasn't as agitated by it all, but I totally empathize with that and it is like you know it's so frustrating but I I read a quote recently that was like a tidy home is a misspent life and it really landed with me in a way you know because we're always kind of striving thinking that like you know some school inspector or someone from our past is going to come to the house and give us you know a black mark because we haven't done that the dishes that day and actually you know there are more important things like taking space for yourself that actually need to come first.

12:51Yeah, I love that as well. And I don't tidy the kids toys for that reason, because they can see again the next day. I feel like Sisyphus pushing the rock up. I don't do it. You mentioned habits there and that mental health chair. And I want to dive into habits because I think that it's the habits that we do daily, weekly, monthly, that create the architecture and the structure of lives ultimately. And you are, this is your area of expertise. So I feel very lucky that we're going to get to talk to you about how you've practically done this in the last 13 months and with your incredible expertise on it.

13:29So why do you think habits matter so much for mothers? Let's start there. Why do they matter? Because I think our habits give a structure when willpower or motivation fail. and let's be honest when we're mothers that happens pretty much on a daily basis and habits are there so habits are non-conscious processes so they're formed through something called context dependent repetition so do the same thing in the same circumstances enough times and it becomes a habit so for example you know instead of washing the dishes I go to my mental health chair the more often I repeat going to my mental health chair next time the baby's down for a nap my brain cues me and says, oh, hey, Heather, remember the thing you did the last time?

14:11It wasn't washing the dishes, it was going to the chair. And so the more often you repeat something in a given circumstance, the more likely it is to become a habit. And I think the problem is that so many people go about habits in the wrong way. They see habits as kind of these rigid rules, whereas I see them more as like flexible scaffolding. Like the best ones are the ones that kind of kind of bend with life's chaos, not break under it. And I think a helpful habit is something that you can still do when the baby won't nap, when your toddler is sick, when work is overwhelming, when you've gotten into an argument with your friend.

14:42There are those things that are automatic, but they only come about if we repeat them often enough. And I think it's really, really important to know that it's the repetition of habits that actually builds that skill. And then your brain cues you and you don't even have to think about it anymore. It's just like, you know, putting on your seatbelts, tying your sew laces, you know, the way you make your tea in the morning, you don't even think about it. It's not like me and you, Zoe, lay in bed this morning, you know, weighing up the pros and cons of dental hygiene or deciding if we're in the toothbrushing kind of zone.

15:10You know, we just brushed our teeth automatically because it's something that we do automatically each day. And actually 43 % of our day is made above our habits. And that's really interesting because it ultimately shows it's our routine that matters, not our willpower and not our motivation. And so when we want to create change in our life, We have to think about creating change to our routines, creating change to the things that we do every day, rather than actually thinking about when I'm going to be motivated to change. And so there's a big difference between motivation and habits. So let's start at the top.

15:45Someone's listening to this and they're like, I really want to put in a new habit. They probably want to put in 100 new habits. but let's say it's around eating or exercise what is that step doctor Heather is it defining what you want the habit to be is it defining the environment where do we start and I you've touched on it there Zoe and there is a concept in psychology known as goal dilution so we want to add everything we want to do it all you know we think it's like you know going to the supermarket and we're just going to put it all in our basket actually that is so ineffective because the more you add in, the more you take away from your focal goal, the more you dilute its effectiveness and the more you dilute your effectiveness.

16:28I think the first step for anyone is to ask themselves, why do I want to do this in the first place? Because so often when it comes to habit change, we see someone else doing something or we're told to do something and we kind of get lost under all of the sheds rather than asking like, is this something that aligns with where I want to be in life. And I so often ask people, I'm saying like, well, what does this habit contribute towards your life? What does it give you back? Because if people can't see what it gives them back in their lives, then it's not necessarily the right thing for them to be following at that time.

17:03So if you give an example, there was a study we did a while ago where we looked at women from socially deprived communities, and they were trying to get more walking in during the day. And I spoke to them and I asked them, well, why do you want to walk more? And many of them said, oh, I want to have more steps on my fitness tracker. And I was like, okay, that's a goal, but it's not necessarily a why. And I was like, well, why do you want more steps? Oh, because you know, I want to feel fitter or I want to go outdoors more, or I want to feel more confident in myself. And I started to be like an annoying toddler.

17:34So I was like, but why, but why, but why, but why? And if you ask yourselves enough why, they often say psychology is five why's to get your true why. They start to say, well, I just want to have more confidence in myself, or I want to be a positive role model for my girls or it's something that actually gives me headspace for me and so I would say beware yourself if you're starting out on any habit change ask yourself why is this important to me what does it give me back in my life what does it allow me to do and if you can understand and resonate with those reasons those reasons are your intrinsic motivation or as I like to call your sticky motivation and intrinsic in Latin translates into goods for the soul, which I just think is a wonderful way to think about your habits.

18:16It nourishes you from the inside out. And if you can really create that intrinsic motivation, I think it's really, really good because it's a great place to start from, as opposed to a number on a scale, a number on a fitness tracker, all of those outcomes that will keep us going for like six to eight weeks. But then we never really get past that mark. We fall off because we don't feel truly aligned with where the habit is and who we're trying to be in the world. And that disconnect doesn't keep us going in the trenches. And what we really, really need to do is we really need to activate this intrinsic motivation early.

18:51Because the thing about habits are, we have loads of motivation at the start, but our habits are really low because we haven't repeated them often enough. And that motivation tanks after a couple of weeks. And what we want is for habits to take over. We want to make it as easy as possible to engage with the practices that we want to do. So we want to make them take over. And the way to do that is to make them as simple as possible. But the best first step is always to start with why. Why do I want to do this? What does it contribute to my life? How does someone know when they've got to that true why?

19:21I think you can feel it. Okay. And I know that's really annoying. But I think you can kind of say, see that, okay, actually, okay I can see what's in it for me a little bit here. It doesn't have to be a huge you know monumental why. It can be just you know it gives you more energy, gives you more focus for work, those kind of things but when if you're asking yourself why and you're thinking oh well I'm doing it for my doctor, I'm doing it because my other half says I meant to do it, oh I saw someone on Instagram doing it, I think it's kind of a cool thing to do. That isn't necessarily going to keep you going.

19:55It's fine you can still start the habit change, you can still go but you know when you're in it then ask yourself what is this giving me because if you're not getting anything from that particular activity it might be time for you to shift and often people think oh I'm such a failure I fail at my goals but actually it's just that they're picking goals that aren't the right ones for them they're picking someone else's goals and actually the why is a good filter to filter back to actually what is going to matter most to you okay incredible so we've got our true why yeah You might be in there starting simple because most of us go, right, I'm going to go six times a week to the gym.

20:31I'm going to completely cut out this food group. I am going to post on Instagram 10 times a day for the next whatever it might be. And those never work. So how do we check ourselves to start simple without, I guess it's ego getting in the way, isn't it? That's like that goal's too small or it's too easy or it's not going to make a difference. yeah it's hard because we when it comes to habit change like we such an all or nothing mindset you know we think oh well if I can't do all of the things then I'm just going to do none of the things and that's especially as a mother like that's not feasible it's just not possible and you know they they think if they can't do the perfect version of self-care then they might as well do nothing and like you say you know people will set themselves a goal let's say it's to go to the gym three times a week which is a normal goal I hear from people and I say okay that's wonderful, that's a goal, but that's your 10 out of 10 goal.

21:24What happens on a day that it's raining? What happens when you've been up overnight, when your child's been teething? What happens when you're hitting a work deadline? What happens, you know, when you're in the phase of your cycle, where you couldn't actually get out of bed? You know, what happens when life hits, which it will. So we have to create habits for the real world, not like this future perfect vision of ourselves. skills and so what I get people to often do is to scale their habits. So the three times a week going to the gym is a 10 out of 10. So I ask people what's a 9 out of 10, what's an 8, what's a 7, what's a 6, all the way down to a 1 and ultimately what's the goal that they're trying to serve here?

22:02Are they going to the gym to feel better in themselves, to have more energy, to feel more vital? Okay what else would help them serve that goal if they weren't able to go there? What else would help them feel like they're still pursuing that goal if they had less time, less energy? And so we need to design habits for the real world. And so, you know, one might be doing a couple of squats while the kettle boils, you know, a two or a three or a four might be, you know, doing a 10 minute at home video. You know, you've still got your 10 out of 10, it might be three times a week, but your nine out of 10 might be twice a week.

22:35Your eight out of 10 might be one time a week. And so for any goal, for any change that you're trying to create, don't just give yourself a linear all or nothing. Give yourself options. And I often say scaling prevents failing because then we can show up with, okay, well, what do I have time for? What do I have energy for today? And even the smallest, even those ones, it still keeps the habit alive. It still creates a sense of identity. Like I'm someone who moves. I'm someone who rests. I'm someone who cares for myself. I'm someone who's productive. I'm someone who puts myself first. You know, it still creates that identity.

23:12And again, like I said at the start, you know, habits are formed through repetition. So if we can even repeat that thing in a small way, and then talking about a small way, people often get frustrated and they're like, but how do I know it's small enough? You know, like what's a small habit? And I often say, you know, does it pass the giggle test? And what I mean by that is, is it laughably small? So there was a really interesting study that they did on dental hygiene habits and they got two groups of people and a dental hygiene habit that people really struggle with is flossing regularly so they said to one group okay for the next three months you're going to go off and floss every night and they said to the other group for the next three months you're going to go off and floss one tooth a night um which is laughably small and they followed up and they did baseline uh dental hygiene tests and then they did three month dental hygiene test and at the end of those three months guess who had the better dental hygiene scores it was the one tooth group and it was because once they'd showed up to the tooth flossing party they were like well I'm here now I've made the effort I might as well keep going everything else felt like a win everything else felt like extra on top of that it felt good it felt like they were getting that momentum and so we want to make the barriers to entry so low that they're frictionless because then it doesn't require willpower it doesn't require motivation We don't have to white knuckle our way to success.

24:29And so in order to do that, if people are trying to think about that now, okay, well, what is my one? How do I think about that small goal? It has to be small enough that you laugh about it. Even if it's something like you want to start meditating, try for one minute instead of, you know, 10. If you want to start running, try for one minute instead of 10. You can still do 10 minutes, but your minimum viable habit is one minute. You're just getting started. And that will give you the momentum. And over time, then you'll be able to repeat things because you know what your minimum viable habit is.

25:01You know what your ones, your twos and your threes are. And you know that you can show up on any kind of day, no matter what life throws at you and still succeed in those habits. And that's what helps you build that consistency to create that long term change.

25:21Do you find that when people put in that laughably small say, right, so I'm just going to do one crunch for example I mean that's that example for someone postpartum but let's say they're there do you find that actually they end up doing 10 because they're there they're doing it is that how it works because it you're sort of as you were saying with the teeth example once it's getting there that's the difficult thing for me and then once I'm there whatever it is it's like okay well I might as well do a bit more I'm here now Yeah, absolutely. It's the getting started, it's the overcoming that mental hurdle to getting started.