The Truth About Being the Default Parent: Why Mothers Feel Lost, Guilty and Overwhelmed with Lou Beckett

0:07Welcome to MotherKind, it is me your host Zoe and we are proudly sponsored by Wild Nutrition women's supplements. Let me ask you a question. Can you just decide that you want to go out one evening and just go without having to plan childcare or organise things for the children? If you can, then you are not a default parent and chances are you probably have a default parent, someone in your life who is picking up that childcare slack. Today's guest is Lou Beckett, wife of the famous comedian Rob, because she has just written a book called Lessons from a Default parent. And she is here to tell us about the moment she realised this pattern where everything was defaulting to her, how it felt and how she's managed to change it.

0:51So if you are in the thick of it right now, if you feel like everything is falling to you, if you feel lost, if you feel resentful, then I think this episode is going to help you feel so seen, so understood, and it's definitely going to make you laugh a little bit. Don't forget to subscribe. Here it is.

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2:41Oh, Lou, I'm so excited to have you here. I absolutely laughed and cried and raged a bit through the book. And so I just imagine that someone's just pressed play to this episode. They're in the car. They've got two little ones in the back. They've probably had a bit of a rubbish morning. What do you want them to hear from one default parent to the next? that it's okay to say it's hard it's okay to acknowledge that and it's all right to lean into it that you're not in somehow letting yourself down or anyone else down by acknowledging just how hard the job that you're doing is because it is really hard and it is relentless and it's not to say it's not lovely but it's really hard and sometimes you've just got to acknowledge that and go this is a bit shit and move on like it's okay to say that and when did you first say that out loud?

3:29Because I think you describe it in the book. There's that, you know, in those early days and everyone's like, it's magical and you've got this newborn and it's beautiful. That isn't the reality of most of the women that I know. When did you first say out loud, this is a bit shit? I think it was a slow creep, kind of that realisation that, oh, this is still hard and it doesn't feel like it's getting easier. It's changing and it's evolving. But bits of it don't feel like they're getting easier because that first bit is so physical. You're hormonal, you're tired, you're exhausted. And I kept putting end points on it and go, well, when we get to this point, it'll feel easier because, and it never really felt easier.

4:09I don't want to be all doom and gloom. If you've got a newborn in your arms, you're like, oh my God, this never gets easier. Because it does. Bits get easier, bits get harder. But it's almost the kind of looking back in retrospect and going, oh, I didn't realise how much I felt some of the things I was feeling, which is that it's hard. And I felt a bit lost and I didn't feel like I was doing a very good job. And now I look back and go, oh, I was doing a good job and I was doing the best job I could. And that was good enough. But you don't realise it till you're out of it, which isn't helpful when you're in it and you just need some help or you need someone to go, this is really hard and you're working really hard.

4:46It's so true. It's so true. And what would you say to yourself if you could go back to the loo, sat on the sofa, paint us a picture of a moment when you were like, oh, and I want you to imagine what you would say to her. So we'd had one of those days which on paper was meant to be lovely. Me and my friend had taken our two-year-olds up to town across London to see Andy in the Odd Socks. Love Andy. Everyone loves a bit of Andy. My daughter loved a bit of Andy. apart from on the day we slept up to town and across town to see Andy. Of course. Screamed blue murder at the meet and greet. I've got the photo of me wrestling her while everyone tries to smile, you know, through the screaming around us.

5:26And then on the way back, she managed to, I still don't know entirely how she did it. I'm heavily pregnant with our youngest as well at this point. She manages to tread in dog poo, but gets it all up the back of her legs. And we're walking home from the station. Because I was like, it'll be fine. We can walk. So it's freezing. She's covered in dog poo. We've had one of those days where I'm ready to sit in the corner and just cry at this point. And now she's covered in poo. So I have to take her trousers off. She's on my shoulders with bare legs in December. I've got a photo of her wearing like a bobble hat.

5:57She's having a marvellous time at this point. She thinks it's hysterical. But I'm like schlepping up the road with a two-year-old, a half-naked two-year-old on me. I can feel people looking at me from their cars, judging why my daughter's naked, basically. Well, not naked, but half-naked. and I got home and I was like what is even the point what was the point of today I've spent a whole load of money a whole load of effort I don't think she's even had a nice time I've not had a nice time and just you have those days where everything has felt like hard work from start to finish and I could have I could have cried at that point and looking back now I'm like but you went out you did something it doesn't always have to work you've tried your best and some days it works and some days it doesn't but at least you've tried and actually somebody told me once and it really has stuck with me it's much harder work to be a good parent than bad and that's why it feels like hard work and if so if you really really feel like you're slogging your guts out sometimes you're not getting anywhere at least you're putting in the work at least you're working at it it's true is that why you wanted to write the book to really bring that visibility to being kind of the default parent and the one day in day out yeah I think it was to give name to something that if you're doing it you already know you already know how hard you're working but it's nice to have it recognized it's very validating and I didn't realize how validating it would be until I'd written it that actually almost looking back retrospectively going I did all of those things and I'm still doing it and I've done it and look at what I've achieved because I think sometimes in the moment you don't realise how much you're doing or how much you're achieving because you're on this what can feel like a hamster wheel of jobs things to do stuff to do just constantly and I don't need to tell any default parent out there or any kind of mum out there how much it is they're doing because you know that you're doing it but it's nice to look at it and go, oh my God, I'm doing that and have it really recognised and kind of so you can celebrate that achievement.

8:05Yeah, I think that's it. Giving a name to something always makes us feel more seen, right? Yes. When you were researching it, because I know at the start of the book you talk, you pull out some brilliant research. What was some of the research that really made you feel like, okay, it's not me. I'm not failing. This is almost a universal experience when you are the default parent. And why is it that it's typically the woman or the mother that becomes the default parent so I did a bit of research before I started the book just in case I had that little moment when I was like oh my god what if it is just me what if you are just really shit at this and no one else is is struggling there's a couple of stats at the start of the book from the UK government so obviously very relevant to where I am and and where it's like mums are doing more of the child care on any day of the week week weekend weekday whether they're working or not mothers are doing more child care than fathers and where fathers the only area where it's in any way kind of equitable between mums and dads is that recreation that fun child care the kind of the logistical managerial educational the kind of very physical basically the bits where you have to be a nag the bits where you have to be boring the bits where it can feel like a real grind it tends to fall overwhelmingly on the mum it's not fair it's without being all negative it is wildly unfair that that falls on women when really once you get out of that newborn pregnancy bit there's no real reason why it should once the kind of biological necessity short of availing yourself of all of scientific advances and marvels and whatever childcare help you can rope in.

9:51There's no real reason, once they're not teeny tiny babies anymore, why it has to be the mum. But it's the kind of that precedent is set where it is the mum and it is the mum overwhelmingly doing most of it. How did that get set up in your home then? Because you've got this weird sort of set up where you have a partner who goes off for extended periods of time. Tell us about how that got set up and when you realised it was happening and what was it like now? Is it the same? Is it different? I don't think we ever spoke about it properly. It was just a kind of fait accompli. So I'm aware that I'm in a fairly, not unique situation, but it wouldn't have made sense for us to do anything else.

10:34So Rob's career was really taking off and he was getting all of these amazing opportunities to do all of these different work things and it wouldn't have made any sense for me to go, So I was in teaching, but I've also got ulcerative colitis. And that had really, really been exacerbated by teaching. Not that you can't teach and not be stressed. I, however, got very, very stressed while I was teaching. And it exacerbated my colitis to a point where I was, I didn't want to be off more than I was in. Because it's really disruptive to the kids and, you know, you have to build relationships and things like that.

11:14so I to try and get my clients under control I'd already taken a step back from work I'd gone to part-time and then I'd I'd kind of come off from work completely and was doing supply teaching and going back into my my previous school so like really it wouldn't have made sense at that point when we had this tiny baby and Rob was getting all of these amazing work opportunities which I wouldn't have wanted him not to do I really wanted him to do that and it wouldn't have made sense for me to go, actually, no, you stay at home so I can go and make myself ill doing this. Even though I loved my job, I loved it.

11:48I love teaching and I would like to go back to some form of it one day. It just wouldn't have made practical sense. So we kind of fell into it. And I think that's half the battle or that was half the danger of it, that we just fell into it. There was no real conversation. So then we never had that conversation of like, well, what's the kind of the short-term plan what's the long-term plan how is this going to be divided because looking back I think we could have avoided a lot of what I was feeling if we'd just had a conversation about it I think that's so common that people just you just slip into these roles particularly if if it's the mum that has a kind of nine months maternity yeah leave you just slip into being that default parent don't you and then suddenly because you're the one that's organized the childcare for you to go back to work if you are you're the one that's then managing the childcare and the nursery's got your number on file.

12:40It's that assumption of responsibility. And it's really, really subtle. But once you've clocked it, it's the, I assume I'm busy with the children unless I've booked it off. Yes. And even the phrase booked it off, I'm not booking like a day off work. Well, I am. But you are, yeah. Whereas Rob assumes, and I think most non-default parents, so most dads in this instance, assume that they're free unless they've been told otherwise. Yes. Whereas most mums assume that they're not free unless they've specifically arranged childcare. And that's not even just telling their husband or their partner, the dad, whoever, oh, I'm out.

13:21It's like I'm the one that organises a babysitter. I'm the one that would phone my mum. It's that assumption of responsibility and that assumption of responsibility never goes. It's just there and it transcends maternity leave. and it kind of just carries on and it's really really difficult to shake once it's ingrained yeah because you say in the book that's how you tell if you're the default parent can you just go out for a drink after work without organizing anything if you can you're not the default parent yeah do you say yes to something before you've checked because rob goes and again this is not bashing rob completely because i think almost all partners or dads fathers would do it he's like I've arranged to go to that's all right right I'm like I would never say that sentence I have to go are you in what are you doing is my mum free can we book a babysitter it's just the assumption of responsibility how is it different now is it different now it is different now in that Rob read the book and took it in the spirit in which it was intended I want to talk about his right to reply which it's you know he's definitely he made himself solely in charge of sun cream on holiday which sounds small but actually that needs to be applied four times a day and it's a pain up a lot of my time and like my headspace on holiday because he was in charge of sun cream he was like I've never done the sun cream really I'm gonna do the sun cream and I'm like lovely you do the sun cream you enjoy that like it just it did make and it's made a real difference not sun cream especially But I think he's just been much more mindful of how much he was letting me do.

15:02I don't know if that's the right phrase as such, but how much and I talk about it. And I think when I've spoken to other people and other people that've read the book, it's what they've said as well. It's that it's not that their partner wouldn't. It's just that the situation has happened right from maternity leave, right from even right from being pregnant. You're the one that's pregnant. you're the one that then gives birth and then you're the one kind of feeding and looking after this baby that then your roles kind of get set and so then it's not that they wouldn't do more it's just that they've never had to and it's not occurred to them too because it's working so unless you kind of actively say this isn't working for me and I need you to do more why would they flag it yeah well they wouldn't there's little incentive to them yeah exactly Tell me about Rob's right to apply.

15:50What surprised you about some of his responses? Some of what he was saying, I was very pleased with how receptive he was to it. But in terms of what surprised me, his eagerness to be off work. I don't think in reality he would enjoy it. when he's like oh I would I would work less and you could go back and I'd be a full-time I was like no you wouldn't you know you wouldn't I really don't think he would not in reality but I think what surprised me is how much he recognized as well that we never sat down and spoke about this this is the kind of first time really we've had a real proper conversation yeah get a conversation I've had to put it on the internet and then write a whole book get to get his attention and like and he is a brilliant dad and a brilliant partner and very very generous with his kind of effort and time and would do anything for us and it just made me think that like on paper I have a lot of support I'm incredibly lucky my mum lives nearby we don't have a lot of the worries that I know a lot of people would have you know if I wanted a full-time nanny I could have one I don't want one but do you know we could there's a lot of things that i could solve and i'm like i am still really struggling with this and i've got a partner who is really supportive what if you've got one of the partners that is a selfish ass how do you navigate those about as well so many rob loves to going but i'm not as bad as so-and-so i'm not married to so-and-so and i wouldn't be married i wouldn't have married that person like that's not a good thing you talk about a parenting plan as a way to have these conversations yeah tell us about that looking back I think I what would have been really beneficial is to have these conversations if you can before you have children yeah I'm not saying you've got to plan out the next decade of your life and then it'd be set in stone but have the conversation about what's important to you and what you think you might want to do it might all change in the moment you might have your baby and go oh my god I love this and I can't imagine going back to work full-time or going back to work might be really important to you and your identity and so like have those conversations before the baby's here because it's so much easier to do it when you're not exhausted hormonal and it almost turns into even with the best will in the world it turns into a competition and but I'm doing but I'm doing you're both working the hardest you ever have and so it's really hard to then bring it up after that because it feels like you're going on the attack it feels like you're saying you're not working hard enough or you're not doing enough and that's not what I was saying to Rob it's more that I don't know who I am anymore I feel completely lost in this motherhood sphere and I don't know how to get out of it and I need your help to create enough space for me to find my way back out so it's doing it in advance when you're not completely adult by exhaustion and hormones and demands on your time.

19:03What was it like when you felt completely lost in it all? Did you feel like you couldn't remember kind of who you were anymore? What was that like? I think there's, again, it's a couple of things where maybe this situation is maybe slightly more unique to me than other people, but everyone will have had their own version of it. of at the same time I became a mum, Rob's career took off massively and I took a step back from my own career. So kind of three things simultaneously, I felt like I got completely lost within that of the only thing I had really to talk about, because that's all I'd done that day, was what I'd done with our daughters.

19:43And then people would ask me a lot about Rob or what Rob was doing, because what he was doing was really visible and it was very interesting. and you kind of find yourself a number of years down the line going, I don't think I've got anything to say. I didn't feel like I had anything to add to a conversation. I think every mother's felt like that. My God, I felt like that. Yeah. And you feel like you've got nothing. I don't know what to say. You go, well, what have I done? I've done nothing. What have I read? Nothing. What have I achieved? Nothing. And you have achieved. That's the thing to take away from this.

20:14You have achieved. It's just not, I'm very much like, I like a certificate. I like Ofsted coming in going. you're an outstanding or good teacher or I like having something tangible I can go this is what I've done and aren't I good at it and no one does that when you're a mum that's the thing it's so invisible yeah it matters so much but it is so invisible and if you're kind of raising sane healthy happy kids no one goes well done yeah yours isn't an arsehole but no one says that but you kind of want to go thank you I'm working really hard making sure that you have no idea They're what mistakes.

20:47I'm really trying to not be the sociopath. And I'm really trying to make sure that they're not the weed. But like very rarely do you get anyone going, you're doing really well. Yeah. Like good job. It sounds patronising, but I would have bloody loved a good job. Oh, my God. Someone once saw me calm my two-year-old down from a tantrum. And she said, oh, my God, you handled that so well. And I burst into tears because no one had ever said anything like that. I had a business man on a train who asked me to, could I get her to keep it down? No. I mean, admittedly, she was feral. Really going for it.

21:21She really, really wanted to get off the train between stops. Is this to do with Andy or unrelated? No, we were going up for another lovely day out. Me, my mum, we had a three-year-old and a one-year-old and she just wanted off the train. So she was like screaming by the doors. And I was doing my very best to kind of remain very calm, neutral, doing my little internal chance, looking over her head, just not giving in to what she wanted, which was to repeatedly kick the door and press the button. And I wouldn't let her do that. So she was just having a meltdown and he asked me to keep it down. And I was like, sir, I was quite proud of myself because I didn't cry until I got back to my seat.

21:56Yeah. And I was like, have you ever tried to contain a one year old? I should be congratulated for keeping my calm and not giving in, not told off. And then I walked back to my seat and burst to do this. I was just like, oh, you awful, awful human being. Like I'm having a much worse morning than you. I don't know what's happened in your morning, but I am having a worse one because I'm dealing with her. So like, just be nice. And yeah, awful. It's the same on planes, isn't it? When people just don't have the understanding of what it's like. Yeah. Whatever you're listening to, that parent is listening to it much closer and being responsible for it and feels awful.

22:31Feels awful.

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23:53and so thinking about that time when you sort of felt lost and how did you come out of that and Well, have you? Do you feel differently today? I feel like I'm getting there. I feel like we're kind of clawing it back, writing the blog, and then it kind of developing into the book has been really, really validating. And again, I keep going about retrospectives, which isn't helpful when you're in it, but didn't realise how validating it was almost until it was done and given voice to a lot of the things that I don't even think I realised I was feeling until I look back and I was like, oh, I didn't realise how much I was in it or how lost I felt.

24:33And it has been a really slow process. So if you're right in the trenches of it and you can't remember who you are and you can't remember what you used to do or think or know, it does get better. It just takes time. And you have to try and give yourself the space and the freedom to find yourself again. And it feels really selfish, but it's not selfish. It's not selfish to care about yourself as well as your family. And it's not selfish to carve out time for yourself as well as your family. It just feels it, but it's not. But the only way through it really is through it. Yeah, and I think there are certain things that you can only see retrospectively.

25:14I don't think when you're in the moment, you can actually see it. You're just too in it, aren't you? So I think it's so helpful to look back because anyone listening who's got those little ones will be like, okay, maybe I'll feel like that. I can't see it now, But I think I will feel like I am doing it and I can do it and it is OK. And how much you are achieving. Like babies change so much from babies to toddlers, children. And even in six months, if you look back, say, six months ago, whatever age your child's at, think about how much you've done since then. And so I think sometimes it is good to stop and take stock quite kind of consciously.

25:49Yeah. Stop and take stock of, OK, well, what have we done in the last six months or where am I now or how do I feel? because it can help. It can really help. Yeah, I want to. I love this list. The cheat sheet of the overwhelmed because I can imagine right back in the day when my two were little, I would have just grabbed this and maybe taken one. And it says, you're absolutely right. The house would fall apart without you. Women spend 10 extra hours a week multitasking household tasks compared to men you don't have the same amount of free time you're right and it's not fair men have half an hour extra free time a day on average that's 164 hours a year you are more tired women lose 40 minutes of sleep per night after baby men lose only 13 i swear it's more than 40 as well yeah what is that felt really low minutes of sleep that's the average apparently talk about you lose seven years of sleep in the first decade or something and it takes you a decade to get it back is insane i know i've spoken a lot about in the book about don't be argumentative like don't ziggy and anna williamson who was amazing has given some really good advice about how to kind of communicate productively with your partner use the word i statement yeah but sometimes you do just need to win and i feel viscerally sometimes i just need to win so if those stats help you win they're 100 and it's not something that you're just really tired or have you had a hard day it's no no the people at harvard say i've lost more sleep than you or the uk government says you're not doing enough it sometimes you just need to win and if it helps you win have at it yeah exactly get the book so you can frame this little page here find the page it's a page 187 cheat sheet for the overwhelmed if nothing else that page alone is worth it i think so i think so this phrase default parent how did you kind of discover it and were you like oh my god that's what I am had you heard it before you realized I hadn't heard it before I know it has been out there I'm not laying claim to it that's not I was in the pub with my fellow mum friend who and we'd had quite a lot of red wine and we were really going on a little kind of spirally rant and in the midst of that I said kind of it's just being the default it's just being responsible all the time and it really and it stuck with me I obviously I know I'm not the first it's not something I'm claiming but it covered more than the mental load because I think we've we've heard a lot about the mental load and that is absolutely a massive part of being the default parent it's not just the thinking it's the doing it's the responsibility it's the physicality of being the default parent it's that I physically have to be there.

28:38And that has a real impact on your time and on your kind of ability to be yourself again. If you physically have to be in a lot of the places you have to be as a mum, you have to be at pick up. You have to be there. Like someone has to be with the baby. It's a real biological... I know, damn it. I know. If only we could leave them a little bit. I know, if they could be left for more than three seconds at a time, you could really get yourself again. sadly someone has to be with them otherwise you will go on a list and if someone's listening and they're like i am a hundred percent the default parent you know and you've written the book and and you've you've kind of had this experience what are some of the things that you really wish you'd known that you know now that what you think would help someone talk to your partner talk to them early and don't feel bad about saying i would also like these things I would also like to be able to do xyz because there is value in you feeling like you again because you're not going to be able you can't pour from an empty cup you've got to be able to have your own time and rest and and I know that that is that sounds really if you're in the midst of like newborns going you've got to have time to have self-care I wanted to punch people in the face when am I going to get this time what do you mean like obviously you can't but it's so important to talk to your partner or if or if you've got maybe you don't have a partner maybe you're a single parent in whatever your kind of family dynamic set up if there's people within your network that you can speak to that can help facilitate just that little bit of time to take a step back even if it's half an hour while they pushed a pram around and you sat by yourself and just breathed and reset just for a little bit have a look at who's in your network that you could try and utilise or lean on a bit because it's really hard to ask for help and don't feel bad about it.

30:35I've got enough to feel bad about. Yeah, exactly. People always find something to feel bad about. So like, try and take something off. Well, you said that. I was really struck by this line that you said, I've spent the last 10 years feeling bad about something. Yeah, constantly. I think most mums do in some degree. I mean, I think my biggest takeaway from writing the book is just how much unnecessary guilt and pressure I've put on myself. And no one else was doing that. Bits of it, you know, obviously like the comparison trap and Instagram and all the other people who love to tell you all the advice and things you should be doing and the way you should do it and the, you know, gouge your own eyes out in the end, don't you?

31:15Helpful, very helpful. And I go, that's not helpful, is it? But I had my first daughter just, well, I had both of them just before Christmas, but my first one wouldn't breastfeed at all. And we're like, we're two weeks away from Christmas. I'm quite clearly on the edge of a physical and mental cliff about she just wouldn't breastfeed. She wouldn't do it. She was tiny. She wasn't premature. She was just really weenie. She was like 5 '8". She just couldn't seem, between us, we just couldn't do it. And so she wasn't putting on any weight. And the health visitors were coming and they just kept telling me things that, well, why don't you go to a breastfeeding cafe?

31:50Why don't you try swinging her head around? Why don't you try? But I was like, what I needed then was somebody sane and from outside of our little bubble, who was all too tired and hormonal to go. It's OK if you want to give her a bottle of milk. It's OK if you want to do this. I just needed somebody to step in and take it off my shoulders because it was just and I think I started my parenting journey feeling like I was failing. And that's never really left me. And actually, it would have been so much more productive and so much better for me over the past 10 years to just let some of it go. Just go, you know, I'm trying my best and that is OK.

32:29That's fine. Where do you think all that pressure on yourself was coming from? If it wasn't coming from outside, where was it coming from? I think most normal people want to be the best parent they can. There's very few, very few people who don't actually care. most of us care deeply deeply deeply about being the best parent the best mom the best dad whoever and so it is coming from inside but then because so many people do it you've got so much advice so many comparisons so many all this helped me or i did this or the best way to or the i just think those parenting books typically don't help i've got to say no i think books like this help i mean they're about your misery company if nothing else so if it makes you feel better someone else was struggling.

33:15I would way rather read a book about the reality of what your lived experience relating to mine as someone telling me how to identify the right cry at the right time for the right hunger cue. But I think as well, that's it. We know so much more than we did. We've got access to so much more than we did. And actually, my little pea brain hasn't evolved enough to see 300 mums on Instagram or wherever else, all doing it brilliantly and aesthetically pleasingly and you know weaned children all on organic homemade if you can good for you I'm pleased for you piss off I don't need it it's not something my brain needs to deal with Wednesday it's so true it's so true our brains are just not designed no for that we're designed to be in a small community where we see a few other mothers around us doing it not open and see what you know Beyonce is giving her twins carefully curated staged and it is a lot of it is staged and curated and held back for a nice photo on a Wednesday rather than what's actually happening so just let it go let the guilt go let the comparisons are you better at that now letting the guilt go do you feel more confident I am I feel less guilty about doing stuff for me now and I'm not saying like I swan off on girls weekends all the time it's not that it's I mean I'd like to but it's I feel less guilty about saying I'm important in this dynamic too that actually I have to I'm not saying I have to come first second third whatever but I am part of this dynamic too that there is we've got the girls and obviously they need to come first because they're my children I had them and I want them to be as brilliant as they can be and I want them to have everything that they need and want and all of that but also I'm important in that dynamic as well I'm not just their mum I was a person for a full 29 years before I had them and I'm still a person now and I think that person got lost a little bit in the rob was working the girls were growing up and i i'd forgotten to put myself into the mix and i'm still struggling with it a bit like it still goes against a kind of almost like decades worth of ingrained no no i'm just a mom i'm just doing that and you're not just a mom you are the mom you're their mom and it's and that is a whole job in itself but if you want to do something as well as that lovely don't feel bad about it everyone else is doing not everyone god I've just done the comparison trap everyone else is doing it but dads can go and they don't seem to fall into this kind of spiral of self-loathing that mums do a lot that's really dramatic self-loathing but I think it's important to kind of give yourself a break and step back from it yeah I think so too and I think it is accurate sort of kind of the self-loathing I think that we do we are so hard so hard on ourselves so what's the next chapter for you excuse the book pun no idea at the moment absolutely none we haven't really looked beyond focusing on the book beyond the book no I mean it's it's been a real obviously like gear shift because I hadn't worked I say that in inverted commas because I have been working I haven't done any paid work no I haven't had a paid kind of job like an employment job since I left teaching so it's been a real kind of really interesting gear shift to go back into I'm going to work I've got something I have to do it's been really lovely from a very kind of selfish again in inverted commas to have things in the calendar that are mine yeah can't be moved because they work yeah Has it changed the dynamic at home?

37:08It has in that we're both kind of, it's that assumption has been taken out of it that we can't just assume now that Rob can put anything in the diary that needs to be put in because I might have something on and that wasn't there before. And that's, and that I want to hold on to. So whatever I do after the book. You need to be putting a lot of meetings in the diary. In the diary. Whether they're real or not. They could be real. to be in there we don't know they're not yeah so it's been that's been a really interesting gear shift just having a kind of more equitable sense of oh no this has to this has to go in and this has to be not respected because he did respect it before I don't want to make anyone think that Rob didn't respect my time or what I was doing he really did I just didn't and I think that's important to note I didn't respect it Rob did and actually I think writing the book and going back over it has made me kind of value what I did a lot more.