Nedra Glover Tawwab: Why Mothers Feel So Resentful (And The Boundaries That Change Everything)

0:00When I became a mother, my boundaries improved. I knew I had to have them to survive parenthood. Sometimes it's not people won't help you, they don't know that you need the help. Our boundaries are not to change people, it is to change ourselves. It takes quite a lot of courage, doesn't it? Sometimes people aren't giving because we've asked for nothing. I've asked my husband many times to deal with his own mum when she oversteps and he won't. Even if he's not saying anything, which is really unfortunate, what could be really helpful is... hi welcome to this episode of mother kind it is me your host zoe and this is the show that is about you the woman behind the mother and we are proudly supported by wild nutrition's women's supplements if you've ever found yourself thinking just be easier if i did it myself then this is the conversation for you because while so many of us know we need more support we know we need more help, it can actually feel really difficult to ask for it.

1:07So we want things done in a certain way and maybe we feel responsible for everything. And before we know it, we are carrying so much more than we need to. And in this episode, I am joined by Nedra Glover-Torab, therapist, relationship expert and best-selling author. Nedra has helped millions of people rethink their relationships and boundaries. And she is one of the wisest voices I know when it comes to communicating our needs with clarity and compassion. And we asked you to send in your boundary challenges and Nedra answers your challenges in this episode. So if you are someone that needs help with navigating family dynamics, guilt, people pleasing, in-laws, difficult bosses, then this is the episode for you.

1:52I hope you love it. Don't forget to share and subscribe wherever you are listening or watching to this. Here it is. I am just I'm so excited to be sat in front of you because I think you're one of the best in the world on boundaries. I've read all your books. I've binged your content for years. And I think that when you become a parent, specifically a mother, I think boundaries are so one of those things that when you get, they make the experience so much easier. And yet they are fraught with confusion and guilt. And is this OK? What can I say? How can I say it? So I just I feel so excited to bring this to my audience.

2:36So thank you for being here. Thank you for having me. I feel like when I became a mother, my boundaries improved, especially with my other relationships outside my household. Like I just I knew I had to have them to survive parenthood. It was like non-negotiable. Like, you know what? I'm responsible for a human and I have to think about some of these other things differently. Yeah, you hear that a lot. Were you a bit of a people pleaser before, would you say? Not necessarily a people pleaser, but I had more capacity to listen and tolerate things and make excuses for people. And becoming a mother was just like, I don't have time for it anymore.

3:22It was like my time was limited. So a lot of things I would like tolerate or make excuses for is like, OK, now we can't we can't do this anymore. I have other things to do. My energy has has shifted because it had to. I think that's so true. And I think it can be difficult for the people on the other side of that. I'm thinking about some of my experiences when I was first to mom and friends are like, but you used to talk to me for hours about my latest boyfriend that I was struggling with. And I'm like, I'm sorry, I just, I can't anymore. yeah how how do we handle that when our tolerance for something has changed but the other person still has those needs like they haven't changed and they expect us to be the same being honest is really helpful you know letting people know it's not you it's me I am in a new role and I'm trying to balance the old stuff and the new stuff I'm learning a lot and so the time I used to have it has changed.

4:24And it doesn't mean that we can't have a relationship, but it will look different. And letting people know. And some people understand that. I feel like, you know, my kids are 10 and 12 now. So I feel like I'm stepping back into some of my friendships in a increased capacity sort of way. Like I have some folks that I talk to every day and I had to drop some of that because work is really robust. And, you know, I had some friendships, but it's like, oh my gosh, like now I can call so-and-so. I haven't talked to them like in a year. I have time for that now. So, you know, it's seasons. If it's a really good friendship, I think when you have the conversation of things in my life are shifting, it doesn't mean that I I don't want to be there for you.

5:17But my time has changed. My time availability has shifted. And you said some people get that. What about the other camp of people? Well, we have to make them get it. You know, it's not our responsibility to make them get it. Or at what point do we just think, well, this is my boundary. And that's how we make them get it, by having our boundary and sticking to it. Yeah, sometimes people don't like it when you're not as available. or if you are more assertive or firm in what you say or do. When I think about how mothers show up in the workforce, very often we have to be more focused on how we're utilizing our time, that task that maybe used to take an hour because we know we have all these other things.

6:08We figured out a way to do it in 40 minutes because we have to go pump, because we have to do this other thing. And so, you know, some of these things we used to make space for, like maybe endlessly listening to our co-worker chat about the weekend. It's like, I have to go do this other thing because now I have more things on my plate. And so, yes, that that person may not understand. Hey, I used to listen to this endlessly. I love to hear about your dating life and all these things. But now give me the cliff notes. Like what's a what's an abbreviated version of your weekend? Because I can't upload in the same way because I'm doing more.

6:47Or how do we transition this to now we go to lunch together and you tell me about this versus stopping by and just chatting. So how do we transition that so it can fit our relationship? Because things are different. I'm listening to you and I'm like, you make it sound so easy. Why can't I just did? But it's not easy. It's not. It takes a lot of consistent practice, a lot of consistent practice and hard conversations. And, you know, when we have those conversations with the people in our lives, we'd love for it to be like, oh, yeah, sure. You have a kid. That's that makes sense. You're getting married.

7:28Oh, you're taking on a new setting. A boundary said no one ever. Yeah. Well done. Great job. Oh, yeah. I don't mind you calling me less. But it doesn't happen that way. And it does create this discomfort sometimes. But we live in this world where there are so many different ways to communicate with folks that we have the opportunity to transition and not abandon our people. So if we were talking every day, can I now move to talking once a day or talking for a shorter time and texting you? Are there some conversations where I need to send you an audio message instead of calling you? So how do we remain connected without maybe the time commitment of it?

8:18How do I get smarter about staying in touch with people? Yeah, I love that. And you talked about I'm going through the same thing. That's why I was smiling so much about reconnecting again with friends. When you're doing that, are you sort of acknowledging the fact that, you know, the seasons have changed and you're back? Or are you just sort of stepping back into that friendship as if nothing's happened? Like how much do we name what we think that our experience of that is versus just kind of flowing with the seasons? It's helpful to name it. This last book tour that I did in the U.S., I had a friend join me in Philadelphia.

8:54And we used to talk about once a week. We became mothers around the same time. And I said, I need to do a better job of reaching out. And it was on both sides. We both just sort of lost that because we got so busy. But I invited her to my book thing. We were able to hang out. And I hadn't seen her in years. So it's one of those things of acknowledging that, wow, we had something and something happened. and I want to be more committed to being in the friendship. I want to make sure I'm texting you more often that you're top of mind and not like, oh yeah, I want this to be important. And I want you to know, I know I wasn't around, right?

9:44Like it's not anything you're making up in your head. It is true. Even with some of the relationships where I may have had to say to people, You know, I'm not as available. I can now say my availability has changed. Please invite me to things again. You know, there was a time where it's like, I'm so busy with all these other things. Do not invite me because if I have a day off, I don't want to go to brunch. I don't want to go, you know, and do things. I want to relax. But now I'm in a season of, hey, I mentioned a few years ago, don't invite me to anything or minimize the invites. I'm back, y 'all.

10:26I'm back. Please add me to the list. Put me down for bringing something to the gathering. I am available. I am here now. It takes quite a lot of courage, doesn't it? If you haven't spoken to a friend for two or three years or sometimes longer to reach back out again. did it take you courage did you feel worried that that person was going to be like are you randomly reaching out i don't want anything to do with you is no because nothing bad happened okay you know i think there's a difference like if there was some offense in the relationship right like we had to have a conversation around your behavior and my behavior but this was just a losing touch and i think that's a great distinction for people yeah This was just a losing touch.

11:14You can have that courage if you have lost touch with someone. Just reach out. Yeah, just reach out. And I think most people will be happy to hear from you. I don't think it'll be like, oh, my gosh, well, since you haven't called me in four months, I don't want to talk to you. It's like we can talk now. You know, there's nothing significant that exploded in our relationship because very often it's a two-way street. They stop calling you and you stop calling them. So it's not all on you. It is, you know, two people in the relationship. And so if that happened, can we make space for wanting to be more connected?

11:55So good. It's so good. And you've talked about boundaries are the gateway to healthy relationships. But I'm wondering, how do you actually define a boundary? I define boundaries as our needs, wants, expectations in our relationships with others and in our relationship with ourselves. Sometimes we speak our boundaries to other people and sometimes we behave what our boundary is. We cannot make people do things. We can make requests and we can stand firm in who we are. But our boundaries are not to change people. it is to change ourselves. They can change our relationship, but we can't make people do anything.

12:45And I think sometimes with boundaries, we feel like it's a way to make this person do something. And very often we're disappointed because we're like, they won't change. They won't adhere to my boundary. And I always say, well, what did you do? What did you do to execute your boundary? Was there an ultimatum? If they violated the boundary, what did you say to them? What are you doing to make sure that your boundaries are seen and heard in the world? Yeah, because I think there's one thing. Well, the reason I find this quite difficult and I have done, if I'm honest, historically, is like, what is okay for me?

13:26What are my needs? And I think particularly as mothers, right, when you get through the fog of maybe you've got six, seven, eight, nine, you're like, what are my needs? Is that where we start? You say to start looking at resentments. How are those two connected? Well, resentment is telling you that you are upset about something. The something is whatever you're resenting, right? What you mentioned is, I don't know what my boundaries are, which I always think is interesting. Like if I'm working with a mother and she's like, I'm so overwhelmed. I don't have help with anything. I need some support.

14:09Okay. Then you, your boundaries need to be about around getting more support. Sometimes it's not, people won't help you. They don't know that you need the help. Have you asked for help when people are offering? Are you accepting the help? Have you pulled in your partner? Are you micromanaging them. Sometimes we're micromanaging people, which gets in the way of us being able to get any help. And so the boundary might actually be for you and not, oh my gosh, I need to talk to all these other people. It's like, how do I talk myself through releasing control? So good. And a massive one, I think. Yeah.

14:49I think for women, it's very set up in society for us to be the queen of our domain, right? The queen of the castle, so to speak. Like we manage the children, we manage the household. And so not only do we have that expectation, our children have it, our partners have it, like it is just a part of the stuff. And it is overwhelming. It is exhausting. And so we have to figure out a way, How do I show up in my queendom as a supported queen? How do I show up and receive help from other people? I am not alone. There are people in my village, in my community that can support me, even if I am the person who is in charge because, you know, your partner's in charge, the children are in charge of themselves, like we're all in charge of something.

15:44And so it's not this independent role that you have. It's really about how do I utilize my supports? How do I, you know, if you have the means, how do I, you know, get more support from other people, whether I have to pay for that or I have to elicit some support from friends and family? How do I step back so they can actually help? A really helpful exercise for people who have difficulty figuring out what their needs are is to think about the task at hand. You're having a gathering. OK, so if you're having a gathering, what are the parts of that? It's inviting. It's figuring out a menu, deciding what people will do when they get there.

16:30OK, you want to invite so-and-so and so-and-so. Do you have to initiate the invites or do you need to give someone else the list to actually invite the people? If you have a menu, are you preparing the food? Will the food be catered? Are you asking everyone to bring a dish? How do you elicit support? But if it's like I have to plan a party and do all the stuff. Yeah, you're going to be upset when people are walking around laughing and you're like, they didn't even say thank you yet. yeah it's like they're not even excited enough and it's like you didn't have to plan the whole thing yourself yeah there are other people who could have supported you in this bring them in pull them in so you're not so overwhelmed with the task and what if and I hear this quite a lot from my community is they'll say I get that but then when they're asking partners friends they're not showing up in the way that feels good enough.

17:34Is that another boundary, which is like when you agree to do the cooking, you actually have to make, you know, X, Y, Z, or whatever it is. Or is that us putting our expectation on someone else? Well, it could be a little bit of both. Are we asking a competent person? Do they actually have the skill set to help us with the tasks that we're requesting? That's really important because if we're giving someone a task who actually can't do it, we've never seen them do it, but we think they need to figure it out for this thing. Yeah, we might be creating a little bit of a disappointment there, right?

18:12But if we are giving someone who has demonstrated that they can follow through on this task, the task, I would wonder if we've been clear. because sometimes we're not being clear enough. Like you may say to your partner, hey, I want you to plan our next vacation. But what if they're coming to you and telling you all the things? What do you think about Turks and Caicos? What do you think? And you're like, oh my gosh, I said plan the vacation. So now you need to say, hey, I want you to plan the vacation without my input, but I'll tell you a few things to get you started. I do want to go to a beach for six days.

18:52but you don't have to come to me and go through you know so you have to help people along in their process of helping you and remove yourself from it so we do have to make some statements around i trust that you can get this done here is you know the additional information that might be helpful but i don't need to be the eyes and ears on this thing yeah it's so good i actually asked for some listener questions and we got so many because I think boundaries is so raw with kind of guilt and confusion and what's okay and not okay and so I actually feel like boundaries is one of those things that is so good the more specific we can get so let me give you some of these and then I think it'll lead us into other territories the first one is my sister treats me like free childcare and emotional support.

19:49And she gives nothing back to the point where this person has started dreading her calls. She says, how do I set a boundary without blowing the family up? Wow. I have some counter questions. My first question is this person is saying their sister doesn't give anything in return. What do you want? Have you identified something that you need or some support that you would like to receive. Like, for instance, maybe it's when you call to ask me for something, I want you to also inquire about how I'm doing, what's going on in my life. So being able to communicate, I want to be able to help you and I want you to have some sort of interest in my life, if that's what you want, right?

20:42So first, figuring out what you want. If they're giving nothing in return, what are they supposed to give? Because sometimes people aren't giving because we've asked for nothing. We seem like we're this helpful individual without any problem or issue with it. And so they say, angry doormat. Yeah, you're an angry doormat. Yeah, you're an angry doormat. And so this person is coming to you because this has been the course of your relationship and you've not had any pushback. And so if you want something, insinuate it. Put it out there. Be assertive about it. Hey, I haven't heard from you. I got a new job.

21:23You didn't say anything about my new job or my new position. Put it out there. The other thing is your sister is using you as if you are free child care. So I'm assuming the boundaries would be I don't want to do it as often. I want to be paid for it. I don't know. Maybe the boundary is I only want to do it when I want to do it. Right. Like I don't want to do it as a supplement to the child care you need to pay for. I want to do it as an aunt where it's, hey, I want to take the kids to. Yeah. I want to take it's fun. Yeah, it's fun rather than it's an obligation or even needed as a part of your ability to function in life.

22:15So figuring out what level of support are you willing to have, if any, because it might be I don't want to do it at all or this is how I want to do it. And so going into it with clarity is important. if you're worried about blowing the family up, it sounds like, well, I'm happy to hear there are other people who can provide childcare because right now it's all on you. So if they're concerned about your reduction, guess what they have to do? Some babysitting. It sounds like there are other people in the mix who can do what the aunt here is doing. So whether it's your parents or other siblings, It's like, yeah, they're them being upset might be a good thing.

23:03Now they have a new job and you have less of a job. But but speaking to it in a very clear way, you know, I've been and you may start with I've been thinking about some some spaces where I need to tighten up my boundaries. And one of the things that I'm thinking is I want to I want to start spending more time with my friends. I want to have space in my day after work. And so what that might look like is me not being available on Thursdays for child care. I like the way you open that because that felt like kind but clear. I know Brennan Brown says clear and kind. But it sounds like, hey, I've been thinking about not.

23:51I need to. So that you're not going to elicit as much as defense back potentially. Yeah, or not saying I don't want to watch your kid anymore. Yeah. Because it's like, whoa, that was rough. So really making it about you because it is about you. Yes. It's about me and how I want to spend my time. So give them some ideas of how you want to spend your time. I would like to spend my time reading more, learning how to cook. And as a result of that, I may not be available on these days at these times. Like tell them about your issue and not them being the problem. The problem is you always asking me things.

24:37No, you don't want to do it. And that's fine. You don't have to do it. And you can own. I don't want to do it. Yeah, I love that because it's like in that question, it's all about the sister. and what you've done there just unpacking it is actually turn that spotlight back onto the person asking a question right which is like well actually what does work for you what do you need and how are you going to communicate that it's good okay this is this this is one that i think a lot of people face this one is i've asked my husband many times to deal with his own mum when she oversteps and he won't.

25:16He says she won't change. She is who she is. So why bother? This person says, what am I supposed to do when my own partner won't back me up? That is tough. Best case scenario, your partner handles their family and their challenges with you and their family. And when you have to step in, it can be tough, but it's also necessary because you're a part of the household. You're a part of the relationship dynamic. So if his mother is doing something to impact your household, it is now your space to step in and manage what that is, even if he's not saying anything, which is really unfortunate. What could be really helpful is to talk to your partner around, here's what I'm thinking of saying to your mom.

26:12I know that you feel like this is a hopeless situation and she is the way she is. I just want to bring it to her attention, right? I want to bring it to her attention, what's happening here and what we would prefer. So not just presenting the problem to her, but here's what we'd like to see going forward. Sometimes when it's our family, we have blind spots, right? In terms of this person is capable of change. Our family members live, work in the world. They have friends. Clearly, they can change and get along with people, right? It's like, your mom is great at work. You know, they love her. So she's doing some good things in the world.

26:57She can do those good things here. So it's really a matter of, I get it. Some people are unwilling to change. And sometimes they're unwilling to change for us. But is she unwilling to change for her daughter-in-law? Is she unwilling to change for her grandchildren? Those are different relationships. So being able to talk about not just the problem, because her children may have tried to address the need for some changes in the way that wasn't effective. Maybe you have different skills and you can go into it and be gentle and kind and firm. You could say something that could move her in a different way than even her own child has.

27:42So it's not a hopeless situation where she is the way she is. Well, what is the problem and what is the solution? So if she's overbearing, speaking exactly to the challenge you're having, if you see us make a decision with our son, it would be very helpful to us. if you had commentary to maybe not speak in that moment because we don't want to create any divisiveness. And when our child hears that, they start to wonder who's the authority in the room. A lot of people are going to want to write that script down. They can have it. They can have it. But speaking to the exact problem every time it occurs.

28:28Now, here's the difficult part. We like to think, I've told them one time about this thing. Well, you'll have tons of other, we'll never get to the end of placing boundaries with people because there's so many scenarios. That's one thing. That was about conflict with them around them observing some parenting stuff and speaking on it. Then you might have to talk to them about giving your kids certain foods. Then you might have to talk to them about giving your kids certain sweets. Then you might have to talk to them about how to manage your child's allergies. And is that normal? Yeah. Okay, that's good to know.

29:10Because I think there's kind of a narrative, isn't there? Maybe on social media and kind of in the media that, you know, we should set one boundary with someone and then. It lasts forever. Yes. It has no expiration date. Yes. Well, you know, we're all different. And I don't know about you, but I know for me, when I'm trying to do something new, I fail at it a lot before I achieve it. And the people that we're trying to give our boundaries to is the same with them. They fail a lot before they're actually able to achieve it. If I say I'm going to drink eight glasses of water a day, I probably do four and then I'll do like five.

29:55Then I might hit eight and then I'm back to six. And then, you know, it's like this this thing. But with other people, we expect perfection initially and we just wanted to keep going. Always perfect. But with ourselves, we do have a little more grace. We're like, well, you had a busy day. You had a busy day and you really tried and that one cup, I mean, it fell on the ground. It's like, it's not your fault. But for other people, that level of grace and understanding, we don't extend it. You know, with our parents, sometimes they're able to operate differently depending on the child. So you may have your, you know, in that scenario, that person's sister-in-law may allow the mother to do different things.

30:43And so now this in-law is having to balance all of these different rules in different folks' household, right? I never thought of that for the grandparents. She's a grandparent, right? She's thinking about, right, I can give them chocolate at that son's house. I can't at my daughter's. No chocolate here. Okay, no eggs and no. I have two kids and I forget. I'm like, okay, who doesn't like ramen? Which one of you doesn't like ramen? And I only have two. So I can imagine, you know, trying to figure out all the rules along with they very likely feel like they're an expert because they've raised a human who probably did a lot of things and they've had in-laws or they've had, you know, so their experience in the world shapes the way in which they show up.