Women's happiness has been declining since the 1970s - this is why and what we need to do about it, with Giselle Goodwin

0:07Welcome to Motherkind. It is me, your host Zoe. Thank you for being here. Thank you for pushing that little play button. I am so excited to have you as a part of our Motherkind community. We are proudly sponsored by Wild Nutrition and this is the show that's going to give you all the tools, all the validation, the expertise and support that you need to thrive in your life as a modern mother. In this week's episode, my guest is Giselle Goodwin, PhD. She is the author of can women really have it all? That age old question. And she is here to share her latest research on some of the massive questions facing us today.

0:48What does all really look like? Does it matter? Why has women's happiness been declining since the 1970s? What do we do about the fact that working mothers are 40 % more stressed than their peers without children and 28 % more prone to burnout than working fathers. I hope this conversation makes you feel seen. I hope it makes you feel heard and gives you tons of validation because as I always say, if you're finding it hard, that is because it is. And in this episode, you are going to hear a lot of research to back up however you are feeling right now. So I hope it's supportive. I hope it's eye-opening.

1:30Please do share the episode if it resonated with you. Here it is.

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2:51Just go to wildnutrition.com forward slash motherkind to get started. That's wildnutrition.com forward slash motherkind so you can feel the difference yourselves. Start 2026 rooted in wellness. T's and C's apply. Oh, Giselle, welcome. I'm so excited to be chatting. Thank you so much. I'm delighted to be here. Tell me about your 35th birthday and the moment that you had when you say it was one of those moments that just pierced your reality and you saw things in a different way. Hmm. Yeah. My 35th birthday was stressful. So normally I love my birthday, you know, like that's a time when you get to celebrate, you get to do something for yourself.

3:36And the morning of my 35th birthday, I woke up and I had two young children at the time. I had two businesses and life was busy. And I woke up to really kind, lovely messages on Facebook, You know, like people you hadn't heard from from a while. And I remember feeling angry when I woke up. Like I got these messages and I was like, I haven't got time to pee on my own. I haven't got time to wash my hair. I haven't even got time to answer birthday messages. Like I'm so stressed out. I'm overwhelmed. And I don't know whether I'm coming or going. And I just remember thinking like it was a real moment of this just clarity around life was too much.

4:24Life was too much. And I wasn't coping. I wasn't coping. And what was too much? Was it it was the businesses and the two kids? And were you were you that sort of woman who was trying to keep it all together? That sort of good girl, perfectionist? Was that? Yes. So that was very much my story. So it was very much about me being in a situation where I suppose I'd grown up with this idea that certainly as far as it came to women and working and things I should be doing, you know, that feeling of we should. I definitely grew up with this idea that, you know, a woman's job is to be in the workplace.

5:04I can do all of this. And, you know, my job was I had to put my big girl knickers on, get on with it. And that worked quite well throughout my 20s. That was absolutely fine. By the time I got to being mid-30s with two young children and I had a couple of businesses, I was just spinning plates. I was just spinning plates and it just seemed to me it just wasn't working. So that was quite a clarifying moment that morning of my 35th birthday. But another really kind of time that just brought things into sharp focus for me was a conversation I had with a friend of mine a couple of years after this.

5:44This friend of mine, Fran, she's amazing. She's lovely. And we were sat at my kitchen table and we were putting the world to rights, having this little chat. Fran said to me, she said, the thing is, Giselle, and we were talking about this friend of hers who was a hospital doctor. and she was kind of trying to do it all. So she equally had small kids and was, you know, trying to perform in terms of a career and work in the hospital. And my friend was like, the thing is, I'd never tell my daughters to try and be a doctor. She said, it's just, she actually said, the thing is feminism is bollocks.

6:19She was like, it just, none of it works. None of it works. She said, women are so sick of this idea of us like running in circles, trying to have it all. And she said, all we're doing is doing it all. And it's just not working. And I remember thinking like, that's, yeah, it's not working for me. It's definitely not working for me. Like, what do I do? And also at that time, my children were there. So we were having this conversation and I, you know, the girls were there. I have two little girls. And I remember thinking, well, this doesn't work for me. What do I tell them? Like, what do I say to them?

6:56How do I make this better for them? Because it's not worked the way I thought it was meant to in terms of career and family. And I thought that was meant to be like this done deal. Like, you know, I'd grown up in that era, you know, like 1980s. I'm Gen X, born in 76, grew up in this era where, you know we were told you remember those tie-dye t-shirts like girls can do anything and I was told and certainly the societal messages I received was this was going to be okay I could balance work and family that was that was fine you know my job as a woman put your big girl knickers on get in the world of work don't rely on a man to earn money for you you know you could do that and as I say it worked really well up until the point I became a mother.

7:44So it was my 30s in particular that I found really quite a challenge. And then what did you do next? So as I say, I had these businesses I was managing in my 30s. And then I actually got the opportunity in 2018 to sell both my businesses. So I had a recruitment company, I had an online pharmacy, you know, as I say, on the outside, I guess if you were looking in, I guess I was ticking the boxes. Yeah. On the inside, it felt like I was permanently failing or looking over my shoulder and feeling like somebody else has made a better decision than me or those guys can cope better than me. I'm just, I must be some weakling.

8:24I can't cope with this. So that's where I got to. And in terms of what I did next, in 2018, I had the opportunity to sell the businesses and I went and did some writing. So I attended a load of writing conferences and met up with this lady at a writing conference who was a professor of women and work. And I thought she was fab. I thought she was amazing. So she's about 10 years older than me. And she was just, she had all this wisdom. And one of the things she said to me was, do you know what, Giselle? It's not you. It's not you personally that's failing. This is society. These are these kind of constructs that we've built.

9:06It's not you where it's going wrong. It's society that's just not working for women currently. And so she actually invited me to interview about my businesses, which I did. And then she said, would you be interested in studying? So that's what I went to do. I did a PhD with her in women work and well-being. And then I've written this book about women. Can women really have it all? which, you know, I think is still up for debate. And having now, you know, seven years of kind of deep diving into this, what do you wish that burnt out woman on her 35th birthday had known? That's such a good question.

9:46The one kind of key message for me is the idea, if I could tell her something, it would be, it's not you personally. It's not you that's getting it wrong. There's so much in terms of how society operates today that makes working mothers feel and mothers in general feel that we're not getting it right no matter how we turn, no matter what we do. And so I'd love her to know just this is not you failing. This is not you making bad decisions or not being able to cope or whatever. It's not you. It's society. And what are some of those societal challenges from the research? What are those? Yeah. Okay.

10:27So what we know is that researchers have been talking about how women's lives have changed kind of in a very, very recent past. So for the last, since the early noughties, researchers have been saying, we know that women today have what they call a new sexual contract. So our new sexual contract with society today is very different than what it used to be. So it used to be that, you know, in order to be, I suppose, fulfilled or what society expects of women, it would be fulfill your reproductive destiny by becoming a mother. Now what we expect of women is two things. Number one, fulfill your reproductive destiny by becoming a mother.

11:10Number two, we expect women to financially provide for their families. So the research shows this, study after study shows that society expects women to do both these things. And this is a very different societal expectation than was previously held. And I actually contend and I take that research a little bit further and I say that women actually have three jobs. So we've got the work inside the home, we've got the work outside the home, and we also have the work of living in a female body. So we've got this additional workload, which is, so we all know the periods, the pregnancies, the breastfeeding, the menopause, all those things.

11:50We know that women spend 25 % more of their lives in ill health than men. We know in terms of work as well, we think about the beauty pressure that women are under. and a$500 billion beauty industry that puts pressure on women consistently, keeps us feeling inadequate, so we keep purchasing on repeat. So I contend that women have all this work, and as a consequence we know that when it comes to stress levels, women with children have 40 % more stress, and this shows up in biological markers in their body, like cortisol markers, 40 % more stress than women without children, and they're 28 % more likely to burn out than working fathers.

12:38And we know, and I know you talk about this an awful lot, this chronic guilt that mothers feel, that feeling of like, you can't do right for doing wrong. So, you know, you stay home with your kids and all of a sudden you're like, lazy mom, like, what did you do all day? You go out to work and all of a sudden you're like, bad mom, like, why didn't you show up for the recital? so we chronically feel guilty and bad about the stuff that we're not doing. And I also contend that, you know, these expectations today are on steroids. It's not even just this work of inside the home, outside the home and everything else.

13:13It's the good pressure, isn't it? Just as you said before, it's the good girl scenario. You have to be good at everything. So, you know, good mother, good partner, good worker, good friend, good looking, all of it. Yeah, I think you're right. And, you know, in my work, I talk to a lot of what you're talking about, of course, all those societal challenges and the structures. And something that really helps me is remembering how new this all is. This is really only 100 years old. So when I'm struggling, I need to remind myself, hang on a minute, this is really new. And the same for my partner and, you know, our male partners, co-workers.

13:49You know, I think it's new for them, too. This is a completely new model that we are all grappling with and trying to understand. And but where I love to focus as well as and what can we do about that? Because it's not overnight that we're suddenly going to change these, you know, societal structures. Most of us, unless we are in politics or activism work, are pretty powerless, actually, over that. So what would you say to someone who's listening and loading along thinking, yes, that is my experience. I feel like I'm failing. I feel burnt out. what can we practically do about it whilst we wait for these structures to change and get a little bit better?

14:28All of the above. So yeah, I wholeheartedly agree. Yeah, we're all kind of struggling with our identity, aren't we? We're all, you know, so things have changed so quickly in such a short period of time that, you know, women are struggling to know their place, men are struggling to know their place. It's all kind of thrown up in the air, isn't it? So I suppose we have to give ourselves a break over it. And you're 100 % right. So we have to, I guess, let societal progress catch up. So, you know, we have to bear in mind that 100 years ago, women didn't have the vote. 100 years ago, you know, we couldn't own property on the same terms as men.

15:0450 years ago, women couldn't have credit cards or mortgages in their own name. 50 years ago, there was a marriage bar, which meant that, you know, women in certain professions had to give up work when they got married. Things have changed in such a short period of time that we're all just kind of grappling with this and trying to kind of get there. So my argument is that, yes, we need some societal shift, but equally, like what can we do in our own lives? Because we can't change society overnight. It doesn't work like that. It doesn't, we'd like it to, but it doesn't work that quickly. So there's loads of things I look at in my book.

15:40So, you know, I have this mnemonic empower life. and so I have 11 things that I look at specifically and I also dive into you know what is happiness so it's the science of happiness what does it mean how do we get more of it so if I was to define it first of all researchers say that happiness is this combination of purpose and pleasure and we need both of these things for a good life to feel fulfilled we can't just have one without the other we need a good balance of both. And we also know, interestingly, that when it comes to happiness, 30 to 50%, again, depending on the study that you look at, is actually fixed.

16:22So genetically, you're either a bit more Tigger or a bit more Eeyore. So a certain proportion is fixed, but there's a really substantial proportion then that's behavioral. So there's a really good chunk of things that we can look at and go, right, if I implement that in my daily life, I will actively feel, get greater wellbeing. And isn't that what we all want, you know, for ourselves, for our kids. So the types of things I look at are a lot of the things that you discuss here as well. So all these wonderful things around self-compassion, boundary setting, letting go of the guilt, asking for more, delegating, all those kinds of things.

17:02I also unpick a little bit this idea that, you know, there's lots of generic happiness science out there. And it tells us stuff that, you know, you probably see on your Instagram feed already. Things that we know are good for our well-being. So things like meditation, exercise, trying new things, setting goals, doing kind things for others. So I go through those as well. And I talk about the fact that for working mothers and mothers in general who are very time poor, that might look slightly different for them. So, you know, when we get this generic happiness advice through, sometimes it just ends up being like another flipping thing to do on our self-care list.

17:45Yeah, that's right. It's the sleep studies that I always comment online because I feel like there's so many, often they are men, often they don't have children. And they'll be talking about if you're not getting this certain amount of sleep, how detrimental that is to your health. And I just think, my gosh, that's so triggering for those of us who have young children and older children, where how much sleep we get is not in our control. And I feel like that's, you know, one of the reasons I do the podcast because I'm so passionate about bringing that lens to the well-being, to the well-being world, because so much of it just doesn't fit these 5 a.m.

18:22morning routines. Like who is who is going to do that? Who's a parent? This is not going to happen. Getting up at 5 a.m. And yeah, that's my point as well about, you know, these random acts of kindness. So, you know, my argument is by flipping 9 a.m. Yeah, you've already done 100. Yes. Yes. Random acts of kindness. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So what I ideally like to do is rather than kind of say, because lots of this research, we kind of know it comes through to us, doesn't it? The bits about the exercise and meditation and, you know, great to find time. My thing is a bit more about reframing it. So there's kind of three specific things I think your listeners might be interested in, in terms of how we reframe what we can do, the things that are within our control.

19:04So the first is considering this idea of a portfolio career. So I'm a strong believer that, you know, everything has a time, a place and a season. And we are living very different lives than we used to. We're living longer lives than ever before. And we don't have to feel like we have to do it all in one go. So this kind of concept of a portfolio career, you know, there's a great quote, which is, think about your career like a jungle gym. and not a ladder. So you might spend a little time in the ball pool, you might go over there to the monkey bars, you might, I don't know, slide down the slide, go up the ladder, but we can think of our lives in different sections.

19:47And I think when it comes to motherhood, I think it's particularly pertinent because it's a time in our lives that we can think about readjusting and maybe discovering ourselves. And I think I also say this as the mother of teenagers, we don't understand ourselves well until we just get that little bit older. And we take time to develop into ourselves, don't we? So I just feel that this idea of considering your life as a portfolio career, but also being intentional with it. So actively, like writing it down, you know, do it on the notes on your phone. I've got a personalized happiness manifesto you can download on my website, but just write it down, be intentional and be very specific about this is what I want.

20:36And if I can't do it now, it's okay. I can do it later. So that's my first thing. Think about reframing as a portfolio career. Yeah. It's almost the idea around, you know, you can have it all, but just not all at the same time yes you know what are the seasons to really lean into career what are the seasons to you know maybe scale back what what are the seasons for learning like you did in many ways and in many ways like I have over the past seven years it's been my sort of learning era as opposed to you know absolutely 100 % all in career I haven't done that and thinking about it like it doesn't have to be a ladder it can be in pockets of different things and different interests and different aspects of our personalities and identities can go into different pockets of our lives.

21:20And I think that takes a pressure off in a certain way.

21:30So portfolio career is one. The other thing I feel really quite passionate about is this idea of women supporting each other. So just lifting each other up. You know, Michelle Obama has that wonderful quote, which is the bit about women haven't got the luxury of tearing each other down. And the researchers talk about this idea of constrained choices and the cost of comparison for women and mothers in particular. And they say that, you know, we often end up sociologically putting ourselves in these different boxes. So we end up stuck in these silos of either, you know, career mom, stay at home mom.

22:06And as I said before, you know, you feel like you have to be good at everything. So, you know, I don't know, part of your identity might be PTA or exercise or whatever it might be. But we end up in these silos. And because we get put in these silos, we constantly look over our shoulder and think, well, okay, I've managed to do this bit, but I haven't managed to do that bit. And I haven't quite kind of got the whole thing pieced together. And we end up feeling, I guess disconnected from each other. And I think it's so important that we have each other's backs with this. You know, a friend of mine tells a story about when her toddler was little and her daughter's 28 now.

22:48And she said, like, so the baby stuff was easy. She said, by the time it got to toddlering, she said the terrible twos, terrible threes drove her mad. And she describes being outside Asda with her little girl in the pram strapped in, but she was throwing an almighty temper tantrum. My friend said like, I just like, I couldn't do it. I couldn't do it. And she said, she walked off and left the pram. So she walked down the precinct and left the pram and the little girl outside Asda. She said another woman saw what was happening. An older woman saw what was happening and came up to her and said to her, you've got this.

23:24Can I help you? And put her arm rounder. My friend said like, she's never forgotten that. Never forgotten that, like support, that solidarity of another woman saying, I see you. It's okay. Like mothering, the hardest job in the world. I see you with this. So, you know, I just kind of think rather than sticking ourselves in these boxes and feeling like, well, we didn't manage to do that. Like, I don't know. So if somebody was, say, a lawyer and they got this wonderful job promotion and they were now head of their law firm, they were going to make some really, you know, have power there, make some really good laws.

24:03Let's be delighted. If somebody else is head of the PTA and they're going to be doing wonderful work in relation to, you know, fundraising for the children and, you know, the kids are going to have a better experience. That's fantastic. We need to celebrate all of these things and have each other's backs. Have each other's backs. So that's my second thing. And then my third thing really ties into this business around gender equality. The research shows that people who live in countries that have greater gender equality are happier. And that's both men and women. So we think that feminism is this thing where, you know, it gets a bad rap, that word.

24:42And we think it's, you know, up men, down women. That's really not what we're talking about. We're talking about societies that are more inclusive and have more equality. And it's not that we're the same. You know, everybody's different. It's a quality of opportunity. Those societies are happier. So we know that, for instance, it doesn't even just relate to gender equality. It also relates to ethnicity, to disability discrimination, to sexual orientation. So those inclusive societies are better. And my argument is we just need to call it out. and be really aware of this. And just, you know, all those little paper cuts.

25:23Certainly when I was younger, I used to think, oh, it's not a big deal. And I just think a thousand tiny paper cuts lead to one big bleed out. And we're sick of the bleeding. I think we're absolutely sick of the bleeding. So I think we need to just, yeah, really get behind each other and call these things out to try and get to some semblance of equality around these things that we need for well-being, you know, quicker. And how does someone do that last piece? Because obviously, you know, we're not responsible for the equality of a nation or a society or even a community. How do we do that in our own homes?