Work Series: The Ultimate Guide to a Successful Return Post-Maternity - the proven formula that's helped thousands, with Jessica Chivers

0:07Welcome back to the Motherkind Work miniseries. We are very proudly supported by Wild Nutrition women's supplements. This is our eight part work mini series where I am diving into motherhood and work. And this week we are focusing on returning to work. I am joined by the brilliant Jessica Shivers, coach and psychologist, author of the returning to work handbook and founder of the Talent Keeper Specialists. Now Jessica has spent over two decades helping parents return to work with confidence and supporting organisations to create truly inclusive cultures. Together, we explore what it really takes to have a successful return to work, from getting your line manager on board to the key questions you need to ask yourself before stepping back into the workplace.

0:56Jessica also shares what she believes every organisation should be doing better to support returning talent. And trust me, it is advice everyone needs to hear. So whether you're planning your return, you've recently made the leap, or you're supporting others through the process, This episode is packed with insights, mindset shifts and empowering truths. So let's get to it.

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4:04Jessica, welcome. I'm so excited to be chatting to you today. And I am so curious about what drives you to do the work that you do. Oh, great question. I think Zoe, a lot of it is about hating waste. So before I had Monty and Artemis, I was already working for myself. And I guess when you work for yourself, every moment matters because it's your time, it's your money. And then when I had Monty, who's now 18, I was living in St. Albans where I still live. And there were loads of women who just had children at the same time as me having Monty, who were lawyers, accountants, senior marketing managers, and they were trading down Zoe in their careers because they couldn't get work commensurate with their skills and abilities less than five days a week.

5:03And that really, really got me quite angry because it felt like such a waste to have these skilled, experienced women doing something. And this is not denigrating lesser roles in society, but they were skilled and had all this knowledge to do the work they have been doing. And then they couldn't do it unless they wanted to work five days a week. So I'm driven by this trying to reduce waste and maximize potential. And how do you do that? Well, I'm a coaching psychologist and I spend most of my days working with mid to senior women, sometimes men, who are often coming back to work after a break.

5:43Lots of interference going on in their heads about stuff outside of work, stuff in work. And so my work is about helping them to work out what really matters, the resources they need, get very clear on their priorities, help them sort out their time and energy management so that they are bringing themselves as their very best to their work, doing the best work and carrying on in their careers rather than being wasted by not pushing on in their careers and sitting with this interference and sort of lacking in confidence and being afraid to ask for things that will help them to perform at their best in their work.

6:25So let's talk about maternity leave because that's really what I want to focus Tell me what you see as some of the really big challenges of people preparing to go off when they're off and coming back. So I think one of the things that I hear more than anything else is when people are coming back, worrying about how they will be perceived. You know, how will my colleagues perceive me now that I dot dot dot now that I am working less than five days a week, now that I can't travel the way that I could before. So it's sort of wondering and worrying more accurately about how they'll be perceived and then what the consequences will be of being perceived in that lesser way.

7:12So that's one thing. Another real big one is, can I do it? Can I still do my job? How will I do it? because a lot of the people coming back from maternity leave I'm working with are partnered with people who also have big jobs. So it's sort of like, well, we're adding in like a third job having, you know, I'm not trying to say that child's a job, but you know what I mean, in terms of the energy and the time it takes, how are we actually going to do this? That's a massive one. And then, you know, lots of emotion about coming back to work and guilt being, guilt being a really big one guilt about the choices I make him.

7:52So tell me how you would support someone because there'll be people listening, thinking tick, tick, tick, probably to all of those. And I think that concern about how are we going to do this is a very real one. How would you support someone and what tools would you give them to help them work out? Is this what I want? How do I come back confidently? How do I ask for what I want? Give us your coaching toolkit. Well, the people that I'm working with Zoe, they're fortunate because they're having coaching paid for by their organisation. So that's already a tick in the box that they're working for someone who wants them back and cares.

8:29And a big part of what I and my colleagues do is work with the person's line manager. So that's about educating the line manager to be doing and saying the right things at the right time. So before someone goes on leave, having the right kind of comms whilst they're away on leave, and then as they prepare to come back so that the line manager is sending the signal of, we care for you, we want you to come back, we believe in you, we're going to support you. So there's a whole line manager piece in our coaching toolkit. Another thing that we use is a psychometric called Strengths Profile. And this, in a nutshell, Zoe, it's really about helping the coachee to remember themselves at their very best.

9:20So we get them, once they've done the Strengths Profile, a strength is basically a skill that you find energizing. So it's something that you really enjoy to do. So we'll take the coachee back to before they went on leave and getting them thinking about their performance, their successes, what they were delivering so that they're reconnecting in their own minds with the professional that they are. That's the evidence. We're talking about stuff that they delivered in the past. And so getting them talking about those things is getting them ready to come back and to see themselves as, yeah, I can.

9:53I might not be working five days a week, but I am bringing some really great skills and experiences back to this organization. And I'm getting really granular here, but a particular tool or exercise that I do with people when they were working full time before, and they're coming back and thinking, gosh, how am I going to do it all? How am I going to be perceived and worrying about working less than five days a week? I'll say to them, okay, tell me what your boss would want you to do if you only worked one day a week? And that really focuses the mind on what is the key thing that I'm really good at, that other people can't do, that my boss really rates and sees in me.

10:38And most people can answer that pretty quickly. And then the build on that is to say, right and what would you be doing if you were working two days a week and it might be more of what they'd be doing on the first day or they might add in another element but we start to get really clear that so that fifth day that's all stuff that is not the stuff they should be doing so then we'll have a conversation if this is someone with um let's say eight direct reports we'll say okay so you're coming back four days a week who is going to do the stuff that you did on the fifth day. So it's a really nice opportunity for a leader coming back from leave to rethink what the team is doing and maybe stop doing some of the stuff the team was doing.

11:21So there are a couple of things that you'd see and hear in a coaching meeting. And what does a successful return to work look like for a woman? How do you know if it's successful? Well, again, another great question. And I was thinking about this and really I think about in the pre-work that we send to coaches, one of the provocations that we invite them to think about is, you'll know you've made a successful comeback if slash when dot, dot, dot. And everybody will write something different. and I'm thinking about a coachee that I've just started working with and she's a lawyer and she wrote a single sentence which is I'll be hitting my billable targets in a few months for someone else it might be I'll feel good about the choices that I've made and I'll feel like I'm doing a good job and of course if someone says I'll feel like I'm doing a good job I can't let them just get away with that, but I'll say, okay, what does that mean then?

12:28So again, getting quite detailed, quite forensic, what is a good job? What would the signs be? What feedback would you be getting? What in particular? So people will put the kind of broad brush things down, but then we'll really drill into it to make sure the coaching work that we're doing is aligned with what really matters to that person and what matters to the business as well. So it's different for everybody. But as a basic rule of thumb, people want to feel valued. They want to feel competent and they want to feel well and having a good time at work. So those are the things, a broad brush that I think if you're hitting those, you can say you've made a successful return to work.

13:13And what about at home? What do people say or what have you kind of witnessed in the time that you've been doing this work about what makes a successful return to work with our home life, domestic load, mental load, childcare, relationship with our children? Because we can't look at just the work side, right? Because then you're only looking at half of the picture. Well, so people will commonly say, my kids are happy. I'll never made a successful comeback if my kids are happy. So again, it's getting quite specific about what does that mean? And what about the amount of time you want to spend with the children, for example?

13:50What do you want to be doing? So it's helping people get really clear on what matters to them. And rather than just thinking the kids are happy. Okay, well, how will you know? And for a lot of people, it's about having the energy and the time to distribute around the things that matter to them in their home life. So it might be, I'll have made a successful comeback if I know that I'm seeing a particular friend at least once a fortnight, that I'm taking my children to their swimming lessons, that I am getting home for bath and bedtime at least three days out of five, things like that. But it's all so personal, Zoe.

14:35Everybody, you know, I've been working in this field for 20 years and different things matter to different people. And it will sometimes vary across culture and according to how that person has been parented themselves. So it's interesting, just how much it can differ. And some people will have some really specific things that say, I need to be able to do that. And if I'm doing that, I feel like I'm winning. Yeah. But I think the most important thing is asking the question, isn't it? And I think you've identified a few questions that definitely anyone listening who is returning or preparing to return or has just returned a year ago could start to ask themselves.

15:16And that is such an important one is how will I know when I feel successful at work and how will I know when I feel successful at home? Because as you say, every single person's definition will be completely different. Absolutely, because we're different.

15:40so tell me about what are some key milestones along the way when someone is preparing to go off and settle back in let's say for that first year how can someone support themselves by looking out for key milestones is it like you would they do a self three-month review a self six-month review? How do we use kit days? Tell us about that timeline and what tools and resources you can share with us. You've mentioned a few things there that I think are like kit days in themselves, Zoe, are worth unpacking as a really valuable thing to do. So I did some research years ago when I wrote my book, Mother's Work, and that's what, 13 years old now.

16:22And the research at the time showed that there was a lot greater number of people who wanted to have those kit days than were actually having them. But the people who were having kit days were reporting, feeling much more confident about returning to work. And so using those, not necessarily all 10 kit days, but making use of those kit days to go into the office, familiarize yourself with new processes, meet new team members, to be hiring new people in your team, conducting performance reviews, going to a conference, doing some learning. These are all great things. So we've got a platform, comebackcommunity.co.uk, with loads of resources behind the login wall for our coaches.

17:05And that's one thing on there, for example, is what is an effective kit day? What are the sorts of things that you can do in like a planning tool for kit days? So that's one really important thing. Another thing is thinking about getting your flexible working request in ahead of time if you want to work differently to how you were working before. So you need to be getting that in, having that conversation sort of 12 weeks before. Go and have a conversation with your line manager before you put a cold application in. It's always better to go and have a discussion and say, this is what I'm thinking.

17:38This is why I would like to work this way. And show that you have mitigated against any potential downsides by you working differently to how you worked before so that you're not making issues for your boss to solve. You can think about those proactively. You might even go and talk to some of your colleagues and say, look, if I was to do this, I'm thinking this is how we manage this. And then say, I've chatted to this person and this person, and this is how it could work. Make it easy for your boss to say yes. And then when you come back, I think it's so important that line managers and that returning team member work together to co-create a plan for the first three months.

18:23You might end up changing it, but scoping out what will you be doing over the next three months? What do we hope I will have delivered in that time? Or what actions will I have taken? What's the process? And build in a phased return, for example, because sometimes people will think, oh three months that's ages but then when you work it out and think well I'm doing a phased return I'm coming back two days for the first two weeks three days for the next two weeks four days for the next I'm setting myself up here aren't I do some maths that I'm not going to do but when you work it out there's not as many days as you think there might be so it's like ah right okay over the next three months there are just going to be say 20 business days and of those 20 business days It's one I'm out for conference.

19:13Another is a whole company meeting or whatever it might be. So really thinking about the time that you've got and what it's realistic to deliver in those three months. And over that time, we will always say to returning team members and their line managers, please, please, please have weekly one-to-ones. The line manager should send calendar invites to those weekly one-to-ones and say, the time is in my diary. if you think we don't need one every week you be the one to cancel but it's so important Zoe that the line manager sends that signal I'm holding time for you because you matter and I want you to feel comfortable I want to support you in feeling competent and getting back to that pre-leave performance or higher I think that that phased return is so important as well because if it's your first child what a lot of people don't realize is you know the nursery bugs you put your child in nursery and then they're ill for two weeks, really normal.

20:11Or, you know, just those difficulties with settling in or, you know, lots of people join a childcare setting, realise it doesn't work for them. And then they have to find another nursery, nanny, childminder, family set up. So I think as much breathing space as you can give yourself in that return, particularly thinking about those childcare challenges is probably really wise. Can anyone, Is that a request that you think people should be making as part of when they're doing those kit days? Tell us a little bit about making that phased return request. Some organisations have a phased return approach baked in.

20:49So the expectation is that you will phase back. And companies can make that administratively easy by an individual using a crude holiday, for example. So they could return on their full pay, but be using some accrued holiday to take those non-working days. Or, for example, there are some businesses who take an approach which is when you come back, we pay you how you were contracted before. But for the first four weeks, we don't expect you in every day. So there's a ramping up built in there. And as a psychologist, I'm thinking about how important a phased return is from an adjustment point of view.

21:34So you're going from being at home in control of your own environment, in control of your own time, even silly things that we like, well, you and I probably don't think they're silly, but, you know, being able to have the heating and the lighting just as you want it, being able to, you know, I was going to say come and go as you please, but clearly we don't do that with a baby and a toddler. but you know you've got a bit more control over your life and then you come back to work and it's much more regimented it's really busy you've got the language of business that you're trying to get your head around again they're two really contrasting worlds and the same goes with people coming back from sick leave for example I do a lot of work in that space as well So this transition really helps people to manage their energy and come back and build up, I think, more quickly and more comfortably and confidently than if they simply throw themselves in full time from the get go with no adjustment period.

22:36I love what you were just saying as well, because as you were talking, I was thinking about self-compassion and what a huge shift it is to go back to work. You know, however long you've had off, even if you haven't, you know, for me working for myself, I never really had full off. But even as you're ramping up again, I know that I was way too hard on myself. and I suspect that you see that a lot as well, that women are thinking, why am I not going at full pace? Why am I finding this more difficult? How do we help mothers returning have more grace and compassion for themselves? And how do we help their colleagues, line managers, organization have the same grace that I think we just desperately need?

23:21I don't think unless you've been through it, you really understand what it feels like. Well, there's a piece of research that I really like to site to people returning to work. And it was done by Oxford Economics back in 2015. And it was exploring the cost of re-recruiting someone when an employee leaves. And the interesting nub of this research is that it takes about six months for a new team member to be adding value. Now, Now, if someone's returning to the same employer, clearly that's a little bit different to being a new employee. But the idea is the same, that you're coming from doing something really different to what you're coming back to.

24:09And this research is saying six months for a new joiner to get up to speed might not take you six months. But think in that kind of ballpark, coming back to work, taking six months and seeing it as a transition. Zoe. So that's a key word that I say all the time to people coming back into their line managers, is see the return as a transition and not as an event. It's a period of time when you'll be doing things a bit differently to how you were doing things before and how you will be again. So let me make this concrete. So for example, let's say you would always be a really vocal contributor in meetings.

24:54You would have read the agenda, you'd have formed some ideas, you'd be confident to put your view across in that meeting. Well, in that transition phase, when you're coming back from maternity leave and you haven't got all the context because you haven't been in the meetings that have led up to the meeting that you're sitting in now, a great thing to do right at the very beginning is to say, really pleased to be here. I am X many weeks back from maternity leave. I'm going to stay deliberately quiet and soak it all up and be like a sponge. And so what you're doing there is, because a lot of coaches will say they feel really embarrassed when they go into meetings and worry about, people are going to think, why am I in there if I'm not adding anything?

25:39Or people are going to ask me things and put me on the spot. And I'll say, no, just set your stall out at the start and say, I'm going to be deliberately quiet. I'm listening, I'm absorbing, I'm assimilating. So that's a different behavior in that transition period to how you were before, which is quite vocal, offering an opinion, asking questions, and that's how you will be again. But in that transition period, you're doing something different because you're getting your head back in the game. You're finding your way, you're feeling your way, you're learning, you're assimilating. And it's really tiring, which is why building in some working from home is great because then you can have naps during the day, for instance.

26:17And we'll tell line managers that we're working with about these things and say, you know, watch for tiredness. This is a transition and it's tiring coming back to work after a break. You know, even if the person was coming back from, say, sick leave rather than having a child, it's tiring. But then when you add in a child and broken sleep and less sleep, God, we need to give ourselves grace because our brains are working so hard. Yeah. And I think as the woman, we kind of know that feeling, but I wonder what you see and hear about the reception of that in organizations, because we hear so much, don't we, about women hiding the fact that they want to have a child or feeling like they've got to perform extra well because of the women that are coming behind them.

27:06They don't want it to feel like in any way that they are, you know, less performing because they've been off. Tell me what you see about that dynamic. Well, for sure. I hear that. I see that. And that's part of our role working with line managers is to get them to understand what this is like. So my opening gambit on any call I have with a line manager where the coaching is to do with someone coming back to work from a break is to say, have you got experience of having a significant break from work yourself? and quite often someone will say yeah I had three months gardening leave before this job or yeah I broke my leg skiing in Val d 'Isere when I was 26 and you know we work with a certain kind of organization and line manager I'm thinking financial services Zoe and lawyers okay so then I'll say, right, what was it like then for you when you came back after six weeks being away from the office, nursing your broken leg?

28:11And then some empathy will start to kick in and they'll say, oh God, yeah, actually it did feel a bit awkward. Or let's say the line manager has no lived experience. I might say then, and have you got a close family member who has experience of taking loop. Oh yeah, my wife. Yeah, I've got two kids. Oh, right. Okay, great. Tell me about what your wife said about her return to work. Oh, well, yeah. So she blah, blah, blah. And then they're off. And then you can use that as the coach to really dig into and help the line manager think about their direct report and how they as the line manager need to show up for their direct report and support their direct report in coming back into the business.