The Hidden Cost of Being the Selfless One

0:08Welcome back to Motherkind. It is me, your host Zoe. We are proudly sponsored by Wild Nutrition women's supplements. My guest today is making the case for us all to be a little bit more selfish. And if you find that word triggering, then it's actually supposed to be. It's one of our biggest fears, isn't it, of being called selfish. But Susie Redding is a psychologist and prolific author, and she is here to nudge us towards the idea that actually being a little bit more selfish helps not only us but our families and yes our children too. Susie tells us that being selfish is actually about advocating for our own needs.

0:47It's about building up that relationship with ourselves. So in this episode you're going to learn how to give yourself the same love and tenderness that you so effortlessly give to others. You're going to be able to remove the barriers Susie tells us how to accept help much more easily and if you have no idea what your needs are now. If you feel so far away from what do I need, Susie gives us such a simple little tool that can instantly connect you back to yourself. Please remember to subscribe. It helps you because you never miss an episode and it helps me because you never miss an episode. So I hope you love it.

1:22Here's the episode.

1:27I'd like to take this moment to thank our headline sponsor, Wild Nutrition, who are offering MotherKind listeners 50 % off for the first three months. When I was pregnant with my first 10 years ago, I asked a few nutritionist friends, what's the best pregnancy supplement? And they all said the same thing, Wild Nutrition. So I listened and these incredible supplements have kept me feeling great through two pregnancies, starting this podcast, writing a book, a relocation and everything in between for the last decade. So it's magical to me that I now get to tell you about this incredible woman founded brand every week.

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2:56Susie, welcome back because it's been quite emotional for me this morning coming in because I was thinking that you were, I'm going to try, actually I'm probably going to cry. You were the first person when I started the podcast that I ever reached out to that I didn't know. So I'd booked a few guests that I knew. And this was back in 2017. And I was loving what you were doing. And you were talking about self-care in quite a new and different way. And I was like, oh, this would be perfect for this new podcast. And I reached out to you. And I remember sending you a message. And I was so nervous.

3:31And you replied just with the kindest, most enthusiastic response. You're like, I love an idea of a podcast for mum. I love this. I love it. And I think you probably don't realise it's those tiny interactions that you probably don't even realise the impact that you've had on people. You are so well loved in our industry for that reason. And I think that, yeah, you gave me such confidence because I think if you hadn't replied, I probably would have thought I'm not going to do this. My confidence was so fragile at that point with this little seedling of an idea. And so to be sat in front of you eight years, seven years later, it's such a joy.

4:09With everything that we've both gone on to do and achieve. And you've just written an unbelievable new book, How to Be Selfish, that we're going to dive into. But it feels super full circle and emotional to me. I feel just the same about that very first meeting. You know, the conversations that I was having with you at the time were so affirming and reassuring and galvanizing. And after that episode came out, it was like, yeah, I'm on the right track here. So I feel just the same, Zoe. So thank you. And it is lovely to come back full circle and also to just to recognise how far, how far we've come, how we've grown.

4:40And that we're still going. Yes. It's not many. It's still evolving. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. So when you think back to sat, we were in your living room then, to sat here and you had two little ones. I had a, I think a one and a half year old. I hadn't even had my second then. What has changed for you? How is the woman sat in front of me different? Okay. So our conversation on that day was around self-care. It was. Now that's still a really, really important part of my work, but I want to broaden the conversation now. And this is a result of, I think, a reflection of my own life journey. So perimenopause has been an interesting experience where clearly in the last decade, having spoken about loads of different forms of self-care, the skills that we need to nourish ourselves, I'm good at self-care.

5:36And still, I felt like my body was falling apart. I was feeling frazzled. I was feeling fried. And I'm like, I'm doing all the things. What is it? And the volume of conversations that I'm having with women in my consulting room, in my walk and talks, on the comments of my social media posts, there is this gaping hole of not enoughness. And all of this informed me in writing this next book. The way that I want to broaden the conversation is moving away from self-care. That's still important. I want people to prioritise self, nourish self, but I now want people to feel comfortable receiving care.

6:17So that's where I'm at. And I've had to learn how to do that myself. So the woman that you see before you today is someone who is, I'm good at nourishing myself, but I'm becoming more and more skilled in advocating for myself so that people can understand me and I can also have my needs met, which feels pretty good. Yeah. What's the difference between self-care and receiving care? Okay. So self-care, these are all the things that we would do, all the healthy habits. and the kind of skills like gratitude, mindfulness, compassion, that's caring for self. Receiving care comes in lots of different shapes and sizes.

6:55And I love that you've asked that. What actually is receiving care? Sometimes it's being heard and validated and witnessed, that emotional intimacy. Sometimes receiving care is someone else making you a cup of tea. Sometimes it's a friend making a decision as to where you're going to go for dinner and making that booking. Yeah, sometimes it's help brainstorming a problem. So it's different things in different moments. But I think the fundamental thing that I've learned, and I really hope that I have effectively communicated this in all of the nine previous books. I've never said it was all about self-care.

7:32I wanted people to know how to care for self, but I've never said self-care in itself is enough. But this next chapter of my career is about removing the barriers that people experience to leaning on others and to receiving the love and support that they need. Yeah, it's so true, because especially if I think about early motherhood through that matrescence, you really need more other care than, you know, self-care. You need someone to care for you more than you're going to have the time, capacity, ability to care much for yourself, you know, when you've got sort of little ones under two. You've called the book How to Be Selfish.

8:09It's quite a triggering word. It is. For a lot of women. It's kind of, there's two biggest fears. I was reading this study the other day that women have two big fears of what they might be called. One is lazy and one is selfish. Yes. So did you almost want to trigger people? Tell me why that word and why do you think that word is so kind of triggering? I have to be totally transparent. That was not my decision. And when it was first floated, I thought, oh, my God. This feels really uncomfortable because that's not what this book is about. This book is about self-advocacy. However, if we'd called it that, I don't think we'd be having this conversation because no one really knows what self-advocacy is.

8:49We all know what selfish is. And I think most women are phobic of being seen as selfish. But there's something in this title that really does speak to me because, you know, having spent a decade talking about self-care, I'm passionate about reclaiming the right to self, the right to know self, trust self, prioritise self, advocate for self. So I wanted self to be in there. And if you notice, it's not how to be more selfish. It's how to be selfish. It's written for people who couldn't be selfish if they tried. And this is about healing our relationship with self. And you can see also self is on one line, issues on the next.

9:25It's like how to be more ourselves, how to feel comfortable being ourselves and how to feel safe and confident to speak up on middle of a half. Yes. And I see all of that. And I'm wondering if someone is listening, saying, I'm a mum, like there's no way that I can be selfish. If I started being selfish, the wheels would fall off. No one would get to school. No one would get to nursery. No one would get to, no one would get any food. Because if I was selfish, what I wanted to want to do is have a lion and, you know, a beautiful breakfast I made myself at 11 and the kids could just sort themselves out.

9:57Tell me about the version of selfish that you're talking about. Okay. So what I'm talking, I'm not talking about selfish at all. Okay. This is self-advocacy. However, the conversations that I have with women, largely when they're feeling selfish, it's when they're doing things like resting, prioritizing an early night, leaning on people, asking for help, saying no, pacing themselves. None of those things are selfish. All of those things are self-advocacy. So that's what I'm talking about. But for people who are in different periods of their life, and I get it, there have been seasons of my life where my bandwidth was so small for what was available to me, not just in terms of how I could prioritize my time and energy for self, but what was available outside of me.

10:45My journey here began in terms of self-care and self-advocacy when I had both parents in different intensive care units. And it's like, well, who's going to take care of me now. It's really intense. So it needs to honour the seasons of life that you're in. But essentially what this is, it's about having a conversation about your feelings and your needs. And I don't think we're welcomed to do that, are we, Zoe? Well, I think that the problem is, is that as you go through that sort of matrescence and that early motherhood, you can get so far away from your own needs. And then when you have a bit of space, And we hear this all the time, don't we, mothers say, you know, I had an hour to myself and I literally didn't know what to do.

11:27It's like, should I do this? Should I do this? What do I need? How does someone who feels really far away from what they need start to get back in touch with that part of themselves? It's really challenging. I think we are, we're systematically distracted and disconnected from self by our rearing. Like you look at how we raise kids to, they've got to be still, be quiet, do that thing for that period of time. They can't go to the loo unless it's break or lunchtime. You know, we're not encouraged to honor what's going on, are we? So I think we'd need to hold up to the light just how challenging and how rebellious it feels to turn attention inwards.

12:08But my best suggestion would be really simple check-ins and it would be putting hands on heart. And this is something that I couple with drinking water so that I don't forget it. Yeah. In fact, you've got a cup of tea with you. Yeah. Can we do it? Yeah. Can we do it? Okay. So for anyone that feels disconnected from self or how the heck am I going to make space to connect with self, this is the ritual, right? So what we're going to do is tenderly place a hand on our heart. And with that gesture, you're saying to yourself, I'm actually deserving of my own attention. It's all right for me to turn my attention inwards.

12:46It's okay for me to check in. And at the same time, take a little sip and just notice how the hand on heart changes the sensory experience of drinking.

12:57How did that feel? Did it feel a little different to how we normally drink? Yeah, a little, yeah. Yeah? Try again. For anyone doing this at home, what I'm hoping that you'll experience is that when we place the hand on the heart, it really helps us become alive to what's happening within us. You feel the temperature of what it is that you're drinking. You feel the taste of it, the sensation of it in your mouth, how it feels as you swallow it. And with that increased mindfulness, there's more of a sense of, actually, I can feel the receipt of this rejuvenation. Yeah. But with this practice, we can also offer ourselves a couple of questions.

13:34And those questions are, where am I at? So if we can just check in, what is going on for me right now? what's happening in my body without judgment or criticism? Where's my head at? What kind of emotional tones are circulating? And then based on those observations, can we then ask ourselves, what do I need? Do I just need to go to the loo, right? Do I need a hug? Do I need a little fresh air? Do I need something to eat? That's how simple this stuff is. Yeah. Or do I need to reach out for the love and support that I need because people need people. Yeah, we can't. It's not about doing it all on our own.

14:17And I love how you link our childhoods and how we've been raised, I think particularly as millennial women, to overgive, to prioritise someone else's comfort over our own, to push down our feelings just and keep going. Right feelings weren't really a thing in the 80s when a lot of us were being raised. So how do we start to break that cycle if someone is like, I do not know how to say no to my kids so that I can do something for me? That feels too selfish. How does someone break that? So I think, first of all, we've got to hold up to these unquestioned beliefs that will derail us. and so many of these beliefs along the lines of, I must be selfless.

15:07I can't be selfish. I can't lean on others. I must be self-sufficient. I can only turn my attention inwards once I've met the needs of everyone. My worth is contingent on how successfully I've met everyone else's needs. I can only be okay when everyone else is okay. All right. So all of this hyper-independence, hyper-responsibility. We've got to hold this up to the light. I think the thing that really drives me mad the most is that we know that we can't be selfish due to our gender conditioning. We know that we must be selfless. But now we've got all this modern messaging that tells us also that we've got to be grateful, that we've got to grow through what we go through, all of that pressure, and that we've got to be resilient.

15:55And yet, what does it take for human beings to be resilient. It takes nourishment and it takes social support. So how on earth can we be this resilient being when you're not allowed to do the things that we need as human beings to be resilient? So once we hold these things up to the light, I think it helps people understand that this is an impossibility. So can we give ourselves permission to fail at what's humanly impossible? And can we then choose for ourselves what we hold on to? I have got to a point where, and I don't know if you've noticed this, sorry, I'm sure you have. When I attempt to be selfless, that's when I'm guaranteed to turn into scary mummy and shouty wife.

16:43Yeah. When I've totally abandoned self. When I say to myself, do you know what? I want my values of compassion, kindness, nurturing, care, to also include myself. It's not a transgression of my values. It's a more complete expression of them. Now that doesn't necessarily mean I'm taking huge swathes of time away from my family, but it does mean that I speak to myself with tenderness and respect. And it does mean that I will say to my husband from time to time, sweetheart, this is how I'm feeling. Could you do this? And I tell you what, the more conversations I have like that with my husband, the more he can meet my needs because he's not a mind reader.

17:24All along, I've been feeling this huge resentment build. So much of it was unspoken needs.

17:35And now a quick word from our sponsors.

17:42Tell me about, I just want to underscore that statement that you made about when I'm selfless, that's when I'm most likely to turn into shouty, angry, snappy. Give me like a practical example of what that might look like. Okay. So this is when I've made the kids pack lunches, but I haven't necessarily fed myself properly. That would be when I will have a coffee because that will give me the pep that I need. Then it'll be, my daughter might say, can you pick me up from school? But I'm already picking someone else up. And actually she's got legs. She's 15. She could walk halfway home from school and I could collect her from there.

18:18But if I bite down on that and say, yes, of course. And then when I pick her up, I've over committed myself. Right. So it's these, there is room for wiggle. And I think what you were saying earlier about the seasons of parenting, seasons of motherhood is really important. In those early years, it's not as if you can just roll over when your child wakes up at night and say, not now. But as our children get older, there is an opportunity for us to share more of our emotional lives with our children in an age appropriate way. And I think that's important that we do that so that they understand that we're not this being, this automaton without needs and feelings.

18:57Like how else do we raise compassionate children if we're not showing our humanity? And how will they embrace their humanity if we've modelled, just push through. So yeah, different seasons of motherhood will allow different expressions of self. But I think we still, even in those early days, we still have a right to feel and we still have a right to reach out and ask for the support that we need. So it's... What do you see the big things stopping people reaching out for that help and support? Well, I mean, we're told we must be self-reliant. Yeah. That a good human being is one that just gets on with it.

19:35And I think in this day and age where we're so privy to the suffering of others, it stops us from being more open and transparent because we don't want to burden others. But also it makes us feel bad that most of the people that come to me will say at some point in our therapeutic relationship, I should be coping better. I should be stronger. What's wrong with me? Other people have got it worse. I should be grateful. All of this messaging is just, it shuts us down and it keeps us stuck in these little silos. And I've said it before, Well, people need people. We need the love and support of others to, you know, to weather life.

20:09I think that's so true what you say about, you know, with what is going on in the world. It's really, it is quite hard to think, you know, God, this little thing happened today. It's nothing compared to what so many mothers, humans, children around the world are experiencing. How do we hold both those truths that there is horrific things happening in the world? and I still feel really upset about something minor in my life and I'm allowed that feeling. How do we hold those two without kind of shaming ourselves for our feelings and unknowns? We just need to keep a perspective. Of course, there is this suffering, but that suffering doesn't negate your experience.

20:49And I think it comes to an understanding of emotional health. Emotional health isn't feeling happy and content and put together and grateful all the time. And emotional health is the ability to feel our feelings and to move through them in safe and healthy ways. So, of course, we stay grounded in that perspective and the gratitude for our blessings. But I think it's for us to be healthy, we need to give ourselves permission to feel. And I don't think that we've been brought up with the toolkit because we've been brought up to believe that there are certain emotions that are appropriate for men and women to express and others that aren't.

21:27Even the fact that we've been reared to believe that there are positive and negative emotions. I know. I always laugh when people say that. It's so unhelpful. I know. We need them all. All of them are cues to what we need to feel safe and healthy in relationship with other people and feel safe and healthy in relationship with ourselves. What's the emotion that you see your clients and community struggling with the most? I'd say guilt. Yeah. Guilt, shame, anger, resentment. we will feel all of these things when our relationship with self is ruptured. So if someone's nodding to all four, they've gone, yes, guilt, yes, shame.

22:03Okay, so let's look at how have we been conditioned to feel about human needs and emotions? A good baby is one that doesn't cry. A good kid is one that doesn't talk back to adults. How on earth are we ever going to feel comfortable with recognising our own humanity and giving voice to it when we've been reared to believe that, you know, put up, shut up, get on with it. So if someone's sat here thinking, I feel all those things, where do I put them? What do I do with them? Is it a case of, I don't know, smacking out a pillow to get the anger out? Is it writing out the journal? How do we process?

22:38Okay. So this is why I needed 80 ,000 words. So step four of taking back your power is I reclaim my right to feel. So in the book, there are lots of different prescriptive toolkits of what to do when you're feeling angry, what to do when you're grieving, what to do when you're feeling disappointment or sitting with the disappointment as someone else. So there are loads of different somatic practices that we can use and it comes down to what it is that you're feeling and what's going to be supportive in the moment. I think if we take a look at anger, I think that's a really interesting one. I was talking to a journalist from the Times yesterday about rage rooms.

23:15Have you heard of rage rooms? Yes. They always go viral. And there's this forest retreat that women can go on where you go into the forest and you just break stuff. Okay. You rage. So I'm really pleased that we're having this conversation because I think most of the time when women come to me saying, I want to manage my anger better, what they're talking about is they think they want to get rid of it. They don't want to express it. And I'm like, but your anger is a clue to some kind of unmet need. Let's not just soothe it away. We need to listen to it. And then we actually need to use the energetic charge of that emotion to galvanise you to do the difficult thing.