In short
Bonus episode of “My Terpest Goes To Me” where Joanne McNally and Michelle de Swarte discuss rejection and career setbacks, especially around turning 39/40, plus tangents on press, voiceover work, and Azealia Banks’ public feuds.
Guests
Michelle de Swarte (actor; previously on RuPaul’s Drag Race; touring/arena shows; also does voiceover work). Joanne McNally is the host.
Key claims
Rejection is common in auditions and job hunts; don’t over-check social media; build routines (“baby steps”); consider taking a break from drinking; when life is in disarray, take bigger gambles and sacrifices; press interviews require letting awkward silence sit.
Notable examples
Michelle recounts being on British time during Australia work; Azealia Banks criticizing Beyonce’s “Cowboy Carter,” plus feuds (Ireland insult; Conor McGregor interaction; Russell Crowe hotel incident). Listener asks how to keep going after “professional rejection” at 39.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOCatch-Up on Michelle's Adventures
0:45 to 1:40
Joanne and Michelle discuss Michelle's experiences on reality TV and her schedule.
“I, just to be clear, we're double recording this because Michelle's a busy bitch.”
Voiceover Work Insights
1:40 to 2:49
The hosts explore the quirks and experiences of doing voiceover work.
“Girl, you are waking up at like the morning and you're having a steak and mash.”
Azealia Banks Discussion
2:49 to 4:53
Joanne and Michelle delve into Azealia Banks's controversial public persona and music.
“When you speak so much, you kind of lose how your words are coming out of your mouth.”
Navigating Conflict and Rejection
4:53 to 9:00
The hosts reflect on dealing with conflict, public perception, and personal experiences.
“I was thinking about Azeelia Banks and the amount, like, I'm very conflict averse.”
Listener's Rejection Struggles
9:00 to 14:00
The hosts provide advice to a listener facing job rejections and frustration.
“Listen, Joanne's doing Arena, good for her.”
Navigating Identity and Social Media Pressure
14:01 to 15:26
Discussing the challenges of identity and the pressures from social media in your 30s and 40s.
Reflections on Aging and Life Changes
15:26 to 16:53
Exploring the feelings and realizations that come with turning 40 and the societal expectations around age.
“It's fucking long, but like, all we see is the end results.”
The Challenges of Dating at 40
16:53 to 18:34
A candid conversation about the dating scene and societal perceptions as one approaches their 40s.
“They're just like, nah, has this got a 30 day warranty?”
Recollections of Friendship and Fun Times
18:34 to 21:03
Recollecting past fun experiences and the importance of friendship amidst life's challenges.
“Michelle, thank you so much for coming in.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:01Joanne McNally:Thumbtack presents Tile Trouble. Every single time I use my sink, I make eye contact with the uneven grout of my kitchen backsplash. The crooked corners eye me and I'm haunted by more tiling questions than I thought possible. What kind of pro can fix a backsplash? Can I replace one cracked tile or should I replace them all? What? What if I just use Thumbtack? I can hire top-rated pros, read reviews, and compare prices with a tap. All on the app. Thumbtack knows homes. Download the app today.
0:32Joanne McNally:This is a Global Player original podcast.
0:40Joanne McNally:Welcome to the bonus episode of My Terpest Goes To Me with me, Joanne McNally. And she's back.
0:46Michelle De Swarte:Yeah, baby.
0:47Joanne McNally:Michelle De Swart, she's here again. Hello. Hello. Salutations. I, just to be clear, we're double recording this because Michelle's a busy bitch. so we haven't seen any more of Vogue's jungle's story.
1:01Michelle De Swarte:No, but my God, we've got a lot to go on. Do you know what I mean? We've got a lot to go on. She's arrived. She's had shit chucked at her. It has been horrific to watch. But she's keeping a smile on her face.
1:15Joanne McNally:She is. I was going to go on the Lorraine. I was going to go on Lorraine to help, I don't know, like rally, but I couldn't do it in the end.
1:21Michelle De Swarte:Are you going to go and meet her from the jungle? I'd love to.
1:24Joanne McNally:You've got to. I can't. Why not? Because I'm on tour. the bridge thing is a real issue because the person who meets you off the bridge has to be free to go out to Australia for two weeks so like most people can't do that so that's why you see a lot of these celebrities being met by their managers and all, you know what I mean? So you know what right, this is something they also don't tell you
1:43Michelle De Swarte:when you go out there, because you know I did the panel years ago because Jack Osborne had swine flu right, so what they don't tell you is if you're on the panel doing anything like that that isn't in the jungle they keep you on British time They keep you on British time. Girl, you are waking up at like the morning and you're having a steak and mash. You're having lasagna for breakfast. Like they keep you on British time.
2:07Joanne McNally:It's mental. I remember I was down to the last couple of people to get the voiceover for Love Island Australia. Random. Yeah. And then I didn't get it in the end. And Stephen Mullen, who did get it, then COVID happened. Because usually you fly out to Australia. They make you fly out to do it. Yeah. for voiceover yeah before Covid anyway yeah you had to fly out yeah
2:27Michelle De Swarte:no one tell him yeah yeah I've got to be there in person yeah I'll bring my mic with me but I think loads of people
2:35Joanne McNally:they would like I was like oh yeah that'd be like I was kind of wanted to go out but anyway Covid happened and he was in a hotel room but he was on Australian time he was on his own in a hotel room and I was like I'm actually so glad I didn't get that job
2:47Michelle De Swarte:that sounds shit crack yeah
2:49Joanne McNally:shit crack
2:50Michelle De Swarte:yeah I went for them two days like I went to the gig one gig over my birthday last month and I was like I came back and I was spun out the fuck like massively yeah but voiceover's great man I know I love it I'm the voice of Deliveroo it's my favourite job yeah
3:06Joanne McNally:it's easy because you're just in and out you can look like a bag of shit if you want no one cares they prefer they prefer yeah but it does get monotonous do you ever do so much voiceover work I remember when I did the voiceover when I was doing the VO for the Furby podcast and I was like I actually don't even know how I sound or speak anymore. When you speak so much, you kind of lose how your words are coming out of your mouth.
3:29Michelle De Swarte:I'm always shocked when I hear the adverts come on. Like, I'm like, wow. Yeah. That is not how I think I sound. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? But I've got to say as well, being hungover and hearing your own voice say that you should get a burger and chips is... Enticing. Ah, solid. Yeah. But it feels like an intervention from God. You're just like, I guess I should then. Wait, you wanted to chat about Azealia Banks. Why? you sent me you sent me just a a WhatsApp going Azalia Banks and I was like
3:55Joanne McNally:what well so when I was doing the I was doing I'm doing a lot of press at the moment because I'm doing I'm I've got
4:02Michelle De Swarte:a fucking arena put that up you fucking fanny hole shut the fuck up don't ever question me an arena I know
4:10Joanne McNally:you know yourself it's a bit I am
4:11Michelle De Swarte:no I don't know myself I'm trying to shift the bloody 300 seater in Swindon you're like you know yourself you've a load of
4:17Joanne McNally:London shows gone yeah you do know also Also, Michelle was on RuPaul's Drag Race. So anyway, I was doing this and, you know, the radio station comes down and you're like talking and talking. And I came out and I was like, I'm so paranoid that I said something, anything about, because a lot, you're like, because I was saying, oh, you know, I'm ready in time and I've, you know, it would be harder if you kind of blew up online and then you're doing big rooms and you're not necessarily ready.
4:40Michelle De Swarte:But you've put the work in. You know your craft. Well, the stage time is there.
4:43Joanne McNally:Anyway, then after you're like, oh my God, fuck, have I pissed off like anyone? I didn't mean it. And blah, blah, blah. Anyway, the head's spinning. and ruminating, blah, blah, blah. Then I was thinking about Azeel. This is what I texted you. I was thinking about Azeelia Banks and the amount, like, I'm very conflict averse. She is conflict gagging for it. There is no stopping her. She'll do mental tweets. She told Ireland, she did a tweet about Ireland and called us all ugly leprechauns, like the whole country. Do you remember that? No. And then she had that weird interaction with Conor McGregor where she asked him to back her up and then it turns out they were sexing each other anyway.
5:16Michelle De Swarte:Do you remember when she said that Russell came, Russell Crowe flobbed on her in a hotel room what? no he spat on her in a hotel room what? and I think RZA from the Wu-Tang Clan took her and he was like after they were like is this true and he was like no it's not I took her with me it ended up being crazy this is what I love about Azealia Banks yeah she said some absolutely horrendous stuff to everybody yeah I'm actually getting the article up and and and she is forgiven right she listen is she though? well listen she said the f-word about um uh gay men and she then still headlines i think it was like some sort of gay pride in my mind or whatever basically azealia banks kind of take her as a pinch of salt she's very like inflammatory i guess and i also feel with azealia banks she's massively talented and like i feel like azealia banks um uh ran so doge could walk yeah they're very similar but you know what I mean like as in like across genres of music can both sing also killer lyricists but Azealia Banks is just like everything's going well and then she's like I'm going to blow up this I'm going to napalm my life right now is she self-sabotaging is that what she's up to she is she's unfiltered she's got she's got the Kanye Twitter fingers at the ready yeah she does yeah
6:39Joanne McNally:Banks' penchant for conflict nearly eclipses her bars in the years since her first mixtape dropped in 2012 if one thing she's actually becoming known for her endless list of feuds on and off social media. She hopped, in March 2024, Banks hopped on Instagram to critique the cover and title of Beyonce's album, Cowboy Carter. Despite Beyonce herself explaining the meaning behind the project and why she decided to make an entire album in a genre she's only previously dabbled in, Banks weighed in with a litany of assumptions and criticisms, ranging from a lack of creativity
7:11Michelle De Swarte:to outright ignorance. Listen, Azealia Banks here. Azealia Banks talks the way you chat with your friend after two bottles of wine. Big time, privately. She wakes up in the morning, she brushes her teeth, and she's like, I'm going to get on a public forum and let people know how I really feel. You're like,
7:26Joanne McNally:baby, baby. That could stick in the... That's for the notes. Yeah, but now... Azzelia. Yeah, now it's part of her brand.
7:33Michelle De Swarte:Do you know what I mean? I know, it kind of is. Yeah, she's going to fuck shit up.
7:35Joanne McNally:Yeah, you're right. Yeah, I love it. She's a disruptor, as they say.
7:37Michelle De Swarte:Yeah, exactly.
7:39Joanne McNally:I saw it out. She had a glass to be in. It was next level. Oh, she's phenomenal. Yeah. phenomenal she made everyone else
7:46Michelle De Swarte:look like they were
7:46Joanne McNally:ringing it in
7:47Michelle De Swarte:to be honest this is what I say about press runs right because I've done a few and I reckon like when you're chatting to the press take your time there's journalists have got a really good way of staying quiet and us as public speakers want to fill that time we're like oh there's an awkward silence I must fill it with talking gibberish and then before you know it you're like oh I've got a stinky fanny and I've got a spoiler on the bottom of my back and you're like what the fuck am I saying
8:12Joanne McNally:do you know what I mean It's like a therapy session. That's why therapists stay quiet to make you admit that you've got all this shit that you don't have.
8:19Michelle De Swarte:Exactly. So I always think, let the awkward silence sit. And if you're ever, because I had to do some press training, which HBO paid for. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Media training. Go on. Yeah, because you're going on a big press run. So they're like, make sure you know how to handle this situation. And I had to sit with someone from, like, who trains you in press. and he was like, if you're asked a question that you're not sure if you want to answer, have a sip of water. Just like, let the silence sit there. And that's why I say it, us as public speakers, we're like, silence, no. Yeah, I know. I will kryptonite, this is kryptonite to me.
8:55Michelle De Swarte:I'm going to keep on talking. And it's like, you don't need to. You can let silence sit in the air. Yeah.
9:05Michelle De Swarte:Listen, Joanne's doing Arena, good for her. now I've got some tickets to bloody shift okay well I'm going all around the UK Swindon, Exeter Farnham wherever the fuck that is listen right this is I'm telling look Joanne's doing arenas I just need 300 of you to turn up to Exeter that's it a humble a humble 300 as you will as you will Joanne needs about 30 ,000 to come
Read the full transcript
9:34Joanne McNally:if you could rally your maids there
9:36Michelle De Swarte:your family tree
9:38Joanne McNally:yeah things have really escalated over this side and I'm in a fucking desperate bit now to fucking feel this thing because people are like oh congratulations you're doing an arena I was like no no the congratulations comes you know what it's like I'm like I've just rented it at this point but at the moment it is completely empty
9:53Michelle De Swarte:how it feels here putting on a show whatever the size it feels like you know when you have a birthday party and like you're the you're the first mate to turn up to the party and you're like You can see your friends stressing a bit, but you've turned up on time. You know no one else is going to turn up on time. And so you start dancing really big on the dance floor. And you're like, oh, all this space. I love it. I'm having the best time ever. That is the vibe of putting on your own show. You're just like, it feels like a birthday party. You're like, are people going to come? Exactly, yeah.
10:27Joanne McNally:Hey, it's your ceiling vent. So I'm dripping. Could be the rain. Could be the upstairs bathroom. Yikes. You could hire the guy your neighbor recommended, but I'm pretty sure that's just his cousin. Do we know if he's licensed or does he just own a ladder? Listen to your home. Go with Thumbtack. Upload a photo or voice note and we'll diagnose your project and match you with the right pro for the job. Thumbtack. We know homes. Hire the right pro today.
11:02Joanne McNally:Michelle, we'd like to see you in an email. Yeah Yeah Can't wait Okay so Hello Joanne and Vogue In brackets Michelle I love listening to you both because you give sound advice I'm 39 and it feels like my life has hit reverse Not just a gentle rollback More like full on formula one backwards I'm job hunting day in and day out And I'm not getting anywhere I'm mentally done in from applying for jobs Doing interviews and getting rejection after rejection oh it's professional rejection if there was an Oscars for most rejected woman I'd win it I know all the sayings what's for you won't pass you by trust the timing blah blah blah but honestly oh god love her some days I want to throw my laptop on the floor and say fuck this for the crack have either of you ever gone through a phase where nothing goes right how did you keep going what did you tell yourselves when everything felt pointless at this stage I'm tired of my own pep talks I nearly could nearly give myself the ick keep up the good work
12:04Michelle De Swarte:fucking hell right have I got some bloody advice for you because 39 is an absolute Babylon section of life like it is so just to make you feel better listener writer in a reader Anon Anon is me so I moved back to London at 39 I didn't have I had two suitcases and had zero career I think something happens and I ended up writing a show about it it's spent right But this is my advice to you would be don't stress too much. You're going to have to take some gambles on yourself. You're probably trying to play a bit too safe because you want to stay on the side of caution. But if you've already fucked your life beyond recognition, who gives a shit at this point?
12:49Michelle De Swarte:It's going to need a big change. You're going to have to dash some chips on the table and make some bets on yourself. And also what I would say and now listen, I fucking hate to say this, but when everything is in disarray, Stop drinking for a little while. Yeah. You can drink again. All right? I'm back on the sauce. But have a little time off until you get your shit in order. Like, you're going to just have to make some big changes and big sacrifices and just be like, fuck it. But me at 39, I was staying at my sister's house in my niece's old single bed that still had graffiti written on the wall from when my niece was a teenager.
13:24Michelle De Swarte:My brother, I turned 40 in that bed. And I remember being like, no fucking way. I was so raging about my situation. It was highly motivating.
13:34Joanne McNally:Do you know what I was rejected at the most by was, it wasn't professional direction. When I first got to London, I bumped into a lot of people in auditions and whatever it is. And they knew I was new to London. And I had no mates. I hadn't had the great joy of you yet. And me and Vogue were friendly. Me and Vogue obviously were mates, but she was kind of all I had. And people would say to me, oh, do you want to meet? I'll meet you for a coffee let me know if you want to meet for a coffee and then when I actually asked them to do it not a single one of them came back do you know the only one who came back was Roisin Conaty yeah she's solid she's solid isn't she so I know what it's like it's shit and you question yourself you're like oh blah blah blah but you just have to stick with it because you gotta roll with the punches yeah
14:18Michelle De Swarte:and I really think we live in a world now where like you're just disillusioned because you see the end result of everything you're just like oh look what they're doing look what they're doing yeah get off social media for a little bit go bloody gym start a routine this is baby steps it's fucking boring it's monotonous but like if you start tapping in too much to what other people are doing you're gonna free fall and start losing your shit so it's like yeah this is rubbish anytime you open up your phone everyone's killing the game they're fucking on jet skis you know i mean in bloody dubai with a falcon on their arm like just don't like just don't don't get too caught up in it you've got to start like a routine and be consistent with it so whether that's going gym and looking after yourself taking all the vitamins and laying off the sauce that's what i would say and just tell yourself that like this is what you're fucking doing because that's the reality but when i tell you there's so many women i know that like just before 40 everything goes to fucking shit and you have a whole identity crisis because you're like i'm a bougie bitch why am i living so poor this does not align with who i see myself as and it's just a big identity shift and it's fucking terrible.
15:25Michelle De Swarte:But like, babes, do you know what I mean? You gotta trust the process of life. It's fucking long, but like, all we see is the end results. All we see is the end results and it's like, it takes baby steps to make shit happen. Do you know what I mean? So, yeah, that and like, that's what I'd say. Perfect. Yeah, she smashed it. No, but it's true though, isn't it? Oh, it's totally true. The 39 will fuck, will fuck with your brain. It is,
15:49Joanne McNally:because you do feel, I was actually, I think I have.
15:52Michelle De Swarte:Because you think you're so old. It's like I was chatting to one of my support ladies, because they're all in their 20s. And she was like, I'm 27. I'm really going through it. And I was like, babes, 27 is a really hard year because you haven't hit 30 yet. You feel older at 27 than you do at 31. And it's like one of them big changes where like when you hit your 30s, you're like, oh, this is the teenage years of adulthood. And I think when you hit your 40s, when it finally comes, you're like, oh, OK, really? I'm a proper adult now. There's no one to blame. this happened to my childhood and my mum was in no one gives a shit no one fucking cares anymore and there's a certain piece in that 100 %
16:27Joanne McNally:I had my turning I had my little midlife crisis and I wouldn't even call it a crisis when I turned 30 when I turned 40 I was like I'm good to go because I kind of had my little mental breakdown in my early 30s got my shit together and like I'm in a good place so turning 40 to me was fine but I know for a lot of people turning 40 it's a big time for a reflection where am I where am I going what have I done but like 40 is the new 20 yeah but mate
16:53Michelle De Swarte:being broke at 40 is different yeah do you know what I mean especially especially if you're straight oh oh gross terrible disgusting why strange well because I think if you're straight and you're on and you're single if you're on any apps the second that 40 hits your hits your like dating profile and that age comes up you're in a different bracket people think you're on some jizzy supermarket sweep and you're trying to get pregnant or like you want something from them and like yeah you do their soul but that's beside the point you know what I'm saying beside the point also were you talking about relationships yeah I just mean like 40 just does something like if you're single if you're straight if you're it's a little bit harder because you're going through like the norms of society as well you know what I mean your reflection is that so you're like I'm gonna deal with myself I ain't got any kids I ain't married but like
17:44Joanne McNally:we about know that it's like that's kind of what paedophile's about to be honest it's like the reality check of actually what that's packaged as is no longer when you get to your 40s you look back at the package that was sold to you in your 20s for what you're supposed to be doing and you realise it's a load of bollocks yeah look at us living our best lives yeah kind of yeah
18:05Michelle De Swarte:I never had that package so I was just like whatever no one was like no one expected me to do that
18:10Joanne McNally:I wasn't like being I wasn't like being forced I wasn't like being forced down the aisle I wasn't being trafficked or anything but it was like that was just what the women around me they were all
18:18Michelle De Swarte:can you imagine if you wish traffic then you're still single. What a burn. What a fucking burn. They're like, they sent her back. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're just like, nah, has this got a 30 day warranty? Too much stress. We've hung out and we're good.
18:34Joanne McNally:Michelle, thank you so much for coming in. Your gas, as always.
18:37Michelle De Swarte:It has been an absolute pleasure. I don't sound as excited as I am. Which is not that. No, no, genuinely. Do you know what's well? like when was the last time me and you hung out? I know, I can't remember. Do you know what I mean? Drinking coffee? Oh, well, it was at the Apollo. Oh, no, wait. Didn't we go for a walk since then? Oh, my God, fucking yes, we did. We went for a walk.
18:57Joanne McNally:Sorry. All right, okay. Because my memory is that my, the memory of you leaving the house when you said when did we last, that was the memory that popped into my head.
19:04Michelle De Swarte:Babe, can we speak about the fact that me and you, I've, we and Joanne have lived near each other for years now and I'm always like, let's go to the Common. Joanne, do you want to come for a picnic on the Common? Let's go to the Common. and then literally a couple of weeks ago you was like right I'm going to meet you Sunday morning we're going for a walk and it was like knocking for your mate to come out and play I was like buzz the buzzer you came skipping down the stairs we did a couple of we did a couple of laps it was a lovely afternoon because I always want to
19:30Joanne McNally:bring Michelle to the pub that's the problem and she's like Joanne we have to just do sober things sometimes together like walks and stuff and I'm like no I just want to go on the piss with you all the time do you remember
19:40Michelle De Swarte:when we played tennis?
19:41Joanne McNally:we played tennis Joanne and I it's all these fun I was really Yeah, because I was off the booze at the time. I was like, okay, come on, let's get a hobby.
19:47Michelle De Swarte:Rackets, tennis balls in the hottest day of the year. It's like lava. I think we lasted, 20 minutes in, you was like, I'm fucking over this. Yeah. If we hit about three balls consecutively. You made a mistake. Yeah, yeah. And I said, we're doing 45 minutes. Then we did it. And he was like, oh. And I was like, yeah, let's go pub. Pub for that.
20:05Joanne McNally:With the two rackets. It was never been touched.
20:07Michelle De Swarte:The rackets have never been touched since. The way we were dressed up for tennis. Like it was a fashion show. like Barbie tennis day. We were like, yeah, visors. Joanne came with no water. No water.
20:20Joanne McNally:No water. We were so out of our comfort zone. We were just like, this is fucking ludicrous. But look, we made an effort. Let's go to the pub.
20:25Michelle De Swarte:We were as athletic as kicking a tin can down the street. That was us. Two of us just sweating.
20:32Joanne McNally:Yeah, not as much precision. I literally, after 15 minutes, was like, I'm over this. This is a terrible mistake.
20:37Michelle De Swarte:But the way we skipped into the pub, like, we are sporty girls. We were like, oh, these rackets. Oh, God. Slug them down on the table. Hey, Michelle, you got the racket, so I'll go and get the wine. Okay, yeah. Okay, tennis was great. Mind the racket, Michelle.
20:51Joanne McNally:Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll wear one into the pubs. They think I've just done something really, like, athletic on the way in. I know. But look, we're trying.
20:58Michelle De Swarte:We're trying. We're trying our best.
21:00Joanne McNally:We're trying our best.
21:01Michelle De Swarte:It's been a pleasure.
21:02Joanne McNally:We just love a wine.
21:03Michelle De Swarte:Yeah.
21:03Joanne McNally:I love good wines and shots. It's one of my favourite things to do.
21:06Michelle De Swarte:It is. I love that.
21:08Joanne McNally:Anyway, thanks so much for doing it, Michelle.
21:10Michelle De Swarte:You're welcome.
21:24Thumbtack presents Uncertainty Strikes.
21:27Joanne McNally:I was surrounded. The aisle and the options were closing in. There were paint rollers, satin and matte finish, angle brushes, and natural bristles. There were too many choices. What if I never got my living room painted? What if I couldn't figure out what type of paint to use? What if I just used Thumbtack? I can hire a top-rated pro that knows everything about interior paint, easily compare prices, and read reviews. Thumbtack knows homes. Download the app today. Hey, it's your ceiling vent, so I'm dripping. Could be the rain, could be the upstairs bathroom. Yikes. You could hire the guy your neighbor recommended, but I'm pretty sure that's just his cousin.
22:09Joanne McNally:do we know if he's licensed or does he just own a ladder listen to your home go with thumbtack upload a photo or voice note and we'll diagnose your project and match you with the right pro for the job thumbtack we know homes hire the right pro today this has been a global player original production thumbtack presents uncertainty strikes i was surrounded the aisle and the options were closing in. There were paint rollers, satin and matte finish, angle brushes, and natural bristles. There were too many choices. What if I never got my living room painted? What if I couldn't figure out what type of paint to use?
22:48What if I just used Thumbtack?
22:51Joanne McNally:I can hire a top-rated pro that knows everything about interior paint, easily compare prices, and read reviews. Thumbtack knows homes. Download the app today.
From the publisher
Michelle stuck around for a bit longer, to hear one of the legendary MTGM emails and it just so happens that both she and Joanne have some experience in this particular area…
Tickets for Joanne's tour Pinotphile are now LIVE: www.joannemcnally.com
If you’d like to get in touch, you can send an email to hello@MTGMpod.com
Please review Global's Privacy Policy: https://global.com/legal/privacy-policy/
For merch, tour dates and more visit: www.mytherapistghostedme.com
This episode contains explicit language and adult themes that may not be suitable for all listeners.