SHOTS FIRED!! OPEN AI Explodes

0:009-1-1, what's the state of your emergency? Hey, the tech industry got flipped upside down over the weekend. I was staring at my phone the whole time. I haven't been so invigorated by any story in like five years. My wife might divorce me because I haven't looked up from my phone. I've just been on Twitter all weekend. Sam, how are you doing right now with this open AI story? It's been awesome. The real winner through all this is Twitter. Twitter's been great for this, right? Twitter just thrives through all types of controversy. Twitter, aka the Silicon Valley group chat Has been awesome Awesome all weekend It's been awesome

0:42I thought there was a chance that you were just like Out duck hunting and I would come on today And you'd be like, what happened? So, you know, I thought there was a small chance I'm a Sam Altman fan I've loved this guy We've talked about him for years I'm a big fan of his. This is, and I love drama. I love gossip. I read TMZ every day. And so now I've got TMZ on Twitter. It's awesome. Of course, we're talking about OpenAI and Sam Altman getting fired on, we're recording this Monday. He was fired like Friday, but there's like news happening in real time, like constantly, right? Exactly. Like just as of an hour ago, there's news.

1:18So we don't know exactly where this is going to all land. We're going to try to get this out as soon as we can. We had a whole other episode planned today. We canceled it. we just said let's do let's do this right now what's our reaction what is our reaction to the open ai stuff that's going on all right sam where do you want to start i think we should take this character by character go through all the players that were involved and i think we should give them kind of a a grade and they can get it you know if they get an a or an a plus that means they came out a big winner here you can get a c you can get an f i think we should grade all the players of how this has turned out for them in the 48 hours so far that this happened.

1:58Do you want to first give a little timeline summary recap? Yeah, so I think you should do it because you've been paying attention to it more closely. But it all started Friday at like what, 3 o 'clock? Exactly. Friday afternoon, I get a text message from Ben Levy. He just says, wow, Sam Altman, what the fuck? Holy shit. What? But he doesn't say the news yet. The worst. and then he's like sam altman out but he like misspells out then he like does the stars not out out of what where is he out of it was unfathomable that sam altman would get fired right like uh and the same way that you know i don't expect to wake up and see that elon musk has been fired from tesla uh you don't think you don't wake up and think that sam altman's gonna get fired from open ai which is the hottest private company probably the most important startup in the world that has gone from zero to 90 billion in valuation in just a couple of years here.

2:52Yeah, it was shocking. It started because OpenAI, I don't even know, our guy put this in military time. So what's this, 248. At 248, OpenAI announced a leadership transition. They said that Sam Altman is departing as CEO because he was not consistently candid in his communications with the board and their CTO, a lady named Mira. She has become the intermittent CEO. A little over an hour later, Sam Altman said, I loved my time at OpenAI. It was transformative for me personally and that he's excited for what's next. Well, let's pause there because the first phase here is wild speculation. So the speculation is, oh my God, shock and speculation.

3:31So I can't believe this happened. Like an April Fool's joke. It must have been something bad, dude. He must be, was there fraud? Did they unleash AGI? Was there a huge privacy leak? that is causing him to have to step down because there's a security issue that he overlooked. There's this accusation from his sister about sexual assault when they were kids. Is it because of that? And everybody assumes it's got to be the worst. Until one hour later, or when is it? One hour later? Yeah, I think a couple hours later, Greg, who was the chairman and was essentially his co-founder of OpenAI, the lead technical guy at the time in the early days, sends this message to the team.

4:18Hi, everyone. Super proud of what we built starting in my apartment eight years ago. We've been through tough times and great times together, accomplishing so much, doing what should have been impossible. Based on today's news, comma, I quit. Wishing you all the best. With the I lowercase. The I lowercase. And so then, now we enter phase two. Phase two is, wait, Greg's on the board. Wait, Greg is a stand-up guy. If it was something really bad, Greg would not have just quit with him. This must not be as bad. Is there some kind of power play, jealousy, a coup that's happening here? Is Sam being wrong?

4:56And instantly, I see the court of public opinion shift. And the court of public opinion says, look, if Sam did something really effed up, Greg would not have just followed him out the door and quit, unless Greg was in on it. So still a possibility. But more likely, it seems like Greg doesn't stand for this reasoning. So maybe we don't stand for this reasoning. And all of a sudden, you see the Sam army come forward. People who are startups from YC when he was the president of YC saying, look, I don't know what happened here, but Sam is like, he went to bat for me. So many stories came out that were all the same variety.

5:35I don't know if you saw these. They were all the same variety. It was a startup saying, we had a time when we were screwed. I emailed Sam to be like, hey, here's what's going on, blah, blah, blah. Sam quickly replied with just something like, hey, make sure you're communicating or just do your best. There's only what you can control. But behind the scenes, he went to war for us. We found out later that he called all of our investors, threatened to dangle them over the balcony if they screwed us, and he saved our ass and didn't even mention it, that he was doing that. Just in the background, he went through and saved us.

6:09and we found out later that this was true. So I don't know what happened here, but I ride with Sam. Well, an equally big deal is one time I had a customer service question and I DM'd him and he replied and he solved it for me. Exactly. And a lot of it was he replied fast. He replied when he didn't have to. He vouched for us when he didn't have to. Man, he did. By the way, that was out of joke. He did reply to me. I had air. I couldn't figure something out. I was like, I'm just going to DM Sam. And he replied with like the, he solved my problem. But yeah, the guy seems like a great guy. And his brother comes out and says to all the people that are gleefully hating today, please know you're betting against the wrong guy.

6:49Okay. So that kind of foreshadows act two. Act two is the weekend. So Friday, you get the crazy news dump. Now the weekend, you have news that people start even inside the company start to stand with Sam because they say, if there was something bad, tell us. what it is you don't have to say publicly say it internally what does it mean he wasn't candidly consistent or consistently candid with the board about what did he lie what did he lie about how bad was it uh you're taking our leader out our two leaders out now um and wait who is the board oh the board is like this combination of of of people who have no they didn't build this they don't even own equity in this but they're deciding our future because the board is basically one legit technologist, this guy Adam D 'Angelo, who was the co-founder, CTO of Facebook back in the day, and then he co-founded Quora after that.

7:47So you have Adam, legitimate character in Silicon Valley, and then you have a bunch of other people that nobody's ever heard of. One of them is like that actor's wife. She's like an academic somewhere, never had a job. Justin Gordon-Levitt. Yeah, exactly. The guy from Inception. Great. The guy from Inception, not Leonardo DiCaprio. That's the first. And not even him. He's not the one on the board. And not even him. Exactly. So you got her. You got a couple of the characters here. But nobody that is, again, no equity, no skin in the game. And no track record building or operating complex companies.

8:31So that seems a bit weird. They're getting no data. And rumors come out. Sam's going to have a new company by Monday. Sam and Greg are going to create an OpenAI competitor by Monday, which is just like a pretty badass threat to throw down. And so once the team starts to say, they start to tweet out these emoji hearts saying, I basically, I stand with Sam. I don't know all the details, but if you don't come out with any details explaining why you did this, I'm going to probably leave with Sam. And so the board starts scrambling and they start trying to renegotiate with Sam to maybe bring him back.

9:07And his conditions are like, cool, I'll come back. Y 'all all got to resign and clear my name. You got to bring back Greg. And we're going to put a new board together. That's like the board of my choosing. The board doesn't want to do all that. And so they're kind of stalling. They're going back and forth. He goes back to the office with a guest pass on his badge. And he says, this is the last time I'll ever enter this office with a guest pass and then at the last minute we hear the news the the news come out it looks like Sam's coming back and then Sunday night it hits there's a new CEO in town Emmett Shear my former boss the former CEO of Twitch is now suddenly these the guy for open AI Sam is out he's in shock that that was like you know what I thought was the end and before I went to sleep thinking, okay, we're going to record this pod.

10:01I thought that was the end. And it releases an announcement on Twitter saying basically like, hey, hey, I'm here. Here's my 30-day plan. I wake up this morning and there's more news. 600 of the 700 employees of OpenAI have signed a petition saying, if you don't bring Sam and Greg back and all resign, we're all leaving. 600 of 700. it was actually 500 as of 3 a.m and then it got to 650 as of right before recording this basically 100 people woke up and also signed the pledge including by the way the guy who was supposedly behind the entire coup Ilya the main technologist the scientist who was on the board who was the guy who sent Sam a Google meet link and was like hey can you join this right quick and Sam's like sure let me just pop out let me just get my microphone and he pops on and then gets fired the whole board is sitting there and they executed his ass Ilya comes out and signs the pledge and says I'm sorry for what I did what?

11:07and he even tweets out he goes like I want to get the band back together and make it right I'm sorry I regret what I did and you know we'll try to right the wrong and then on top of that before that thing happened Satya Nadella the CEO of Microsoft comes out and says hey we still support OpenAI sure look forward to meeting the new guy Emmett which is just a really funny way of putting it because apparently they were not consulted and only told one minute before the firing happened that one minute before the press release went out that Sam was fired so they were blindsided even though they put they've agreed to fund 10 billion dollars into this company and own 49 % of it and then he says oh and good news Sam and Greg now work for Microsoft and this is just like the ultimate checkmate move because Sam I don't know if you know this but Microsoft not only do they own 49 % not only do they provide all of the funding which OpenAI requires to exist they can pull that at any minute now because a lot of that funding is in compute credits so basically server credits but not only that they also have the license to all the technology.

12:24They have the model, the weights, the inference. They have everything that they need to basically hand Sam and Greg all of the code and be like, you don't have to start from scratch. Here you go. And so, in the end, they got everything. They got everything they wanted. They got the team, the technology, the money. They got everything. The most interesting part of all this, though, is the characters. Because this is, everyone keeps saying this is succession in real life. And it is. It's one of the greatest things to happen in Silicon Valley in the last 15 years. It's a beautiful storyline. We thought Sam Bankman was a gift from the gods in terms of podcasting.

13:04This is actually, I think, more interesting. It's not played out yet. So the story is still going to keep going. But let's talk about the characters. Let's talk about Sam Altman first. We talked about him. Well, we've talked about him a ton. But this guy, basically, his background is he's from St. Louis, my hometown. Give a shout out to St. Louis. Then he moved to Silicon Valley to join Y Combinator at the age of 19 or 20. He started a company that had mild success. I think it raised a fair amount of money and sold for$50 million, of which he walked away with$5 million at the age of 21. And using that$5 million, he parlayed that into hundreds of millions by investing in things like Airbnb, Dropbox, things like that, because he worked at Y Combinator.

13:42Eventually, he becomes president of Y Combinator at the age of 27. Two quotes from Paul Graham about Tim Alvin. And remember, Paul Graham is somebody who invested in Dropbox, invested in Airbnb, invested in, you know, he has seen the founders. He knows everybody in Silicon Valley. He's met Mark Zuckerberg. He's met all these guys. And so for him to be most impressed by Sam Altman means something. And he says, Sam Altman has it. You could parachute him into an island full of cannibals and come back five years later and he'd be the king. That's the first one. and then he goes the second one he goes I met Sam Altman many years ago when he was 19 years old he was a Stanford dropout which by the way Harvard or Stanford dropout is the number one resume that is the number one item if you go to Harvard or Stanford and you don't drop out you have intentionally chosen to not have the number one credential you can have which is Harvard dropout or Stanford dropout so he says within meeting within three minutes of meeting him I remember thinking, ah, so this is what Bill Gates must have been like when he was 19.

14:52In three minutes. I don't know what Sam Elvin did in three minutes, but I would love to know. I am fascinated by people who are special. They're kind of the freaks. I love it in sports, but you can see it. You can see LeBron James at age 17 was like a freak of nature. Yeah, he had like the equivalent of a 42-inch vert. Whatever he did, it was like an eighth-grader dunking. There's another story that's kind of remarkable i thought this kind of tells you about this guy's character so sam altman's gay he came out when he was like 15 or 16 i think you said something about he's from your hometownst louis there's some story which is that he came out and not only did he just come out as a teenager which alone takes some bravery he then like hosted like a pep rally or something like that he went to john burroughs so inst louis where i'm from every most all high schools are either Catholic or some type of Christian, whatever.

15:43And he came out as being gay, but he like went to a, or I think he created like a club, some type of like gay club and at a Catholic school, they're like, no, we're not, we're not about this. And so I think he led like a walkout, like a school walkout. That takes a lot of like a little leadership. Yeah, he's a very courageous guy. And then, but for like the last 15 years, pre-open AI, he was, even though he was president of Y Combinator, he was still a little bit behind the scenes. And even though that he was running this huge incubator and he's a powerful guy, It still felt like, well, why would Paul Graham say this about this kid who still has yet, still has unfulfilled potential?

16:18A couple of years ago, he starts working on OpenAI. And then all of a sudden, we're like, oh, all right. The guy was plotting and he's played the long game. Now we understand why everyone looks up to this guy. And OpenAI has basically taken over the tech industry and went from zero to one of the biggest companies in the world in, what, five years or something like that? Yeah, exactly. So he leaves the most prestigious job in Silicon Valley, which is president of YC. He's dean of Harvard, dean of our Harvard. He quits suddenly because the nonprofit research organization he co-founded, he felt like that was the right opportunity.

16:53He did that. Suddenly, it was surprising. I remember at the time I had the thought, I think I've said this before here, which is that I had the thought like, if Sam Altman just quit being the president of YC to go join open AI, how can I justify coming into work tomorrow? Like, why would I not also go to open AI? Whatever open AI is, I knew nothing at the time, but all I knew is if that one of the smartest guys in the world went and did that, maybe I should go do that too. And honestly, that would have been the greatest career move I ever made if I had done that because, you know, open AI quickly, you know, changed its structure from non-profit to becoming a capped for-profit thing and became worth nearly$100 billion in a short period of time, creating ChatGPT, the fastest growing product of all time, to get to 100 million users faster than anyone.

17:43And let's go to his two partners, because when he started it, there's a bunch of weird stories that aren't entirely out in the open, but it seems like there was something where Elon Musk funded the business or helped fund the business at first. He invested$40 million, and he also helped to recruit and convince a few of Sam's co-founders to join. Is that right? That's right. So basically, when people say, okay, great, Sam's just, you drop him on an island of cannibals, he comes out king. Okay, cool. But what's his skill? What does he do? And basically, it was like, on anything about strategy or ambition, this is what Paul Graham said.

18:18He said, if there was ever a question on strategy or ambition, I default to, what would Sam do? and you know Paul Graham was like 20 years older than Sam saying that so that's kind of impressive so what did he do he basically has a conversation with Elon Musk and the two of them shared the same belief which was that artificial intelligence was going to be a big deal that we would be able to one day realize AGI which is artificial general intelligence think about it as you know super intelligence when when you know AI is generally smarter than humans and kind of everything that we, you know, most of the things that we try to do.

18:56So they both said, that's also kind of scary because we don't know what's going to happen on the other side of AGI. So we should fund research in a nonprofit that will study, you know, fund the research around this so that we can safely create AGI instead of having AGI that kills us all like the movies. So what Sam did was he hosts his dinner in Palo Alto and, you know, he gets Elon Musk there and he gets a few other smart key people. One of them was this guy, Greg, who was at the time the CTO of Stripe, which was before OpenAI, was the most impactful big startup in the world. So he gets the CTO of Stripe.

19:32He gets this guy, Ilya, who's like the lead research scientist in AI at Google. Essentially, he's kind of like one of the founding fathers of AI and deep learning. And so they get a bunch of these people around the table. And they basically, Reid Hoffman is there. And they're basically like, we need to do this. Elon basically agrees to fund 40 million dollars into the non-profit so Elon puts his money where his mouth is Sam helps recruit, put the whole deal together brings the people together, on the way home Sam's like, hey Greg, let me give you a ride back to San Francisco, so they drive back to San Francisco and what Sam says is, the first 30 minutes it's an hour long drive from Palo Alto to San Francisco he says the first 30 minutes, Greg just asked me rapid fire like 150 questions Then at the 30-minute point, he goes, okay, I've decided I'm going to do this.

20:22I'll quit Stripe and I'll join OpenAI. Whatever this thing is that you're creating, I will join it. So the next 30 minutes, they started making their plan. Like, okay, what are the first things we need to do? Which tells you something about Greg to do, again, a crazy career move like that to just have independent-mindedness and conviction in something that quickly. And tells you something about Sam's persuasiveness and ability to put this thing together. Then what Elon says is that he recruited Ilya out of Google, which was very, very hard to do. And he says it's the reason that him and Larry Page, founder of Google, don't talk anymore.

20:56He used to be friends with Larry. He used to famously, Elon didn't own a house for a period of time, and he would just crash at friends' houses. And so he would crash at Larry Page's house all the time. He says that they got into arguments about AI and that he was really worried about AI, and Larry was like tech forward and was like, no, it's going to be amazing. and um and then he says that you know he got pissed when larry called him a speciest but basically like you are you're just all about humans and elon was like what the fuck else am i supposed to be about are you not that scares me even more i'm gonna create open ai now to like defend against google which owned deep mind the number one player at the time and so uh elon basically poaches elon and sam poach ilia out of google which took a lot of money and a lot of persuasion, I believe, to get him out.

21:45And that he becomes, when he joins OpenAI, the research community who worships this guy basically followed. And they got all the top researchers to join. And that is the founding story of OpenAI. That's amazing, right? I mean, I just, this is like drama, movie drama shit. Just that dinner, that drive home. I mean, this is perfect. We're going to have to have Justin Timberlake star as one of these guys. And so this brings us to, I think, the second character that we should talk about. This guy Greg, who I believe is the unsung hero in this whole thing. Because Sam Altman is kind of like the hero.

22:20He's the hero, right? He's the CEO. He gets backstabbed. He gets wronged. He's the martyr. He had to suffer. People come out and they're all supporting Sam and sharing like it's like a funeral for Sam on Twitter the other day. He's like, oh, I remember that once Sam responded to my customer service request. Like, oh, I was on a bike once and Sam you know he he moved over in the lane so I could go by right like everybody was just sharing their favorite Sam memory and then nobody's really talking about Greg now Greg in my opinion shifted this whole fucking thing because at first it was like damn I don't know what Sam did must have been horrible blah blah blah as soon as Greg came out was like yo on this I quit and they're like Greg's the number two he's on the board he was the chairman of the board I think they're like if Greg doesn't think this was right I don't think it's right and so Greg single-handedly like shifted the perception and the narrative around this whole thing and the board didn't counteract that and so I think Greg was the real hero of this and then what I did was there's some amazing blog posts that anybody who's a real nerd about this stuff if you just really love kind of like the the lore, the canon of Silicon Valley you got to go read this Greg has blog posts up on his blog about the early days of open AI.

23:42And I think he blogged it back. The early days of open AI last week. No, it was eight years ago. This thing started a long time ago. And he talks about like, they didn't have an office. He's like, all right, just come to my apartment. And he's like, here's the four of us in our apartment. He's like, I didn't know anything about machine learning. So I did two things. Number one, I asked Ilya, what is the number one textbook about machine learning? I bought it and I studied it religiously. He's like, I read everything there was to know about deep learning and machine learning. He goes, and this is the former CTO of Stripe.

24:14He's not like a non-technical dude. He's known as like this incredible, one of these 10X or 100X engineers. And he says, I didn't know anything about deep learning. So I just dedicated myself to go read, you know, page one, chapter one of the book. And I'm going to take notes and I'm going to ask a ton of questions. he goes two while these guys were setting up their research stuff i did everything else like oh but your back looks a little uncomfortable you need a pillow oh you guys thirsty i'll go get smoothies and he's doing literally all the like intern grunt work those first few months to get them set up he's like and it basically was alternating between research would do something then research would get blocked and i would say oh what's blocking and they're like oh it's taking forever to run this training center i have to like organize this data and then greg would stay up all night and basically do the engineering because people don't realize engineering and coding is very different than AI research.

25:06And so he would do the coding that would make the researchers go faster. He built basically all of the infrastructure so that researchers could do great work. And even with GPT, there was a story like they ran the model and the output was kind of like, it was so-so. And then Greg locked himself in a room for two weeks and he came out and And suddenly GPT worked. And people were like, what the hell just happened? And he's like, I blacked out. And I did that. And so he has these great blog posts and photos of those early days that I thought was kind of amazing. So Greg was born in 89, which puts him around 34 years old now.

25:43He joined Stripe in 2010. He became CTO in 2013. So he was CTO of Stripe when he was about 24, 25 years old. And then he left Stripe to co-found OpenAI. so he was only 26, 27 when he started working on OpenAI. It's pretty amazing. These guys are freaks. Unreal. It's wild. It's unreal. And by the way, you forgot to give a grade, so Sam Altman, he's going to win no matter what in all of this. So I think he was going to get, let's say, a B+. He was going to get a B+. Why? Because you got fired. You got backstabbed by your own people. Not great. Not a great thing to happen. two they haven't said what you did but you did something right they weren't just gonna fire you for nothing so like uh you did something we don't know what it is unknown okay i can't give you an ape for that uh it looked like he was gonna get the job back which would have been great but then he didn't so ah didn't come it didn't didn't happen in the end so even though you got some some support from your team didn't happen until the microsoft thing happened which was literally imagine playing a game of chess and you're like, oh, I think I got this guy.

26:54I have a five-piece to three advantage here. His queen is out. And then you look up from the board and he's holding a Glock to your head. And that's what happened to Ilya here. Basically, it's like now he's at Microsoft. They have the license to all of the technology. They have all the training data in the world because guess what? 90 % of computers are PCs that run Windows. he has all the funding in the world he got paid I'm sure Satya had to bring Sam and Greg in before the stock market opened on Monday just to kind of like not have this be an issue for Microsoft that they got screwed here or they put a bunch of money into a lame duck and so he got everything he got the tech 600 of 700 people saying they're going to follow him there so he got the team he got the money he got the funding and he got it all in 48 hours.

27:49And they were basically like, yeah, they're going to lead a new subsidiary of Microsoft that's going to do research on AI. It's like, oh, you mean OpenAI Part 2? So now he has to walk away with an A +, right? You can't knock that. And he's got the good guy label unless they come out with some new information that shows that he did something effed up, which something has to come out. There's only three options, in my opinion, of how the story for Sam ends. option a is it's a it's an unforgivable sin i think that that is not likely but it is possible that what he's did is just well you're done option b is he goes back to open ai become ceo i think that was more likely than not going to happen i i think but option c is he stays at microsoft and i think in a decade or five years he becomes the ceo of microsoft which is now worth five trillion dollars or something at that point yeah right now trillion today yeah so he's he's gonna turn out okay so now this other guy ilia he looks like a schmuck here so he's he's a loser here he looks he looks like he gets an f he gets an f there's a little bit of likability with him where it's like oh you're just a brilliant scientist artist turn who was who was uh you were you were manipulated in here because you're just a scientist and you don't understand human interaction so if he plays we should explain one thing which is what are the possibilities of what sam did that might put sam in the wrong or illy in the right so there is what you're calling the unforgivable sin which i would say by the way not a great track record of anything being unforgivable let's say the really bad personal stuff could be the could be one reason why in which case i would say that's a completely fair reason to remove him if they did an investigation found out that that was true that they're in the right for removing him.

29:39That's defensible. But they just haven't said anything. Reason number two is safety concern. So Ilya is famously, the reason he's doing this is literally he's worried about AGI. He doesn't want the world to end. And what initially people thought was Sam says all the right things about safety but also Sam is like a capitalist. he's a entrepreneur he's a hard charging guy and he's running forward here and maybe they're saying slow down he's saying no we don't need to slow down and they're saying Sam this is too risky and he's saying no no no this is not risky we got to move forward that's what it looked like the situation was and it was made crazier by the fact that I don't know if you saw this he did an interview the day before and he said something like this he said I've been lucky to be in the room four times now.

30:33The last one was just a couple weeks ago where I saw something that pushed the veil of ignorance forward and the frontier of technology to us. It pushed the veil of ignorance away and the frontier of technology to us. So basically he's saying there's been like three or four mind-blowing moments about AI. I've been lucky enough to be in the room. The last one happened a couple weeks ago. Just wait until you see this. It's going to stun people. and so some people are like yo did they like create the monster super intelligent like did they create AGI you know has AGI been achieved internally and he like randomly posted on Reddit not long ago AGI has been achieved internally as like a joke I guess so some people said maybe they've stumbled into something and this guy's going too fast and it's you know like the scientists you know around the nuclear bomb saying no no no we gotta like destroy this thing or we gotta like slow down this is getting too crazy that would have been the other reason which would have been again defensible especially given that open ai's charter is specifically says we're not about increasing shareholder value we are about you know safely building agi to benefit all of humanity so that is their charter and if they thought this guy's moving too fast putting that at risk i would say they are completely in the right to do so if they believe that to be true the bad part is again they've come out with no evidence that that that is the case they haven't explained themselves so nobody believes them but that's true The third reason.

31:59So, you know, you have the really bad thing. You have the safety argument. And the third thing is essentially it's just a power play. They're annoyed by him. They don't feel like he listens. They feel like he's getting all the credit or he wants fame and fortune and power play. Let's get this guy out of here. And we will, we get to run and own this thing. And that's like a jealousy driven thing. And I don't know which of those is the most true. I don't know what you think, but, uh, you know, it seems like. None of those are perfect explanations. I'll say what I think maybe later, but it's number three, I think.