Work Series: Listener episode: What we wish someone had told us about work + motherhood

0:07Welcome to Motherkind. We are proudly sponsored by Wild Nutrition Women Supplements. I am your host Zoe Blaski and this is the show that is going to grab you by the hand and be your guide through the wild ride that is modern motherhood. Every week I bring you world leading experts and thinkers to give us new ideas, new tools, new support, new inspiration for our lives as mothers. We span everything from work to relationships to mental health and healing and parenting and I am very happy that you are here. This is the final episode of our special work series. I really hope you've loved it. We've covered everything from starting your own business to pausing paid work, which we're now calling a power pause, to changing careers, to confidence and even my own motherhood and work story.

0:55To complete the series, we have got such a special episode because I am joined by three brilliant mother kind listeners. Amy, who's on a career pause, Vanessa, who is working full time in a corporate role, and Jess, who is just back from her third maternity leave and she is working four days a week as an NHS psychologist. You are going to hear from each of these different setups, what's working, what's not working, the biggest challenges. You're going to hear what returning from mat leave was like for each of them and how despite their different setups and choices, so many of the challenges are the same.

1:35And that is what I really want you to take from this episode, because we can feel like it's only us who is just completely struggling and grappling with paid work and motherhood. And I really want you to take that you are not alone. This episode is like dropping in on an incredible group chat with honesty, vulnerability, and so much support. You're going to listen to this and you're going to feel less alone, you're going to feel validated and you're definitely going to take at least one new idea away. I hope you love it. And if you did, please share it. Share it with that mum in your team who is just back from mat leave.

2:09Share it with your friend on a career break and questioning everything or your friend who you know she feels like she's the only one who's struggling because this episode will make anyone who listens feel less alone. Here it is.

2:27I'd like to take this moment to thank our headline sponsor, Wild Nutrition, who are offering MotherKind listeners 50 % off for the first three months. when I was pregnant with my first 10 years ago I asked a few nutritionist friends what's the best pregnancy supplement and they all said the same thing wild nutrition so I listened and these incredible supplements have kept me feeling great through two pregnancies starting this podcast writing a book a relocation and everything in between for the last decade so it's magical to me that I now get to tell you about this incredible woman founded brand every week.

3:04So the Food Grown Pregnancy and New Mother Multi is expertly formulated to support you from conception right through to postpartum and beyond. And Food Grown Magnesium is backed by a gold standard scientific study that shows it has the potential to help you sleep an extra 42 minutes a night and increase sleep quality by 32%. Yes, please. I know how much of a difference Wild Nutrition has made in my motherhood journey and we want you to experience it too. That's why they're giving Motherkind listeners an exclusive 50 % off for three months and a free personal consultation with a nutritional therapist.

3:40Just go to wildnutrition.com forward slash Motherkind to get started. That's wildnutrition.com forward slash Motherkind so you can feel a difference yourselves. Start 2026 rooted in wellness. T's and C's apply. I am so excited to welcome Amy, Jess and Vanessa. I'm just going to ask each of these wonderful women to tell us a little bit about themselves. So Jess, why don't you start? Tell us just a little bit about your setup and what's going on for you currently. So I'm 36. I live in Oxford and I work as a trauma therapist in the NHS. And I've got a lovely husband called Ben and three children, lovely children.

4:25So I've got Rafferty, who is seven, Delilah, who is five, and Ernie, who is one, just one. So Raff and Delilah are at school full time. And Ernie goes to a childminder locally for three days a week when I'm at work. And I've just gone back to work four weeks ago. Yeah, well, we're definitely going to ask you about what that experience has been like. And also best names ever. What cute names. Absolutely. Amy, tell us a bit about your setup. I'm Amy. I have three children as well. So three boys, Alfie, who is nine, Harrison, who is six, and Oscar, who is four. Lovely husband as well, James. We live in Surrey and the oldest two are at school.

5:14The little one is at nursery a few days a week. And I am sort of full-time mumming at the moment having a bit of a career break dabbling a little bit but um taking a break from I was a strategy consultant in the city for a long time and finished that after my second child thank you and I'm really looking forward to diving into what it's been like for you pausing that paid work because I know that before children you had like this kind of superstar career and so I'm really interested in what that shift and that change has been like for you. Vanessa, tell us your setup. I'm Vanessa. I have a three-year-old girl.

5:59Her name is Imogen and she's nearly four. She'll be starting school this year. My husband's name is Jack and we recently moved out of London into Buckinghamshire and I'm in full-time employment at the moment. I work in property. I've been back at work for about two years now since I've had my daughter. So let's start with your experiences of returning from mat leave because I think if ever there's a moment where we feel just, God, just that full range of emotions, we feel so often the lack of that support, we feel how maybe the structures and the systems just aren't set up. And I see that almost universally.

6:50Jess, what's your experience been like going back this third time? Well, I guess previously, just to say, when I went back to work after having Raph and Delilah, I had a bit longer off. So I had sort of 18 months off and then I had two years off when I had Raffi. So this is my sort of shortest maternity period of just under a year. And I guess I wanted to take my learnings from my previous returns to work, which I'd found really difficult before. I'd found just leaving my babies very difficult and separating from them, just getting back into work and being sort of confident and capable in the workplace, extremely challenging.

7:36And just, I'd sort of lost myself in the process of having a baby and becoming a mum each time. And I hadn't really realised until I'd gone back to work that that had happened. So until I was in a room with professionals where we weren't talking about sleep schedules or weaning, I was like, oh my God, I've got nothing to say. I can't add any value to these conversations. So this time I wanted to do it a bit differently and sort of learn from my previous two returns to work. And I basically just tried to prepare myself as much as I could. So I tried to get in place really quickly. Well, not quickly, but quite soon.

8:24When Ernie was about six months old, I made contact with work about my return to work and just trying to get a date in. So I knew when the sort of end of my maternity leave was happening. And that wasn't because I was so desperate to get back to work. It was just because it made me feel quite anxious, not knowing, not having a sort of certain date that I was going back. And I also kept in touch with work informally. So I popped in a few times for a cup of tea. And so they could meet Ernie. I was texting colleagues, you know, I met up with a couple of people over the year, just to keep a toe in.

9:02I didn't really want to know anything about work. I just wanted to stay very loosely connected to work. I also started Ernie's childcare a bit sooner. So he started doing settling in sessions a couple of months before he actually needed to. So he was just doing an hour or two a couple of times a week for about six to eight weeks, just so that we could both get used to that transition of being together all of the time to not being together all of the time. And the same with my older two. So things like clubs, different people picking them up, breakfast, you know, morning club, that sort of thing, just as a sort of tasters really, so that it wasn't that I was going back on the Monday and everything was new for everybody.

9:51And I did all of this prep and I was feeling, I wouldn't say confident, but I felt more prepared than I have done before. and then I went back and I had all of those feelings that I had before of just anxiety. I felt really sad about leaving Ernie and not being around for all of the drop-offs and pick-ups. I also felt really vulnerable going back to work and doing the work that I do where we are immersed really in trauma. I felt really porous to that and really susceptible and I guess not very resilient. So it was really difficult. It has been quite difficult to go back and just readjust to the new normal.

10:35There's this kind of perception, isn't there, that because it's your third child, that it in some way would be easier. But what I'm hearing is that it's actually been, would you say, the hardest return that you've had? I think so. Yeah. And I don't know if that's because it is my third and final baby I guess that's probably in the mix but it also feels like the more children I've had the more complex our family has become because there's more dynamics to there's more people to think of and consider so it has been more difficult and I think this is my third matrescence as well that I'm going through and I'm much more aware of that stuff now and what's going on for me and all of the tensions in my life and, you know, adding work into the mix of that.

11:25I think I've just been more awake to that stuff. Whereas before I had those experiences, but I didn't have the vocabulary to name what was going on for me. Now I do. And I found that to be a really helpful experience. But also sometimes ignorance can be bliss, you know just not knowing sometimes is a bit like oh I wonder what this is about but now I know and it's it's just putting yeah words to some of that emotional distress I think but yeah it has been more difficult I think for a number of reasons especially in a job that you're doing because you know you're caring at home for three little ones and then in your role as well you're caring for people, you know, at the most desperate point in their lives.

12:15How do you care for yourself in the midst of that? It's really hard to. And I do think there's an element of, you know, the work that I do really does contribute to how difficult that is. But, you know, I haven't always worked in trauma services. And I think it is the balance of trying to get some of some space for yourself is very difficult as a mum and a mum that's actually in paid work or not in paid work. In some ways, I think it's a bit easier being in paid work because I have more pockets of time without my children needing me and requiring something from me. But I think the thing that's helped me and that does help me is just offloading some of this stuff.

12:58So in a professional way, really utilising my supervision to offload some of the responses that I might be having to the work. I'm really landing it so I try not to take that home with me but also at home you know just saying to my husband my god they're driving me mental or like we do quite a bit of tapping in and tapping out like one of us can clear up the chaos from dinner whilst the other one baths them so I think yeah sharing some of the load when and where I can is a way of looking after myself in that yeah I love that you said I think and I think that offloading can happen in so many different ways kind of it doesn't need to be kind of in a professional setting Amy what was it like for you when you went back to work after your first and second so many of the things that Jess said then were so like resonating with me I think so I remember walking in I'd had about 13 months off with Alfie.

14:00I worked at a big city consultancy firm. And I remember walking back in and feeling like I had changed so much, but no one else seemed to have changed and no one else seemed to recognize that I've changed. And it was a Monday morning and the Monday morning meetings were always about what sales have we done this week. And I just sat in that room and thought, I don't care about any of this right now like I want to know what my baby's doing and is he having fun and so yeah I found it a real struggle I think because I just felt that I had changed so much and no one else was recognizing that or really being aware of it and I mean this this was about eight years ago and I think the consulting firms then had fewer women and things so that probably played a part in it but it was a struggle for a long time and I think I actually never really got over the struggle of feeling like I was different to everyone else in that company at that level it was quite male heavy and I felt it again when I went thought about going back after my second one and that that was quite a reason not to I thought I need to do something different because that just didn't work for me going back after Alfie really yeah it's quite amazing isn't it the lack of awareness of not you know matrescence I know it's a new word but even just the concept that someone walking back after maternity or paternity will have like a really different value set a really different energy levels time constraints all of it it's kind of wild that we're expected to just slot back in as if nothing would had happened yeah it's actually wild like when we think yeah feels quite lonely I never did that return to work back into corporate because I'd left by then but I can imagine the organization I was in, in the city as well, how it would have felt.

15:55And I think I would have felt very lonely in that experience. Yeah, that's a really good word, actually. That is definitely how I felt. And I do remember there were a couple of the male directors who sort of picked up on it and had some chats with me. But it was quite different for them. Their wife had had longer time off, etc. And it'd be interesting to know if going back now into that setting where there has been more paternity leave and shared paternity, whether it would be the same or whether actually everyone is more waking up to the changes that happen after a baby, as you say, both for men and women.

16:31And Vanessa, you had a super challenging return. Didn't you tell us about it? going back to work was quite daunting and I felt I wasn't ready as well I felt like I wasn't ready but I had to go back because you know we have bills to pay and I didn't feel very supported I didn't have any any real kit days and on one of those days I was told that I might be at risk of redundancy so that was that kind of added to the the worrying of going back to work and I mean when I did go back it was quite it was a bit daunting I felt like what you said Amy in terms of everybody just acting normal but I felt like the odd one out and it's like what am I doing here and I also felt my brain just wasn't in that logical kind of mindset as well to think about work and it wasn't important in my world of being on on maternity leave when I did go back the environment of the workplace was also quite tense because a lot of other people were worried about their jobs so nobody was thinking about oh you've come back to work let's try and help you out or anything like that it was more of a case of everybody is worried and everybody's at risk so it was it wasn't a very good I didn't feel like a lot of people cared that much and it did prompt me to seek therapy actually when I returned to work I had coaching had group coaching I also had a therapist as well and that helped me navigate that time especially around that return because it felt like capacity wise it was like how am I supposed to do full-time work and have a child it just I couldn't fathom it like my brain just could not fathom it at all so yeah it was it was very tough and then I had to kind of accept where I was and then try and find some way out of it in terms of trying to take back control of where I wanted to work and where I wanted to be and start looking for roles and try and kind of accept where I was going or not going as it were but it was really it was really tough it was really really tough so yeah yeah I'm so sorry you had that I mean it's just you know we hear about these horror stories all the time don't we have you know people being made redundant you know when they announce they're pregnant on maternity leave when they get back and I just feel like it is the most vulnerable time in a woman's life particularly from a mental health perspective and to have experienced that I think is really really challenging but I feel really inspired with what you did it sounds like you quite quickly thought right what can I control here and you you did go off and get a really good new role didn't you I did it is one of those things where you can't see you can't see until afterwards and afterwards you can see where all the dots connected and and where it was actually really good for you in terms of career moves and organizations and you know COVID really changed where I was as well so it was just going into a future that just didn't align with me anymore and going through matrescence it didn't align with me anymore as well so maybe that's one of the reasons why I was made redundant because maybe I just didn't fit anymore I don't know yeah but I did yeah I I was quite hard on myself because I did feel like, oh, well, it's going to be me, isn't it?

20:33Because I've been off work for the last year and I've immediately got to do this interview. So compared to everybody else, I felt a little bit disheartened by that. But actually looking elsewhere gave me a bit more momentum. It's so interesting, isn't it? Because I think, you know, there's that sort of phrase about things happen for you, not to you. And I think when you're in it and someone says that to you, you honestly just want to punch them, don't you? Because it's so unhelpful when you're in it. But I think when you move through something, like you said, I love that phrase, connecting the dots backwards.

21:10It's then you can sort of see, oh, actually, that probably wasn't that line for me. And being made redundant, even though it was horrific at the time, has pushed me on to this new thing. But at the time, you're so right. It's almost impossible to have that mindset, I think. because also we go and we flip into survival mode like you said you know the mortgage doesn't stop and you've also got child care costs which you know up until that point perhaps we haven't had to pay so I think yeah it's hugely hugely challenging and I'm just so happy that you're in a role now that feels more aligned and and supportive I wanted to ask each of you about you know because you're all in such different work setups and I thought it'd be really interesting to ask each of you, what is working about your work setup and what isn't working?

22:03Because I think hearing that and having this episode where we're kind of looking behind the curtain and, you know, bringing this level of honesty with people with all these different circumstances and setup, I think would be really helpful for people to hear. So Amy, I'll come to you first. What's working about your current setup and what isn't working what do you want to change yeah so I think what's working is that I am able to be at all the things that the kids are doing which you know three kids in a school setting particularly in summer term the sports days and the reception award day and and all of that I can be there I can be fully present and when they want someone for the school trip or so that is great but what isn't working for me is really knowing what's my values and what's my purpose and having some self-confidence around that like I've I you know I was got all the good grades at school went to a great university got the high powered city job and success was always about achieving the next level or achieving the promotion the pay rise and that was very clear to me of that became what my value was and my purpose and and gave me some confidence in a room to have what to speak about or I'm doing this amazing project or I've been to this country and now I absolutely love being with the kids and and I love that but then I almost get worried about going to social events of what can I add because all I've done is be at the school or do this so it's like what's my purpose and how do I measure what success means for me in this next phase of life and I think I've sort of been dabbling on and off of then going back and doing a bit of freelance consulting but then I struggle with making that work because it's temporary and it's really intense for a few weeks or a month or two so then I don't get to have that balance of still seeing the kids and doing all the things I want to so I think that's the challenge for me of how can I find something that works of still being able to be with the children but feeling like I have a values and purpose and success really yeah and I feel like well you've just hit on something that is so universal is that you know what is success to me now because I'm yet to meet a woman who goes through her matrescence and defines it in the same way yeah I haven't met one yet who who emerges for lots of women it becomes the ambition sets on fire that was definitely my experience and my version of success became far more kind of ambitious and purpose-driven than ever before and then for lots of people it takes on completely different meanings it's so fascinating and yeah it's so difficult to give ourselves the space to actually think about that question isn't it like what does success mean to me now and how do I want this work set up to look?

25:05I think almost everyone listening will probably have that question, you know, in their mind.

25:19Jess, what's working for you and what's not working? And how do you define success? Beth? What's working for me at the minute is, and I am only freshly back, but I think what's working is even though I'm not as presently available, you know, physically available to my children because I'm now working 30 hours of each week, I do feel that I'm more emotionally available to them because I don't feel so utterly depleted by mothering 100 % of the time. I don't think going to work is a break from mothering because I don't think mothering ever stops. They're constantly in my mind, you know, always. But just the physicalness of all the drop-offs, all the clubs, all the thinking, all the cooking, the cleaning, the housework, all of that stuff, I feel like I am slightly separate from it now, or I have a separation from it.

26:20And it's really enabled me to feel just more available to my children when I'm with them. Like I come home from work and I'm really conscious that we've got two, two and a half hours before they go to bed and I need to play with them. I need to be with them. We need to think about what their day's been like and what they had for their lunch and who they sat next to and what they were playing at break time. And we need to play, you know, whatever silly games on the trampoline or football in the garden. Whereas before, I don't think I did that. I was so bogged down in, we've got to have tea, then we need to clean up.

26:56You know, we need to get you in the bath. We've got loads, I've got loads to do. So I just feel like that's really enabled me to have a bit of a step back and just be more emotionally available for them. And I guess in contrast, what isn't working is I'm exhausted. I'm wrecked. Like my baby still doesn't sleep through. Well, he's never slept through. Like we're fully up five, six times a night. And you know, as the early hours creep in, I'm thinking, oh my God, I've got to be up soon. So I do feel really knackered and I was knackered before, but there's something about having to sort of get my professional hat on and drive into town and be ready to work that I am finding exhausting and then doing a day's work and coming home and it all still being really full on.

27:47So I do, I just feel knackered. And in terms of success, it feels like a really difficult question, but when I think about it, it's sort of related to what's working for me at the minute. And it's just the quality of time that we have together as a family. And I also think how much we're laughing because, you know, I really miss my children when I'm not with them. Genuinely, I miss them. I love them and they've got fantastic personalities. But sometimes it was, I've been bogged down by the chores and the mundaneness and the relentlessness of that, I think. So for me, you know, what does success mean now is how much we're laughing and together and apart, you know, because I want to laugh at work as well.

28:38I want to have fun with my colleagues. I want to have fun with my family. So to me, that's, you know, how I measure success is how much we're enjoying ourselves. I absolutely love that. I had a coach once and we were talking about this question about what does success mean? And I asked her, how do you define it? She said, oh, it's very simple for me. If I'm having fun, I'm successful. And I thought, oh my gosh, I love that. Like the simplicity of it. And it reminds me of what you're saying. I absolutely love it. I also completely relate to what you're saying about I've, I've done both. I've worked kind of four days a week.

29:18I'm working the most I've ever worked now. And I've also not worked for, you know, long stretches in the past nine years. And I am a such a better mother when I add paid work into the mix. Not true for everyone. That's my individual experience, but I just am. Those long days, you know, where it's like seven till seven and you have 12 hours together. I found it really hard to kind of squeeze the joy out of those moments where it's exactly what you're saying. When you put boundaries around that time that you have together, I find it so much easier to put the phone away, to be totally present, to just, I'm so efficient compared to when I was having hours and hours and the days just dragged and dragged and dragged.

30:06Whereas now I'm like, you know, so much more efficient and so much more present. So I think I completely relate to that. Vanessa, tell us about what's, what's working for you, what's not working. And yeah, what's that idea of success mean to you? At the moment, what's going well is I work flexible hours, which is quite good. I do a nine day fortnight, which really works for me. And I am quite lucky with where I am now because they are really supportive of being flexible in the way I work. if you know if my daughter is not well or anything like that there's I don't feel like this awkward pressure or anything like that when it comes to trying to navigate that so my work's very supportive in that aspect so I do like that and I do find that it gives me a bit of autonomy over my time as well when I when I went back and even now just having that break is I try and use it as well as possible and like like you said Zoe as well it's like you do become more efficient with your time because you just know how much needs to be done in a way and some things I suppose that isn't working well is I I tend to I tend to put a little pressure on myself in terms of how I show up as a mother I tend to want to always get it right and also want to always get it right at work too and I think sometimes I just have to it's not that striving for perfection it's kind of going with the peaks and the troughs of how I'm showing up as a mother so you know I'll read a great parenting book or I'll apply this method and then the next day it's all out the window and I find that sometimes I find that most hard to deal with in motherhood but I do think just having I am trying to change my mind around that in terms of just having the awareness of how I'm showing up is enough for me and it's enough for her and just in terms of success it's similar to you know the being happy kind of thing because I find I'm successful or I've had a successful day if I've done something that's one percent better almost or I've done something that is more in aligned in alignment with with me with my authentic self so that might look different on one day to another day but it's just more of a case of you know if I have an intention of my day and I've just spent two minutes of that day remembering that intention and then again the next day and then again the next day to me that's being really successful it's kind of like that consistency of good habits for yourself that's what I think is being successful and looking after yourself and if you can just feel good about that I think that's a successful time that's a successful life you know it's all those micro those micro moments of just looking after yourself and making good choices for yourself and also on the flip side where you're not doing that or you don't do that it's not beating yourself up it's just kind of going, oh, okay, I did that.

33:45That's okay. You know, onto the next day. Yeah. I love that. I love as well how, I wonder if this is a matricence thing or just maybe a maturing thing is that sort of in our early careers and sort of twenties and, you know, I think we sort of sold this huge idea of success and it's, you know, this salary, this job title, this hat, you know, whatever it is, lots of the externals and what I'm hearing from each of you. And actually it really resonates with me as well is that through that matricence process and into that kind of maturing womanhood we start to think about success in far more kind of feeling ways like Jess you said that it's actually like how am I feeling and Amy you alluded to that too and Vanessa you're talking about you know am I being authentic and you know am I I have an intention for this day like how I want to feel and am I leaning into that and I think that is so powerful and it's definitely not what we're taught.

34:42And it's really interesting whenever you look back on those books, like that book that I love, The Five Regrets of the Dying, it always talks about the opposite of that. For people that didn't do that, that kept that sort of big, shiny, glossy, chasing externals idea, often come to regret that. And I want to ask each of you, time just flies, I mean it's wild, but I wanted to ask each of you if you could speak directly from your experiences, if you could speak directly to kind of mothers wherever they're at on their paid work journey about something that you've learned what would you share Jess what would you share what was one thing that you've learned that you would you kind of want other people to hear I think for a really long time I haven't seen other people struggling or I've not wanted to see that.

35:39I've just seen people be really successful and breeze through things. And I think the most helpful thing that I've found is talking to other people, like just finding out how they're managing, how are they doing it all? And how does it look seamless? Because I think pretty much everybody I've spoke to, it's not seamless. And there's balls being dropped all over the place, which has helped me and my sort of everything's got to be perfect and this fantasy that everybody else is perfect and I'm not. So it's really helped just debunk that myth that I have. But it also has enabled me to connect with people and to pick up like golden bits of advice.

36:23You know, whether that be, I don't know, somebody told me about a different route to take to work on the back road. I would never have done that before. I would have always gone on the main road. Actually, that was just a really helpful piece of advice. And I only found that out because I was asking her about driving to work after drop-off in the middle of rush hour. You know, that sort of thing. I think just being able to talk, find out from other women how they're managing, how they're doing it. And it might be and often is totally opposite to what I've got going on. But there's always something I think to be gained from conversation.

36:59And I just think we need to talk about the more difficult stuff more. It's so true. And I do this, even me, if my job, and I know, I know the reality of the behind the scenes for most women, but I still get to pick up Sundays and everyone looks so put together. And so I'm like, you know, I might even present like that on the outside, who knows, but on the inside, I do not feel like that and it's just having that courage isn't it to share those insides a little bit more and to remember not to compare our insides to other people's outsides because it's very rare that the two match up isn't it amy what's something that you've learned that you you want to to share i think mine is that i'm always gonna be questioning in my mind and i think lots of mums are of oh is this the right thing i should be doing should i be doing this should i be doing that I think I sort of had a a linear path as a teenager through to university through to a job and it was always like that was the decision and you knew what the next one was and now that you've got multiple things to juggle and that you want to be doing um you're always going to be questioning am I making the right decision now and it's about trying to be a bit more self-confident and think I can be questioning but I can still also be just going with my gut and it'll be right for me and for my family and don't worry about the questioning niggle in my head just if it feels right let's go with it for now and nothing's forever things can change um you know you can make changes down the line yeah I love that it's so true as well I just think you know that sort of sequential ladder and then suddenly it's not just that the ladder gets taken away the whole wall gets taken away doesn't it for the first time in our lives often you know matricence is that time where we have to make decisions without a sort of proven track and we have to trust ourselves at a time when we're still trying to figure out who we even are as as mothers I think it's really difficult but I really liked what you said about just trusting myself and you know accepting that questioning is probably always going to be there but knowing that you can just trust yourself and everything you know nothing no experiences is ever wasted I kind of deeply deeply believe that Vanessa what's something that you've learned that you want to share I suppose that you're not as alone as you think you are and you're not going crazy as well because I honestly felt like I was losing my mind and similar to what Jess said about you know talking to people even if it's a coach or a therapist or a friend it's just reaching out and just saying this is how I'm feeling about this and and and knowing that you can go back to work and not feel like going back to work at the same time and you can hold both things at the same time you can want to kind of have a break and really miss your children at the same time I found that I was almost torn it was just like I'm so desperate for a break but I'm I'm so not ready to be apart from my daughter so it's you know it's kind of just that comfort in and validation with yourself and other people that have gone through it and um close people that can help and I found you know I'm not I know everybody doesn't have an NCT group but I found mine really supportive in in that as well so it's just yeah you're not alone and you're not crazy and what you're going through is just as important as how you show up for your family yeah it's so true as well isn't it just I remember I mean this is why it all started for me because I remember thinking no one else is talking about this am I actually crazy am I actually crazy yeah it's so true and I think the more that we can remember that, that, you know, you are not alone.

41:11That's how I found your podcast, the podcast as well. You know, it's like having a bit of companion on those laps, you know, the 50th lap of the park because they need to sleep. You know, there is help and there are people out there. I love that. Vanessa, sticking with you, I'll ask you the final question, which you'll know I ask at the end of every episode, is if you could give just one gift to all the mothers in the world what would that one gift be and why my gift would be for all mothers to know and realize how worthy they are I think worthiness is so important to understand because you should feel worthy of of having everything that you want to give your children and your family you know just how you would you know oh it's hot I need water my kids need water and they need this then they need that it's like you are worthy of having all of those things as well and you are worthy of of everything you need that you want and I think some of the sometimes we feel like we kind of overstep ourselves we're kind of oh you know I'll be all right I don't need that you know but it's like no you're worth you're worthy of or your parts desires you know and I think it'd be wonderful if we all believe that more for ourselves that's beautiful Jess what would your gift be this has consumed me this question because there's so many things I think mums deserve and and need but just before we were coming to record I was thinking, what would really help me at this moment in time?

42:58And it would be somebody to think what we should have for dinner every night. I would love that. Yes. That's all I want in this moment is someone else to think of what we should have for tea. Oh my gosh, that question, isn't it? Or that thought at four o 'clock, it's like, what are we going to have for dinner? And then I always think am I gonna have to do this for like another 15 years is this what adulting is yeah it's just what to make for tea that's my gift is that somebody else would think of it and ideally cook it make it yeah like Jess no one's ever said that and I think it's probably the best gift we've ever been given I love it I'm pleased Amy oh I don't feel like I can follow on from that one oh that was um I think mine is a bit related to my questioning point it's just more self-confidence to trust our own decisions like we we're the right mother for our kids we're the right wife for our family and you know and let's have the confidence in ourselves to do that and to find the joy and the laughter like you said Jess that's really hit home with me I think and I think it's let's be confident in the decisions we've made that they might not be forever for this stage of life and just enjoy what we're doing and not question ourselves so much.