Work Series: You’re Not Imagining It — The System Is Rigged Against Working Mothers, with Jane van Zyl

0:07Hey and welcome to this episode of Motherkind and our special eight part work series. We are proudly sponsored by Wild Nutrition's Women's Supplements. I'm your host Zoe Blaski and this is a special mini-series and we are taking a deep dive into paid work and motherhood. Feedback from you, our community, is that this is one of the biggest challenges faced by us mothers and when I did a poll on stories a massive 76 % of you said you wanted to change some aspect of your paid work. So my greatest hope is that this eight-part series supports you, offers you guidance, inspiration, and of course, because it's mother kind, gives you solid tools and takeaways that you can use to feel more confident and empowered wherever you're at with your relationship to paid work.

0:58So whether you are currently in paid work or not, or any variation thereof, I really, really hope that this series feels not only inspiring, but also supportive. Last week, I kicked off the series by sharing my story and revealing the mistakes and regrets that I have in my nine years as a working mother growing this platform. The feedback has been, I've got to say, incredible from that episode. So many of you saying you feel seen, validated, and it was actually nice to get to know a little bit of behind the scenes of Motherkind and the podcast. So if you hadn't listened to that already, then I'd really encourage you to make time for that.

1:32This week, we are going straight where we need to for the first interview episode of the series and that is to the big picture. I always think with anything in life we should look at the big picture first, the systems and the structures that we are operating in. Why? Because that helps us to make sense of our individual experiences. We always have to understand the waters we're swimming in to make sense of our strokes. So this week I'm joined by the incredible Jane von Sale, CEO of Working Families, which is the UK's national charity for working parents and carers. And I'm so excited to bring you this episode and Jane as our expert because Jane brings such a rare and powerful perspective.

2:25She is at the heart of the conversations between government, between employers and thousands of working parents. There probably isn't anyone better placed in the UK to understand the challenges, the opportunities and the real systems at play for working parents. So we talk about the motherhood penalty, we talk about the truth about flexible work, we talk about why shared parental leave still isn't working and what real systemic change looks like. Jane also shares practical and empowering advice for anyone who feels unseen or unsupported in their workplace and offers a vital reminder that we all need to hear that you are enough.

3:12This episode is packed with insight, it's packed with data, honesty and hope. So let's get into it. I wanted to share a little bit more with you about our new headline sponsor Wild Nutrition, the incredible female founded brand, which is raising the bar for women's supplements. Wherever you are on your motherhood journey, it can feel like your own wellbeing is often at the bottom of the list. And at times I've been there too, which is why Wild Nutrition's food grown supplements have been my go-to for years. Their supplements are different. They are made with ingredients as close to their original food form as possible.

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4:35So just head to wildnutrition.com forward slash motherkind to claim yours. That's wildnutrition.com forward slash motherkind. And if it doesn't work for you in 30 days, they will refund you. T's and C's apply. Jane, welcome. I'm absolutely honoured that you are joining us for our Motherhood and Work series today. I'm absolutely delighted to be invited, Zoe, so it's a great pleasure to be here. I want to start the conversation focusing on the macro picture, and then I want to bring us down into talking about individuals and the micro experiences that we have. So you have such a unique vantage point.

5:14The amount of working parents that you speak to, the connections you have with government and policy and with organisations. There's probably no one better place to certainly a handful of people would have that same vantage point. So it's going to be absolute gold for us to hear what you see from that vantage point. Tell us, sitting where you are now, what are some of the challenges that you see across the board for working parents? So the first thing to say really is that it's definitely a gendered experience. We at Working Families hear from working parents and carers who phone us on our helpline.

5:52We then also work with employers and we do the policy piece, as you've mentioned. So we understand what's not working. We understand what's possible and we know what needs to change. The biggest challenge for women is being women. and the fact that actually within the society in which we live, there is the assumption that it is always going to be the women who are doing the caring. And that doesn't change. So that's the biggest thing that actually we need to fight against and really think about, not just on a societal level, but also very much on an individual level. The way in which that plays out is the best example I can think of is that whenever we talk to parents about the cost of childcare, it is always assumed that the cost of childcare is going to be reckoned against the mother's salary.

6:48Yeah. As opposed to being thought about as a family cost from both parents' salaries. Now, of course, I'm talking about people who are lucky enough to be in two-parent households. And for single people, this is obviously a very, very different experience. So the biggest challenge then is how do you square that circle? How do you say, well, actually, as a family, this is the way in which we want to live. This is the way in which we want to manage our lives when there is so much within society that mitigates against that. So there isn't a lot of help with childcare costs, although that's a much improved situation than it was a year or two ago.

7:33There isn't the ability to get promoted if you're working part time. And that's what most women are doing when they work, is they work part time in some way. And so that penalty, that motherhood penalty remains in place. And so it can be really difficult to challenge that. Tell us more about that motherhood penalty, because I think we talk so much about the gender pay gap, which is also, you know, very real and expanding. But really, when you sort of zoom into the gender pay gap, what you see is that a huge proportion of that is down to actually the motherhood penalty. Tell us about that. Absolutely.

8:12And the motherhood penalty applies to all women, even if they're not mothers. So the assumption with women often is that they will go on and have children, that they will go on and have caring responsibilities. And particularly, there's that sandwich generation, people who are having to continue looking after children, but then also, particularly in an aging society in the UK, which doesn't have a great social infrastructure when it comes to social care, there's still that element of having to do that caring as well. So the UK's gender pay gap for full-time employees stands at 7%, which is a slight decrease from 2023 when it was 7.5%.

8:59But if you think about all employees, including part-time workers, the gap is 13.1 % down from 14.2 % the previous year. So that's why I say the motherhood penalty is not just around women who are mothers, because the assumption is that if you think of full-time workers, it is the vast majority of women who don't have children who work full-time, but there is still a 7 % gender pay gap. So it's even worse if you are working part-time. Tell us some more about that motherhood penalty and the loss of earnings and the fatherhood bonus. So off the top of my head, I'm trying to remember the stats, you'll have them.

9:48Fathers on average get 30 % increased pay when they become fathers because they're perceived to be more responsible, family men. What's the increase in pay when a woman becomes a mother? None. There's a drop in pay. Decrease in pay. Sorry. Yes. So the first thing to consider is that when you are deciding to have children and have children and then go on to maternity leave, you'll only get 90 % of your salary for the first six weeks of your maternity leave, which is really terrifying. because it then means that we know that in the UK, you can take one year's maternity leave. On average in the UK, women take nine months.

10:34But the moment that you start looking at women on lower incomes, they are taking less than six months because it's simply unaffordable for them to carry on. Yeah. So for women, when they become mothers, the first thing that happens is that they take time off. And if you're giving birth, you need, you know, the French believe you need full six months to recover physically. There is also then the idea of how you are going to reorganize your life, how you're going to bond with your baby, all of the things that people do or mothers do when they have children. And we live in a society where fathers are simply not getting that push to actually parent.

11:22Of course, it isn't the case that men don't want to parent. It absolutely is the case that men do want to be fathers and do want to participate in the lives of their children. And when you look at factors around how happy people are in society, the happiest people are married men. The unhappiest people are married women. You know, so there is that idea that women have so much to juggle. They don't just go to work and be at work. When they're at work, they are still usually the first person on call when it comes to schools. They're usually the first person on call when it comes to any kind of illness.

12:04And then, although in my experience, this is improving, there is also the kind of the subtle discrimination that happens at work, where women are the ones who are expected to be nice and kind and supportive and empathetic. And so the kind of emotional responsibility for colleagues sits with the women. And that's obviously a disadvantage. But to get back specifically to parents and working, the biggest challenge is not getting enough money for the maternity leave that you take. And then finding if you're coming back and working part time, either because your choice is to spend more time with your children or because you physically can't work full time, particularly when you look at the costs of childcare.

12:55What then happens is you just don't get promoted. So if you are working part time, you are only one fifth as likely to be promoted as your full time colleague. So, of course, what that then means is women simply aren't getting promoted into those senior roles. we love job shares because within job shares those although it's a tiny percentage of jobs that are done as a job share people in those roles are getting the promotions because the role is seen as complete and we need to find a different language to use about part-time because the implication for part-time is that you're part interested you're part there but that's obviously not the case.

13:42It simply is that you are not working as a full-time equivalent and what should be happening of course is that the expectations of you within that role will be of you achieving at exactly the same rate but a smaller volume of work and even then what women are finding quite often is that the expectations of them working part-time are that actually they I'll be able to achieve so much more than somebody working full time. And of course, it is the case that when you have lots to juggle, and when you are a busy person, you do end up being able to do more, you become more efficient with your time, more effective.

14:26But that really does mean that people in full time roles, you know, have a double advantage compared to people working part time. It's so fascinating, isn't it? I read a study from PwC, which they'd looked at all different types of workers and found that the most productive across the board was part time women. And that completely unsurprised me. But I think, you know, there's this flexibility paradox, as it's known, isn't it? Where, you know, you might be part time or four days, but you're actually there's no reduction in workload. Do you see that? And what can someone do about that? Yeah, we absolutely see that.

15:04It's also tied in with the fact McKinsey did some work many years ago, and they had a look at their parents who were employed by McKinsey were both consultants. So this was in a two couple household where both people were working for McKinsey. And what they found in the end was that one of those parents then either worked part time or stopped working entirely because the volume of work that was expected from the people working full time wasn't compatible with having a family. So it actually wasn't possible to do the work in the hours set. And that's something I think is a problem with our entire society.

15:49You know, the more senior you become in an organization, it tends to be that the more hours that are expected of you. And there's a kind of an emotional burden and an intellectual burden of carrying that work back with you home and on holidays and over the weekend and all of that kind of stuff. So there's a real challenge about can jobs be done in the time allocated? And one of the things that working families really focuses on when we talk to employers is good quality job design. making sure that the job is human sized. Can the job be done in the hours that are allocated to it? And that's so important for people in the workplace who are working part time or who are working compressed hours or four days or whatever it happens to be.

16:36It's a really tough conversation to have with your line manager, but it is the only way that you will get change is to have that human to human conversation and be absolutely clear about what are the things that I must achieve and what are the nice to haves. It's so challenging though, isn't it? Because there's such a power play that often women shouldn't feel like this, but I know so many mothers do that they feel grateful to have a job that perhaps is part-time or a job share or some flexibility that they almost then don't want to say that this workload is too much for me. It makes them look perhaps like they're not committed, not successful.

17:15Do you hear that? Yeah, we absolutely hear that from women all the time. And that's the lived experience of so many people that we all know, all of the mothers that we know, who are committed to the work that they do, who are interested in their careers. But so many women, once they get a job they like with the flexibility they need, and sometimes it's the flexibility they need that becomes the most important thing, they are so reluctant to move. Because again, back to that point I made earlier, is that however it is that you want to live your lives, however equal you are at home, the challenge is that structurally we live in a society where organizations don't advertise what their policies are.

17:56So you see a fantastic new job advertised, which actually would be great for you to go to. It would be good for the organization that you're leaving because they would have the opportunity then to promote or change or do whatever it is they want to do with that role. But you're just not getting that confidence about moving to a new role because you cannot guarantee that you're going to get the flexibility there. And depending on your family circumstances, if you have a particularly challenging set of circumstances. So, for example, if you have a child with additional needs or you have children and you're caring for an elderly relative, you pretty much have to guarantee that you're going to get the flexibility that you need because otherwise your only option then will be to leave work.

18:41So from a societal perspective, we think that's terrible in terms of progression because one of the best ways of increasing salaries is actually by moving from one organization to another and taking on more responsibility. But of course, it's also a problem in terms of productivity, because yes, working mothers who work part time are the most productive, as PwC says. But if you're not then given the opportunity to move, that can be a real challenge. So again, working families, we work with employer services. We work with employers, they become our employer members. We really encourage them to advertise their flexible policies.

19:25And then we have something that we're doing at the moment, which is called family friendly workplace certification, where one of the things that we know is parents can't guarantee what they're going to get at a new place. whereas with working families employer members and family-friendly certified workplaces it's actually easy to find out what are your policies what do you offer so that parents can go there one of our ex-employer members is xeric and they a couple of years ago decided that they were going to advertise every single one of their jobs as flexible part-time job share they added that on to the end of the job title.

20:11And what they found, I mean, the fantastic stats about increasing the number of senior women being employed, increasing the engagement of people working part time, increase in the quality of applications, and increase in the number of applications across the board from both men and women. So obviously, it was hugely attractive to men as well as women that this option of flexible was available. And that is so often what people want is they want to know that if their life circumstances change, they can change within their work to do that. And so what advice would you give to someone who's listening to this and that they're in a role and, you know, their organization doesn't feel very family friendly?

20:57Would you suggest that they go and try and advocate for that with their line manager? Would you suggest that they go on your website, look at those organisations that are family friendly, look for jobs there. What is the best thing to do if you're that person who's stuck in that organisation that is just not, is not seeing you or supporting you properly? So much of it depends on personal choice. Are you an extrovert? Are you an introvert? Are you socially confident? Because that will determine the kinds of conversations that you can have internally within your workplace. The other and probably the most important consideration is can you afford to leave?

21:37Because this really determines that power relationship between you and your employer. If you are in a position where you're in a two-parent household and you do have some slack in your budget, if not long-term, then certainly short-term, then absolutely one of the things that is open to you is the opportunity to leave and move to another role within another organization and hopefully having done all of the work that you can to establish if that organization is going to be family friendly. But within really good quality employers, there are a number of options that are open to you. So one of the things would be your line manager.

22:19Quite often, really good quality organizations will have really good employee resource groups, affinity groups, family networks, whatever they happen to be. And that can be a really fantastic way of understanding what is happening on the ground across your organization, and whether or not your line manager is supporting you to have the flexibility that you need in the way that perhaps other people in the organization are. So, I mean, there are some amazing employers who really live and breathe flexible working and who are so clear about, for example, supporting mothers who are breastfeeding on their return to work, having a quiet, safe space, having fridges that you can put express milk into.

23:04All of those kinds of things are possible, obviously at a cost, but those are various routes that you can take is that look at the policies, understand what the policies of the organization are, look to see what other people in the organization who are in a similar circumstance to you are experiencing and or people at the same level in different departments. So there are all of those ways of trying to understand what's possible within the world of work within your employer and what's not possible. And then, as I say, it really is a kind of financial decision of if I'm going to move, I'm going to take that leap and that risk of moving.

23:47If it doesn't work, am I going to be okay? If it does work, absolutely fantastic.

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25:15And what are the legal rights around flexibility? Because there's lots of press at the moment around law changes, but then equally I see, you know, lots of big organisations saying everyone back to the office, you know, five days a week. What are someone's legal rights and how do you go about making that request? I know you've got templates and everything on your website, but what are your legal rights for flexibility currently? So currently, and this changed last year, and we're very proud that it changed last year because we were heavily involved in getting this through. So you now have the right to request.

25:55That's the really important bit. You have the right to request flexible working from day one of employment. Your employer has the right to refuse it within certain categories of giving reasons why. But the law has also changed. So the guidance is around employers actually giving you a reasonable reason and thinking about different options. But of course, I hasten to say it is still the right to request. So do, as you said, Zoe, our website. I am not an employment solicitor, as the people that work with me know all too well. but on our website we have exactly what you can do how to do it template letters and of course we have our our helpline for people who are really experiencing great difficulty and one of the things of course is that you can point out to your employer that as a woman you do have a protective characteristic and so there are some particularly as a parent there are some there are things that you might be able to point out to your employer, we would always say, have that human-to-human conversation, give yourself as much room as possible, because what you don't want to do is have a breakdown in a relationship at work, because obviously that's not going to help you, and that's not going to help your relationship with your line manager, and ultimately, you know, your future at that organization.

27:22So you have the right to request. the challenge at the moment is having all of us having been sent home you know where we were all in the same storm but definitely in different boats one of the challenges is that a lot of and you know this is my characterization me jane not as the chief exec of working families is that when you look at the senior leaders in many organizations they can only manage and lead in the way in which they were managed and led. So there is a sense that coming back to the office just because is a good thing. We would say that's actually not the case. You have to be very intentional about why is it that you want people to come back to the office?

28:12What is it that you're expecting them to do? Because if you're only coming into the office to sit on your screen and do Zoom calls all day, why are you doing that? So there are those conversations still to be had with employers. We are hearing, I mean, you know, there's lots of press about it, but we are also hearing that certainly it's not everybody and there will be some roles where it is not unreasonable for your employer to say that part of the role that you do does need to be in a place with people on a particular day. So there also is that sense of this is also an employment contract. So when you are asking your employer for flexibility, there is an expectation and not an unreasonable one that you will also be flexible.

29:06There's the right to request, that's your legal right. The employer has the right to refuse, but the best employers will have that conversation with you. And we're certainly finding on our helpline that the vast majority of the people that contact us, more than 80%, actually get the change that they want and need. So that is, I mean, the stats from our employee free legal advice line, the team are amazing. And they are so good at what they do and really helpful in helping people understand exactly what their rights are, what they're not, and the ways in which they can approach getting what they need.

29:42That's such a powerful stat. So as you were talking about, I was thinking about there's something about the courage to ask, which I think we were talking about before about, you know, almost feeling apologetic and kind of grateful to be there in the first place. But what I'm hearing is those people that have the courage to ask, that engage with, you know, some sort of support, whether it's, you know, your helpline or other support, get an 80 % success rate. I think that's really powerful for people to hear because you can feel so powerless. Oh, I mean, absolutely. If you're in a workplace which is unsupportive, if you have a line manager that you don't have a great relationship with, if you have colleagues that you don't have great relationships with, I mean, it's a miserable position to be in.