In short
This MTGM EXTRA bonus episode (with Vogue Williams and Joanne McNally) covers: aging and turning 40; death anxiety (Joanne says she “kicks it down the road” and doesn’t fear death); a 16.5-hour unaided sleep after a night out; and celebrity/industry talk.
Key claims
aging is a privilege; death is philosophically “irrelevant” once you zoom out; long sleep can happen even without melatonin; and Taylor Swift’s lyrics fuel “decoding” speculation (e.g., “Boring Barbie,” “ghosted me,” “Sympathy is a Knife” possibly referencing Charlie XCX).
Notable examples
Riyadh Comedy Festival controversy (Saudi human-rights record; comics paid six figures; Pete Davidson’s money-motivated honesty; Jim Jefferies shock-jock jokes); misogynistic power dynamics in entertainment (One Direction “competition” stories; an actor’s 50th birthday booking a female comic as an inside joke).
Guests
none—only the hosts.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOReflecting on Turning 40
0:10 to 1:16
Vogue discusses her thoughts and feelings about turning 40 and her past experiences.
“Hello and welcome to the bonus episode of My Therapist Goated Me with me Vogue Williams and Joanne McNally.”
Philosophical Views on Death
1:16 to 2:18
Joanne shares her perspective on death and how she copes with it.
“I was like, God, some people just don't get here.”
Dogs and Afterlife Thoughts
2:18 to 3:44
A light-hearted discussion about dogs and whimsical ideas of the afterlife.
Aging and Events for 40+ Women
3:44 to 4:52
Vogue shares her experience with events aimed at women over 40 and the menopause.
“See Joe, you know those dogs with the sticks that are too big to get in the door and they can't figure out how to take it in lengthways.”
Sleep Patterns and Work Life
4:52 to 7:08
Joanne reveals her sleep habits after a hectic work period and shares insights about sleep.
“to my first over 40s event oh you've been nominated just for women over 40 and I was like excuse and I was like oh shit.”
Morals of Comedians in Controversial Places
7:08 to 10:40
The hosts discuss the morality of comedians performing in countries with poor human rights records.
Taylor Swift’s Work Ethic and Music
10:40 to 13:22
The conversation shifts to Taylor Swift, her music, and her impressive work ethic.
“And particularly as Pete Davidson's father died in 9-11, they're like, how can you do this?”
Industry Rivalries and Female Competitiveness
13:22 to 14:01
Joanne and Vogue explore the dynamics of female rivalries in the music industry.
Decoding Taylor Swift's Lyrics
14:01 to 16:49
Explore the complexities and interpretations of Taylor Swift's songwriting.
“So we think this song coming back is her reply to that.”
Misogyny in Celebrity Culture
16:50 to 18:38
Discuss the power dynamics and misogyny present in celebrity culture and relationships.
“but they know the person is British for some reason.”
Show all 11 chapters
Attraction and Stage Presence
18:39 to 19:46
Delve into the intoxicating nature of attraction towards A-list celebrities and performers.
“When I used to model in Ireland, now I don't know if this is true or not, but someone told me that there was a sports team that used to have a hit list of the models that people had to try and get in Ireland.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:01Vogue Williams:This is a Global Player original podcast.
0:10Vogue Williams:Hello and welcome to the bonus episode of My Therapist Goated Me with me Vogue Williams and Joanne McNally. Hiya.
0:19Joanne McNally:Hiya. There's your big 40 year old head. Congratulations. Congratulations. I actually do.
0:25Vogue Williams:I'm thrilled. Good. I'm happy to be 40. I think it's a nice place to be because like when I was 30, you see, I was getting divorced and like everything was falling apart and my life was in probably the worst state it was ever in. I think I was moving back in my parents and everything and work wasn't really going as well as it was. obviously I was getting divorced and humiliated by that and I just think anything's better than that I'm glad to be a decade on and and more and more assorted yeah and you are assorted I think it's
1:04Joanne McNally:very much depends on where you are in your life and where you are in your head with yourself and you're in a very good place that's why you're very blessed we're very privileged we're very lucky aging is a privilege you know a lot of people don't make it to their 40s it's a depressing start to the podcast, but that's the truth.
1:18Vogue Williams:I did. I was thinking about that. I was like, God, some people just don't get here. I know. Then I thought to myself, because I was like, fuck it, I'll double down on depressing myself. I was like, oh no, now I'm halfway through my life. And then that started to make me sad.
1:30Joanne McNally:We're going to get you a death doula, so you can start dealing with this phobia of death. How do you, I do not have a phobia about it at all. I deal with death the way I deal with most things in my life. I don't think about it. You just kick it down the road. I just don't think about it. I go, I go, I can either, I kind of zoom out and I'm like what it means in the world and how irrelevant we all are really and the philosophy of it and everyone dies. And then in a couple of years time, everyone who cares that you're dead, no one will care that they're dead. And it rolls on and rolls on and rolls on.
2:02Joanne McNally:And then I just don't think about it. And then I drink.
2:09Vogue Williams:Well, I'm very well adjusted is the truth of it. I was thinking about it right and I actually had a nice feeling about death the other day I'm not going to talk about Winston all the time by the way I'm going to keep it like within myself because I know that other people will be like enough but someone sent me a thing about dogs and dogs go to this field in heaven right and they're all just delighted with themselves and they're all playing with each other and all of a sudden one dog just goes and looks up and just bolts off and the other the dogs are like where's he gone and he's ran to his owner oh my god that is so cute i know so that made me be like oh god it won't be so bad well i'll have dogs all over me
2:50Joanne McNally:well not according to the rapture people i'm not gonna go down the rapture hole again but they were saying by their kids so we're all gonna be fenced off apparently when we get up there
2:57Vogue Williams:into different areas that's not true i read this book right i've spoken about it before dr brian white we all souls so like i could be your mom in the next life joanne or you could be my baby like well you could be my baby or you could be my fucking husband so all souls and joe that's the most i'm expecting i am the man in the relationship physically you do tick all those boxes but mentally it's me i would say i have been your husband in a previous life because souls all stick together so we all come back as something to each other I don't care what anyone thinks that's what I'm believing it's what I'm going down
3:37Joanne McNally:Joe was the family dog would we say
3:40Vogue Williams:yeah it's gonna be an animal isn't it
3:41Joanne McNally:a fucking hamster or something
3:44Vogue Williams:I do remember him running towards me
3:47Joanne McNally:with the hair yeah the labradoodle bouncing towards us in the park on a Saturday morning if I stick for you now Joe would memory kind of kick in would you run for us oh yeah I always when I see them on the floor
3:59Vogue Williams:I am possessed with a need to sort of pick them up and take them home. I don't know why. See Joe,
4:05Joanne McNally:you know those dogs with the sticks that are too big to get in the door and they can't figure out how to take it in lengthways. It's just banging against the open door. We're like Joe drop the stick. Always a Labrador. We've got ads to record for God's sake.
4:16Vogue Williams:That's why I couldn't come to Wimbledon because I would have just run on and chased the bull. Yeah.
4:22Joanne McNally:He's very responsive to whistles. Have you noticed that folk?
4:25Vogue Williams:I find he doesn't like them actually. He cowers away doesn't like the tin whistle either or the recorder. I can't bear it.
4:32Joanne McNally:Oh Jo. We love you Jo. You'd have been a human. You'd have been our brother. Oh thanks. Yeah.
4:37Vogue Williams:Oh that's nice isn't it?
4:38Joanne McNally:Yeah that's what people call their dogs sometimes.
4:40Vogue Williams:My brother do they? Yeah. I call it my child. My little babies.
4:45Joanne McNally:Anyway it's a death doula for you Vogan. Congratulations on welcome to my box.
4:49Vogue Williams:The 40 box yeah. So when I got invited to my first over 40s event oh you've been nominated just for women over 40 and I was like excuse
4:57Joanne McNally:and I was like oh shit. That's not for you. That's for women in their late 40s, early 50s into their 70s.
5:04Vogue Williams:No, no, no, no, no. It's for 40 and above. And then yesterday, I got a message about the menopause.
5:10Joanne McNally:Ah, for fuck's sake. Listen, don't even talk to me. I can't. Menopause. I did a story yesterday. So I had a day off yesterday and it's been fairly, work has been fairly frantic, I would say.
5:21Vogue Williams:I'm so glad you're bringing this up because I spoke to Spencer about this and I was like, how did she do it? But I have something to add. Go on, tell everyone what you did.
5:28Joanne McNally:So I had a big chunk of work. So I take it in chunks, okay? And then I get myself through. And remember I was on my little sober train and everything because I had to get that chunk of work done. Anyway, when that chunk of work finished, I had a night out. Yeah. Nothing mental. And then I had a day off the day after the night out. I slept for, I estimated to be 16 and a half hours.
5:49Vogue Williams:No.
5:51Joanne McNally:Unaided. Au natural. No melatonin, nothing. Obviously I was talking about it at the Instagram because that's what we do. and Vogue you've given me an interest in sleep now thank you very much I'm absolutely thrilled about this for making me incredibly boring on the internet because now I like talking about sleeping and dreams how many emails
6:09Vogue Williams:did you get about that so many I'd say
6:12Joanne McNally:loads yeah but a lot of them some of them sorry I'm making a mountain out of a molehill here there was a lot of accusations oh that's the premenopause that's the premenopause that's the premenopause it's not it's just because I'm working days and nights and I'm absolutely wrecked but in a great way Todd Tiersha I'm down Todd Tiersha is that not I'm sad
6:32Vogue Williams:no Todd Tiersha Tiersha's tired oh the tiredness of the world is on me yeah
6:37Joanne McNally:so poetic except you don't have a clue what we're talking about
6:40Vogue Williams:isn't it isn't it gorgeous yeah I just I do find that fascinating like the longest I could sleep and this is what I do every time I'm hung over and I could just I could be coming off the back of a seven hour hangover sleep and then I wake up and I've had drinks the night before not even feeling that bad can go about my day but I will be in bed at 7 o 'clock and I'll get 9 and a half to 10 hours sleep and that is the longest sleep my body will ever let me have so the fact that you could do 16 and a half unaided is like that should go into a what's the longest anyone's ever slept that must be up there well there was two nights sleep it's two nights sleep
7:16Joanne McNally:yeah there was toilet breaks but like you know kind of feeling your way through the dark like I didn't wake I didn't turn a light on or anything like that but there was obviously toilet breaks what about the food No food freaks It's 16 hours I didn't Well I suppose I didn't even wake up hungry
Read the full transcript
7:31Vogue Williams:That is Your body is just I'll never understand it I will never understand Your body isn't Your body's AI Or something There's something not right
7:43Vogue Williams:We're off for two weeks We are Well done for remembering We have a terrible reputation
7:49Joanne McNally:For I actually was not going to say And it's quite embarrassing But in that time just thinks we've broken up if we broke up we'd do an expose wouldn't we
7:59Vogue Williams:oh god if we broke up I'd be going I'd sell my story I'd go to the sun and it would be a war of words I'll tell you I would do an exclusive tell all podcast with both of you I'll produce both of you yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah perfect yeah
8:14Joanne McNally:you know those it's a real American trait when podcasters fall out and then they do kind of a here's what actually happened and then they just throw each other down this morning and there's a loyalty of a bin bag in the States I feel like they're just so content crazy that anything like they go real personal with their stuff
8:34Vogue Williams:so where are you going to be for the next two weeks everyone can find it on joannemcnally.com
8:38Joanne McNally:joannemcnally.com I'm going all over I'm going to Stockton on Tees and Chester and Salford but Dubai is I'm doing two shows in Dubai and there's still tickets for the earlier show later show there's tickets for the later show I think I remember on October 17th yeah I think it's tickets for the later show the last time we went to Dubai and Gerold came out with me and Gerold's a gay man and a gay man messaged me and he's like I'm disgusted you're going to Dubai blah blah blah and I was like there's a huge gay scene in Dubai who deserve acts and performers to come out as well have you seen about this festival in Riyadh Joe?
9:10Joanne McNally:I have yeah
9:12Vogue Williams:because everyone's going you're not going are you?
9:14Joanne McNally:I know I'm not going but I was asked to go she was asked to go and I turned it down and it's like and look I was never going to go but it was a six figure offer to go and I was never it's big money and if I'm getting six figures what are the Chappelle's and the Jimmy Carr's getting
9:30Vogue Williams:I'd say like I'd say they're getting
9:33Joanne McNally:millions but I just millions for anyone who doesn't know there's the Riyadh Comedies Festival Riyadh is the capital of Saudi Arabia and they've put on what they're claiming to be is the biggest comedy festival in the world and it's all funded by the government of course and Saudi Arabia has the worst human rights track record in all the track records of human time, probably even worse than like medieval England kind of vibes. And they're still like executing women and, you know, having public hangings and all that jazz.
10:01Vogue Williams:If you're going to do it, I don't find some of the, and I know they're comedians and people, some people probably find it funny. I don't find some of the jokes that the comedians going out are saying about in defense of why they're going. I just don't find them funny. I just think it's off the mark. If you're going out to do it, just be honest with yourself and be like, yes, I am going out to do it and that's just the way it is. But don't start making jokes about that, like, about women and stuff like that that the problem the problems out there are don't make jokes around it I do
10:27Joanne McNally:like they're offering life changing money to comics and comics notoriously have times where they don't make any money if you are trying to feed your family I can understand the moral conundrum if as a comic you're offered a six figure sum for like a one day's work I do understand the moral conundrum that comes with that but a lot of the comics they're you know they're not faced with that moral conundrum because they have tons and tons of cash. Pete Davidson is out in Riyadh and he, in fairness to him, was very honest about it because he said, because Americans are kind of saying, how can American comics go out and take money off a culture that they think financed 9-11, basically?
11:11Joanne McNally:And particularly as Pete Davidson's father died in 9-11, they're like, how can you do this? And he's like, I see the flight number and I see the cost of the gig and I say, yes. He's like, it's it. I'm money motivated it's about the money for me
11:23Vogue Williams:yeah if he at least he came out and said that but some of them the jokes were just so off the mark for me Jim Jefferies Jim Jefferies it just it just like oh god it just wasn't like you're talking about somebody that's been executed like it's not it's just not funny
11:36Joanne McNally:he was talking about the journalist who was executed by the Saudi government do you remember your man who went into the Saudi embassy and came out in a suitcase
11:42Vogue Williams:I was fucking shocking that was absolutely there's a documentary on that that I watched it was absolutely terrifying but like if you're going out but then you know what he said that and then his name was suddenly off the bill so I'd say that I'd say that maybe I don't know I don't know
11:59Joanne McNally:I don't know whether he would there's no way he did so who knows I'd say he got such but Jim Jeffries has always been like that he's a bit of a shock jock he kind of he's always been he says all the wrong stuff and you know that's kind of how he rolls
12:23Joanne McNally:Taylor Swift's new album I can't use the term dropped it's it's it's too Gen Z for me is out
12:31Vogue Williams:how is it how like I don't understand this woman that is like how long does she sleep for because never didn't she just she just had a tour where she was touring an album so is this another album that now she'll then go and tour again it's I mean when did this happen I have to admire her I really do I think she has It's cray cray I don't love her music now And please don't go for me over that But it's just not the kind of music I listen to But I do think she is To be able to go Even to go and put on a three hour show Like she does
13:03Joanne McNally:Is absolutely wild She's exceptional And I have to say I do like her music I admire We all admire her How could you not?
13:11Vogue Williams:Yeah I mean I'm taking the piss about my work ethic
13:13Joanne McNally:Her work ethic is off the charts
13:15Vogue Williams:But then I feel like she's just got all her shit together She's always like I see her picture going for dinners so I feel like she's got also got a good balance maybe I'm wrong because you know when you just see people's lives that you know nothing about and I'm sure she just is really busy up the walls all the time and pretty stressed like the rest of us
13:31Joanne McNally:the album has landed to great applause obviously everything she does is to great applause I don't know she wrote this in the fucking bath I don't know how she pulled this off
13:41Vogue Williams:I heard she got the flu and she just wrote it during that time when she was in bed on her downtime yeah yeah
13:47Joanne McNally:she wrote in her sleep her eyes just tipping off her lashes little pencils in her eyes Taylor Swift's actually romantic there's a song called Actually Romantic lyrics is it all about Charlie XCX so the great thing about Taylor is her songs are kind of like diary entries to catchy music so it's very much about her life and she very much minds around personal experience and if someone pisses if someone pisses Taylor off we know about it and they go into the song and then the internet spends years and years trying to decode and I think that's where it's all very Da Vinci code like it's like Sudoku musical Sudoku people are always trying to figure out what she actually means which is kind of half the crack of it but apparently
14:25Vogue Williams:So what's the problem with Charlie XCX and I didn't even know that they were are they friends or not friends?
14:30Joanne McNally:Well you see because this isn't our world we don't know the insides and the outsides but of course there are jealousies and competitiveness and all that going on in their industry the same as there is in all other industries
14:41Vogue Williams:This is way more crack than Liam and Noel by the way I'd way rather hear about this Gus
14:45Joanne McNally:Well theirs is too theirs is so obvious whereas this is yeah Liam and O's this is yeah okay this is this is female scrapping you have to decode this we're more passive aggressive the lads just have it out we're more passive aggressive you know hiya kiss kiss what a bitch yeah that's our mouth
15:06Vogue Williams:oh my god I love your new album shite
15:08Joanne McNally:yeah yeah yeah well what is it then Charlie XCX wrote a song called Sympathy is a Knife and they think it could be about Taylor Swift, right? So we think this song coming back is her reply to that. So Taylor's lyrics are, I heard you call me boring Barbie when the coke's got you brave. And you said you're glad... And to her... Yeah, I know. It's a good line, isn't it? Boring Barbie. Libelous a little bit. Well, only if we know who it's about, Jo, which we don't. Which we don't, do we? No. Oh, no. Oh. And the next line is, you said you're glad he ghosted me and you say it makes you sick to see my face.
15:51Vogue Williams:God, I wouldn't want to fuck off Taylor Swift, but in fairness, if that's all true, I'd be pretty annoyed as well. I too would write a song about it. I find these decoding things just so stupid though sometimes. Sometimes it actually just, I watched this thing about myself the other day, not trying to, like, it was completely shite. I mean, there's nothing along those lines, but I was like that is someone trying to decode something that was written about us and I was like that is just so mental that someone is going to sit there and try and decode something that's not even fucking true and it's just I find it so fascinating and ridiculous that somebody would waste their time
16:30Joanne McNally:That's like how conspiracy theories start people want the inside scoop people don't want to accept things at face value but ultimately with all due respect Taylor is intentionally doing this
16:41Vogue Williams:Yeah yeah yeah
16:42Joanne McNally:Well she does that with every album doesn't she? She did it with Harry Styles as well. Well speculation continues by possible targets. Swift herself has not confirmed any names but they know the person is British for some reason. I don't know why. They're obviously in the lyrics. The track includes lines such as at least you know exactly who your friends are. They're the ones with matching scars. They stood by me before my exoneration. They believed I was innocent. I don't know. Anyway obviously today I will do a little bit of a deep dive on this and get to the bottom of it. But you have to remember we just assume that all these people are mates.
17:10Joanne McNally:There are no more mates than the rest of us.
17:11Vogue Williams:She does. write about a lot of people. I loved when she was doing all that stuff about Harry Styles and then I read this article yesterday. Again, this is me whinging about decoding stuff and then also me getting involved in it because you can't help it. I read this article that this girl who used to work on an airline, a private jet airline, basically we used to fly, in Australia, used to fly one direction around and she said that all the boys had this competition to try and get a girl to sleep with them without even saying a single word to that person and one of them did and I'm like oh my god that's so bad.
17:47Vogue Williams:That's such a
17:48Joanne McNally:misogynist fucking power playing I hate that. Do you know and again I can't mention names but there was a very famous male actor and I know for his 50th his friends booked him a female comic who I know to perform at his 50th birthday as an inside joke because he like kind of.
18:09Vogue Williams:Doesn't like female Comics Yeah
18:12Joanne McNally:He always goes on by him Which he doesn't think Women are funny And he hates female comics They did They booked this female comic Who she's excellent At her job As a like Inside joke To annoy him I know That's why When those one direction things I'm like Whether it's true I hope Well it probably is true To be honest Let's face it
18:27Vogue Williams:I don't know I just I don't Toxic That's toxic But I just I just don't think That they would be dickheads Like that But I Oh I'd really hope That they wouldn't
18:38Joanne McNally:Any man with power like that, women just become so disposable to them.
18:43Vogue Williams:When I used to model in Ireland, now I don't know if this is true or not, but someone told me that there was a sports team that used to have a hit list of the models that people had to try and get in Ireland. And I was just like, oh God. And that literally made me be like, I will never, ever score any of them ever because I just think that's, you don't want to be treated like a piece of meat. It's just grim. I know.
19:07Joanne McNally:And because there is this like uneven power play between like regular female women and male celebrity. And it's the same with female celebrity and regular men. It's an uneven power dynamic. So people end up kind of throwing themselves at those Hollywood A-lister kind of vibes. Not all of them, but like, you know, it's intoxicating being around. I was around an A-list person once and it is intoxicating. You can tell They're like This person can have Anything they want At any time of the day Or night And I'm attracted to it It's hot
19:36Vogue Williams:Also I think people When they're on stage And like when they're When you see their talent And stuff like that You kind of are drawn To it a little bit more It's just like a natural Like Joanna When I see you on stage I say to myself You fancy me If I could have that girl I would have her In two seconds plot Just kind of what happens When someone's on stage
19:53Joanne McNally:But that's because That's because you're a woman The men come to the show And they leave going What a nightmare Yeah I wouldn't touch off that if she was on fire
20:04Vogue Williams:I leave going oh god how am I going to tell her I have feelings for her you're like I can't look her in the eye
20:09Joanne McNally:I'm like Vogue let's be boot let's be calibrate
20:12Vogue Williams:Vogue are you not coming backstage no I actually had to I had to get home for the kids Vogue put your pants back on
20:18Joanne McNally:please this is an industry drinks event
20:27Vogue Williams:that's it for two weeks we're gone I'm off to Riyadh Imagine this went out And then Joanne's just posted about her First class flight Had a change of heart guys Yeah
20:40Joanne McNally:With the Saudi prince
20:42Vogue Williams:Sorry just turning off the comments
20:47Vogue Williams:So funny comments disabled Everyone we will miss you We will miss you a lot But we're going to see you I'll miss you too But I won't really Because I'll see you all the time anyway See you next week Back on Friday the 24th of October
20:59Joanne McNally:Friday 24th of October
From the publisher
Vogue & Joanne are on a little break... But only until October 24th! Until then, here's some chat about the Taylor Swift and Charli XCX beef (if it is one at all), the furore around the Riyadh comedy festival and how long Joanne slept for in one sitting. Yes... Joanne is talking about sleep and Vogue is beside herself.
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This episode contains explicit language and adult themes that may not be suitable for all listeners.