Thriving with Anxiety

0:04When it comes to investing, I think people often are in fight or flight because they're either really excited about something, like aggressive, and like, you know, you got that sort of Wall Street energy, or they're sort of afraid, nervous, you know, apprehensive, running, you know, selling, impulsive, and that kind of thing.

0:28That was Dr. David Ross-Marion, author of Thriving with Anxiety, Nine Tools to Make Your Anxiety Work for You. I'm Motley Fool producer Matt Greer. Now, Motley Fool analyst Jason Moser recently talked to Ross Maron about thriving with anxiety in everything from parenting to investing. Enjoy. I'm happy to be joined by Dr. David Ross Maron today. Dr. Ross Maron is the founder of the Center for Anxiety and a psychologist at McLean Hospital, as well as an associate professor in the Department of Psychiatry at Harvard Medical School. And he's also the author of Thriving with Anxiety, Nine Tools to Make Your Anxiety Work for You.

1:08Dr. Ross Marin, thanks so much for being with us today. Thanks for having me. Huge honor to be here. You know, it was a fascinating book, and I really got a lot out of reading it. I want to start off with why do you believe that normal or healthy children today have higher anxiety levels than the psychiatric patients that you noted in the 1950s? It's an incredible finding, isn't it? That healthy children today have more anxiety than inpatient psych hospital patients from the 1950s in the United States. Now, I want to be clear, that's only in the United States. So if you go to third world countries, you go to low income, middle income countries, they do not have as much anxiety.

1:47And the reason is because, well, kids today think that if they have anxiety, then something is wrong with them and it takes them down the tubes. The reality is anxiety is part of life, and our culture tells us everything to the opposite, which is creating an anxiety epidemic. Interesting. And you also describe in the book anxiety as a false positive fear response. You know, in a world of seemingly real threats every day, right? I mean, we just went through, I think, a very anxious time for many of us over the last several years with COVID and whatnot. But in a world of real threats, how do we distinguish between a misfire and a legitimate alarm?

2:24I think Warren Buffett said it best. He's my psychologist. You know, when people are fearful, get greedy. And often we misinterpret anxiety as a problem when in fact it really is an opportunity. And that's not only the case fiscally, which I'm sure we're going to talk about being that, you know, the nature of the podcast. But it's also the case emotionally in terms of our relationships, in terms of others. There are things that are going to set you off. That's not a bad thing. It means you're human and learning how to mine those opportunities is really what this is about. Well, I'm glad you brought up Warren Buffett because obviously we're focused on investing for the most part here at The Motley Fool.

3:00But let's dig into that a little bit because emotions are one of those things, you know, we can't avoid them. And yet when we talk about investing, we really try to make sure we keep our emotions at bay, right? We don't want to let our emotions guide decisions. How do you do that, right? I mean, it's a bit of a squishy topic. I think some of us are probably given a little bit more of the ability to do that than others, but it is difficult in life. But investing as well to sort of keep our emotions out of the equation. What are some ways that we can actually work on doing that? I think the operative word that you said is try.

3:35And to be perfectly honest, it's trying in a futile way. It's not going to happen. You're human. And it's money. It's going to get to you. If you care about funds, which almost everybody listening to today's episode is, otherwise you wouldn't be tuned into this topic. it's going to get your emotions. Your relationships are going to get you. Your money's going to get you. It's just this important stuff. You're a human being. So I don't think the goal is to get it out of the equation. I think the goal is to learn how to harness it and learn when to listen to it and when to know that it's just noise.

4:05But getting it out of the equation, that's superhuman. I actually don't think it's possible nor beneficial. Right. Well, I think that's it. I mean, emotions, you can't turn them off, right? They just are. It's learning how to manage it. Yeah, that's interesting. You know, I think many of us are familiar with fight or flight. That's something I think many of us understand. You also talk in the book about this rest and digest system, which I thought was interesting. Can you expand just on the physiological importance of this system and why trying to suppress anxiety actually prevents that rest and digest system from kicking in?

4:39Yeah, there is a compensatory or I should say an opposite process to the fight or flight system, which is called rest and digest. it's mediated by a chemical in the body called acetylcholine if you really want to geek out you can look that one up which is in some ways the opposite sort of of adrenaline which i'm sure is something you've heard of but those are your sort of two processes you know adrenaline for fight or flight and then your acetylcholine which is mediating this rest or digest system now you know when it comes to investing i think people often are in fight or flight because they're either really excited about something and like aggressive and like, you know, you got that sort of Wall Street energy or they're sort of afraid, nervous, you know, apprehensive, running, you know, selling, impulsive and that kind of thing.

5:25And, you know, channeling the rest and digest system means accepting that you are going to feel anxious at times and not letting it get the better of you. It's not getting rid of it. If you're going to try to get rid of it, you're going to end up making bad decisions. Rather to know, like, you're gonna get walloped, it's gonna happen, boom, like, adrenaline's gonna go off. It's gonna happen. You're human. And then, once you accept that and give yourself a minute, five minutes, maybe ten, the acetylcholine will actually move through your system and you'll start to come. But if you try to get rid of those feelings or be impulsive in order to deal with them, God help you.

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6:38You say in the book that relaxation techniques can actually dull the effects of exposure therapy, right? So as a reminder for listeners, what is exposure therapy first? And then secondly, why is it more beneficial to be uncomfortable during treatment? Yeah. So in order to, I would say, overcome clinical anxiety, which is an issue, you know, we've been talking about anxieties and emotion, which all human beings have have and can be very adaptive and functional and healthy and positive. At a certain point, anxiety does get the better of you. We call that clinical anxiety or clinical anxiety disorders.

7:15That's when anxiety interferes with your day to day. If you have a clinical anxiety disorder, then it's not just about fully embracing and moving into, I mean, it kind of is, but it's more about going to a professional and getting some sort of help to take things down a notch. at a certain point anxiety does get intense and gets into in the way of your life that's the line that we're talking about the problem we were speaking about before just to be really clear is that we interpret any anxiety as a problem and that's not the case that just means you're human but at a certain point there is validity to that it does get in the way at a certain point for certain people then you're looking at exposure therapy and this is challenging where you actually face the anxiety head on in therapy with a coach or a therapist who's going to take you through and you're afraid of driving, you're getting in that car.

8:07Yeah. You're afraid of losing money, you're going to be writing out a script about what it's like to be dead poor and actually going over it in your mind. And it's not fun, but that does build resilience. So yeah, that's exposure therapy in a nutshell. Yeah. Facing your fear, I guess. That's something we are taught as kids. And yes, sometimes it's not so easy, but it can certainly be effective. In the book, you mentioned Stephen Covey's 90-10 principle. Can you talk a little bit about what that is and why that can help someone with social anxiety better understand their interactions with others?

8:40Yeah. You know, almost all the time when you're interacting with other people, it's non-verbals, right? Like most of the stuff that gets communicated, it's not in the words. And this is one of the biggest problems we're having today. I don't know about you and your business, but email communication is like so exhausting today. The number of words that we are just seeing on a screen in front of us. And, you know, what I started doing, you know, really after the book is like giving out my cell phone number and I put it in the bottom of all my emails. And I'm like, if something's not clear, text me or call me.

9:13And I hop on a call in three minutes, I hear the non-verbals. I hear the pregnant pauses. I know where people are at. And like, it just smooths over the relationship. So now you can actually get back to business. Yes, there is a time for that 300 word email when you're, you know, documenting or, you know, stuff's going to get shifted around to lawyers. Like we all have that. That's fine. But like you're dealing with humans. So 90 % of our interactions are really not just verbal or not. They're more than that. They transcend it because it's about connection. That makes sense. There was an interesting case study in the book, I thought, with Madison and her issue with self-loathing.

9:50Oh, yeah. In your experience, why is it that people who seem to have things going their way, right? Maybe they're wealthy or they're successful or they're good looking, but things are going their way. Why are they often your most challenging clinical cases? It seems like they've got it made, right? Why is it such an issue? That's exactly the issue. And I want to be really clear for the audience today. The hardest cases that I have ever seen in 25 years of working in this field, they all have the same profile. they are the best looking best educated smartest children of super wealthy parents and the reason i think is because of imposter syndrome they just they're never good enough they never feel like they've earned it and often they haven't they feel like they're they've never had to actually experience anxiety and all of a sudden they're facing some adversity and they're like i can't I just can't.

10:44So they change their major or they take a leave of absence or they go on a gallivanting trip around Europe or Asia or wherever in order to escape. Now, often those kids will come back and they'll work hard and they'll face the anxiety and they'll recognize that if you're going to do big things in life, it's going to suck emotionally at some point. And they accept it. And their parents have accepted it. And that sort of institutional, I should say, generational data can transfer, but it's a hard lift and they can be the most rewarding cases in the world, but also the most challenging. Yeah. You said imposter syndrome.

11:21I think we've all probably been there before. I felt that way before as well. There is a section in the book called anxiety is a compass. What do you mean by that? Sure. What are you anxious about me? Well, I mean, not to get too personal. You know, I always said when, when, when I talk with people and they're getting ready to become parents, right? I'm the father of two daughters in college now. The one thing I realized the second my first child was born, I am never not anxious. I'm never not worrying about that child. It is just constant. And get ready to worry for the rest of your life. Right.

11:57And what does it say about you as a father? Well, hopefully it means that I care and I love them very much. Yeah. Right. Isn't that a beautiful thing when you think about it? It is. It's the greatest thing ever. And also when people think about, by the way, it's not always so simple. Like let's say people really care about money. Why? They want to support their family. They want to have some security. So that way they can bring their best self to their relationships. They want to be able to go on a vacation and actually enjoy people's company together and not worry about stuff because they've seen somebody else who didn't have all that.

12:29Like often there's really a very wonderful aspect about it that you care about. It's not always just like, you know, greedy, you know, trying to pad your bank accounts. It can be there can be something else beneath it if that's what makes you anxious, which is often the case. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's the old added, right? Money maybe doesn't really necessarily buy happiness, but it affords you a lot of opportunities to to pursue happiness and be happy and not worry as much. Which is true. And while sticking with the parenting theme, then I think this worked out very well. What is lawnmower parenting and how does that contribute to societal anxiety?

13:02Yeah. So, I mean, everybody's heard of helicopter parenting. Sure. Where you sort of hover and wait. And like the minute there's a problem, you swoop in and like pick the kid up. And, you know, that often happens, I would say, in high net worth families where parents don't want their kids to fail because they had the means and they feel that in every other area of their life, they're successful. So their kids should have that success too, which often creates some of the dynamics that we spoke about before. Lawnmower parenting takes things a step further, where you're actually paving the way in front of that said child by mowing the lawn in front of them.

13:40They don't have to cut through brush. They don't even have to walk through an unmanicured surface. They can simply go behind the lawnmower and be able to walk on grass that's perfectly two inches tall and tickles your feet as you walk, which obviously does not build resilience, does not build self-confidence, does not build a sense of identity, and it doesn't build the ability to withstand the adversity and the vicissitudes of life, which does not bode well in general. You can see how that would be a problem. It also creates loneliness because when children are walking behind that lawnmower, so to speak, they're walking alone, maybe with a sibling, but they're not walking with friends.

14:22They're embarrassed. And that lack of connection creates a crisis of loneliness, which is kind of ubiquitous today. Yep, absolutely. There was a part of the book here that really took me into my investing mindset. And you're talking about decoupling efforts from outcomes. And it makes me think of how we as investors, we very much, we try to stay focused on the process and focus less on the outcome, right? In investing, we're not going to bat a thousand. We're going to get some things wrong. But if we can nail down a really good process, that really gives us a chance for consistent and positive outcomes.

14:59It's not 100 percent. But again, this decoupling efforts from outcomes part of the book made me think about that way. And I wonder why do you feel like that is a necessary step for reducing chronic worry? The truth is we're human and you cannot predict the future. And that's never going to change. And, you know, I guess for some that might have a spiritual frame to it. But even just from a psychological standpoint, that's the truth. We live in the present. We do not live in the future. We might live in the past sometimes, but we cannot predict the future. We do not have a crystal ball. At least I don't.

15:31And that means that some degree of anxiety will be there unless we simply accept that that uncertainty is part of the package and we march forward into the darkness, not knowing what will be guided by our values and our principles as opposed to trying to predict the future, which is futile. And that creates a disparity or a chasm between our experience, which is being guided hopefully by principles and by a method or an approach in investing or in anything versus the ability to control it, which we just don't have. Yeah, I'm glad you made that point about predicting the future, because investing is very much a forward-looking exercise, right?

16:12The market is pricing these stocks based on what they think these companies are going to do in the future. It's not as much about what they did in the past. And that's why I feel like for investing, I'm sure in all walks of life, it's nice to have that sort of process down and you don't have to worry about the outcome when you have a solid process. I come from a bit of a finance background. My dad is in finance. I have a brother in finance. And my father always told me a guaranteed investment, run. Don't walk. Because it's just a lie. And that guarantee is intended to create a less anxiety in the short run.

16:45And it might. But really, in the long run, that vulnerability is going to get exposed. Absolutely. The Civil War and Reconstruction was a pivotal era in American history. When a war was fought to save the Union and to free the slaves. And when the work to rebuild the nation after that war was over turned into a struggle to guarantee liberty and justice for all Americans. I'm Tracy. And I'm Rich. And we want to invite you to join us as we take an in-depth look at this pivotal era in American history. Look for the Civil War and Reconstruction wherever you find your podcasts. You write in the book about the power of prayer and how that is a perspective shifter rather than a way to sort of manipulate outcomes.

17:34And I wonder, how do you feel like this helps a secular person understand the utility of spiritual practice? First, something fascinating I have found in my research at McLean Hospital in the Harvard Medical System, which is that over 80 percent of our patients, and this is in eastern Massachusetts, right, the least religious enclave in the entire union of the United States of America, are using prayer in some way to cope with their distress on a regular basis. And those are fairly consistent, even in the general public. I mean, if you look at the Gallup poll, if you look at other, you know, national Pew Forum, if you look at other national surveys, that people often do resort to prayer.

18:14It's not 100 percent, it's not even 90, but it's a lot. And certainly the statistical majority of people in the United States of America, less so in Europe, even more so in South America and, you know, culturally. But that's sort of the baseline. Part of it is an actual direct spiritual experience of speaking to whatever somebody believes in. But there's another piece of it that I think is just very human. And as you said, not religious, maybe even secular, which is appreciating and embracing the uncertainty and the lack of control that human beings have and being okay with it. It's kind of like when I get on a plane.

18:52I'm not flying the plane. The armored door is closed. I'm not going into that cockpit. I'm sitting in my seat. Do I relinquish control at that point to whoever's driving the plane, flying the plane? That will greatly improve my experience of flying if I can just sort of like, okay, time to get a ginger ale and enjoy the ride. And that I think is really a psychological aspect of prayer in addition to the spiritual or even religious pieces of it. There is a section in the book called Everyday Heroes. And I wonder, can you talk a little bit about what that means and then why you feel like some level of anxiety is required in order to live a meaningful life?

19:38You know, I ask this question to a lot of people. What's something in your life that you are the most proud of that you accomplished? Oh, well, I mean, I've always said it's my family. Getting married and having my kids, that's the most important thing I'll ever do. Yeah. Getting married, having kids. And is that on the list in the top five things of what has made you anxious? Uh, yes, I would say. Yes, absolutely. Like I was saying, I never stop worrying about my kids. And the things that are closest to you that you love the most probably also bring a little bit of worry. Almost always. What you care about will make you anxious.

20:13And if you want to be a hero in a certain area, you're going to have to face that adversity and that anxiety. I've never met a super successful person who did not have significant anxiety about their success. And that's often what fuels them because they are really embracing the uncertainty and able to push forward and able to tolerate it. And nevertheless, moving through the universe with that perspective in mind. It's just a healthy way that we have kind of lost in the United States. I think the more we try to control our feelings and the more we try to control uncertainty and get our hands around the universe as opposed to sort of accepting our place, doing the best we can.

20:53I'm not saying to just leave it all to chance, of course, but doing the best we can with principles and with values in place and then moving forward from there, not trying to control our feelings or the outcomes. It's just a more healthy approach to humanity. Yeah. Okay. Last question before I let you go. And I'm going to kind of put you on the spot here. I have a feeling I know what the answer is going to be. It's kind of like trying to pick your favorite child, I guess. But you have nine tools that you talk about in the book, right? Nine tools to make your anxiety work for you. Now, I feel like all nine tools are meant to work together as a system.

21:23But if there were one, if there was one tool out of those nine that you talk about in the book, is there one that stands out to you as more effective or essential or your favorite, so to speak? I'll tell you, the entire thing is really about connection. The first three tools are about connection with yourself. Can you accept your anxiety or do you force it out? Can you push through the difficult feelings or do you let them defeat you? It's about your body and your soul. The second three are about our connection with others, using it to connect with other people, to understand them, to tolerate difficulties, difficult people, and to remain connected to them.

22:01And the last one is about our spiritual connection, learning to really embrace uncertainty and the limits of our humanity and nevertheless move forward in the universe. But in all three domains, it's about not being isolated and not being alone. And to me, that's really the pinnacle of dealing with anxiety, of thriving, and of being successful. This is really where wellness and leadership kind of come together. Well, he is the author of Thriving with Anxiety, Nine Tools to Make Your Anxiety Work for You. Dr. David Rosmarin, thanks so much for being with us today. Thank you for the great conversation.

22:34Really appreciate this.

22:38As always, people on the program may have interest in the stocks they talk about, and The Motley Fool may have formal recommendations for or against. So don't buy or sell stocks based solely on what you hear. All personal finance content follows Motley Fool editorial standards and is not approved by advertisers. Advertisements are sponsored content and provided for informational purposes only. To see our full advertising disclosure, please check out our show notes. For the Motley Fool Money team, I'm Matt Greer. Thanks for listening, and we will see you tomorrow. Thank you.