Success isn't linear: 5 steps to finally start defining your own path with The Squiggly Career experts

0:07Welcome to Motherkind. We are proudly sponsored by Wild Nutrition women's supplements. I am your host Zoe Blaski and this is the show that's going to grab you by the hand and be your guide through the wild ride that is modern motherhood. Every week I bring you world leading experts and thinkers to give us new ideas, new tools, new support, new inspiration for our lives as mothers. We span everything from work to relationships to mental health and healing to parenting and I am very happy that you are here. This is the Motherkind work mini-series which you have all been loving especially the first episode of the series where I shared for the first time ever my journey from exiting corporate to starting motherkind so if you haven't listened to that definitely go back and check it out in fact go back and check out all the series so far we're three episodes in and it is going to be so supportive wherever you are on your work motherhood path so on to this episode I'm so excited for you to hear this one it is with Helen Tupper and Sarah Ellis he will probably know from their best-selling book, Squiggly Careers.

1:10In this episode, you are going to learn what makes a career squiggly, the non-linear route to success, the different ways motherhood has impacted Sarah and Helen's ambition and careers, and how they made the transition from corporate into running their own careers consultancy, and the amazing, quite surprising advice they have for anyone wanting to do the same thing. You're also going to learn the five key skills that you need to have a squiggly career and how to develop them if you want to pivot, experiment with your work or change careers. I loved this episode. It's honest, it's packed full of practical advice and I hope it's going to leave you with inspiration and hopefully a feeling of possibility for your own squiggly career.

1:58Please do share this episode if you loved it. Pop it in your mum's WhatsApp group, pop it on LinkedIn. There is so much noise and pressure and judgment out there for us mothers. Let's be the mums. Let's be those people that are spreading positivity and possibility. I hope you love it. Here it is. And just a quick note from me before we get into the episode, I messed up the technical elements of recording this. So it wasn't actually recording the audio through my mic. So the audio is not of the usual standard, amazing mother coin quality. And for that, I am very sorry, but I hope that it does not detract from the amazing wisdom and insights that we share in this episode.

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3:25You can use smart tracking tools for pregnancy, baby care, and even your menstrual cycle, covering sleep, weaning, nappies, contraction timings, and more. 93 % of users feel better informed about their pregnancy and postpartum. It's free to download and there are loads of amazing free tools and content. So go ahead and discover everything it has to offer. If you would like the premium version, you can get a month's free with the code MOTHERKINDMAY. May. That's Motherkind May. Valid until July the 31st. Oh, Sarah, Helen, welcome. I'm so excited. I have been following you and your work from afar for a long time.

4:07So I cannot wait to hear your wisdom and insights today. Thanks for being here. Thank you for having us. I want to start with what drives you. What's your why? Why do you do this work in the world and who are you most passionate about helping? Sarah, you go first. I'm quite interested in your answer. I don't know if I've heard it. So I think I've had a squiggly career, unsurprisingly. So I've worked in lots of different teams, lots of different companies, mainly really big companies before Helen and I took the plunge to run our own company. And actually, I think my why has always been about creating.

4:44So having ideas that feel useful in some way. Now, what I do now is having ideas around careers and learning and career development that feel useful for people and thinking a bit about where they want to go, making sure they feel meaningful and motivated in the work that they do. But I think kind of zooming out from where I am today, I do really like creating. I really like the space to kind of have ideas. And so that's almost quite a selfish why. I think, you know, when you ask that question, maybe sometimes there's a pressure to feel like you should have a big grand purpose. And I don't know, I'm never sure about that.

5:22I think I want to feel purposeful in the work that I do. And I want to connect that to something that I'm good at, where I see that I can be useful. And for me, that has always been about creating in some way, even though I've had like a very kind of corporate career. So you definitely could look at the jobs that I've done in the companies I've worked for. And I'm not sure people would necessarily from a distance go, oh, she's really creative. But I do think that is that is what I'm motivated by. It reminds me of that, Icai, Icai, I can never say it right now. No one can, but we all know what we mean.

5:54Those sort of, you know, circles that interlock when it's, you know, we find something that is meaningful, that people want, and that plays into our strengths. And I really heard that in your answer that you sort of got those three boxes, which is probably why you've been, you know, doing it so successfully for the time that you have what about you Helen I think mine um it's it's slightly different though I know I know that this is also be sort of a deeper part of kind of what drives Sarah um but I think I am very motivated to help people fulfill their potential like and that would have been like pre-amazing if like as a manager in a company before I was doing what we now do together the best part of my job was talking to my team and helping unlock their opportunities for them because I think a lot of the time when we're talking to groups or individuals, it's either a lack of visibility of what they could be, or it's a lack of confidence to go after the opportunities.

6:49And I feel like the power to help somebody fulfill their potential is, for me, is very, very rewarding. And it's actually why, Sarah and I spend time with like thousands and thousands of people doing career development. And actually, it's the email I get from one person. The one person email, we do Win of the Week every Friday. and often my win of the week will be like one email that someone has sent me and it'll be about something they've done off the podcast or like last night I was speaking at an event and someone came to talk to us talk to me about our podcast and it's that like one person conversation that one person's potential who's been changed by something we've done that I find that fulfilling over and over and over again and even when we have hard days those like little moments of someone saying this made a difference to me I'm better because of this oh that's the thing that I I don't want to lose that feeling ever so I keep doing this business so we get to keep doing that yeah I'm the same actually and I think you know lots of people say to me how have you been doing the podcast like I've never missed a week for eight years and it's only because of those messages and so I think it's so easy to you know listen to something like this and think oh that was incredible but I would really encourage people to send just those messages because it really does it really does help us keep going it really does so what is a squiggly career how have your squiggly careers intercepted with motherhood?

8:09So squiggly careers are really about giving people the freedom and flexibility to develop in a direction that is right for them. And the reason we need squiggly careers is for a long time, we've been presented with the idea of the career ladder, this kind of construct that says up is the only way, success is all about seniority, you've got to conform to one idea of a career in order for it to be good. And that idea of the ladder doesn't really reflect the reality of work. It's not that predictable. It's not that linear. It also doesn't reflect people's individuality. Not everybody wants to be senior.

8:43People want to do different things. They want to have open conversations. And so squiggly careers, really, it's just a way of giving people permission. That's what a lot of people say to us. Like squiggly careers gives me permission to talk about my development differently, to be open about other things I want to do. And I think what we have then done is we've taken this sort of concept of squiggly careers, and we've put a lot of skills behind it. So how do we help people develop the skills to succeed in squiggly careers? And then we've also now, you know, we work with lots of companies on structures, how do you create structures to support people to succeed in squiggly careers?

9:14But it really does start with that idea of lose the ladder, help people to develop in the direction that is right for them. That's where it all came. And I think perhaps to build on your, the second part of your question around squiggly careers and being a mum I think a lot we do find squiggly careers are for everyone and they are everyone's reality we talk to people all across the world at loads of different stages in their career and everyone identifies with you know there's no such thing as a straight line to success we all develop in different directions I just wonder whether sometimes as a mum that the connection of a squiggly career happens very quickly because your life gets quite squiggly um you know this big moment or kind of shift in your life there's kind of a very clear before and after but yeah I read something the other day about like before kids and after kids which I can definitely still remember and I think at that moment and it's not just for mums I think it's for anyone who's kind of caring or parents generally your priorities of course change in some way there's kind of a new a new area to consider and it's not something the way you can usually just act exactly the same as you did before for the majority of people there are some different decisions or some kind of choices like how do we kind of how do I make my kind of life now all work together now I don't think that means that you stop being motivated and I really remember having a conversation with somebody where my number one value is achievement and Helen's number one value is achievement.

10:45And my number one value after having Max, my little boy, was still achievement. And I am as driven and as motivated now as I was when I was 25. I'm probably more driven and motivated, actually, than I probably always got it in me, but it's probably more obvious and kind of evident now. So I don't know. I think maybe I think it's a very kind of personal perspective. You do hear some people say, oh, you know, all of my priorities changed that wasn't true for me that wasn't my experience I was probably the same what I had to then just figure out though was then but I still want to be present for my little boy and I still want to be there for the moments that matter that's kind of a phrase that I use and like also what does this mean for me like in terms of my life and not feeling the pressure to sort of do what other people do and I think you sometimes do get questions I do remember quite a few times when I first had Max, the head tilt, the classic head tilt of, I went back to work full time quite quickly, because I wanted to.

11:46And when I would tell people that they'd give me the head tilt and be like, Oh, that's a shame, you know, like head to the side. And I'd be like, not for me, it's not because it's, it's exactly what I want to do. And so you know, somehow you are suddenly going, Oh, wow, I'm being judged in a way that I wasn't being judged before, and maybe got pressures from outside that I also don't need in a moment that is already quite pressured. So it's funny, like the amount that you have to kind of deal with, I think, particularly when you're, or for me, when I was a newer parent, and actually I have made some very intentional decisions that are quite different, I think, to other people around what it means to be a mum and to work and to run a company and to spend time with Helen growing Amazing If and scaling amazing if, which wouldn't work for most people, but they do really work for me.

12:35So suddenly, I just think you've got a sort of cacophony of choices and decisions to make at a moment where also you're getting no sleep, let's face it. Yeah. Do you mind if we stay there for a minute? Because I think that's so interesting because this is what I, you know, we're all coaches. And so of course we're obsessed with people making intentional decisions as opposed to just being sort of carried along. And I'm wondering, how did you make those intentional decisions? What were they? And how did you handle all the noise, which is so loud as you're alluding to? Yeah, I think for me, and Helen will probably reflect on something similar.

13:11I think knowing your values, which are values can found quite abstract or quite hard to get your hands around. But values are really just what motivates and drives you. They're kind of makes you you. And when your values are part of your life, your work life and your home life, you are just happier. You know, like your job satisfaction, your life satisfaction goes up. And I did know my values by the time I had my little boy. So the things that matter most to me are achievement, ideas, learning and variety. So one of the reasons I didn't enjoy maternity leave is I had very low levels of variety when I was on maternity leave, because Max, my little boy, We had acid reflux, meant I couldn't go out very much.

13:51So I was really unhappy, but at least I knew why, which actually did help me. Like I wasn't very happy, but I knew why. And I also knew then what I could do about it. So I got help very quickly. So speed dialed to my mum, who doesn't live that close to me, who suddenly I was like, yes, I need you to come help me, please. And credit to her, she absolutely kind of turned up when I needed her. I got some part-time help from a lady who was also pregnant, but was a primary school teacher. So I was not phased at all in the same way that I was phased by this kid being sick all the time. So I could ease my way back into work a bit quicker.

14:27And also I was thinking about kind of the job that I wanted to do next. So I definitely used my values as a filter for my future, for my decisions. And then also to feel really confident about the decisions that I was making, even when I felt like maybe other people might be judging me or being like, well, everyone else seems to cope. okay you know my my sister had um her little girl and she said the first year of like may her little girl being born best year ever she like loved it she loved maternity leave she's like i can't and she's about to have another baby in two weeks she's like i can't wait to have another maternity leave and i'm like the last thing i would ever want is another maternity leave because i think everyone's experiences are just so different and so i think that those values are really helpful and I think the other thing that helped me was having people to talk to who are on your side and want you to succeed so you know like non-judgmental friends who are just like they're just there to listen and to support you and I've got one particular friend who at that time I think was just she was sort of always there and actually she what she did brilliantly was she sort of forced her way into being there even when I couldn't quite tell her that I needed her and I think that I needed that at that moment I needed someone to be like how are you doing and you've got a bit quiet you know like noticing that perhaps I wasn't quite myself and also kind of giving me like the nudges sometimes the nice nudges to be like well if you're not that happy why don't you get some help and why don't you start doing a bit of work a bit sooner because you like love work and it's a big part of who you are and so she gave me those nice nudges but I don't think I was quite I don't think I quite had the mental capacity to ask for that in that moment.

16:06So I think we all need that friend. And it's not always the person you think, but she was very good in that moment. Well, I keep thinking about the word permission as I'm listening to your story. I just love that you gave yourself that permission because I think so many of us put ourselves in this prison of how we should feel and what we should want. And I just love that you used your values to sort of release yourself from that cage. What about you, you, Helen? Yeah, I think I'm always not wary of kind of saying, well, this worked for me. But I think the important thing is it's recognizing what works for you might not work for everybody.

16:39But what has worked for me? I got some advice. I was thinking about having children and I was in a job where I was traveling a lot. And I was talking to a conversation with a mentor who was running a company and whose husband worked in the company that I worked in was also traveling a lot. And I had a chat with her and I said, look, you know, I'm thinking about having children. I've got absolutely no idea how I'm supposed to continue this career that I'm in that I really care about and you know Sarah said you know really ambitious driven by achievement I cannot connect my career with having a family and I remember she said to me Helen you can do everything you want to do like you don't she didn't say the whole you know like I think sometimes a narrative like you're gonna have to make choices you're gonna have to compromise she didn't say that to me and it was the right thing to say to me because I don't respond very well to like compromising she said you don't have to you don't have to stop doing what you're doing you so she said you do need to invest in the absolute best child care you can have and you don't want to be asking for favors or could you just could you possibly could you pick up at three so if you want to keep doing what you are doing and being as committed to your career then you need rock solid child care around you and she said it with such clarity and in a way that no one else had said that to me like no everyone else had gone there oh it'll be okay you'll find a way that kind of thing she's like no no no don't put yourself in a position where you're asking for favors and you're making it work and you're juggling puzzle pieces.

17:55You want to keep doing what you're doing. Your priority is rock solid childcare. And so I was like, right, okay, I'm going to get a nanny. I didn't, you know, I didn't have a nanny when I was growing up. There's like a new thing for me. I was like, right, I'm going to do it. And I researched it. And you know, the cost of my nanny was more than my mortgage. It was like the most expensive thing at that time in my life. And I found a nanny who has been with us for 10 years. And my career since then, and I've moved companies within that time and launched and scaling a business with Sarah in that time.

18:24And this person has been a real consistent support for my family during the last 10 years. And that has been a huge enabler for me. And I have had to, along the way, accept that she's played a role in my children's life. I haven't played it. I didn't do the drop-offs and I didn't go to some of the baby clubs and you do there are moments when I have to kind of go oh you know there's definitely some some moments where I think oh I didn't quite get there for that but then I also think you do I think you do have to get comfortable with your choices because other people can judge you and you can also judge yourself and then you just end up like then you just don't no one's happy are they and so I think I don't I sort of tune out of other people's judgment I have this quote of like run your own race and I'm running my own race and I don't really get affected by that and I try not to criticize myself for decisions that I have made and that doesn't mean I don't change things along the way but um I so appreciate that advice that I got that time because of the impact that it's had on the decisions I've made and like how how my family now operates I love that you say getting comfortable with your choices I feel like motherhood, you know, work, outside work, the whole thing is really that is just central to it, isn't it?

19:42Because it's so easy to be like, oh, I didn't do it this way. I sleep trained, I didn't. I weaned this way, I didn't. I went back to work, then I didn't. And I think if you're not comfortable with the choices that you're making, you can, and I see it in my community, spirals so quickly downwards because there is infinite choices. You've done it one way. You know, in my book, the second chapter is called Get On Your Own Side, because I think it's the fundamental skill of thriving in motherhood is you have to be able to do what you've just described, Helen, which is like, and I just decided I'm going to make a choice and then get on my own side with it.

20:15It's so vital, isn't it? Tell me about guilt, because I know this is something that, you know, people talk about unjustly around working mothers and, you know, working parents in general. Is it something you experience and how do you handle it? I personally, I don't think I have high levels of guilt. I don't, I don't, I have these like rules. So if I break my rules, then I feel bad. I don't know if that's guilt, but if I break my rules, then I feel bad. Maybe that's guilt. So the sort of rules that I operate with are I'm in more than I'm out and weekends of family. So what that means is I'm quite a social person.

20:51I love, I love connecting with people. I love that my work gives me the opportunity to do that. So two nights in a week, I am probably out. So I was out last night speaking at an event and I'm out tomorrow night meeting a friend. And that is my two nights out this week. And the three nights in the week, I will be at home and I will be putting my children to bed and I'll be reading stories and I'll be hearing about everything that's random that's gone on in their day. So as long as I stick to that rule, I'm happy. When I break that rule, I feel a bit bad. I'm like, hmm, did you make the right call?

21:19And then weekends of a family, I've got really comfortable with work is very dominant in my week. Like we are growing a business. I love our business. I love our work. I do my first training sessions this morning at 7am and I love that. And so I'm okay with work being dominant in the week, but weekends are for family. And even Sarah and I don't, we, I mean, we, in the week we message each other, goodness knows how many times a day. I do not know. Our WhatsApp chat is like chat, chat, chat, but the weekend we're quiet we're relatively quiet with each other because that for me is taking my daughter to the drama and I'm doing family did and I'm I am all in family at the weekend and I don't really feel guilt as long as I kind of stick to those boundaries I've made for myself but when I break them if I'm like occasionally we have to travel at the weekend if we're going somewhere and I do that does create a bit of a twinge for me but it doesn't happen very often And I do that very consciously.

22:14I think that's the key with guilt, isn't it? Is that you have to set those boundaries and decide what your rules are. I absolutely love that. I think that's going to help so many people. What about you, Sarah? Yeah, I don't think I feel that guilty either. I think like maybe this is why Helen and I are okay. I don't know. I don't know. I think partly I look at my son's life and I'm like, well, he's got an awesome life. If anything, he should feel grateful, not guilty. like I'd quite like a thank you letter that won't be coming either so I think partly I feel I think I feel proud that I have set up our family in a life that I think is a really good one for everyone for me and for my son and for my partner and I think a bit like Helen I have different boundaries to Helen but knowing each other's boundaries are helpful I'm much more introverted so being sociable doesn't matter as much to me.

23:07So that's less of an issue. But things like I do have this moments that matter phrase in my head, I decide what I think those are. And so where Max has like an assembly, I want to be there for that. And there's basically no work that could come my way that would make me miss that. It would be incredibly rare. And I'd be angry and annoyed if I had to miss that. And Helen's like, she's like nodding, she like knows. So there's not that many of those moments but there are just certain bits where I'm like well no that matters to me and it matters to Max so I'll be there for that I also remember talking to we interviewed a guy called Dr Bill Mitchell and one of the things that he said about being resilient is you always need to do one thing every day for yourself that's like purely selfish basically so it's not like you're going oh I'm doing something for someone else which I think sometimes mums and parents are very good at doing lots of things for other people you know they're constantly supporting and constantly caring for other people and I do make sure that pretty much every day I think I do something that is just for me whether that's like going for a walk by myself going to get a nice coffee because I like doing that going to I don't know reform a pilates whatever it might be and I think that helps me not feel guilty because then I'm sort of more present the rest of the time I've got more energy we can I talk a lot about energy like make sure that we've got enough energy for everything one of the things that we are both really mindful of is we don't want to go into weekends completely drained and depleted and that would be really easy for us to do we do work a lot and we work hard and so if you've kind of drained everything then your family are basically getting the worst version of you I would feel guilty about that that would make me feel guilty so when my little boy wants to play five games one after the other, badminton to tennis to whatever the next game is.

25:00And I mean, that was literally my life. He just goes from game to game to game. I don't want to be thinking like I'm exhausted or I'm just not up for this. I want to be able to give him the energy that I also give to our partners when we're doing big learning things. So we both spend quite a lot of time quite intentionally managing our energy more than we do managing our time. How do you do that? Well, I think that does look different. probably it definitely looks different for both of us so I look I get a lot of energy from spending time with people but I reboot by spending time by myself so a part of managing my energy is being by myself also like just generally moving so I'm not I like variety I don't like being in one place all day after this I'm going for a walk so I'm just like I factor walks into my day they're literally in my diary and things don't go over them so I do try to kind of protect them that really protects my energy sort of doing some things that are sort of just following my curiosity that gives me energy whether that's like a curious career conversation some learning that I'm interested in just going to something that's just sort of going to get me out of my day-to-day that often gives me energy so I think I know I I because I've thought about it a lot I know the things that give me energy and I know when I need moments to sort of you know like plug the battery back in basically And I can spot now in my weeks, okay, that's going to be, I will have maxed out then.

26:23So I've got to have some recovery time, otherwise I won't be able to keep going. But yeah, my, my plugging the laptop battery in looks very different to Helen's. Yeah. I call this energy blueprint because it is so unique for each person, isn't it? What about you, Helen? What's on your blueprint? People and Peloton. People and Peloton. On absolute repeat. so I need I need I need to spend time with people like I'd like last night's event was amazing and it was such a busy day and it was in the evening and I was just so like I met all these amazing people and they've all been in touch today and I'm so fueled by that and you know then I've got two other things like I said on Thursday and Friday I meet and get a couple of other people and those moments of connection and conversation that actually don't really have anything to do with work that I find those refueling really refueling and then and then Peloton which is you know I've been like I didn't say all laugh because we've known each other for like 20 years exercise did not used to be part of my thing I was not that and then in a part like I don't think it's like 2019 I got a Peloton and since then it's changed my life because there's not PR for Peloton but generally I don't really know from a health thing but from a mental health thing it has changed my life rather than a physical in that I put it on it's like you know 30 45 minutes of me listening to some music I'll just put it on as loud as I can and I don't know sometimes it's so embarrassing sometimes I'll clap they're like clap and I'm like yes I'm like why are you clapping this is this is a pre-recorded session and I'm just clapping but I honestly obviously it's the endorphins but it just makes me it creates something in me that then I can take to other people and if I didn't create that I'd start to run on empty a little bit so I need a I need a bit of both but it's funny that Sarah said like we've had we've had quite a busy week my last meeting tonight is at 6.15 and I'm with I've got to get to the kids at 6.45 so I've got I've looked at I was like that's a slot I've even got my leggings on now Zoe I'm ready I'm ready to go for my 6.15 Peloton because I just know that that is going to help me tomorrow it's that like clarity people in Peloton.

28:27I love thinking about managing energy not time I think it's so foundational for working mothers and I also love that we're talking about just so many other things that align with mother clive around values and just owning your choices I think it's kind of the only way to to thrive actually

28:53I want to talk about shifting gear and talk more about the skills that you've developed because I think they're so important for us to understand if we're going to have this squiggly career, which most of us probably are, what are the skills that underpin that career? So if we think about someone who's listened to this, who knows that she wants to make a change in her career, which I think so many mothers do. I don't know if you see that, but from my vantage point, almost every mother that I speak to is like, I'm in this job, but I want to do this. And I'm wondering what are the skills that underpin being able to make those pivots and those squiggles?

29:32So there are five skills that are most fundamental to succeed in a squiggly career. They're not the only things that you need to know, but these ones will make the biggest difference to someone's development. And they are equally important, but they're not all equally important to everyone at the same time. So there could be ones that have got a bit of a spike for people. But I'll kind of go through them and talk about what they are and why they matter. The first one you've already mentioned, so the first one's values, knowing what makes you, you. And the reason this is important is because, you know, ladder-like definitions of success said seniority was important for everybody.

30:01That was what drove everybody. But now in Squiggly, we're trying to think, well, what actually does motivate and drive you? If you're going to have a career as individual as you are, we need to put that at the heart of your Squiggly career. So if, you know, Sarah's number one values achievement, how do we design Sarah's career? So there's loads of achievement in there. There's loads of ideas is in there. So values is at the heart of a squiggly career is what makes you you. Then you've got strengths. This is about what gives you energy and what do you want to be known for? And this really drives the direction of your development.

30:32So we want you to think about how do I use my talents to take me forward in a ladder like career is your titles, right? So I did this job, and therefore I can do that job gets limiting really quickly, because everything has to sound similar and a bit more senior. But when you start with your talents, where can my talents take me? Suddenly, you unlock a very different way of thinking about your development. And if you make your strengths stand out, it's like a magnet, you start pulling more things towards you. It's really powerful way of people thinking about development when you start with strengths.

31:03Then the third one, confidence. What is really interesting about confidence as a skill is it is the thing that Sarah and I have sort of inadvertently talked and written the most about. and it's because it's such a challenge for people. I often think it's the difference between knowing and doing. So people might know what their values are and they might know what they want to be known for, but they might not do anything different if confidence is getting in the way. And we have this whole language around confidence gremlins, like the common beliefs that hold people back, the fear of failure, the fear of not knowing enough, the need to be liked by people, there's a whole load of these gremlins that are getting in people's ways.

31:42and what we have learned is that if you can surface the gremlin you can get to know your gremlin a bit like what it is when it's showing up you can start to cage it and there are practical things you can do so that your gremlin has less power over you and that's kind of the real skill there cage the gremlin fourth one is about networking it's about building a community around your career most of our opportunities for learning and for growth are not advertised on an intranet that don't come directly to our inbox. Here, Helen, is your perfect opportunity. It comes through me chatting to you and going, oh, Zoe, I'm doing this.

32:15Do you know anyone who? And then you create a connection for me. But if we don't have the community, we can't create the connections and we don't create the opportunities. So there is a whole skill around building a community around your career. And it doesn't have to be about knowing a lot of people. But we use this idea of people helping people as being the principle of what that looks like. And the last thing is all about future possibilities. So ladder-like careers say, have a plan, have a five-year plan, have a 10-year plan. Who knows what the next five years is going to bring? Plans tend to make people look for like the perfect career, put a lot of pressure on it.

32:51We are much more interested in people having curiosity around their career and exploring their opportunities and sort of playing with a bit of possibility. And so that skill is all about how do you have curious career conversations? How do you explore different doors for your development? And again, there are loads of tools that help people to do it. But in a nutshell, value, strengths, confidence, network, and future are the five skills that we really want people to be thinking about. I love those. I want to ask two follow-up questions. One is on strengths, because so many women that I speak to in my community will have had some experience which has knocked their ability to see their strengths and therefore their confidence.