You can’t change them - but you can change yourself with Cat Sims

0:07Welcome to Motherkind. We are proudly sponsored by Wild Nutrition Women Supplements. I am your host Zoe Blaski and this is the show that is going to grab you by your hand and be your guide for the wild ride that is modern motherhood. Welcome, I am so happy you are here. This week we are talking about the mental load. You know, the thousands of things we have to remember to do and to plan to keep our families running. It's waking bolt upright at 3am because you forgot it's come as this random character day at nursery or you forgot to make that doctor's appointment. the mental load is invisible it's unfair with mothers bearing the majority of it and it is exhausting this week's guest Kat Sims nearly got divorced because of the mental load and now she's written a book on it called the mental load diaries how I learned to juggle life love and the never ending to-do list this is the episode I wish I'd had when I too was drowning in the resentment and overwhelm of the mental load.

1:13Keep listening to learn why the mental load can break mothers and marriages, why communication is the key and how to do it right, and what to do if you have got a partner who just will not get on board. This episode might just save your sanity. And quick one, please make sure you subscribe. Remembering to find each episode is not something you want to add to your mental load. So subscribing helps you because the new episode will just be there waiting for you and it helps me because more subscribers means a bigger show, bigger guests and more impact. Here is the episode. I hope you love it.

1:53I'd like to take this moment to thank our headline sponsor, Wild Nutrition, who are offering Mother Kind listeners 50 % off for the first three months. When I was pregnant with my first 10 years ago, I asked a few nutritionist friends, what's the best pregnancy supplement? And they all said the same thing, wild nutrition. So I listened and these incredible supplements have kept me feeling great through two pregnancies, starting this podcast, writing a book, a relocation and everything in between for the last decade. So it's magical to me that I now get to tell you about this incredible woman founded brand every week.

2:30So the Food Grown Pregnancy and New Mother Multi is expertly formulated to support you from conception right through to postpartum and beyond. And Foon-Groed Magnesium is backed by a gold standard scientific study that shows it has the potential to help you sleep an extra 42 minutes a night and increase sleep quality by 32%. Yes, please. I know how much of a difference Wild Nutrition has made in my motherhood journey, and we want you to experience it too. That's why they're giving Mother Kind listeners an exclusive 50 % off for three months and a free personal consultation with a nutritional therapist.

3:06Just go to wildnutrition.com forward slash motherkind to get started. That's wildnutrition.com forward slash motherkind so you can feel a difference yourselves. Start 2026 rooted in wellness. T's and C's apply.

3:21Kat, I'm so excited to chat about the mental load and so much more, which I'm sure we'll dive into. Yeah, thank you for having me. Thinking and talking about the mental load for a couple of years now, what are the biggest challenges that you see with it and that you hear we're all grappling with? I think the biggest problem is that, and this is what I learned from my experience, is that I was always focused very much on what Jimmy was doing wrong or what he wasn't doing at all. And as much as those feelings were really valid, those resentments were real, I wasn't handling it properly. I hadn't figured out how to solve it.

3:53I was just waiting for him to change. And actually what I realised is that I can't change anybody else. I can make my wants and needs clear, but the only person, only thing I can change is myself. And so I started to think, how can I change my behaviour in this pretty toxic dynamic to try and make it better? And one of the things that I learned in recovery actually was a phrase that said, do I want to be right or happy? Obviously, I'd like to be both. Apparently, that's not always possible. And so I thought, you know what, I want to be happy. So I made a decision to do a few things. Firstly, I made a decision to start communicating properly.

4:31Like, I think a lot of women are focused on all of the things that their husband has made them feel. And like they're angry and they're resentful. But I was like, why am I angry and resentful? Because he doesn't seem to know what I want and he's not doing it. it turns out telepathy is not a viable form of communication. And the other thing is, it's not a proof of love. You know, when people are like, if he loved me, he'd know. No, it's bollocks. He doesn't know. That's not fair. It's such an unreasonable expectation. It's all part of this rom-com nonsense that we've been sold by Hollywood. It's nonsense.

5:02So I was like, okay, so I'll have to start actually being clear about what I want and need, but also how it makes me feel. And our therapist gave us this great phrase. She just said, whenever you feel a bit of a resentment, even the smallest resentment, just say, I don't feel very kept in mind. And it was such a cracking term because it wasn't accusatory. It wasn't, you've done this. It was, I don't feel very kept in mind. And we knew exactly what that meant. So I had to change my communication. And I realized that I was also in the words of Taylor Swift, part of the problem. I'm the problem. It's me.

5:34I wasn't perfect. Like as annoying as his bed making skills were, or his aiming was, or his lack of knowledge about what size shoes our kids wore, I was pretty hard to live with as well. That constant requirement for perfection. Like Jimmy's like, I've made the bed. I'm like, well, you haven't really, have you? Like, you've not made it like I make it. He's like, yeah, but I'm just because I made like a hotel. And so I had to get on board with the fact that actually done is done. You know, it's not the end of the world. And it isn't a way of him going, I'm going to make this bed in a really crappy way just to piss her off.

6:08It wasn't that. It was him going, I'm going to make the bed because I know that that's a good thing to do. That'll make her happy. So it's choosing to see the goodness in something and also recognising that men aren't doing this. I don't think men are doing it. Some of them might be. But generally, if you've married a good man and you're like, I love you, but I also hate everything about living with you, chances are he's just not aware not because he's stupid but because women have been since the moment they splashed down earthside they have been groomed to understand the mental load and to take it on because we saw our mums do it and they looked at what their dads were doing and our generation had a very you know our parents generation were very strictly more or less generally down those traditional gender roles so we're not going to get it perfect as you know this generation but I do think that we're cycle breakers.

7:00And I think that if we give each other, if we give our partner who we love a little bit of grace and recognise that, yeah, it is a bit embarrassing that they don't know how to do this, but actually let's make a list, let's support them, let's communicate clearly so that hopefully our kids don't have to make a list. Yeah. So I suppose the answer to your question is I had to change my perspective of where the problem was. You describe in the opening of the book just this amazing scene oh yeah before you'd learn all this and you sit jimmy down yeah and you say i want a divorce what i said was so we're going to separate and he was like i'm sorry what and i had been like if for weeks going this is the only possible option like i'm miserable every time he walks in a room i want to stamp it i want to you know punch him in the face like everything annoys me gave me the ick i was like just get out of my life and so when i was like so we're going to separate.

7:54I genuinely thought he was like, yeah, I think it's probably the right thing. And he went, I'm sorry, what? And he was completely blindsided. And in that moment, I was like, okay, something's really wrong that I feel a certain way. And he is completely unaware of that. Like I have to accept at some point there's a communication issue here. And so we went through that horrible conversation, which inadvertently, I suppose, opened up space for us to have a really honest conversation that wasn't fighting and screaming and, and door slamming. And I suppose that bottom really helped us get back out.

8:31And he was like, I just want to do, can you promise me you'll do couples therapy one more time? And I was like, I don't want to, like I was done in my head. I was done, but I thought to myself, you know what, if whatever happens, I want to be able to look at my kids and go, we did everything we could. And so I thought if I refused to go back to couples therapy that's on me so we went back and I think that because we were so broke we'd like reached that gift we'd got the gift of desperation and I think that we we were able to sort of hear each other for the first time and and I was able to accept that perhaps I wasn't as perfect as I thought I was damn it and it was so annoying still difficult for me to you know honestly I have to like gird my loins to to apologize and a question you get asked a lot is how do I get my husband to go to therapy?

9:23I mean, I was really lucky. My husband was always very into therapy. And he was the one that was like, let's just do it one more time. You know, you can't make anybody do anything at the end of the day. But what I would say is say to him, I want to be able to say to our kids, we both did everything we could. You know, otherwise, what are we going to tell them? But the other thing is, if you can't get your partner to go to therapy, go to therapy yourself. Like do it yourself because I really believe in attraction, not promotion. And if you go to therapy and your partner starts seeing you behave differently, starts seeing you take responsibility or whatever it is, then he will be, if he's a good human, he'll be attracted to that.

10:04And I think that slowly but surely you might find him come around, but it isn't easy. And at the end of the day, you just have to accept that you can only tell him what you want and need. And if he doesn't do it, that's on him. but it was the best thing that we ever did and so what was different was that you were you were almost had nothing to lose well yeah and I was honest just I was honest I mean the first time we went in I was very much in active addiction and I mean I was the second time actually but Jimmy was very much like because he's very codependent he's like a really nice human but too nice like I'm an addict so I picked Cody because he puts my wants and needs ahead of his which suited me as an adult down to the ground.

10:43You're like the perfect parent. Perfect. Toxic as fuck, but perfect. And we went into the couple therapy the first time and he'd be like, yeah, I've got to take ownership for that. You know, I am. And I was like, see, see what I have to live with? I mean, you know. And the second time I got honest and I got vulnerable, which is a very scary thing for me to do. You know, I was hyper self-reliant. I'd always felt very isolated. Like I was on my own to figure out the world. So being vulnerable and admitting that you're struggling with something or that you did something wrong, especially when you've also got that rejection sensitivity dysphoria, like the idea that I've made a mistake, I have to admit that I've made a mistake is to me equal to nobody will love me anymore.

11:22And so it was very difficult for me. But like I say, that gift of desperation, I was like, this is it. You know, if I don't do something different now, we are going to get divorced. And I didn't want that. You know, all things equal. I wanted to stay married to him. You know, I just thought that he needed to change into what I wanted to be married to. And the reality was we needed to figure out something completely different between us. You talk about the start of your marriage and that first matrescence that you went through. I mean, it's almost comical the way that you look back and describe how clueless you were.

11:55Tell us about that time. And, you know, you talk about when you first met Jimmy as well. You know, you instantly started cleaning up his squalor of a bedroom. It was disgusting. I mean yeah I think again it comes down to this idea that we're sort of handed down this responsibility as women and I think socially women's value no matter how far we're allowed to go out the house no matter how much of a career we're allowed to have essentially our value is in being children makers and homemakers you know and and society values society values that yes right not yeah not us but we do take that on I think yeah you know unless we actively work against that that is what well if you walk into a messy house that's filthy i have never once thought bloody hell that man needs to it's so that that sort of misogynistic thinking is so ingrained so when it when i became a girlfriend i was like i'm gonna be the best girlfriend i can be and i'm gonna like clean stuff i mean to be fair i would never have slept in that room unless it was clean so there was that too i mean he was so dirty didn't see the red flags for the dirt i know i should have done i don't know what i was thinking why what have i even got to complain about i should have known.

13:00And so, yeah, I did. I did all of that and didn't really understand the resentment. You know, it was that martyrhood thing. It was like, I'm going to do it, but I don't want to do it. Why should I have to do it? But I'm going to do it. Was a part of you also trying to be like, look at me. Susie Homemaker. Yeah, of course it was. It's like, keep me around. I really like you. And it's really dark. You know, I really had to unlearn a lot of that stuff, but we do take that on. And then obviously that first year of having a baby. because he was away a lot tell us about what that was like you were on your own it was just fucking awful like i wish i could say it's really sad to say this but it was the worst year of my life that first year of being a mum and nothing to do with her like she could have made it so much worse but this kid obviously took one look at me and was like this bitch needs some help like i'm gonna sleep through from 10 weeks 10 weeks seven till seven and i'd go into play groups and lie i'd be like because everybody would be like i'm so tired i've been up like five times in a row I'd be like yeah me too I've had 12 solid hours god bless you for not being telling the truth because that would have ruined every other mother imagine but that aside I mean I had quite severe postnatal depression that you know I think was triggered by a pretty traumatic birth and a horrific breastfeeding experience Jimmy was home for a month which at the time was massive you know nobody else who had proper jobs their dads weren't around for a month so we're like this is great but then he went away for seven months six or seven months and he would come home every three four five weeks and it was so awful I mean none of my family lived nearby I was on my own I had this baby I had postnatal depression I'd get up in the morning I put her in the pram and I would just walk around the park over and over and 10 kilometers I don't think I've ever been skinnier and I was so unhappy and I think that's really where the addiction kicked in as well that kind of slipped from like I'm a party girl to yeah to this is not good but it was it was hard because there was no space really to talk about this is like 12 years ago nobody was going this is hard everybody was like isn't you never feel love like it I was like I just want to put her out by the bins like I'm done like this is horrendous and again it came down to that like if I'm not perfect if I'm not good at everything I'm not going to be lovable like nobody's going to keep me around.

15:13And so the fact that I found this thing, motherhood, that was supposed to be so natural, such a natural instinct, which I think is such a really negative narrative. I couldn't do it. It didn't matter how many books I read. I just couldn't get comfortable. I mean, she was fine. She was alive and she was thriving, but I couldn't get comfortable with it. And it was a really, really miserable year. But, you know, looking back on it now, I am really grateful that that happened because I think it, it showed me that it gave value to what, to the job that I was doing. I think I thought it was just going to be easy.

15:53And that year made me way more compassionate. It made me way more understanding of the judgment that we, I mean, that's why I'm called not so smug now, because when I was pregnant, I was like, they're going to have wooden toys and drink organic food. And I'm not going to give them cowpull, they're going to have Lloyd, your silver. And, you know, now I can't get cow pulling them quick enough. And then of course it happened. And my mum went, give her a dummy. I thought, I can't give her a dummy. And then on balance, I just figured it was better than throwing her out the window. You know, and it was things like that that just made me go, gosh, you know what?

16:27There's so much negativity surrounding new mums, especially, and babies. Even now, I think they're really susceptible to it. You know, I don't think it's gone. I think I can think it is because I'm so far away from it, but I don't think it is. You know, I think there are still new mums, no matter how hard we try that come under this scrutiny and feel this pressure. I don't think we should ever stop talking about that. And I think, you know, the reason that your work is so loved and your voice online is so loved is because of your honesty, because there will be someone listening to this now, pushing that buggy, feeling exactly how you felt and thinking, probably crying, right now thinking thank god i'm not alone i mean and there will be people going oh my god who is this woman she should never be allowed to have children like and i get that as well but it's i think we have to be really careful of kind of suggesting there's one way of parenting you know i think we have to accept that some people have different views on things and do things differently and their level of risk is more acceptable than others and you know that's okay Yeah, exactly.

17:33And I think, you know, for people like you and I who are had trauma in recovery, it for me that that matrescence those early years brought all of that up. Totally. To the surface. And that's not the case for everyone. For some people, they're like, I'm like, so what did what did it bring up? And everyone looks at me like some people look at me blank face and I'm like, wow, I can't imagine going through it and not having to do the amount of kind of self-development healing recovery work that people like you and I did. And I didn't think I did because, you know, I thought, well, I've not had any trauma.

18:05But the reality is there's so much, it's not always a capital T trauma. You know, for me, it was little things like my boarding school experience and being really, really homesick when I first got there. I could not believe that when I read that. You cried every single day. People hated me. From wake to sleep for six months and no one helped you. From September to February. That is a capital T trauma. I would leave classes to go to Lou and call my mum and be like, please bring me home. And she'd be like, oh my God, you'll be fine. You just need to stick it out. It'll get better. It'll get better.

18:36I was so homesick. And nobody expected it from me because I'd always just been kind of like the first one to climb a tree and jump off a thing. You know, I was always brave, but it was really hard. And I remember when I was talking to a therapist and she said, and I said, oh, I came back from February half term and I was fine after that. And she went, I don't think you were fine. I think you were like those Romanian orphans that just stopped crying when nobody came. And I think that was when she said that to me, everything fell into place. I said, that's why I don't ask for help. So that's why I struggle with close relationships.

19:07You know, so that's why it's so important to me to be perfect, because I have to do this right. You know, when I'm crying and sobbing, I'm not doing it right. Somehow I'm, I'm not achieving at being at boarding school. You know, it was weird, but it all fell into place. And so when I had a baby and I couldn't do that, I mean, I couldn't not do it, but it just felt so difficult. And so I suppose the word is like I was on a knife edge. I was never secure. I was this far away from complete fucking disaster, mentally or physically, whatever. I just thought, like, what is wrong with me? Nobody, I can't be this person that can't do this.

19:46Nobody will love me.

19:51This episode is brought to you by The Family Suite, the new travel platform showcasing the world's most beautiful family-friendly luxury hotels. The Family Suite is a new travel platform creating the world's most beautiful, genuinely family-friendly luxury hotels. It is now live at thefamilysuite.co.uk and on Instagram at the underscore family suite. Please go and have a look. It is just absolutely beautiful, all of the hotels. Each hotel is handpicked for its design, warmth and enriching experiences of all ages, making it easier than ever to plan unforgettable family getaways. Perfect for modern parents looking for trusted, inspiring recommendations with editorial storytelling, practical tips and a best price guarantee.

20:42Start planning your next family getaway with The Family Suite. Explore the full collection now at thefamilysuite.co.uk and discover luxury hotels around the world that truly welcome families. That's thefamilysuite.co.uk.

21:00Thinking about the mental load as well and the way that we manage our lives, it's so fascinating to look at it with that lens, which is like you said at the start, what is my part in this of having to have it this way, perfect, control, versus, and I think this is super interesting to think about, you know what is a reasonable standard like yeah with the bed and how on earth do we decide as a couple two people with completely different standards often where to meet in the middle yeah well I think that comes from communication it's like literally it sounds ridiculous but like you talk about how you make a bed like yeah I mean listen I've never taught guy how to make the bed but then I'm I'm more like Jimmy I throw it together yeah I'm like listen I'm good with this but like not this yes like I think that's I mean it sounds silly but I do think you have to get down to the nuts but if you're getting a resentment from it you need to talk about it yeah even if it's like why are you loading the dishwasher like this could you load it like this and he'll be like well I load it like this because and then you're having a conversation you're like oh that's why you load it like that I mean I can't think of one good reason why Jimmy loads the dishwasher the way he does but I'm sure he's got one so I am the this is the number one thing in our house is the The dishwasher.

22:10Because Guy stacks it like some sort of Swedish engineer. I'm like Guy. And he measures it. And it is, I mean, he doesn't actually measure it, but it's like, it's a work of art. Yeah. I am like throwing it in. You and Jimmy would get on so well. I mean, your house would be disgusting. Yeah. We'd have a lot of fun though, wouldn't we? He says to me, he's like, and I get it because I did this amazing podcast with this guy called Matt Frey. if you're not listening to what your partner is telling you and you're just repeating it's like saying you don't you don't care it's it feels like an unkindness that's right and to be fair it was a little bit on my part i was like i don't really give a shit about this he he and then he restacks it so then over the summer i was like we've got eight weeks in this house to get the tickets i will and now i'm like i've really tried and i can see bless his little heart he's like he's joyful yes and that's an act of service when people talk about acts of service it's not doing the things that you want to do it's knowing that you're doing the things that that's you wouldn't necessarily do but you're doing because you know they really don't care about how the dishwasher but i care about him and he cares exactly that is and all it is is just a different a little bit of extra effort to do it in a different way and again coming back to this idea of what's my part in it i really want to establish that the importance of learning between fault and responsibility because what's my part in it could just be I'm responsible for this.

23:33And it's not about saying you're at fault. I think that's really important. I had to go, well, I'm responsible for this because I'm not able to communicate in a way that works for us. It's not my fault because I grew up with a blueprint that wasn't great or no blueprint at all. But it is now my responsibility to change that. And it's the same with the guys. they didn't it's not their fault they didn't grow up being indoctrinated into this mental load but it is now their responsibility to get on board and figure it out it's never going to be as fluent for them as it is for us in this generation I don't think for the majority of men I just don't think it is but I would hope that if we start doing the work now our kids will be able to see more fluency across the genders in that mental load management than we do and so on and so forth Someone asked Rose, our youngest, what her daddy does.

24:23And he's quite impressive. He's like built and sold a couple of businesses. And she said, daddy wipes the sides because that's what she sees. Oh my God, I love that. And I was like, yes. Do you know what my kid said to the head teacher when he asked what I did? What? She said, she makes videos and sells them on the internet. And I was like, not those videos. Are they the exact words that you said? She said, yeah, you make videos and sell them on the internet. I was like, I'm going to have a word with the head teacher. And literally, obviously, because it's me, there was no boundaries. I went, just so that you know it's not OnlyFans.

24:57And he went, I'm sorry, what? I was like, what I do, I don't sell videos. He's typing OnlyFans. He's like, we don't need to have this. I'm like, no, but I need you to know it's not OnlyFans. Like I do Instagram stuff, but not like OnlyFans on Instagram. Like I went down this spiral of stuff. You're still talking. Yeah, it was like really like a strong ADHD moment where he was like, call security. like she's a mentalist but yeah the things could say yeah and I'm sure you get asked this a lot but what advice would you give for someone whose partner either sex just will not get on board so you said that you know it's like I've done everything yeah I think I thought digging into recovery teachings here a little bit but I think at some point you have to kind of detach with love and recognize that you have done and said everything that you need, as long as you have, like, I think you have to get really honest about whether you really have been very clear and whether you have given them a chance and made, you know, because I certainly didn't initially, but I think if you really feel you've done everything, you need to detach with love, which in the first instance, which for me is, looks like I'm going to get on with my stuff.

26:08I'm not mad. I'm not going I'm going to let go of resentments. I'm going to let him be, and I'm going to get on with our stuff. And Jimmy did that to me when I was in active addiction and he was in, you know, his own sort of support group for people who, he was in Al-Anon. Now I've said it, but anyway, he was in Al-Anon because I was an addict and I wasn't in recovery and it's for friends and family of addicts. And he, I noticed that detachment. Did you? Yeah. How does that feel to be on the... Well, at first I was like, this is great. Now I can drink whatever I want. Right. Because like before we'd have a fight about when we were going home from a party.

26:42He was counting my drinks, doing all this. And then eventually he'd be like, right, I'm going to go home. You can get a taxi whenever you're ready. And I was like, great. We're not having a fight and I can now drink more. But eventually I started to realize that it felt quite lonely being on the outside of, not the outside, but like not having him there. There was definitely a distance and I didn't like that. And also because he was doing the work, he was like really reasonable. And that was really annoying that made me feel like a dick because you know when you just want to fight and then someone in recovery won't fight with you we'd start a fight and then he'd go off and he'd come back and he'd be like listen I've thought about my part in it and I just want to say I'm sorry for doing this and if I was a good human I'd be like I'm sorry for my part in it too what I did was yeah so you should be yeah because obviously I was still a dick but eventually my you know I saw these things happening and I was like I maybe want a little bit of that you know I want a little, I mean, I don't know if I can do it, but that's sort of what I want.

27:36So, you know, I think detaching with love and letting your, choosing your happiness over their bullshit. Like it's not about saying this is, it's the end. It may be, but initially just see if you can detach with love, let it go. They may meet you. They may rise up to meet you because I think a lot of us get entangled in the, in the drama. and once you take the drama out of it it lays everything bare so that really sort of helped for me but it's not easy when you're not on the same page as you and there are people who are going to divorce each other of course there are people there are people who aren't nice to be married to there are dickheads out there who just aren't going to change um but I do think that sometimes we haven't been given the tools to investigate all options properly before we go to divorce I I mean, that's what I did.

28:30I went straight to separation. And thank God I didn't, you know. Yeah, because you hit that moment. Well, as you said, he was breathing wrong. He was walking in the room. I couldn't stand it. Yeah, it was like a visceral, get out of my face. Why am I living with you? Yeah. I'm your ginger. I'm only joking. I loved it. He's got great ginger. I want to ask about, you've touched on it a few times on recovery. Yeah. What was it that made you realize this is a problem? and I want to do something about it because lots of that mummy, wine, lots of people listening will be wanting me to ask you that question.

29:09Well, I think it's true what they say. Like only you can decide if you've got a problem. There isn't a threshold that you have to hit where somebody goes, now you're an alcoholic. Because lots of people go, I've never drunk in the morning. Yeah, well, that's me. I never drank in the morning. I mean, my sponsor would say, you know, what about those times when you were up all night doing coke and you were still drinking wine at seven? I was like, well, that doesn't count. She's like, it's morning drinking. Or 3am, still morning. I was like, okay, fine. but it's technical. I never woke up and poured vodka on my cornflakes.