MTGM EXTRA! "Red flags everywhere... Like a parade."

0:01Vogue Williams:This is a Global Player original podcast.

0:10Vogue Williams:Hello and welcome to My Therapist Ghosts With Me with me, Vogue Williams and Joanne McNally.

0:19Okay, Stephen Bartlett, UK's biggest podcast.

0:23Vogue Williams:So he has the biggest podcast and everybody has gone kind of wild and we probably would have talked about this on the main had Brooklyn Beckham not come out with the news that he came out with. Taking up our time, yeah. Yeah, so it just felt more important to cover Brooklyn but we also feel it's important to cover this because...

0:41Joanne McNally:Also, I do hope that we were met... When I left the pod yesterday and it was like I'd been... Something had kind of passed through me. It was like I'd done ayahuasca. I was so high on the adrenaline of the podcast but I was like, I hope we weren't too hard on him.

0:56Vogue Williams:I think that everybody has an opinion on the thing. At the end of the day, it's a really sad situation and you'd hope that they will find a way to figure it out. The only thing that like, I just feel, I just think it's a step too far coming out against your family like that. It just feels, it's like a dirty game. It's like what Harry did. It's grim. Harry, Prince Harry. Is he still Prince? Oh yeah, no, that's Andrew. Okay, yes, he is still Prince.

1:17Joanne McNally:He's just kind of rando Harry now, isn't he? Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's rando Harry. But yeah, so I just want to add that in, I hope, because we were very worked up and I hope we weren't too harsh on him.

1:27Vogue Williams:No. So, okay. So Stephen Bartlett, he does loads of different topics. I actually saw, and I listened to an episode of him and Esther Perel because I do really like her. You actually put me on to her and I really, really like her stuff. And he was talking to her about dating apps and she was kind of calling him out and he was like talking about how it's so hard for men and like there's this man who spent like two years, maybe it was five years, on a dating app trying to find a girl and this other man who was the most swiped, he did the most swipes So he swiped like over 2 ,000 people. He had conversations with 1 ,000.

1:59Vogue Williams:And then he only ended up having a date with one that didn't work out. And he was like, how are people supposed to meet each other? And she was literally like, dude, they're meant to go out and meet each other. She was like, how long did he spend messaging people in his house when he could have been out meeting actual real people? Anyway, he did a podcast with a YouTuber called Chris Williamson. And they were talking about the declining birth rates. First of all, two men that have no children discussing declining birth rates is an unusual topic for them to touch on.

2:27Joanne McNally:I think they were coming at it from a space of, you know, this male loneliness epidemic. And there's a lot of men who are, as we call incels, involuntary celibates, who can't find a woman to ride them. There's a new trend. We're decentering men. Women are financially secure. Marriage and kids isn't what it was. It's all kind of falling apart. And women are actually quite good at being on their own. We kind of have our community. We have good friends. and they're talking about are these men entitled to have sex and keep their legacy and keep their genes going because all these men are going to die out.

3:03Vogue Williams:No. To keep their gene pool going. Listen, obviously there is a big problem with male loneliness and we're not taking away from that but it was the way that they said it that women basically, basically painting women as the problem and men have to pass on their genes and how women are deciding to choose education, working in their careers instead of going to have children, which was just, it kind of started from this list of a girl called Abigail Porter. And they were reading her list and it was her hundred reasons plus not to have kids. Now, I found a lot of it funny. It was like morning sickness.

3:35Vogue Williams:This girl once threw up so much that she burst all the blood vessels in her eyes. You can't choose how many babies you have. Imagine you decide to have kids and then boom, you have triplets. So it was kind of stuff like that. And they were kind of insulting her list, being like, this is basically the problem. Like this is making women not want to have children. But at the end of the day, why, if certain men can't meet women and they're sitting at home on their computer, like that man who was sitting at home just looking for dates online instead of actually going into the real world. It's not like Handmaid's Tale shit where women then have to be impregnated to make sure that we keep, like, do you not remember when I was having Otto and we were laughing at the fact that you were like, this is bad for the environment.

4:12Vogue Williams:Because only four years ago, everyone was like, it's so bad for the environment. All these children, people are having too many children. and it was kind of that and now it's turned to this and the two of them are discussing it and everybody has rightfully gone insane.

4:26Joanne McNally:I think the big problem with the conversation was Stephen Bartlett asked the question should society intervene? Oh. Which of course any woman any woman who hears this is like he sounds like he's trying to organise some mass grape in the town where women are going to be held down and impregnated or he's going to roofie the whole country. I don't know what I don't know what I don't know what he was saying. Jordan Peterson has had these conversations before about should society intervene. And I will say this, Stephen Bartlett and that other lad, Chris Williamson, when I say all these lads do, they're all part of this like manosphere, like it's all about men's mental health.

5:04Joanne McNally:Grant, men's mental health, obviously that must be important. These lads, especially that guy, Chris Williamson, he's always bothered me. There's nothing behind the eyes. And you can just tell you that.

5:12Vogue Williams:He literally has just found these opinions somewhere and now he's spouting them out like they're his own. It's like, shut up.

5:17Joanne McNally:I'm so glad you agreed with me because I feel the same he's so clearly regurgitating shit that he's heard other people say because he thinks it makes him sound smart but anyway obviously the internet blew up do you know what this is what bothers me about this thing there's no conversation they're all about could men be kinder more charming buy a suit pay for dates do bits like that instead of holding women down and pregnant which I know isn't what he means

5:45Vogue Williams:some of the points that they were talking about and they were agreeing with each other. Men show up on dating apps and are getting nothing. Well, they obviously, just because they show up doesn't mean everybody wants them. And then women should practice being receptive to men. Pardon?

5:58Joanne McNally:Yeah. Do you know what? I think that, well, those lads who aren't getting any luck, they need to come on our journey, Jo, and be an 8.6 by May. But I also feel like... Poor Jo.

6:08Vogue Williams:Just came on to this podcast probably thinking, my hair looks nice today and Joanna dragged him right there. Jo, I don't know we can get you to an 8.6

6:17Joanne McNally:but we'll get you somewhere we've got to we've got to make do I mean make do when Vogue posted the photo of you yesterday several people messaged me thinking they thought they thought you were Brooklyn Beckham so there you go Joseph

6:27Vogue Williams:I did get that a little bit and he is good looking now Brooklyn Beckham we can't take that away from him I do think it's because my hair needs a cut at the moment and I hadn't washed it in several days and that's no comment on Brooklyn I just oh yeah you need a haircut yeah yeah yeah

6:40Joanne McNally:but back to the lads you're not you're not you're not entitled to sex and kids. Like, if you're that worried about your legacy, buy a bench in a park. Do you know what I mean?

6:53Vogue Williams:Women aren't resources either.

6:58Joanne McNally:Do you know what I love that one? Buy a wank sleeve. You know, do whatever. Like, listen, I do think the declining, it's all everyone's talking about at the moment. And it will become an issue eventually. Like, you're kind of, how do we keep humankind going? but I honestly think the robots are going to take us out before any of that shit kicks off anyway. I wrote down a list of how not to be an incel. Do you know what it's like? These men aren't going to starve to death from lack of sex. Look at me. I'm practically reverginised at this stage. You don't see me out asking society to intervene do you?

7:28Joanne McNally:You are.

7:29Vogue Williams:I have a real concern. I don't even know if you're using your bits and bobs that you have in the house anymore. You've just stopped. Did that stay in? What?

7:38Joanne McNally:I can't even think about it. These men, I'm not being bad. I'm not being bad when she said that's something I say when I'm about to be bad I know exactly the kind of men and I do I think the dating apps are very much they're very physical like it's very visible do you know what I mean if you lined up any of my ex-boyfriends I wouldn't match with any of them on a date nap actually no sorry I matched with two of them but the other five I wouldn't have but when I met them in person I was absolutely obsessed with them so I'm just saying

8:05Vogue Williams:I think it's like trying to get out I know it's not easy but trying to get out and meet people in real life is always going to be the better option because you will be so picky like I always said that about Sven not that he's not good looking but wouldn't have been my type at the time I wouldn't have swiped for him and we're married now with three kids so better to meet somebody in real life

8:22Joanne McNally:who's got a snotty nose

8:23Vogue Williams:and it stinks to drink on a ski slope

8:26Joanne McNally:Luckily for you you are out of the trenches now and as a woman who is very much still in them and is a product of my generation and has decentered men and now spends all my time indoors in my boffers this is what I was going to say men exfoliate it's not hard exfoliate fix your scalp issues. Do not post dating profile photos in a gaming seat.

8:48Vogue Williams:Yes, yes.

8:50Joanne McNally:Agree. That is a huge flag. Do not let me see.

8:53Vogue Williams:Don't own a gaming seat.

8:55Joanne McNally:Don't have tiny windows in the background because I'll know it's a basement. Do not post a photo where you're wearing a Britney mic because I know you are gaming. Don't eat your dinner off a clothes horse. Don't display every bottle of Jack Daniels like it's some achievement around your house. Stop watching anime porn. Good points. Potentially buy a nose clipper as all holes should be free of hair. I'm just trying to help.

9:18Vogue Williams:Well, mine would be more along the lines of like, treat women with respect. Don't just expect women to want to jump at you. Understand like what the person you're trying to date enjoys. Go out, have fun. Don't be expectant. Be respectful, be polite. It's not hard.

9:35Joanne McNally:The conversation was very problematic because it's like, where was the argument for men bringing something else to the table instead of the idea of being like handcuff a woman to a fucking radiator and stick a baby in her against her will. Which I'm sure that's not what he was suggesting but it certainly sounded like it.

9:49Vogue Williams:It definitely came across like that and I always think that like I hate this kind of cancel culture which is really going in on him now and I know that we're talking about it but we're allowed to have the conversation. I don't agree with the cancel culture. I don't think he's going to get cancelled but I do think he needs to be more careful if he's going to go in on such a heavy topic like that and so many heavy topics that he does go in on. Just be more careful because you've pissed off every single female that's listened to your podcast.

10:12Joanne McNally:And the conversation also was about how it's kind of dangerous because he first presented as a kind of mental health guru for men. And because he's got this really, there was a comedian online whose name escapes me. I'm sorry. But he did a really good video about it. And he was saying that he's presenting these really right-wing ideas, but like in front of a ring light with a really soft voice. Shabazz. Yes. Shabazz, that's him. really good really good really good really funny guy and he was like that's the danger they're really toxic conversations which women are not involved in and he's it's coming across almost like a thought like he's just being thoughtful whereas actually it's like dude you're it's sounding like you want to roofie the world and just shag us against our will so there you go