World leading divorce coach: "Divorce can be the making of you." With Sara Davison

0:07Welcome to Motherkind. It is me, your host Zoe. We are proudly sponsored by Wild Nutrition. and this is the show that's going to give you all the tools, expertise and support you need for your life as a modern mother. My expert this week is Sarah Davidson. She is the world's leading breakup and divorce coach. We are so lucky to have her on the podcast. This week's episode is an incredibly powerful one. It's about relationships and specifically when relationships end and how to get through that as a mother, how to support your children through it and how to start to really live again. So even if you're not in that situation, this episode is going to help you so much to support a friend who is, I think we all know someone who is going through or has been through a breakup or divorce.

0:56So please do share this episode with a friend who might need it. I hope it's really supportive. Here it is. I have something very exciting to tell you this week and that is that we have a new headline sponsor on the show, the incredible Wild Nutrition. So I'll be working with them all year on the podcast and beyond and I'm so excited for you to get to know this brand and their products better. I first discovered Wild Nutrition 10 years ago which actually blows my mind when I was pregnant with my eldest and I researched about which were the best pregnancy supplements and every single person that I asked said Wild Nutrition and I have loved them and continued enjoying their wider range ever since.

1:40Why? Because unlike 95 % of the supplement market, which is synthetically derived, their supplements are food grown, which means your body recognises it like food and absorbs and retrains the nutrients way better. They're also founded by one of the UK's leading nutritional therapists and powered by an all women nutritional therapist team who bring a collective 90 years experience wild nutrition recognizes that matrescence is one of the most nutritionally and emotionally demanding chapters of your life and we've been there it takes a village and you can turn to them as part of yours and to support you they're offering mother kind listeners 50 off incredible for three months when you visit wildnutrition.com forward slash motherkind.

2:29That is wildnutrition.com forward slash motherkind. T's and C's apply. I'd like to take this moment to thank our headline sponsor, Wild Nutrition, who are offering Mother Kind listeners 50 % off for the first three months. When I was pregnant with my first 10 years ago, I asked a few nutritionist friends, what's the best pregnancy supplement? And they all said the same thing, Wild Nutrition. So I listened and these incredible supplements have kept me feeling great through two pregnancies, starting this podcast, writing a book, a relocation and everything in between for the last decade. So it's magical to me that I now get to tell you about this incredible woman founded brand every week.

3:10So the food grown pregnancy and new mother multi is expertly formulated to support you from conception right through to postpartum and beyond. And food grown magnesium is backed by a gold standard scientific study that shows it has the potential to help you sleep an extra 42 minutes a night and increase sleep quality by 32%. Yes, please. I know how much of a difference Wild Nutrition has made in my motherhood journey and we want you to experience it too. That's why they're giving MotherKind listeners an exclusive 50 % off for three months and a free personal consultation with a nutritional therapist.

3:47Just go to wildnutrition.com forward slash motherkind to get started. That's wildnutrition.com forward slash motherkind. So you can feel a difference yourselves. Start 2026 rooted in wellness. T's and C's apply. So I'm so excited to chat. I think a good place to start would be your story. How did you get to be sat here today as an absolute leading expert in divorce coaching? Like it's not really what you dream of when you're at school, is it? It's not on the careers board. Do you want to be a divorce coach. But yeah, I mean, life has led me to this. And I think when you find what you're really driven and passionate to do, I think it just made a lot of sense for me.

4:27I was married. I thought happily. I mean, hindsight's a wonderful thing, isn't it? Looking back, I can see there were definitely some warning signs. But for me, when I got catapulted out of my marriage, it was literally overnight. I found out that not only did my husband not love me anymore. He didn't want to be married to me anymore, but he was madly in love with somebody else. Now that's hard to take. And for anyone who's been through that, they'll know. But on top of that, she was 12 years younger than me. That never helps. She's stunningly beautiful. Again, that really doesn't help. I know.

5:04And I found out within a couple of weeks, she was pregnant. So my husband and I had a business together. We had nearly 200 staff. We had our son, who was only one at the time. And so overnight, my entire world changed. Literally, it was not recognizable. The future I had planned, the working together, my entire life on so many levels was sort of obviously entwined with his. So I became a single parent. I then lost my place in the company. for a while I had to go into work and she was made a director of our company as well which obviously is hard to work in that environment and we had an office in London an office in Sydney and the turning point for me from the ugly crying on the bathroom floor and the phoning my mum at 2am was I'd gone out to our Sydney office and if anyone's listening who's who's been cheated on what happens well what happened in my case a lot of people when they found out that I knew then were relieved and wanted to support me, but would come and tell me their experience of how they found out before I knew that my husband was cheating on me.

6:15And whilst I know they were well-meaning and they were trying to support me, it actually was like a dagger through the heart every time you heard a different story. So I'd taken myself out of the office and I'd gone for a walk down Balmoral Beach, which is a really beautiful place in Australia. It's like white sand, turquoise sea. And I was sat on the beach crying my eyes out. And I just had one of those pivotal moments where I was like, what am I doing? Like this has got to stop. I'm in so much pain and I can't see a way through that having been a coach at that point for 15 years, I was like, there must be a way through here.

6:51There must be. So I'm going to find it and I'm going to turn this pain into my superpower and I'm going to find a way through for me and my son, test out different coaching techniques that I've learned, see how I can apply it to this sector because there really wasn't any help apart from therapy, which I tried. And whilst it was useful for some things, actually understanding what do I do when I'm face to face with the pregnant girlfriend of my husband, that wasn't anywhere to sort of know how to cope with. So I went away and created all the tools And that's the toolkit that I now share with people.

7:26And my motto, screw you, watch this, was born on that beach that day. And I never really look back. I've gone and created a global business helping people with the tools from that one moment, really, that changed everything for me. It's amazing. But just to dive into those early weeks, months, because I think a lot of people listening might not have had that experience themselves, but they've probably supported someone through that experience. What was that like having to continue on with parenting? And how did you quite quickly figure out that co-parenting setup? Because that's something that I think it feels confusing to me.

8:05How would you do that? I think I mean obviously you're a massive overwhelm I didn't see it coming there's so many different types of breakups some people it fizzles out over time and you kind of have a bit of preparation with me it was literally overnight that I discovered that it wasn't going to be my future it's a really good question my son was one so he couldn't sort anything out for himself without me being there which actually was a really good thing because I had to get up I had to show up lying in bed all day is there no with a pot of ice cream crying you've got you've got to get up exactly exactly so in some ways it was great that I you know he was with me all the time I had to step up as a mum and do those things and it gave me a real focus and a real purpose and a reason for getting through it so again it's hard because you want to fall apart and you are falling apart I think the important thing is having those that care and can support you around you in that time That breakup support team in the initial days are a bit of a lifeline.

9:05I was lucky that my parents, I was very close to them. Some of my friends literally turned up overnight and moved in for a few weeks just to help me. And obviously, I was still working and having to go to work. So I did have support, childcare support. So I was in a situation where, you know, I had to keep going. But it is incredibly difficult. And you're not your best self. quite pathetically not your best self in any shape way or form so I think it's quite a humbling experience um and it you really have to dig deep unfortunately you can't avoid the pain because that is part of the healing process and I think the more you try to what I call stuff your emotions you know coping mechanisms like red wine can help and you know different things to get you through But ultimately, you have to go through that grieving process because it is part of the healing process.

9:59Not a lot of people know that divorce is known as the second most traumatic life experience we go through after death of a loved one. So you follow that same grief cycle, that sort of stages of grief. It's like a death, isn't it? Yeah. In many ways. It's the death of what you thought it was going to be. It's the death of, you know, that person being in your life in that way. Yeah, absolutely. It's a huge loss. And then you still have to see them. So in some ways, if they've moved on with someone else, you've still got that pain of seeing that every day, which is really difficult. You know, if you can completely separate and you're not living in each other's pockets, obviously, then the healing process can speed up a little bit.

10:38But if like me, you're having to go to work and you're having to show up and, you know, they moved into the penthouse above in the same development that me and my son were living as well. So we were literally in each other's space a lot. So it was a tough time. But I think looking back now, that time in my life was actually the greatest gift for me because it gave me something that gave me a real purpose and a drive in life. And I think that we all go through things in life. We have a decision. It either breaks us or it's time to step up and take our power back. And obviously that relationship wasn't right.

11:16Obviously it wasn't the best thing for me or my son. And the turning it into something that I can learn from, that my son has learned from, that you navigate with dignity, I think has been really empowering. So how old's your son now? He's 16 now. Yeah. How do you talk to him about what happened? I mean, again, if you're breaking up and your child's one like mine was, this is all they know. So, yes, it is sad. Obviously, if you can have two parents in a healthy, loving relationship, that is ideal. And that's what we all want and strive for, I guess. But if it doesn't work out that way for you, there are advantages to that of breaking up when they're very young.

11:55Because my son's never known us living together. He's never known us in the same house together. He has no memory of that because he was only one when we broke up. So in some ways, that's just normal for him. And, you know, as children get older, they have more attachments that they have more memories. Now, there's definitely ways that you can make it easier for children as you go through that. absolutely I'm a very strong believer that divorce doesn't have to damage children yeah it can but it doesn't have to and I think as long as one of you is healthy as in not toxic and is educated about how to help your child through then actually it can be a valuable life lesson I think that's such an important point that you say because as you were describing some of those moves like she's pregnant they move in above you she's made a director and you have to carry on how did you not let that become toxic and have like revenge fantasies and because as you say it's so important for the children whatever age they are to have one healthy regulated mature yeah but god that's a stretch right when you've had that experience how did you get there well I was a coach so I knew that what was going on around me was chaotic I realized with hindsight like that my relationship was incredibly toxic and I hadn't realized that when I was in it and that's really normal by the way I thought I was going crazy but actually what I've discovered and that's kind of my specialist area helping people fast track from toxic relationships we minimize things that aren't okay aren't healthy or toxic behaviors because of the situation we're in we have to stay there or we feel we do so we minimize it and normalize it so that we can you know stay as a family unit so that we don't have to face huge change in our life for some people it's difficult to get out because obviously finances will yeah especially for a lot of mothers listening that will be the situation yeah and it is really difficult especially at the moment cost of living crisis has meant that you know it's very hard to separate two lives and then have two homes especially if you need you know two or three bedrooms for children and you know the cost is just ridiculous so there are a lot of people right now I see them on our online support groups that are joining because they just can't get out and they're trying to manage how they're coping.

14:10What were some of those toxic behaviours that now looking back you can see were toxic? Yeah I mean spotting the signs of a toxic relationship that is a really important skill set especially if you're highly empathetic because you can't get into a toxic relationship if you're not empathetic. You know, we all have friends, and I've got a great friend, Carla, who I love to bits, but she doesn't tolerate any of that. She's just like, if someone doesn't treat me right, then I'm out the door. Whereas for me, I was very much, well, I might be able to help, or maybe they're having a bad day, or I can fix that.

14:44Maybe if we work together, I can help. And, you know, I'm a people pleaser, and that was something that was important to me. And as a coach as well, I think that's sort of part of our nature. So again, you have to be highly empathetic, which means that you're open to repeating the same pattern. So the signs to look out for are things like gaslighting, confusing behaviour, belittling you, isolating you from friends and family, lying. But this isn't how it shows up on day one. Yeah, because as you say all that, it's like, well, I'd be out the door. But that's not how it goes, is it? It's a chip, chip, chip away.

15:17And, you know, love bombing is part of it. So at the start... Oh, at the beginning, it's amazing. At the beginning, it's the best thing ever. you think this is what disney was all about i've got my own you know happy ending yeah it's the prince has come in and i'm like happy but this yes that is if it's too good to be true sometimes it is because they will be interviewing you to get to know you first of all to find out what your ideal partner is and then they will kind of morph into that person and that's the love bombing process because they're showing you a lot of attention they're asking you a lot of questions and if anyone's been on any dates recently you'll know that's quite a rare thing so you're thinking oh wow I found the person that's going to ask me all those lovely questions um but you know I'm not saying that everyone that asks questions is toxic but I'm saying the good guys and good girls do exist exactly yeah um but again that's very often part because they want to understand what you want so they can become that person and create the perception that you will fall in love with.

16:18But that perception is just that it's not a reality. So what happens is we fall in love with the perception of this perfect partner that's walked into our lives. And we hook into that. And then we strap on those, those rose tinted glasses so tightly. And even if our friends are going, yeah, maybe I'm not sure you're like, no, no, no, this is perfect. And then we get into that relationship. And then the mask starts to slip and the behavior changes. But because we fell in love with that perception we believe that's what they're really like and they can get back there so the cycle of abuse is often starting with this sort of amazing you know and even further into the relationship things can be going really well but then an incident happens where maybe there's some like an argument or something abusive happens and then you recoil and you think okay i can't deal with this i'm going to pull away as you pull away they then do what the is called hoovering where they want your attention.

17:15They want that back from you. So then they start being nice or they apologize or they say, I don't know what's wrong with you. That wasn't me. That was you. And you're like, oh, okay. Cause you're empathetic. You're like, yeah, it could be me. Could be me. Maybe it was me. And so the whole thing is designed to then bring you back in and then it gets back to normal. And you're thinking, I don't want to rock the boat by saying, what the hell was that? So you don't address it. You're just grateful to be back on an even keel and that boundary has been eroded what was acceptable behavior is now been eroded because you haven't confronted it so the new norm is a bit lower and it's it's not as as nice and so then you're setting the president for the next time so the cycle goes on the mask slips but we've always live in the hope that they'll show back up as that person and they will do to suck you back in again so it's a very difficult situation to get out of quite often when we're in it we don't really notice.

18:09It's only towards the end or when you're out that people go, oh, wow, that wasn't okay. So if someone's listening and they relate to that, or maybe they've got a friend or, you know, I think most people have known a relationship that looks like that either on the inside or the outside. How do you start to think about getting out of that? I mean, you have to be careful that you're safe. That's the first thing. And if you don't think you're safe or in imminent danger obviously you have to call the emergency services that's that's the first thing we do in the uk have a lot of domestic abuse charities that are amazing so we're probably leading um in front of most countries actually even america we've got some really great support so you can always contact your local domestic abuse charity they will believe you and they will listen that's what they're there for and they will do a risk assessment just to see so if you're worried about something.

19:01But if you don't think you're in danger, but you are just not sure what to do, then getting educated about what abuse is, is actually really important because clarity gives you power. And a lot of the time I have a training school, I train people to become breakup and divorce coaches so they can go out and help people. Most of them are survivors. And what they say to me is that learning what abuse is, not the hysterical that you might find on the internet but the factual information so that you can really say is this or isn't it and what can I do to cope again it can be difficult to assert boundaries suddenly with someone that's being toxic towards you can put you in great danger so it's really just about getting educated then working with someone who understands either a domestic abuse charity or a specialist coach to help work out your plan to get out it's not going to be one size fits all it's going to depend on what you can do, you know, and where you could go and making those safe decisions.

19:58And so difficult when children are involved as well, isn't it? Yeah, it is. But, you know, again, I have so many parents that say to me, I feel like I've already screwed up with the choice of the other partner for my child. But one, you wouldn't have them. So we've got to go with what we've got. And two, actually, I think this is really interesting. And I don't know what you think about this. I'll be interested on your take but sometimes two healthy parents in a totally loving scenario maybe don't prepare you the best for the outside world because in reality if some children some research to show that if children have had some hardship and i don't mean extreme abuse or extreme poverty but some challenges as they grow up they don't make the same mistakes that say i might have done choosing a partner because they're much more aware to it so they learn those lessons early on and whilst we don't want our children to have to learn any tough lessons we want to wrap them up in bubble wrap you know i i've seen with my work that actually learning some of the you know how how to spot inappropriate or unacceptable behavior at a young age can actually make children lot stronger and make better decisions in the future this episode is sponsored by joma jewelry the destination for thoughtful gifting when your little ones ask what you'd love for mother's day or perhaps you've got a mother in your life you want to celebrate then I need to tell you about Joma jewellery.

21:20Their jewellery is beautifully designed with heartfelt sentiment making it the perfect gift for any occasion however big or small. The Mother's Day collection features the best-selling are little bracelets that can be personalised with children's initials or birthstones making it a perfect gift. All gifts come with a free personalised gift bag so you don't need to worry about wrapping it is ready to gift. Hurrah another thing off the list. They also have a personalised photo card to add to your gift to make it even more special and unique. Joma believe that beautiful gifts shouldn't cost the earth so the jewellery is under just£20.

21:54Joma Jewellery offering listeners of Motherkind an exclusive 15 % off with code MUM15 that's M-U-M-1-5. So just head to jomagewellery.com to get your perfect gift in time for Mother's Day using the code MUM15. Joma Jewellery the destination for thoughtful gifting. I think you're right. I think it's about how you as a, let's just call you the healthy parent, are able to support through that, isn't it? And of course, in order to do that, you probably need a lot of support. And I loved when you called it, what did you call it? Your divorce support. You called it something. I really liked it. Breakup support team.

22:38Breakup support team. That's it. That is critical, actually, for any breakup, whether it's amicable or not. And I think there's like five people that you should definitely consider having in your support team. And you have to carefully choose these people. So I always think that the things that worry you the most are the issues we need to address. So, for example, it might be money. So you need somebody who is good with budgeting on your team. It doesn't have to be a very expensive accountant. It could be a friend who's great with spreadsheets, you know, who can look at your monthly outgoings and say, look, this is what you need and just give you a bit of clarity.

23:12So someone who can help you with the money side. If you need legal advice, finding someone that can give that to you. So you've got these people on speed dial, because then if you're worrying about something, you know, actually, I can get that question answered. I have those people on my team. I also think that an exercise body is really important because at the time when you just want to be under the duvet eating crisps, which was my go to. I think, you know, it's important because we're making life changing decisions. This is the thing. At a time when your emotions are all over the place, where am I going to live?

23:46How much time will I have for the children? What am I going to do? Am I going to have to go out and find an income stream? All those big life-changing decisions. We need to be in the best state of mind, which is pretty much impossible unless we're looking after ourselves. So that self-care element has to come in. Even when you're looking after young kids, we have to make time. Even if it's just getting outside with the kids, um you know doing a brisk walk around the block it doesn't have to be hitting the gym or like yoga classes every morning but something that gets you moving changes your state gets you out of the house is going to be really important too we also need good friends and maybe that's a family member or a friend the challenge with this is i've had people who've got the best meaning friends who are so angry with their ex yes so betrayed themselves they almost rile back them up yeah I had one client on her first session, she came to my house and she popped open the boot of her car and in there were all these bin bags.

24:46And her best friend had been around the night before. They'd had a couple of bottles of wine and they'd literally gone to his wardrobe. And they were like camel coat coats and shoes that they chopped up and put into bits in these bin bags. And she was like, oh, it felt so good. It's like there's going to be repercussions. And I just think, you know, there's other ways of dealing with it. So having a good friend who's not emotionally involved and can give you constructive advice is the friend for this list. You can still have the other friends, but having that friend, you can just say, is this OK?

25:18Am I doing the right thing? That's important, I think. And then having that support for emotional support, whether that's a specialist coach or a therapist or somebody that you can talk to who's outside of your set, who specializes so they can really help you with useful tools. I think sometimes we can get stuck in talking about how bad things are. And, you know, the way that we work with people is to really focus on, OK, this is tough, but let's give you some empowering tools so you can take your power back. And it's about that moment on the beach where it's like it's time to step up. I've got a decision.

25:50This is either going to ruin the rest of my life or I've got an opportunity to say, you know what? I don't know what it holds the next chapter, but I'm going to step up, put my head above the parapet and I'm going to go for it because I don't want the grey cloud scenario. I want to let some sunshine in and I want to move towards that. Yeah, exactly. And even just as you're saying that I'm feeling like my energy, right? It's so important to do that. I want to ask about co-parenting and childcare, because I think it must be so difficult if you've, you know, however it's happened, however that breakup's happened, you've got to then advocate for what you want, which might be a new muscle, particularly if you've been in a toxic relationship and you've let those boundaries slip over years.

26:30suddenly you've got to start setting those boundaries right and saying no this is what I want with the child care this and advocate for yourself yeah how does someone start to do that how do you work out what is best for the children and then communicate that particularly if you've you know if it's toxic or you don't trust your partner this is a really difficult thing because if it's a healthy relationship and what I mean by that there's going to be some compromise you want to work towards a fair settlement. You want to work around not upsetting the other person. So for example, you know, co-parenting then is a lot easier if you can say, I'm struggling tonight.

27:06Can we have a FaceTime with the kids? Is that okay? And they're like, yeah, sure. Okay. Like it's my time, but okay. You know, it's kind of, you'll work with each other. You don't want to cause pain. You just want to make it as easy. And you've both got the kids' best interests at heart. That's where co-parenting can be incredible. And you can really work as a team. That means you can talk about bedtimes you can agree on the amount of time that they're on their iPads or screen time yeah those discussions are easy you both you know I don't completely agree but you'll come to some agreement at the end almost like when you're in the marriage yeah you don't always completely agree but you figure it out and you move on exactly and if maybe you've got something that's come up and you can't do that Saturday would they help and yeah sure I can help or I'll find a way or get my mum to help you know it's that kind of environment that kids really thrive in because they can see that love and that is still there between the parents it's not the same kind of love but the love is still there and the children's interests are put first so that's what the ideal co-parenting scenario is if you're coming out of a toxic relationship you cannot co-parent it's just not possible because the whole sort of definition of a toxic relationship and you know breaking up or divorcing that that person is that they're not compromise doesn't come into it it's all about causing maximum pain and suffering and even total annihilation.

28:24And I think one of the biggest misunderstood issues we have is that post-separation abuse can be a lot worse than even when you're in the relationship. And the reason being, instead of it being across everything 24-7, all that gaslighting, the lies, the confusing behaviour, the being difficult and making things very difficult for you. All that is channeled through finances and children. So not sending in letters when they're supposed to, not replying, not turning up to pick the kids up. If you tell them what you want, they're going to do the opposite. Okay. That's interesting. So don't do that.

29:02So you can't, because if you say, look, you know, I've got them into really good routine and they're going to bed by 7.30. If you could follow that, they're going to go, oh, great. this is a great way to use this to hurt this person, which is my overriding goal. So they're not going to do it. So it's a really difficult concept. And I totally am there because having lived this myself, I have a lot of understanding of how difficult it is. So we have to focus on what we can control. We cannot control the other person. And if we start telling them our hopes and aspirations and goals for this, you're giving away your power.

29:38So what we have to do is focus on what we can control and what we can control is what happens in our own home so setting the values so maybe it's no shouting no bullying no lying which okay it's pretty basic i suppose for most people but in the other house by contrast they'll be seeing that so we're not bad mouthing we're just setting the values within our own home people talk about parallel parenting i was going to ask about that yeah again parallel parenting is is meant for it what it means is you agree on bigger picture. So you don't worry about the screen time and the bedtime because that's out of your control.

30:12But just agree on the big things like what school are they going to go to? What vaccinations do you want them to have? What are they doing for GCSE? Now, I love the idea, but if you can't agree on bedtime, how the hell are you going to agree on what school you want to go to? And again, the same thing applies. If you say, I really like this school. Okay, they're likely to like the other one. Okay. Exactly. So it is an incredibly difficult minefield. I just feel really emotional thinking about I'm just going to make it gendered. The mother going through that. I just cannot imagine how hard that must be.

30:49Yeah. I mean, to be honest, it is the hardest part of what I went through was not seeing my son. When, you know, no one goes into being a parent with, you know, thinking I want to see them once every other week. or whatever the agreement is. You don't. You want to put your child to bed every night and you want to be there when they wake up and you want to be there if they need you, whenever they need you, not just if it's your week or your day with them. That was the hardest thing. And that is what I see with all our clients, the hardest thing. And one of the biggest issues that comes up on the support groups because getting used to what happens when your partner turns up, maybe with their new partner, maybe with a new life, maybe it was their decision to go.