Decoding Tony Hawk’s mindset in 72 minutes

14:30Tony Hawk:To reach the top of skateboarding at the time I did it, it meant that you got your picture in a magazine. That was it. I mean, truly, first place for a competition was$100. And I wasn't pro. So I'm just trying to get free gear. That's the goal.

14:48Sam Parr:I know that. I mean, you were making some money when you were 16, 17, 18. I want to ask about that. Sure.

14:54Tony Hawk:I mean, that did eventually come and I got to ride the wave of skateboarding's growth and popularity, which was incredible and was, you know, something that I never dreamed of because that's, I guess that's the point is you, when you were a kid in those days skateboarding, you couldn't dream of being rich or famous because no one was.

15:14Sam Parr:So what did you think you'd be doing at like age 40? Were you like, I got to just have fun now and maybe I'll teach or something? Or you didn't even think about it.

15:22Tony Hawk:Oh, yeah. I mean, my ultimate, I guess what I saw for myself, I was always really good at mathematics. I thought I'd be a math teacher because I always helped my friends with homework. That was it. I wasn't aspiring to some professional level. It was just more like, oh, I'm good at this and that will probably be my career trajectory. And then once I was 16, money started to come in through royalties and suddenly realized that I was making more than my math teacher at age 17.

15:58Sam Parr:I've noticed this trend. And this is actually something that has always surprised me. We had this guy named David Rubenstein on the other day. He's like a billionaire guy who started a really successful company. And we've had a bunch of like really incredibly successful people on. And I've asked this question many times, like, where did you think it was going to go? And almost every time, the answer has been like magnitude smaller than where they ended up. I think there's this like famous scene with Jeff Bezos and he was pitching his first investor when he was starting Amazon. And he was like, you know, guy, if we really nail it, I think this company can make$100 million a year.

16:34Sam Parr:I really think it can do it. Or if you look at like Uber's early pitch deck, it's like, if this goes well, and like the number was like 30 or 40 or$50 million, a year or something like that. And it's so interesting to see that like when you have these huge outsized great results, very rarely is the person who's doing it prediction even remotely in that stratosphere.

16:55Tony Hawk:Oh, no, please. I mean, my first year as a professional skateboarder, I had$640 in the bank from my contest earnings. And I went out and bought myself a Honda scooter so that I could get to the skate park by myself and not have to rely on my parents for rides because their hours were not in tune with how much I wanted to skate. During that grind period, I've heard, I've read somewhere like you had a sort of$5 a day budget like for food. Well, that came later. So I went through this first wave of success, which was, I like to credit to Back to the Future. Like when Back to the Future came out in 85, kids wanted skateboards.

17:36Tony Hawk:I mean, Marty McFly invented the skateboard and a lot of kids, that was their first glimpse of what's possible. So there was this sort of wave of popularity that happened like 86 to 90-ish. And I was, by then, a young adult. I suddenly owned two houses. I had motor ramps set up. And then things dropped off very quickly in 91. My income was dropping by half every month. And what were you, like 19? In 90, I was 22 by then. What were you making leading up to that?

18:09Sam Parr:And then what did it have to? Oh, wow. I would say probably in my best year was in the hundred thousands-ish, you know, in the mid-80s, late 80s.

18:21Tony Hawk:That was like lawyer salaries sort of thing. And I had no vision of saving for the future. So I was like taking all my friends on vacation and buying the newest car and then flipping that one and buying another one, not flipping it, I mean, paying depreciation and then buying another one and, you know, going on shopping sprees, a sharper image. and I had the invincibility of youth on my side and then all of a sudden it went down. I mean, I guess if I had to give you an example, I was making about$1 ,500 a month from my shoe sponsor Airwalk. They would call me every month or so and say, oh, we really got to cut you down a little bit.

19:09Tony Hawk:So then that went to 1 ,000 and then two months later that went to 500 and eventually ended up at 300 within the same year time span. And as that's happening, are you worried? As that's happening, I'm struggling to pay my mortgage. I'm taking every odd job I can. And by that, I mean, well, okay, so this is 1990. I'm 22. I am officially too old to be a featured skateboarder like in commercials because they thought it was just a kid thing but i would but because they knew my name i would get hired as a hollywood consultant so i would i mean i remember this one shoot vividly i i they asked me to build a build a launch ramp so that the skater could go through the frame of this thing they wanted and then they were gonna i think drop glitter or something down Wes, you did it.

20:07Tony Hawk:And so they gave me$500 for two days of work. And they gave me$100 to build a launch ramp. I built a launch ramp in my driveway. I borrowed someone's truck, drove it to Hollywood, set it up in this park, set it up exactly where they wanted. And then they said, okay, can you jump through the frame a couple of times so we can see what it looks like? okay so i do the trick that eventually this younger kid's gonna do and he does it and i drive the ramp home and pay my mortgage on one hey let's take a quick break you know that feeling when strategy is done the brief is written everyone's aligned and you realize someone still has to sit down and actually create all the content that someone is usually you and it's due tomorrow Well, the Breeze Assistant from HubSpot can help.

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21:13Sam Parr:There's this crazy story where you bought a house when you were 17, and you're like, that was insane because you were a senior in high school and had a house. But what's crazier is that your father supported it. I think you said it was maybe even his idea or he was like, yeah.

21:25Tony Hawk:It was his idea. No, it was his idea. Because he saw that I was careless with my income. I wasn't saving for taxes either.

21:33Sam Parr:Well, and that's what I wanted to ask about your dad. Because like Sean and I are young parents. And like, I think your dad was like, he founded like the National Skateboard Association. He encouraged you to get a house. Like he, that sounds like the most supportive dad ever. What, have you learned anything about parenting from him on like how to like encourage your kids to do what they love?

21:52Tony Hawk:Of course. I mean, well, he was the shining example of supporting your kids, even though they're doing something that isn't necessarily going to be a career, but to support them in their passions. my older sister was a singer in high school and he would he would carry like he was their roadie you know he was he was a navy pilot from world war ii a child of the depression um had a really rough childhood of him on his own so he went all in when he had kids and he was obviously frugal with his money. I mean, my mom had to raise four kids on a Navy salary while he was away. But yeah, I learned that you just jump in and try to connect.

22:44Tony Hawk:I mean, my kids, they all skate, but they're all into different stuff. And my daughter is in the theater and I would take her to New York and go to all the shows with her. I don't want to go to Broadway shows. You know what I mean? Or that wasn't something that was like my first choice going to New York, but I want to experience it with her and I want to understand it. And now she's at USC studying theater. So it's that kind of thing. And I definitely learned it by example from my father. When I was 17, there was a new development of homes going up of duplexes near where my parents lived. And my dad said, I think that it would be a good idea to try to get one of these homes.

23:25Tony Hawk:And I can co-sign for you because you're not 18. And I mean, all I heard was, you're going to get your own place. You know what I mean? Like, it wasn't about the financial future. It was more like, oh my God, I have a place to party. And you're a senior in high school. With your own place, you're the popular one now. Yeah. Nobody's putting you in a trash can then. man. So you, when you were in this kind of the downslide of it, though, you said you're 22, you're doing these kind of odd jobs just to pay the mortgage. I mean, did you consider quitting at this point? Are you just like, I don't know?

24:02What was your mindset then? And what'd you tell yourself to get kind of through that period?

24:06Tony Hawk:Well, I never considered quitting skating because I never started skating for money. So even if I had to find a, quote, real job at the time, I was going to find time to skate. That was just, you know, that was ingrained in me. That was my zen. That was my escape. So what I told myself was you better start learning other skills. And I did. I learned how to edit video. I actually had a kind of primitive video editing system, but I could do video effects and stuff. So I took some odd jobs doing that as well. I actually ironically edited a commercial for NEC TurboGrafx, which was a video game system at the time, because my friend worked for them and said, hey, Tony could do this for a tenth of the cost that you're going to pay.

24:56Tony Hawk:And I did it. And so it was just stuff like that. Like I just was trying to hustle and make ends meet. I mean, by then I had a child I knew I had to provide for. So it just forced me into gear. But all along I kept skating.

25:12Sam Parr:Have you ever and I know I'm harping on this but there's there's you and then there's this guy named Rodney Mullen Sean have you heard that name Rodney Mullen? No He's another he there's him and tony are on the mount rushmore With two other guys, but it's definitely him and tony on the mount rushmore skating He's like tony, but was for flat ground So he I think maybe the kickflip he invented but he invented so many more things And there's this like talk where he gives and you could see it's I think it's on ted and you could see how obsessed he is where he talks about being, I think he was raised in the Midwest somewhere with all flat ground.

25:46Sam Parr:And he - Florida, sorry. He grew up on a farm in Florida. And he's like obsessed. I know what it's like. Yeah, and that's why I was gonna, like you guys are very similar and I'm always fascinated by this obsession and this like, because you see it in everyone who's great. You have to have a combination of talent, luck and this like obsession. Have you ever like analyzed that personality type about what makes you or someone like Rodney tick and how it's different from the average person?

26:14Tony Hawk:I haven't. Other people have tried. I recognize it. Like, I've seen it in younger skaters where I know that, oh, they're going to make it. What are the tells? Because you're not there with them every day. So how do you pick up on that? There's a, they can't quench their desire. And they do some of the craziest stuff. They do some of the hardest things. and they just have this look of intensity, not joy. It doesn't look joyous. That's what it is. You know, Rodney, like he created the flat ground ollie. He created the kickflip, the 360 flip, the impossible. And he did it and he was on to the next one.

26:58Sam Parr:It's so funny you're talking about that, not feeling joy because you're like a very happy, nice guy. But then in 99, I think when you did the 900, one of my favorite like clips is not actually the 900. But you see, I'm always fascinated by this like lock-in moment. You see you on top of the ramp and you look like a different person. You do not seem joyful. You are just totally in the zone. And I was always curious, what allows you or what do you feel like when you truly lock in and you have to perform? I think it was on live TV. I remember watching it, but I don't remember if it was live or not, but you have all these people there.

27:36Sam Parr:Like, I'm always curious what you tell yourself before you have to do something great with all this pressure on in order to lock in. Because it seems like you changed to a different person.

27:46Tony Hawk:I think, what do I tell myself? I tell myself, this is the one every time. And I am way past testing this. And if I feel like, I mean, there's so many elements, especially to that trick. There's so many elements. It's just like, you got to have the right amount of speed. You got to have the right snap. You got to have the right trajectory. You need enough height to be able to see your landing zone. But at some point, you take all those things for granted and you know you are going to commit to it even if one of those things isn't right, which I did, obviously, in that moment several times or a dozen times when you look at it.

28:28Tony Hawk:Are you fearful? you don't see failure that's what it is i i do not see when i when i'm doing that i don't i don't consider consequence i don't consider that i might be too tired and give up i don't consider that i might seriously injure myself because once those thoughts enter your head they can spiral out or that that is the that will be the the actual outcome of this i knew in that moment that you're either, I'm either going to make this trick or you're going to carry me unconscious out of this arena. What were the odds of success of that trick? I, well, for me, the odds up to that point in my life, the odds were a hundred percent that I'm going to get hurt if I try to make this because every other time that I tried to make it, I got hurt.

29:17So you had, you had never done it before that moment? No. In practice, nothing, never.

29:23Tony Hawk:No, no, no one had, no one had made completely and ridden away. But I knew, I mean, the last time that I fully committed to it was a few years before that, and I broke my rib on a ramp in a warehouse at around 2 p.m. on a weekday, and I had to go pick up my oldest son, he was little then, at preschool, barely able to breathe because I had broken my rib, and he's waiting for me, so I I had to go get them. Like that was the sort of state of things in 1994. And then fast forward, and no one's watching. Like I just did it because I wanted to make it. And then fast forward five years and it's on this huge stage on live ESPN.

30:09Tony Hawk:Like it just made no sense. But I blocked all that out because it was like, I'm finally at the threshold of doing this thing that has plagued me for 10 years. And I have the support of my peers, which I mean, I think what people saw in that moment that is much bigger than what I did is they saw that there's this pursuit, this sport that, yes, it's competitive, but there's so much camaraderie in it. And the progression of it is dependent on a collective effort. And so what they saw was like, whoa, that seems cool. I feel like a lot of kids saw that. Like, this seems cool. Like, you skate with your friends, you compete against them, but they cheer you on.

30:53Tony Hawk:and you can do stuff that no one's ever done. I don't know. I, you know, I hope that that was the bigger takeaway from that moment. Well, this is crazy to me. So I, okay, so I'm not, obviously I'm not like Sam. I'm not a skater. I didn't, yeah, but I paid attention to this just because everybody did at that moment. It was cool. I had always assumed just because I was like, didn't really look that much into it, to be honest. But I just always assumed that I knew nobody had ever done it kind of like in competition or visibly. I didn't know you had never done it in practice. not even close so the the gap between like kind of the expected objective result which would have been you break your rib or worse um and then like the glory of of actually pulling it off in this moment that doesn't even make sense to me that blows my mind that you even tried it like what was the what was the thought process oh the reason i tried it i'll tell you the reason i tried it is because it was the best trick event we had 20 minutes my best trick at the time was a very old 720, which means that your body does a double spin 720 and your board does a 900.

31:58Tony Hawk:That's what, that's what the very all means. I had made that once in my life. And so I, I was like, that's my best trick, right? I did it. I did it halfway into the event. I didn't expect to be able to make it even possibly. So the fact that I did it, I didn't really have anywhere to go. Um, and if I remember correctly the the the on-site announcer not the not the on-air announcer but the on-site announcer dave duncan who has been announcing skate competitions since the 80s he he called me out he's like let's see one of those 900 attempts tony and i was like dude like all the things really you know i can't do it you know i've never haven't done it but i thought yeah why not that's that is the next stage of what I want to do.

32:52Tony Hawk:And I tried, my first couple were just for the crowd. It was just more like, look here, this is what it looks like to spin two and a half times around. Cause I can, I can bail out of them safely. It's when I really start to commit to them is when they start getting dangerous. And I would say within my probably like fifth attempt, something clicked that every attempt was consistent. usually we're skating on these rickety ramps they're you know one wall is kind of vert one wall's over vert they're not that wide like you know this was state-of-the-art half pipe that we had never really been able to ride in those years and I felt like wow my speed is consistent my spin is consistent like before I would get maybe one good try out of five and I had to commit to that one good try.

33:46Tony Hawk:And now all the tries were good. So I guess I can commit again. I thought, you know, somewhere around the sixth attempt, I thought, all right, I'm going to commit to these landings and see how it goes. You know, I knew that the time was up. I thought we were off air because they said, you have 20 minutes. So I figured, okay, that's the live feed, right? But that wasn't the incentive for this. The incentive for this was to finally get past this milestone or this hurdle that had plagued me for so long. So when I finally made it, you know, I knew that it wasn't part of the competition. I didn't think it was on air to live TV.

34:26Tony Hawk:It was just finally this relief. That's what you saw. It was just like, oh. And my first thought was, I never have to do this again. I'm free. I'm free from this burden. I'm free of this. Little did I know, watch what you wish for, because little I know, everywhere I went in the following years, people were like, do a 900. Wait, so were you able to just do 900s from then on? I couldn't do them occasionally, but they always took several tries and they didn't always work out. Sometimes I would just get exhausted and it didn't work or the ramp is too slippery or whatever. Dude, Sean,

35:03Sam Parr:you should see it now. Now there's kids that would do like back-to-back. What's after 900? 10? 1020?

35:09Tony Hawk:they do 900 they do back to back 900s yeah um one kid did a kickflip body barrel 900 you know he's got a kickflip in the middle of the 900 is this like a roger banister now they know it's possible or like is the gear better i mean that's what it was always and but that is the the through line of skateboarding we we keep building upon what we saw um which is exactly what I did. But the era that I grew up in, a 360 was the most you could spin. And then Mike McGill did the 540. And then I did a 720. And then 14 years passed in between that and a 900. So I discovered you through your video game. I used to play it every day after school, all the Dreamcast.

35:53I loved that thing. That game was incredible. Can you tell the story about the video game? And as I understand it, there was like a, you know, because it's a business podcast, there was like a moment where they tried to buy you out or like buy your royalties out. Can you just tell the video game story of the Tony Hawk first game?

36:07Tony Hawk:Well, I mean, you're talking about my first million. That's where it came from, without question. Well, the story of the game, it started actually more around 1997. I got a call from a video game designer, I would say more like a coder, who said, I worked on this engine for skateboarding. I want to see if you would go pitch it with me as a game to publishers and console manufacturers. And I was all in. I mean, I loved, you know, I was an arcade kid. There was an arcade at the skate park. And the last game that had been released up to that moment was Skate or Die for Commodore 64. So we're years past that.

36:59Tony Hawk:we were coming into home consoles more now and and this what he had it was on a laptop it was it was keyboard controls it was like this skater just kind of carving in around bowls it was it wasn't great but it was it was something and the and the graphics looked better than anything that had been previously released so i went with him to meetings we met nintendo we met a few software publishers and just no takers i mean it was almost embarrassing the conversations that we were having with these people because it was like i remember one one guy said skateboarding isn't even popular why would a skateboarding video game be popular was this before the 900 yeah yeah this is like this is like 97 ish and i didn't have a good answer to that and and And this guy that I was working with got really frustrated.

37:52Tony Hawk:And he just said, look, I got to find a job. I don't think this is it. I don't think this is what's happening. And I kind of agreed with him. Like, I don't really want to go to these pitch meetings either because they're just kind of degrading. And he said, but I do remember the last thing he said to me. He said, I feel like your name is now planted in the video game world as someone who would like to work on a game or do a game. and if someone does one, they'll probably call you. And I was like, sure. And about a year later, I got a call from Activision and they said, we heard you're working on a game.

38:29Tony Hawk:And I was like, I'm not, but I want to. And they said, well, we are. We are working on a game that is skateboarding and we would like you to come see it and see if you want to be involved. And I went up to Activision. They had just released, what was it called? Apocalypse with Bruce Willis. like literally featuring the the likeness and voice of bruce willis which was kind of a that was a new thing were they big and they said the game no the company activision no now they're huge i mean their their biggest hit before that was pitfall okay but was it like dozens or hundreds of employees more like dozens wow um they had just been taken over bobby kotick actually just just took over the company and i think bought it for much less than they ever expected and they were just trying to make something new happen um and like i said i mean you're talking about pitfall that was like that was mid 80s the good thing about that was that they were open to kind of anything they didn't have this cookie cutter approach that this is how we make popular games they have to be first person shooters they have but you know they didn't have the call of duty mindset um so they were willing to let us kind of go crazy with a skate game so i went up there and the very they handed me a controller and a modified playstation and the first version of what became thps that i got to play was bruce willis on a skateboard with a gun strapped to his back doing all-aizing kickflips across the desert and it was amazing i mean it was it was like as soon as i did i was intuitive the controls were intuitive i was like i said i was doing i was doing method errors um no you weren't bruce willis was doing yeah method yeah he was and i thought this is this could be the coolest thing ever um for skateboarders and like everyone told me at the time skateboarding was not popular but I set out to make a skateboarding game that hardcore skaters themselves would appreciate

40:41Sam Parr:that was it that was my goal it was awesome like I don't know if you know this Sean but all the levels they were those are real like skate spots like when I moved to San Francisco I was like I saw third in army on Tony Hawk's pro skater I gotta go skate it or like that's how I got introduced to like Goldfinger and like a lot of these bands that was awesome and then like Like, you know, Alyssa Steamer, Andrew Reynolds, Jeff Rowley, like all these skaters that were on there, they were like my guys now. It created a whole thing. It was pretty wild because it was like authentic to like the skater nerds could talk about it.

41:12Sam Parr:But then like anyone was into it. It was pretty crazy. You found that sweet spot where the hardcore, you know, enthusiast respects it, but it's broad enough where a guy like me who's never skateboarded, didn't know these are all after real parks. I just could use it and have fun, right? It's like a Pixar movie where it has two different people can watch it and both enjoy it, but at two totally different levels.

41:34Tony Hawk:Yeah, and I didn't really expect it to resonate with non-skaters. I knew it was a fun game because I had played video games my whole life. But I also knew that it was niche and skateboarding was still kind of more alternative and whatever you want to say. But I will say that I got lucky in all kinds of ways. But one way was I had just done a couple of big marketing campaigns, promotions for brands that I believe in. But their campaign was cheesy in terms of how it represented skateboarding. Because they wanted, you know, it was Madison Avenue and they had their take on what skateboarding was. And I just went along because I'm finally getting paid, you know, to do something with skateboarding.

42:23Tony Hawk:And I, but I didn't feel like it, it had skateboarders integrity in mind or they didn't really care about it. And so I told myself, if I get any more big deals from big companies, I'm going to, I'm going to demand that I have final approval over what goes out. that was a daring move at that time because skateboarding was still you know it was x games but everyone else knew better of how to do commercials and campaigns and stuff and so the very first contract i signed with that approval demand was activision and like i said they were kind of throwing everything against the wall so they said okay we'll we'll trust him and then as As the game started to get developed, as it started, there was kind of a buzz in the air about it.

43:17Tony Hawk:I actually, I mean, it's been a long time, so I'm not getting in trouble anymore, but I burned copies of it from my friends while we were developing it. So like a few of my friends have beta versions of THPS and I actually modified their PlayStation so they could play it because I wanted honest feedback from real skaters. This is before we actually chose the characters. and they would let other people play it and prominent skaters. And at some point there was a buzz in the skate industry about the game. They just called it the game. And I knew that we were onto something if hardcore skaters are excited to go buy a console to play this game.

44:01Tony Hawk:And then as Activision started to, as we were getting close to the release date, they started sending it to um game review magazines you know media outlets whoever would would pay attention and started getting insane feedback i mean they were getting reviews of like 9.0 and you know perfect 10 whatever and right before the release they called me and said we want to offer you a buyout of future royalties um so what does that mean they said we want to offer you half a million dollars and then you won't get royalties going forward at that time in my life someone saying a half a million dollars sounded like a half a gazillion dollars like i had never heard anyone speak those words unless they're talking about some fantastical person that we will never meet but i had just bought a new house i had got a i got a mortgage that I could finally afford.

45:04Tony Hawk:I had some decent prospects with sponsorships, with a competition. I was still competing. And I thought, now I'm going to let it ride. Like, why not? And that's how I made my first million.

45:21Sam Parr:Do you remember, or can you recall the day after the first game or a few games in or a few years in where you started making money where you're like, oh, wow, life is different now because of this game?

45:33Tony Hawk:Sure, yeah. I would say definitely after the second release where things exploded with interest. And also just in terms, because of that, people knew my name more in the general public. And then suddenly I was getting offers to do bigger campaigns. I mean, I was getting invited to red carpet premieres, you know, just random stuff that made no sense to me. It was exciting, but it was also just kind of like, this is a weird level of fame that I never expected or even wanted. But I will tell you that when the fourth game was released, if I have this right, I had lunch with my connection at Activision.

46:19Tony Hawk:I actually went up to LA. It's like, I really want to talk to you about the game and the future of it. And fourth game just got released. It got to be in the top 10 sales right away. and he said, the first three are still in the top 10. So at that time, four out of the top 10 games were THPS. And I said, what does that even mean? And he's like, this is what it means. And he slid a check across the table for$4.5 million.

46:47Sam Parr:Was that life-changing? Yeah. Was it the same feeling as the 900, just relief? Or this time you had some joy? I mean, it's joyous.

46:56Tony Hawk:it's, you know, I never did it for that though. So it wasn't like, oh, okay, that's it. I'm finally, I finally made it. It was nice to know that my family would not have to struggle. Today's podcast is brought to you by my friends at Mercury. They make the world's best banking product. I think you know this already. I use Mercury for all of my businesses. I think I have like maybe seven or eight businesses. We use Mercury as our business banking across all of them. And now they actually just launched a personal banking account. So I have my personal account there. I moved off of Wells Fargo and Chase.

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47:56Not many people were doing the type of thing you did. Like, you were actually, in a way, one of the first kind of influencers to have a product or a brand, right? Now, like, you know, today that's very, very common, but actually you're one of the kind of early success stories.

48:07Tony Hawk:No, that was super strange. I mean, people would talk about Tony Hawk and they're not talking about me. Even the game designers and the people who worked at Activision would be like, Like, oh, well, for the next Tony Hawk, I'm like, hi.

48:21Sam Parr:Well, it's a very strange thing because there's like Wayne Gretzky, Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, Lance Armstrong, Tony Hawk. Like that's a very, and then maybe like Kelly Slater for surfing, but it's a very strange thing I'd have to imagine. Do you guys hang out once a year? You just get together, face of the sports? Yeah. Dinner that we do. Like you put your hands in the middle,

48:42Tony Hawk:like your rings touch. Wow, yeah. That's some Illuminati. No, but my name was associated with games like jordan is you probably associate with shoes right but it was wild and and i think at some point i embraced that more i was trying to you know make it more like it's not me that's not what the but but i i'm proud of the series and i'm proud of what i brought to it and i'm proud of how it affected kids at a formative age like like you said people discovered a certain type of music they discovered a love for skateboarding i think also a fan base discovered an appreciation for skateboarding that maybe they never had and that was the that was the tipping point for for skateboarding because before that the only people that skated were that loved skating were skaters right you could not explain the nuances of a kickflip to a non-skater before 1998 they didn't care like what why are you still playing with that toy and after that it was like people tuned in and they appreciated that like there there became a reverence for rodney mullen finally you know he was like the oddball freestyle kid and all of a sudden it was like nope he created this these tricks in this language well i think one of the things that for me at least you know i don't think i ever cared about the skating but there was always something that you know i think the great athletes and the great performers transcend the sport so to me what you did was not about skating, but it was about the idea of going for it.

50:15Like, just wow, like that guy really cares. He's really going for it. He's putting, he's taking risk, you know, his courage. It's cool. There's like bigger ideas that you can attach to that you can use in other ways. And I'll give you an example. I think recently you talked about how, you know, you were skating, you broke your femur and you had this great tweet about like coming back and just trying to do a kickflip again. And then I think the way you said it was like, it was so satisfying when you finally were able to do it coming back from the injury you're older now and like this is a trick that you could have done in your sleep before but now it's hard and it was so satisfying to pull it off and you're like find your kickflip and you know i'm not skating but i could take that and i can use that i could find

50:54Tony Hawk:that right now that was inspiring yeah well i think it was more i uh i had a bad recovery when i broke my leg i my bone actually moved out of place it was it had been set with a titanium and Rod and I just got back out there too soon so I kind of sabotaged the healing eight months later I had to have a reset again and redone again so I never really even got to the kickflip stage in that first go around and then when I got a reset and I started to do a proper recovery and wait enough time when I did it it was so hard like it was so you know scary painful it was ugly like it's not the kickflip you want to promote it was just more like i did a terrible sloppy one but i did it and i think that's what i was trying to convey is like find your kickflip it doesn't have to be perfect it doesn't have to be the dream that you have set for yourself but get to that stage because then there's more to offer there's more to get to after that can you kind of give a

51:58Sam Parr:a rundown of what like the Tony Hawk empire is right now. We had Rob on, Rob Dierdick a while ago, and we've become buddies with him. And you guys seem similar where you have like, it appears as though you have like a fantasy factory. Like you have the warehouse with a ramp and you got a team there. What's the whole business now?

52:17Tony Hawk:Well, Birdhouse Skateboards is my first company that I started in 1992. I've got a Birdhouse board right now, by the way. Oh, thank you. You're keeping us alive. and then I do a lot of speaking engagements kind of like Rodney that's what Rodney's bread and butter is now and so I'm doing a lot of those we have a charity the Skate Park Project we have Hawk shoes back in the mix we have Hawk clothing as well and we do a lot of licensing we have our own video production company 900 Films who have done stuff with like liquid death um pretty much anything that you've seen of me out there Q &A all Ridge Walls stuff like that it's it's done through 900 films and and also just skate content and then I have my ramp I mean really that's the the that's the pinnacle of the office when you say I have my ramp what does that mean that's like I have I have my own half pipe yeah I have my own half pipe in the warehouse of the office the crown jewel that is like that literally when I hang up with you guys, I'm going there to skate.

53:26Tony Hawk:I'm not going there for a meeting. I'm not going there for some sort of pitch or concept. I'm going there because I want to skate.

53:33Sam Parr:But I think you've done some good angel investments too, right?

53:35Tony Hawk:Yeah. I've definitely gotten lucky in that I get to, you know, I sort of know some of the main Silicon Valley players that I've met through the years and they've invited me to invest in Some stuff that I was interested in and probably wouldn't have had a way in. What are some big ones? Nest, Blue Bottle, well, Liquid Death, but they're still trying to figure out what they're doing. Events.com, I think, is about to go public. And a bunch of others that I'm still holding on to.

54:11Sam Parr:I think DocuSign is one of them.

54:12Tony Hawk:DocuSign, yeah. That's amazing. do you you know when you when you kind of think about because it looks like you did a bunch of different business ventures some worked some didn't normal as an entrepreneur sure yeah if you think back now like what what was common about the ones that worked and what was common about the ones that didn't do you find a through line or kind of a signal there that you can now look out for more not always no I mean I would say restaurants have been the riskiest but also I can't stay away what did you do

54:45Sam Parr:or what have you done

54:46Tony Hawk:i invest well i invested in a few um some didn't work what one specifically counter burger i don't know if you guys ever been there but yeah they started a few chain they started a few in san diego and i invested in two of them and that didn't work um but currently chicken hawk is is our nashville hot chicken restaurant that's here in encinitas that i'm super proud of and it's it's you know, the menu speaks for itself. People love the vibe. The vibe is like 90s skate. We have a bunch of videos playing. I have a bunch of my sort of trophies and artifacts on display there. But I would say what has worked is if it's something that I am truly passionate about and that I can contribute in more ways than just money, those seem to be the ones that do well enough.

55:38Tony Hawk:And the people behind it. I mean, that's what it is. It's just like, you know, there's sort of a dream team of people that I know. And if they tap me to be involved in something, even if something I know nothing about, I'm in. And those don't always work either. But for the most part, their success rate is unparalleled.

55:58Sam Parr:I'm a huge Birdhouse fan. But Rob, when he was on, he was like, man, skateboarding, particularly decks, like it's a really hard business. Like the margins are small. And if I remember correctly, decks have been like$60 for like 20 years. Like the price has always been the same. They're still$60. When I was 14, they were$60. Can you tell us the origin story of it? And what was like the peak in terms of how big it was? And was it ever even good, even at its peak?

56:25Tony Hawk:Yeah, well, the first few years of Birdhouse were pretty bleak. In fact, I had a partner at the time, Per Wielander, who was also a pro skater. and we had some heavy discussions, I would say within the third or fourth year of being in business that we can't keep doing. We can't keep cutting our salary for one, but we definitely can't lose money. I got lucky that he had a business degree and he was able to keep it afloat. And then when the X Games started, we saw an uptick of interest, which actually brought us into finally being profitable around 97, 98. and then when the video game was released I do remember having this conversation with him too where I said you know we got to include our skateboards in the game as options and he said well they should be paying us and I was like they don't have any money you know they weren't throwing money around at the time and also I disagree because I feel like this could be the ultimate marketing tool once this gets out there people will know what Birdhouse is and a lot of you know some of the skaters in the game were Birdhouse writers, of course, but also because I believe they were some of the best at the time.

57:38Tony Hawk:And that is what happened. When that game got released, our sales went ballistic. I mean, those were the heyday of Birdhouse in terms of recognition, in terms of the consumers wanting it. Probably 99 to 2005-ish was sort of the peak. and but i've kept it going all through the years um even through the harder times you know through being creative doing licensing um trying to supplement the paying writers through other licensing of my own um because i still love it you know even it's not it's yes rob right it is not a profitable business um but i don't care hey i don't know if you saw this story about uh Novak Djokovic.

58:30I think it was Djokovic. It was either him or one of the other top players. And he was in a slump or he was kind of falling out of love with the sport. And his coach or whatever had a great conversation with him, which was like, you know, when you got into this and you were at your peak, you know, was it because you were winning? Was it because you wanted these titles? What was the thing? He's like, no, I just love to swing the racket. And he's like, do you still love to swing the racket? He's like, I love to swing the racket. He's like, well, then you should just go out there and swing the racket.

58:58and he like got back on form and went back to the top and kind of like rediscovered the love of the game. Did you have moments like you said, like after this podcast, I'm going to go skate.

59:07Tony Hawk:It seems like you really loved. I never lost my interest in skating. Not once. In fact, at some point, all of the other stuff I was doing, especially when the video game was hitting, was just distracting from my actual skate time. And I had to schedule it out. And I remember like there was a video that these guys wanted me to be in. And I thought it was important. It's like a more core video, but it was like they were offering me to have a little section in it. And I was looking at my schedule and I was like, I have from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m. next Thursday. That's all I can give you. And I remember thinking like this kind of sucks.

59:52Tony Hawk:That's how I have to schedule my skating. It used to be I just did it when I wanted to. I learned to shift that priority through later years. I mean, in all kinds of ways, mostly to spend time with my family, but also to find time to skate in a meaningful way, not just for a video.

1:00:09Sam Parr:Hey, I want to ask you about internet culture because I grew up watching 411 videos. And basically, Sean, before the internet, there was magazines like Thrasher and then there was Transworld. and they would put out, I don't think Thrasher did it, but these companies in Audio and Birdhouse would put out these skate videos quarterly, annually, or they would have like monthly video. It was basically a video magazine and you'd have to go to the skate shop and you'd have to buy it and it was all word of mouth and it was awesome because you start falling in love with these skaters because they would show personality.

1:00:46Sam Parr:Like it was almost like a combination of skate video, music video and home video. And then eventually, occasionally, it'd be stunts, which is how Jackass kind of came to be. But it was really cool because it was like sort of like vlogging before YouTube came around. And it was very impactful to me. And then there was like zines like Thrasher, which is a magazine that's still around. They were they were pretty amazing. And it's sort of like when YouTube it was first eBombs World and then YouTube. But when it started getting popular, I remember thinking, this is just skate videos. This is like what I like.

1:01:18Sam Parr:It It was so interesting how this subculture, DIY culture, it didn't directly become mainstream, but it definitely influenced the thing that influenced the thing. Do you know what I mean?

1:01:28Tony Hawk:Oh, for sure. I think that, yeah, skating, it was just a bunch of ragtag creative people trying to find an outlet. And it's funny, you said zine. Someone just gave me this. This is my zine I created in 1982. That's awesome. And my friend had one copy of it. And that's what we did. Like, this is before, you know, there were no skate magazines. So I just created one. So what's in that? What would be in it? Mostly pictures of my friends skating at our local park, Del Mar. I even, like, faked some ads. Like, I made an indie ad of independent writers. Indy didn't pay me anything to do this. In fact, my brother worked at a newspaper at the time.

1:02:13Tony Hawk:I used all of their resources to make these happen. And then you would distribute them? I think I put them on display at the skate park because at that time, Del Mar Skate Ranch was the only park open in Southern California. So I just put them on display and I think that I sold them for 50 cents. And at one point, the skate park manager said, hey, do you want the money from your magazines? And I had like$30. And I was so excited.

1:02:42Sam Parr:Well, did you meet any of the early internet company guys? like YouTube or anything like that? Because it seems like there would have been a lot of crossover between this kind of underground world.

1:02:53Tony Hawk:I'd say the one guy I met in those early days was Kevin Rose because he was a hardcore skater when he was doing Dig. And he actually got me to go to my first Comic-Con because he wanted to do an interview with me. And it's funny because I live in San Diego and I avoided Comic-Con like the plague because of all the traffic. But he and I got close. and he's the one who led me into Bluebottle. That's a good hookup. Hey, you said you do like corporate speaking or you do speaking gigs. What's the main message you try to get across at those? Well, I kind of, it depends on what it is. If it's a keynote, I'll take people through my story for the most part and try to give some examples of turning points and decision-making.

1:03:36Tony Hawk:But also I fine tune it to what their theme is. Right. So I'll pick specific stories to lean into. depending on what their messaging is. And then sometimes I just do what they call fireside chats, like with a mediator. I'll take questions from the audience. That's more fun for me because you can go different places with that and on different tangents.

1:04:00Sam Parr:Is there anything that you're going to look forward to now in terms of business or in terms of accomplishments that you haven't done yet? What's keeping you up at night?

1:04:09Tony Hawk:Oh, wow. um yeah i i don't have like lofty goals really i um just trying to you know keep it moving um i'm still skating so i think that that's probably even as as ridiculous as it sounds when i'm closing in on 60 here that i still want to learn some new tricks but like i i tried a trick yesterday and i'm gonna go back at it today it's not it's not some high impact spinning move but but it's something that gives me joy and incentive. But in terms of more life stuff, I mean, we have a grandchild now and that is, I understand why people gush about being grandparents because that is the most fun thing ever.

1:04:57Tony Hawk:And so I want to make time to be available to him and also to still provide for our family. So I'm trying to find that. That's always the challenge, but I'm up for it.

1:05:09Sam Parr:I've been kind of depressed over the last 12 months when I go out and skate. Now it takes so much longer to warm up, like to get my hips warmed up. It's crazy.

1:05:18Tony Hawk:And then every time I tell you, well, when you, when you, when you close in on 58, some days you just don't warm up. You don't get there. That's, that's, that's what you have to look forward to. Just pack it up. No, you don't pack it up. You just have to take what you had, like whatever you got that day, you have to take and be like, all right, that's all I can get.

1:05:36Sam Parr:But I used to go and I'm like, I have to try one new trick. And now I can't get hurt because I got to lift my kids up later today. And so I feel pressure. It takes forever to get my hips activated and warmed up. It sucks, man. It sucks. It's the only time that I've felt old is skating.

1:05:53Tony Hawk:Well, I feel you there. But also, I do have some techniques for warming up pre-skating that have helped me in my last five years, for sure, that I can share with you. um but maybe maybe this is the next the next thing this is the next Tony Hawk Pro Skater it's a skating for aging stretching a skating for aging video series that you create DVD straight to VHS maybe and we just distribute it to the tens tens of people out there who are you know 40 plus skaters that are trying to still keep it well one of my friends a pro skater was a pro skater in the 90s he actually asked me like do you have any tips for sciatica and i sent him all my stretches i do before i skate like i just set my phone up and it's like here's this one this one make sure your palms are out dude i'm not joking i need that all right here well you want to you want to see one i'll show you where i know all right give it to us this is this is the the first one can you see me right here yeah all right yep you get on one knee leaning forward everything is straight through your back, even your neck.

1:06:59Tony Hawk:You're trying to push upward with your head and your neck. Chin down. And then you hit hands out. Twist them out. Keep them twisting. Keep pushing out like this. Keep all that tension for 30 seconds. Are you leaning forward? Everything. You continue to lean forward. Do the other one. 30 seconds. But for your hips, you want to do one outward too. Like this.

1:07:25Sam Parr:Oh, there you go. Okay.

1:07:28Tony Hawk:and then 30 seconds of that.

1:07:31Sam Parr:That's like the quickest warm-up. I'm going to go to Riverside, the skate park, and sometimes I go to Tompkins, which, Sean, in New York City, Tompkins, it's a little hardcore. The guys can be rough. They're really good. I'm going to do that, and I'll be like, guys, Tony told me. It's okay.

1:07:48Tony Hawk:I don't know if that's going to get you the leverage that you think it is. He's going to say it either way. I tend to do them outside of the skate space, and then I come in more warmed up like that.

1:07:59Sam Parr:I'm already wearing a helmet. So I'm older than everyone. I'm wearing a helmet. So I already get like - Join the club. I already get a little look. Why is Tony's foundation building huge stretching areas next to all the parks that they're building?

1:08:13Tony Hawk:But I feel you in that, like when I go to a skate park, I usually go before 10 a.m. because that's the time when it's crusty old dudes, full pads and they're not, they're stoked you're there. They're not going to give you a hard time or anything. Or it's parents with little kids. So that's, to me, those are the prime hours, like 8 to 11 a.m. at a skate park.

1:08:38Sam Parr:And Sean, one of the fun, I like having Sean here because I can explain skating. One of the fun parts when you're a kid is when you do street skating, you go to like corporate buildings and you jump down the stairs and handrails and stuff. And you always get the police call. And so part of the culture is kind of like avoiding getting that done to you and like the confrontation, I don't do that at all anymore because I'm like, I don't want someone to take a photo where I look stupid. I don't want a confrontation. So I'm softer than cream cheese now. It's only skate parks. Also, I don't want to look...

1:09:09Tony Hawk:But to your advantage, there are way more skate parks than ever. Yeah, it's way better. Street obstacles. So you're living in the best timeline for that.

1:09:18Sam Parr:But that was like the most fun as a kid was skating until you get the police called and running from the cops. and going to a different... No, I had so many tickets. What would a ticket be? Like trespassing?

1:09:29Tony Hawk:I got a ticket for skating on the boardwalk of the beach in Oceanside for 150 bucks in 1990. That's ridiculous. And I paid it to avoid going to court to try to fight it because I was like, I guess you can't skate on the boardwalk. I thought this was California. I thought we were living the dream. Have you been arrested? no I got I got a speeding ticket in Georgia and this is around the same time like 92 ish and I mean I was I literally rented a Geo Metro I got a speeding ticket for going 70 in a 55 and the guy looked at my license and immediately like his whole vibe changed because it was from California and he's like oh I'm taking this guy down and he goes well you're from California I can't write you a ticket you're gonna have to come to the the sheriff's department and put me in a holding cell wow for 25 over and then well he just he just said like he couldn't process whatever it was whatever his excuse was he couldn't process he couldn't process a driver's license from california um and i had to pay cash to get out and i was like well how do i get cash and luckily there was someone with me who was one of our team riders and i handed him my atm card i I said, just go get as much as you can out of an ATM, please, right now.

1:10:54Tony Hawk:And so he had to drive into this little town, get whatever I could get,$200, come back, and I paid the fine and they let us go. I think you got hustled, my friend. It felt like a shakedown. Yeah.

1:11:05Sam Parr:It's like when you're at a strip club and they want to give you a lap dance, they take you straight to the ATM and then you go in the back.

1:11:11Tony Hawk:I mean, it wasn't, but to answer your question, was I in jail? Kind of? Well, no, you were. Well, don't take that as a yes. I gotta say we've done like a thousand episodes of this podcast you are one of my favorite guys to ever have on you are you're oh I appreciate that such a fun hang super humble um just a good time and I really appreciate this like this was a lot of fun for us yeah thank you thanks for having me and I know and Sam I want to compliment you for hiding how exciting this is for you I know you you let a little bit of it out but like Sam is like you know he's gonna have to call a doctor after this it's lasting for more than four hours here So Sam, good job.

1:11:49Keep doing those 360 flips.

1:11:51Sam Parr:Don't lose them. I'm going to try and do them until I'm 50. And it was, you know, you're my hero as a kid. And I still look up to you. So I definitely was giddy on the inside talking to you. So I really appreciate it. I appreciate it. Badass. Well, thank you. That's it. That's the pod.

1:12:14All right, let's take a quick break. I want to tell you about Marketing School. It is a podcast that is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network, and it is run by Neil Patel and Eric Su. And these guys are both marketers who are running businesses. And so if you want real world tactics from practitioners who are actually out there in the field doing it, this is the podcast for you. Check it out wherever you get your podcasts.