Interview with Steph Wagner: A Woman’s Guide to Financial Freedom

0:04If you're sitting here right now, wherever you are with your relationship with money, do you like to get in the game or are you more comfortable to sit on the sideline and watch other people. Well, that's the difference between abundance and scarcity, right? But how do you go and unleash your power if it's trapped inside of you in fear?

0:25That was Steph Wagner, author of Fly, A Woman's Guide to Financial Freedom and Building a Life You Love. I'm Motley Fool producer Matt Greer. Now, Motley Fool contributor Rachel Warren recently talked with Wagner about financial empowerment, retirement, and yes, building a life you love. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Motley Fool Conversations. I'm Motley Fool contributing stock analyst Rachel Warren, and I'm delighted to be joined on the show today by Steph Wagner, a nationally recognized authority on women's economic security and national director of women and wealth at Northern Trust.

1:00Steph leads the firm's advisory practice for women and its Elevating Women platform. It's a national program focused on building financial literacy and helping women use their wealth to create meaningful impact in their families, businesses and communities. Before joining Northern Trust, Steph spent years advising high net worth women navigating major life transitions. And she also built a national consulting practice for wealth management firms seeking to better serve female clients and founded Women Wealthy Wise, a platform dedicated to advancing financial literacy and empowerment for women.

1:34In her new book, Fly, A Woman's Guide to Financial Freedom and Building a Life You Love, Steph gives women an empowering tools-based approach to help achieve financial freedom and thrive for years to come. Steph, I'm really excited to talk with you today and discuss your book. Welcome to the show. Well, thank you. It's wonderful to be here. I want to really set the table here for our conversation today. Your book starts with your own deeply personal story, a really pivotal series of moments in your life that led you to take control of your finances and create your own plan for success and subsequently discover a real passion for educating and empowering women to take charge of their money.

2:15So maybe just start today, you know, share with our audience your background, your story, and the journey that began, I think, as you put it in your book, your wake-up call to financial independence. Yeah, thank you. I actually always loved finance. I loved math. I kind of went to college knowing I wanted to do this. You know, I wanted to get in the world of finance, particularly corporate finance. And I started my career in investment banking and was really fortunate to get in this crazy world of private equity very young, pretty naive about it. Way back then, it was in its infancy. Certainly no women, I think, in the field.

2:52So consequently, I had no mentors, which became really important as I was navigating my career, my life. I got married. I started having children. And this was really the beginning of what eventually became my wake-up call, which was, you know, the pressures that I think so many women feel as their careers are evolving and then as your family life is tugging at you, especially in the world of finance. I actually had this moment where I was asked to get on a plane to Cessna, no less, to go and look at a deal in a very rural town of Alabama. I was six months pregnant. I had a two-year-old at home and my husband at the time traveled over 150 nights a year.

3:33And I just sat there and said, this isn't sustainable. Like something has to give. And as I shared, I had no one to talk to. And I really saw it very black and white. I quit, literally, like the next day. And that wasn't really where I lost my financial independence. Yes, I lost my earning power in that moment, but I always thought I could get that back really quickly. I think what happened to me, which happens to so many people is as couples, we're dividing and conquering, you know, as we're navigating all the busyness. And I began to lean out of every aspect of my financial life. I'd met my ex-husband in college.

4:09We were both finance majors. He had a thriving career in finance. I'm like, you do it. I'm sick of this. And all that kind of worked until he did it. And that didn't moment was when 14 years later, I learned that he'd been really living a double life in love with another woman, having an affair and wanted a divorce. And it was the beginning of, oh, my God, what had I done? Like, I don't even know where I stand financially. I don't even know how I'm going to support these children, support myself. And I've put myself at tremendous risk, not just for today, but really for my future. And that was my wake up call.

4:48You know, if I love this stuff, if I had an aptitude for it and I lost my financial autonomy, what is the average person, woman doing that didn't learn this stuff, that never been exposed to it and are suddenly navigating life and going, oh my gosh, and it doesn't have to be divorce. My catalyst was certainly divorce. It could be any major life event, right? Business failure, death of a spouse, anything. In January of 1915, Ernest Shackleton's ship, Endurance, became encased in the ice in the Weddell Sea. Through determination, grit, and savvy, Shackleton would lead his men through a brutal winter, then over hundreds of miles of Antarctic ice, followed by 800 miles across some of the roughest waters in the world.

5:29It is one of the most extraordinary and inspirational journeys in the history of exploration. Find this story and many others at the Explorers Podcast, available wherever you get your podcasts or at explorerspodcast.com. Yeah, I think it's a really powerful story that you tell and as you just laid out and go into more detail in your book, and it sort of spurred as well the beginning of this journey. You know, years actively working with women across the nation to really reclaim and renew their financial power. I think something that, as you said, really stemmed from your own story. So maybe, you know, tell me a bit more about the journey to writing your new book.

6:07Yeah. You know, when everything happened, I mean, my life literally blew up within a few hours of discovering all of this, right? Everything I thought was, wasn't. Everything I thought would be, would never be. And it was this, you know, it was emotionally one of the most devastating things. Obviously, the financial aspect was huge. But as I began to navigate the emotions, I started to write. And this was 12, 13 years ago. I didn't know what I would do with it, but I knew I had a powerful story that a lot of women were navigating similar circumstances, and I wanted to do something good with it.

6:42I didn't know quite yet what. I was still finding my purpose. I was still trying to figure out how I was going to recreate myself and my career. but I knew I wanted to share this and do something good with it. So it didn't take me down. I mean, that's the reality, right? We have a choice when we go through pivotal moments, we're either going to rise or we're going to let it take us down. And I knew I had three little boys watching me. I didn't have a choice, nor did I, it wasn't who I was. Well, I did also know that we have a real problem. If again, if I'm struggling to regain my power, what is the average woman feeling?

7:16And at the core, it was financial literacy. So as I began to reinvent my career, I had developed some curriculum that to me was unique because it was very women don't like to talk about money in general. Right. It's been a taboo topic. So I wanted to strip that away and deliver an educational program that was empowering, tools-based approach, built confidence. You can't give someone confidence. They have to earn it. They have to grow it inside of them. And it was, again, not knowing what I was going to do with this book, but suddenly I had this aha moment as I began to get feedback on how transformative this curriculum was for so many women across the country.

8:01I thought, I think I'm onto something. If I combine this story and I combine this curriculum, which was truly the roadmap of how I rebuilt my financial life and frankly, my life, and I turned that into curriculum, it was my go-to step-by-step, but now I had delivered it so I could help others. I think I might have something powerful. And it's been an amazing journey for that to be 12 years ago and to now be today, here I am launching this book and getting the feedback. It's been one of the most rewarding things I've ever done. And I'm really excited to get it out into the world and to see how it can help other people.

8:42Yeah, I for one found it to be revelatory and really, really interesting work and something that I resonated a lot with as a woman in the financial field. And one of the excerpts that really stuck out to me was in chapter four of your book, Explore Your Relationship with Money. And I want to read an excerpt from it. You know, you write, your relationship with money didn't just form overnight. It's been shaped by your experiences, your beliefs, the messages you've absorbed throughout your life. And understanding your past financial influences is key to recognizing why you interact with money the way you do today.

9:17So I want to dive into that. I mean, what are the questions we need to be asking to really understand the root of our relationship with money? Yeah, I'm so glad you brought that up because it was my first step, right? It was how did I, who loved this stuff, abdicate, right? Why? And that was why when I was actually good at it, you know, and it is the why from our behaviors that is so important because if we create intentionality around it, we can change them, right? But it starts with self-awareness. So I think, you know, for me, one of the things that I try to encourage women or anyone, really, it's not just women, but to think about is how they were raised.

10:01What messages did you receive that may have left an imprint on you that you never, ever thought? Maybe you did the same. Maybe you did the opposite. I share stories within the book, my own personal experiences. as I saw things happening, behaviors that my parents had with money, messages that I received, all debt was bad. You know, that was definitely the case, although that was in sharp contrast to the way my dad was acting. You know, I thought my parents were financially secure. And then suddenly I learn and I'm living this great life and we have the big house behind gates and the country club and the fancy cars.

10:39And I'm thinking, okay, we're comfortable. And then suddenly my dad wins a car on a hole in one at a golf tournament and had to sell it to pay our taxes. And I was so confused. Like, wait a minute. I was taught this through your words, but your actions made me think a certain way. And then here we are. And that caused me, right, to be very nervous about this, to always feel like I didn't have that confidence to make good personal finance decisions. You know, another one too, I think is, it was very much a source of conflict and fighting within my family. You know, and I think that's an important question to ask yourself.

11:20What were the dynamics about money as you were being raised? Did both your parents work on it, you know, and act like a true partnership around it? Or did one person handle everything? Was it a source of conflict? Was money even discussed, right? Did you receive words or even subliminally through actions of, you know, maybe my mom hid things in the trunk from my dad, again, because she didn't want fighting. All of that goes into your current behaviors. But it's not until we stop to say, why am I doing this? Like I said, that we can change course and really have a much better, healthier relationship with money, which is the very first step.

12:03You can know a lot, but you're not going to implement it if this isn't a comfortable experience for you.

12:40You know, something as well that you stress in the book is really that need for women to achieve financial literacy and autonomy. And that's never been, you know, more urgent. And something that I found really interesting was some of the statistics you named in the book. You know, you note at the beginning of your book that nearly half of women still defer financial planning to their partners. Nearly 50 percent of women aged 55 to 66 have no retirement savings and 54 percent of senior women cannot cover their basic needs. And, you know, something you also talked about, we're at a time where more than ever women are a part of the kind of so-called sandwich generation, right?

13:17Caring for children as well as aging loved ones while also providing financial support. So maybe talk about that a bit more about how that financial autonomy impacts all aspects of life and how that can empower us as women to thrive through life's many changing chapters. Absolutely. Absolutely. I like to say this book is actually a women's empowerment book disguised as a finance book because I don't think we're talking enough about this issue. If you're worried about how your bills are going to be paid, if you're worried that you're going to run out of money and be a burden to your family, if you're worried about, you know, living paycheck to paycheck and that stress that keeps you up at night, you don't have the ability to think big.

13:57You don't have the ability to dream. You don't have the ability to say, what brings me actual joy and how might I actually figure out how to monetize that and build a career around it? And that was something that I had to sit in. And I had to sit in that because as I was rebuilding, yes, I could have gone and gotten a job, right? I was in an emotional low. Going and punching a clock and doing something I hated was going to make me even feel worse. And so it became very much a focus of how do I find my purpose? Oh, my God, such a pressurized word, right? Like, find your purpose. What the heck is that?

14:33But I knew if I found something that gave me joy, whether it was a job or I was building a business, I would begin to actually get excited about this new life. And I think to your point, we are living longer than ever. In fact, one thing to highlight is there is today, right, the average age of a woman who who has means, who has the ability to create a healthy lifestyle, access to good medical care, we can expect to live into our 90s. Many of us are leaving the workforce maybe in our mid-50s to 60s. That means decades of joy to create for ourselves. Retirement looks totally different now. Well, we have to be able to dream.

15:13We have to be able to set new goals. We have to be able to create a vision that we want for ourselves and get excited about it and make sure that we have the financial resources to help accomplish them. So I couldn't agree with you more that the intersection of financial autonomy builds so much more, you know, autonomy in our lives and choices and the ability to stay curious, open, and again, dream big. And that never ends. I think in some ways for women in midlife where like my children are gone, you know, I don't have to worry about college and how I'm going to handle all of those expenses and all that, I can just start focusing on me.

15:54And it's a really amazing, powerful time, but you have to have financial autonomy to be able to do that. You know, one of the things as well that I thought was really interesting, and obviously this applies to all of us, both men and women, but you talk about the importance of understanding your money mindset and your money personality, which I thought were really, really interesting kind of ways to frame these concepts. So maybe explain, you know, what is a money mindset and what are the different kinds of money personalities? Sure, sure. Well, money mindset, right? I mean, it's like our mindset in life.

16:24We're either, you know, operating in a growth mindset or a scarcity mindset or an abundance mindset is what I use in the book. And when you're living in fear, which obviously oftentimes when we don't have a handle on our money, we are operating out of fear. Well, no good decisions come out of fear. It also keeps us living small, right? We don't have the confidence to dream big. But when we're living in a world of abundance, right, where we think, wait, there's enough for everyone. I can continue to recreate. I believe in myself enough to invest in myself and monetize and grow my earning power.

17:01But what's really key is we have to also recognize that it's not just this idea of money is always there and circulating and we can always earn it. We've got to get the tools to be able to use our money to work for us. And that's part of being in a growth or abundance mindset, too. So that's critical because and those are things like ask yourself, right? If you're sitting here right now, wherever you are with your relationship with money, do you like to get in the game or are you more comfortable to sit on the sideline and watch other people? Well, that's the difference between abundance and scarcity, right?

17:35But how do you go and unleash your power if it's trapped inside of you in fear? And I remember a story, if I can share this, and it's not in the book actually, but I remember as I was building and I had hired my team, who's going to manage what little wealth I had honestly out of this divorce? It wasn't much. In fact, I think I cashed in a lot of favors to have them take me on as a client. And I was trying to figure out what am I going to do to earn anything? I was so afraid. And this good friend who happened to take me on said, Steph, you got to stop. Like, you got to stop playing life small.

18:08You got to stop operating out of fear because that Steph that got into private equity, that, you know, tackled raising kids the way she did early on in her career, all in, she's never going to come back. and you're too young, right? You've got too much opportunity in the world to take advantage of. And it was a real moment of, you got a choice, you know? And it was an intentional shift. But all of this goes to say, how do you live your life day to day with money? And that's where you get into the money personalities that you talk about. There are traits and behaviors without even knowing, whether we're a spender, a penny pincher, whether we're an avoider that says, you know what, I don't even want to know what I have.

18:48It's better to just bury my head in the sand. I don't even know what my accounts are. It just triggers anxiety. Or whether you're a trailblazer, right? We all know those trailblazers that are out creating wealth. Many of them are entrepreneurs. But they're also kind of that DIY, I know I can do this on my own, and maybe it's not the best use of your time and talent. Maybe it serves you well to actually delegate. Oftentimes, a trailblazer doesn't even stop to enjoy the roses, right? to say, wow, I've done this. Now I need to go and make sure I grow it and actually know how to manage, protect, and preserve my wealth.

19:27And maybe I'm not the best person. So we all have those. And I think every single money personality, and I lay it out in detail in the book, have good traits, strengths, and they have weaknesses. And until we stop and recognize our good behaviors from our bad, we can't purge what isn't working for us or what might be holding us back. But again, it's not about punishing ourselves or creating more shame around this. It's just about self-awareness because once we're aware, we can make intentional shifts. As we come to the end of our discussion today, maybe one more question for you. You know, if there's someone listening that's thinking, I really want to start my journey towards financial empowerment and financial freedom.

20:07I'm not exactly sure where to begin. What are kind of some practical initial steps that one could take? Well, first of all, understand this isn't as hard as it looks, right? And recognizing where you're at and being okay with it. Don't having shame around it. And that's what I try to accomplish in those first few chapters of, if it can happen to me, it can happen to anyone, right? So acknowledging, just wanting to take that first step is pat yourself on the back, right? It's also small steps lead to big rewards. You don't, no one's asking you to learn all this in a day, right? These are little baby steps.

20:42But I do think that the most important thing is to acknowledge where you are emotionally and to really start with understanding your current relationship with money, where you've been, why you have this relationship and where do you wanna go? What are the goals that you wanna have? What's the vision that you have for your future? Because if you do, it will start to inspire and ignite a flame in you that will want you to continue on this journey versus give up, you know, because the next step you have to do is really take a hard look at your financial reality. And that can be kind of painful. But if you have a goal of where you want to go, then it helps you say, OK, well, there's a reason why I'm going through all this work because I'm not going to get to accomplish that goal unless I do it.

21:29So if you start without that, it's really easy to just fall off that diet really fast. I think there's so many practical tools that are contained within your book and also just in the conversation we've had today. I know I have found it to be a really educational, delightful experience. You know, for those who are viewing or listening, check out Steph's new book, Fly, A Woman's Guide to Financial Freedom and Building a Life You Love. Steph, it's been a delight to speak with you today. Thank you for joining me.

21:59People on the program may have interest in the stocks they talk about and The Motley Fool may have formal recommendations for or against. So don't buy or sell stocks based solely on what you hear. All personal finance content follows Motley Fool editorial standards and is not approved by advertisers. Advertisements are sponsored content and provided for informational purposes only. To see our full advertising disclosure, please check out our show notes. For the Motley Fool Money team, I'm Mac Greer. Thanks for listening, and we will see you tomorrow.