Patrick Mahomes' Return, NFL Season Preview & Michigan Clock Debacle with Jon Ferrari | EP 200

20:11Let's dissect them a little bit more.

20:13Jason Kelce:I'm really looking forward to seeing what the new offense is going to look like. I don't think we've – not only do I not think, they've flat out said they have not shown what this offense is going to look like yet in the preseason. You know, we know what this looks like in the McVay-Shanahan tree with the under center, the motions, the outside zones, paired with the boots, paired with the dropback play actions, paired with the screens, how it all looks similar, how they build leverage and angles in the run game and in the passing game. I always have enjoyed watching these offenses on other teams, very much looking forward to seeing what these guys look like this Sunday against the Commanders.

20:53Jason Kelce:There's a lot in do on both sides of the ball. Eagles, obviously, new offensive coordinator, first time Jalen's ever run a system like this, first time this team has done something like this offensively. pretty much the exact same things happening over in Washington. They just hired a new offensive coordinator, David Blah, who's also in this background. So obviously Jaden Daniels has done a lot of the college, no huddle spread, RPO zone read offense to this point in his career with Cliff Kingsbury. Now all of a sudden they're going to be doing this as well. He's going to be more in the center.

21:23Jason Kelce:So we're going to see both offenses doing similar changes, and it'll be interesting to see how much they change, how much they kind of keep some semblance of what they did, or is it all going to be brand new? And it's going to be interesting watching both of those teams. Obviously, Washington had a ton of injuries last year. Jane Daniels was hurt for a very large portion of it. So was McLaren. So it's going to be interesting to see what they look like as well offensively. And then for us, going up against Washington's defense, they're not even going to be this Dan Quinn defense. Dan Quinn comes from the Pete Carroll cover three, not a whole lot of variety, right?

22:06Jason Kelce:They're going to play a four down front. It's going to be, you know, pretty much cover three all day. Like that's what they do. They live in it and they know where their weaknesses are and they adjust accordingly. Quinn had started to adjust a little bit when he was in Dallas, where he started blitzing a little bit more, playing more cover one, trying to throw teams off. now it appears that they're going to be pretty much running Minnesota's defense under Brian Flores they hired Durante Jones who's from the Brian Flores tree couldn't be more different way more middle field open too high shell looking defenses they pressure at an absurd rate but they play palms and quarters behind it so this is going to be a way different looking commanders team and I'm looking forward to see what that looks like how well they execute that I mean it's been highly successful in Minnesota.

22:55Jason Kelce:I do think you've got to have some guys at linebacker to make that system work. They went out and drafted one. That's right. So like Brian Flores from the New England tree. In New England, they had Jamie Collins, Hightower, all these guys that could be on the line of scrimmage and physical and holding down a point. They could be off ball and coverage. It allows them to be multiple. And even though it's a different thing that they're doing in Minnesota than what they ever did in New England, They like that versatility still. You got a guy like Van Ginkle up in Minnesota who brings a lot of value.

23:27Jason Kelce:Ivan Pace Jr., another Cincinnati guy, I think has been a good piece for them throughout the last couple years. It doesn't surprise me they go out with the seventh pick overall and get Stiles from Georgia. Those guys, because they have to operate in so much space when they do pressure and play an umbrella on top, they have a lot of room to roam in that middle ground of coverage. And then on top of that, they got to be able to hold up against offensive linemen in the run game if they're going to mug all these guys up. So I can't wait to see what all this looks like. It's a lot of creative. It's a lot of creativeness and new things that are trending in the NFL.

24:04Jason Kelce:How well do these teams incorporate them? And then obviously, I mean, Philadelphia Eagles, their front, how they, Washington's already banged up, right? They're missing Laramie Tunzel. Allegretti, our guy Allegretti from... Nicky Allegretti. He's been hurt for a lot of the preseason. and he's coming back for this one, it sounds like. Nice. But they're already banged up. I mean, this is what we've been waiting for. Philadelphia's been waiting to see what this offense is actually going to look like, what Jalen Hurts is going to look like, how Saquon Barkley is going to do in this operation, and we're going to get our first taste of it this week.

24:36Jason Kelce:I never liked playing new coordinators week one. Like, if I had my choice, I would rather have a coordinator that we had tape on the previous year. when you're facing new guys it's like you know what exactly are they going to do it's a little bit more unsure it's a lot more yeah adjustments and and figuring out what they're what they're going to do in the drives but i mean and that and that's the thing if you if you look at what danquin's done a lot in the past it doesn't matter if he's a new coordinator at another team you know you typically have got a good understanding of just his track record right but with uh durante Jones not necessarily being a D coordinator in Minnesota or just coming in and kind of being a fresh face with Dan Quinn I think it's going to be interesting it's going to be interesting to see how it all unfolds and you know the good thing about this Philly offense is it's it's good versus all man you got fucking ball players man you do got playmakers you got you got ball players you got Jalen Saquon man if they come out running that running the ball and getting downhill I can see them handling this game willingly, man.

25:46Jason Kelce:One thing I'm going to be looking at, and I think if you're watching the game, go ahead and take a look at it. You're going to see some exotic looks. If this is at all like Brian Flores, there's going to be some exotic things early. And that's one thing I always felt like when we played Brian. There was going to be six or seven looks for the game that were going to give you issues early. But if you were able to kind of remember these and kind of log them, you'd start to see them repeat themselves. And then as the game went, it was like, oh, here comes this one. Here comes this one. And if you're not ready for it, it can be overwhelming.

26:20Jason Kelce:But I'm going to be looking to see if that pattern holds up. Well, good luck to the Eagles and, you know, good luck to the commanders and good luck to everybody else in the fucking league. Well, we're about to get to the rest of the league. Outside of the Eagles, we do have week one coming up. A lot of exciting storylines to keep your eye on. Here's some of our favorites. Trav, what are you looking forward to watching week one? Outside of Chiefs-Eagles, I will say, even though they're in the division, I am intrigued to see how the entire AFC West offenses look. I think the quarterback situation in Las Vegas, Herbert taking another step.

27:02I think Bo Nix and the gang. I'm just interested to see what my division has to offer in terms of firepower, man.

27:11Jason Kelce:Same. The Chargers are one of the teams I'm looking forward to watching the most. Mike McDaniel, I think, is one of the best schemers. Like, obviously, it didn't work out in Miami as a head coach. But if you watch the scheme that they implemented every Sunday, there was some really creative, unique blocking schemes, the way they utilize motions, the way they would throw these, like, screens kind of out to the flat, but with route concepts downfield. I really am excited to see what this looks like in LA. Really excited to see AFC North. I mean, we grew up in the AFC North. Not so much excited to watch Cleveland, to be honest with you.

27:45Jason Kelce:I hope they do well. I'm always excited to watch the Browns. I want to see it, man. I think Baltimore is going to make a major comeback with Jesse Minner. I think that just starting with something fresh, they were ravaged by injuries last year, which derailed that season in itself. I think Minner is doing a lot of creative things defensively and is bringing some forward thinking to fronts and coverages and blitzes. And, I mean, you watch the preseason game that they did against the Eagles. They were doing – he did a simulated overload front pressure in a preseason game. I can't wait to see what this guy has in store for the regular season.

28:21Jason Kelce:And on top of that, they got Lamar coming back. And then Joe Burrow. I mean, I'm always excited to watch Joey B play with Higgins and Jamar Chase. NFC West, baby. We got a good one early over there down under with the Niners and the Rams. Obviously, the Rams, all the moves they made or the big move they made. And then seeing where the 49ers are right now and how great they've been in years past. You know, that division is just it's packed with the Seahawks to making, you know, defending their title. I'm interested to see just how competitive each game is over there. I had the Rams down as another storyline, just obviously everything with Aaron Donald and Myles Garrett, which we have found out Aaron is not playing week one, Travis.

29:08Jason Kelce:That's correct? Correct. That's what I just saw. He's not traveling. So, you know, we'll have to wait another week to see what that looks like with him and Myles on the field at the same time, which is an offensive lineman. I can't wait to see what teams do to try and mitigate the chaos that's going to be up front for them. I can't wait to see how they, on the defensive side, try and prevent teams from doubling and sliding and doing all these things. What are they doing to try and protect the players? But I'm also always fired up to watch the Rams. The Seahawks were awesome to watch last year on defense.

29:45Jason Kelce:I really like the way they play. Leonard Williams just got a brand new contract. Outstanding player. Lost some pieces on the defensive side, so it's going to be intriguing to see how they fill those roles. They still got that big pterodactyl at nickel. What's his name? I forget his name, too. It's like Iman Worry or whatever. Gosh. That guy fucking wrecks havoc, man. The nickel position has turned into such a crucial piece on defense. I mean, if you look what Minter did with Derwin James, He's got another kind of big safety like that in Kyle Hamilton who can come down and play that nickel position or however they run their personnel is out there, somebody that can play in the box and play free.

30:27Jason Kelce:Yeah, if you look at the best defense in the NFL right now, I think the common denominator is they have a guy that plays that position, can play the run really well, can match up with anybody in the pass game. It's a spot that is turned into one of the most valuable on the team. You got Petrie in Houston, Cooper DeGene in Philadelphia, Hamilton in Baltimore. Can I say I'm looking forward to seeing what Dallas looks like? I will. I mean, I am. I'm looking forward to seeing what it looks like. I mean, offensively, they're loaded. They are fucking loaded. Dude, they made no offensive acquisitions this offseason.

31:01Jason Kelce:Every draft pick, every free agent, it's like 30-some players. New. All defensive guys. Looks like the old head ball coach said, I'm good on offense, baby. I'm good. It's crazy. Y 'all get that shit figured out over there. We're rolling. It is insane. I've never seen anything like that. I mean, the biggest thing is they found a way to get Pickens back. I think whether it's franchise or whatever it was. However you got to do it. You get that two-headed monster outside the numbers, man, with a good run game, Dak's going to figure some shit out, yeah. All righty, that wraps it up for Bold Topics.

31:40Jason Kelce:Bold Topics, once again, was brought to you by NFL Sunday Ticket on YouTube TV. How about it? All righty, we got out of the house this weekend. Out of the house is brought to you by Expedia. We went back to a UC game. Connor Barwin and Brent Sillick joined us, as well as Kylie for the Bearcats taking on Boston College. Well, the real reason we went back was Jason got inducted to the Hall of Fame, and I wanted to make sure I was there for my big brother. And sure enough, it was a nice old Cincinnati ass whooping. That's right. We've been pretty good on opening day. Better in the start of the season than at the end.

32:17But Jason, how'd you enjoy getting back?

32:20Jason Kelce:First of all, preface it was, I think the induction ceremony is still in October. So this was just going to the game where they're kind of honoring us and saying that Connor and I are being inducted in this year's class, along with Bob Huggins will also be inducted this year in the Bearcats Hall of Fame. We got to see the new facilities that they just built for the football team. Shout out to Larry Shakley. That's right, that's right. And it was incredible to see how much has changed. Every time I go back, it doesn't – I mean, the campus looks the same in a lot of ways, but it's been incredible how much they continue to change and continue to move forward.

32:56Jason Kelce:There's a lot going on in higher education right now. I mean, not just football. Football has all this NIL stuff, everything happening on that front. There's also, you know, colleges are closing left to right, not so much the big schools, but like Kylie's College in Cabrini isn't there anymore. Kids are starting to weigh like the expense of going to college and all of these different factors. So it's just an interesting time at that level. And I really enjoyed talking to President Neville. I really enjoyed seeing all the good things that UC is doing and continuing to do to move forward. That's the thing, man.

33:33How much has grown in just in terms of the kids? I think there was close to 25 or 30 ,000 when we were there. And now it's over 50 ,000, which is insane.

33:44Jason Kelce:Something that was really cool they offered this year was any in-state kid that qualifies to get into Cincinnati, whose parents make less than 75 ,000, doesn't pay for school. And I feel like they're continuing to push forward into this making UC a viable option for kids from all walks of life who can afford it and having job opportunities right out of college. Cincinnati started the co-op program. That was the first university to really institute that. They've done a lot of things. They've always been really connected with the business leaders in the community of Cincinnati, whether it's the hospitals, the businesses like P &G.

34:23Jason Kelce:It's a very well-established and entrenched part of that community. And it's good to see that it's being stewarded in a way, both athletically and academically, that is headed in a direction that I think it needs to go in the future. Hell yeah, brother. And outside of that, it was just good seeing everybody, right? Got to see a lot of former teammates, all the people that were there when we were there and are continuing to do great things. Yeah, and make Cincinnati home for the next wave of kids, man. It's the best. I mean, I second everything you were saying about the University of Cincinnati, how it's growing.

35:02And just, you know, seeing that it's still that segue into the modern world, man. And the kids, that's where we grew up. And to see that, you know, athletes and students are, you know, getting even better opportunity and better life there as much as we've seen the campus grow and more things be at their disposal.

35:28Jason Kelce:No, I think what you're saying is, and this is the same thing I feel whenever I'm on a college campus. You're dealing with young people that are excited about what's to come in their life. They're away from their families for their first time. That's exactly it. And it's whenever you're there, you just get swept up in that. Whether it's with the football team, whether it's just walking around campus. I love being back around college campuses. And being back at Cincinnati where we went through that ourselves, it just makes it even more like hit home. So it was awesome being back. Got to see a bobblehead of myself.

36:02Jason Kelce:I don't know if you saw this, Travis. I did see it. I did see it. It was a banger. Real life bobblehead too. was the contrast this high in real life like look at how tan kylie and i i feel like this is like somebody edited oh you guys are in great no you this is how tan you are right now that's how dark my skin looks right there yeah nothing like a little garage beer pub how unathletic do my calves look in this bobblehead like they just gave me cankles look at that they gave you cartoon legs man hey those look like the legs of peter griffin that's right no definition fuck jason did you get adriaticos for the plane our plane got delayed because there were some thunderstorms coming in so we had time to go get adriaticos before we left uh did not disappoint what do you get on on your adriaticos uh i usually do the pepperoni sausage meat lovers type deal i'm a big pepperoni banana peppers fan we need to get back to the square pizzas even though when it's even when it's like the medium though.

37:04I want the medium squared. I need the medium squared too. The circles, I don't like the circles. I don't get as much of it.

37:11Jason Kelce:I was a major fatty. I was a major fatty at Cincinnati. After the game, we went and got Adriaticos. We went and got Adriaticos. Then we went to Skyline.

37:22Jason Kelce:And we were contemplating going to graders right after that. We thankfully did not do that. Graders would have been the perfect cap to the evening. Which one still hit the same they both still hit the exact same nice all right i just wanted to had a nice three-way and a cheese coney adriatico's i mean it was fantastic that sweet and spicy sauce man they got figured out dog yeah i'm all in i'm all in i don't know if there's more i don't know why there's not more um i don't think everybody's a fan of like the thicker doughy like slices come on right if it's made like that why wouldn't they be well i i'm in it i mean we grew up on paying pizza from pizza hut you know what i mean like i don't know i'm in on the thick like new york style is awesome as well i like i like a lot of different ranges of pizza i think i'm getting pizza tonight actually now the more that we're talking about it i think it might be pizza night tonight well that's out of the house brought to you by expedia bearcats let's keep this thing fucking going baby let's get to 2-0 thank you to our sponsor colgate total on offense it's important to prevent problems from the moment the ball is snapped that's true otherwise you're just out there running cardio can't get open for a big play but it's not just football there's a lot of things you need to prevent before they start yeah like in your mouth my mouth specifically i mean probably yours too but i'm talking everybody's mouth there's bacteria in there that can lead to oral health problems like cavities gingivitis right yeah all the nasty stuff but the good news is you can prevent these problems before they start with colgate total active prevention it's like having a good offensive line for your mouth oh exactly with twice daily brushing colgate total prevents oral health problems like cavities and gingivitis And it's not just one contributing player either.

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40:03Jason Kelce:Potential savings vary. Subject to terms, conditions, and availability, Allstate, North American Insurance Company affiliates, Northbrook, Illinois. Thank you to our partner, NFL Sunday Ticket on YouTube TV. Look, Sundays used to be stressful. Your friends come over, everybody's a fan of a different team, and you're scrambling, trying to find the right game. Yep, that's right. NFL Sunday Ticket on YouTube TV fixes all of that. With NFL Sunday Ticket on YouTube TV, you get every game every Sunday all in one place. Done. And here's the thing that changed the game for us. Multi-view. Gosh, it's such a good feature.

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41:40Jason Kelce:and we're into our last segment before we wrap which is going to be our first time ever bringing in an expert to explain the game of football besides us that's right we don't know everything we do we damn sure don't know everything so this year we decided we're going to start bringing in senior correspondents uh to try and educate us and you guys on different aspects of the game that we might not be the best at informing you on and our first ever senior correspondent will be Mr. John Ferrari as our senior correspondent of rules. That's right. Please welcome John. Go birds, Jason. Go birds. Welcome to the show, baby.

42:20Jason Kelce:What is your title with the Eagles so I can get that right? I don't want to fuck that up. Assistant GM. Assistant GM? Yeah. Oh, Jesus. I thought it was going to be something with rules or something. Here's Assistant GM. Fuck yeah, John. Way to go. I'm no chimp in a suit here. This is... That's just hilarious, Jason. You were at something with rules. Well, that's – so, John, why don't you give a background real quick of how you've gotten to this point, where you started in the league. Yeah, I was at the league office for 10 years. I worked for the Management Council when we did the CBA back in 2011.

42:58And then Management Council, you get to know all the teams. We had new work rules, so I was in charge of helping to institute those work rules. So got hired here in 2016 when Coach Peterson got here in that transition. So been lucky to be here for 11 seasons, two Super Bowl wins. Shout out. There we go. And when I was at the league office, I did some special projects for the competition committee. I worked for Mike Pereira when he was running officiating for Dean after that. So had some experience coming here with the rules and the rulebook and officiating in particular.

43:34Jason Kelce:Well, one of the things I miss most from being with the Eagles, and I'm not just blowing smoke up your butt, John, the meetings on Saturdays where we would go over things that teams did wrong the week before, things that teams went right, and also just educating us on what are penalties, what's not penalties. It feels like you always had a good grasp of all this stuff. So we had some controversial ones early on, and we also thought maybe we'd open the floor up to you telling us which rules fans misunderstand the most. Because we got a whole season coming. Twitter is already losing their minds on blown calls by officials.

44:12Jason Kelce:It's one of my least favorite things, especially now that money's on the line. Everybody's complaining about officials. Where are fans right and wrong? First of all, Travis, what he's leaving out is Saturday meetings. They used to boo me when I would get on the stage. What's the Roger Goodell? He's like, Roger Goodell. It's because clearly the entire football team thought you were a part of the rules. Yeah, exactly. That's hilarious. It was from a place of love. That's what I told myself as I cried to sleep every night. And to be fair, it's just a nice Philly welcome, isn't it? You get some booze right away.

44:44That's right. That's right. Okay, so here's the Michigan game. I think the first thing for the they were in the tank for Michigan crowd, the hard thing is, to me, the biggest play of that game was at the end of the first half with nine seconds after the interception. So Michigan throws an interception. He's down by contact on the 27-yard line, and he takes his helmet off to celebrate. Can't do it. It's an automatic penalty. Nobody calls it. It's not called. Interesting. Okay. So the next play, Western Michigan kicks a field goal. If they had forced that penalty, all of a sudden it's a 58-yard field goal or something like that.

45:25So that to me, if we're in the tank for Michigan, we're off to a bad start. I think Michigan had 10 penalties. Western Michigan had four. So, again, the flow of the game didn't suggest that we're trying. There's a favoritism. Yeah, it didn't suggest that. So, but then the end of the game.

45:46Jason Kelce:So I was about to say, so end of the game did seem like that a little bit. What? What? And first of all, how does something like that happen? Let's give some of our viewers some context here. So Michigan is losing the game to Western Michigan by, I believe, about five points. It's 12 to seven. There you go. So they're losing by five and they're going to, they're going to try and throw a Hail Mary with seconds left. I think there was roughly nine to ten seconds left. John, I'll let you take it. Nine seconds. Yeah. So they throw the Hail Mary. It's incomplete. And the clock shows zero. Western Michigan celebrating on the field.

46:26So what you guys have to understand is you see the seven officials are in college, the eight officials on the field. There's a whole other replay apparatus that's helping them. The replay official who's operating on a different system called the Hawkeye system. He's taking all the cameras in the stadium. He's using all those cameras. Those cameras are operated by NBC, but they're independent. So he or she can look at whatever view they want to look at at any time. That system is also synced to the game clock. And then Hawkeye and the network are synced to each other. So everybody should be synced.

47:02So that game clock has integrity in terms of the video and how it's synced to the video. So that play happens. Replay looks at it. There's a defender out of bounds. As soon as that defender is airborne and touches the ball, the clock should stop because it's like the ball touched out of bounds. It's the same as if it's – so it touched that defender's hand. Where I think they went awry is at some point in that game, that syncing that I described came unsynced. And what replay was showing was different than what the network was showing. And I think Mike Pereira said this to The Athletic yesterday.

47:37in that case when they're not synced you go with the tv you go with network and they went with the replay official who was operating with what he thought was correct but what i think where i think they aired was that they didn't go with tv you gotta go with whatever the the viewers are seeing because that's what millions of people are watching we gotta make better decisions of that so that's where they they went away from what is the standard practice in the big ten so you don't think the Big Ten called the officials and said that there was an extra second on the clock and it would just happen to be unsynced at this point.

48:18We don't know how, but it just happened to be unsynced and we're not going for the broadcast copy. We're going to go with what we have in the booth that nobody else gets to see. That nobody else can see. That's right. Well, they showed it. What they did was the next day when the Big Ten released the statement, they showed the Hawkeye sync. So what that guy was seeing was accurate. He saw a second. Again, where I think they aired was that they also didn't say, well, the network is showing something else and we're supposed to go with that. But what he did in that moment, I don't think was questionable.

48:54He saw a second on the clock and was going with that. They just maybe got a little overly excited there and didn't go back to TV.

49:02Jason Kelce:Yeah, but regardless, it does seem really fishy. It's super fucked up for Western Michigan. I don't know how they're not losing their minds more than they are. So the replay official is seeing the Hawkeye. Is there not a TV version up there? There is. So he's seeing both. He's seeing both. Yeah, that's right. But he only looked at the Hawkeye. He didn't know that it was unsynced. Yeah, and I'm going off the NFL system where the replay official can also see the TV feed can see both. So that's what they can see. That's how Hawkeye works. The default view is the TV view. But his clock was different than TV's.

49:40And at some point in the game, from that pre-game syncing, it came undone. It was a tough weekend for the back all around.

49:49Jason Kelce:And there's nothing that they can do retroactively at this point. No. The game is what it is. They can't come out afterwards and be like, hey, that last play didn't count? No, they did. They already did that, actually. They just did it within fans still being in the stadium. Yeah, that's right. And you can see, by the way, this whole thing. Wait, wait, wait. This isn't over yet. Western Michigan's on the field celebrating, and you can see them celebrating, and then you can see the Western Michigan coach pushing them back to the sideline because whatever official on field said, hey, we're still looking at this.

50:24Hey, we're looking at this being reviewed. So that part of it at least did happen fast.

50:28Jason Kelce:but yeah it was unfortunate all around very unfortunate i think at this point i mean every replay official just needs to double check any situation like this with the tv clock right like before you make any decision make it shouldn't be off of the hawkeye like what's the point of looking at hawkeye just look at what everybody else is watching for like a second thing you know i mean something with the game clock should be caught should shouldn't even come down to it who cares if it's seen that just go off the tv copy that's right and the reason he wants to look at hawkeye so he can look at all the different angles right he for sure yeah you get more access to that but in terms of just the timing why are we even looking at all kind of time let's just look at the game i can just see some ornery old dude sitting in his chair just being like the hawkeye oh we gotta we got the fucking hawkeye over here telling me there's a tenth of a second left the The fact that they called it the Hawkeyes is so good.

51:24Jason Kelce:Let's move on to another one that I saw, which was the next day in the Notre Dame game. There was something that got all of offensive line Twitter in an uproar, Travis, which is that a snatch was called a hold. John, you have the clip that we're referring to? Yeah, we have the clip here. All right, before you give your ruling, Travis, is this a hold? Is this not a hold? No, I'm going to always favor the offensive line. I like where your head's at. I like where your head's at. Hands are inside. So this is what I thought immediately. This gets misofficiated a lot in the NFL and in college, where if you go straight down hands inside, that's a legal snatch to me.

52:05Jason Kelce:Like, that's more the defensive lineman being out of balance and out of control. I'm just helping him go where his momentum is taking him. John, I sent this clip to you, and you had an interesting response. So what is your reasoning behind why this was called what it was? So first of all, I agree with you about the snatch. The snatch is not a foul. I think this is a foul. And again, this angle doesn't show it great because he's controlling him inside the collar. The control inside the collar is what makes it rise to the level of holding. You know, I think about, you know, you ever see a dog with a backpack on hiking and the dog has the backpack and on the back of the backpack is a little handle.

52:44and you can control the dog with the handle, right? You can put the handle, you can grab the handle on the backpack and you can move the dog wherever you want it to. That to me is, it's the same thing when you get inside the shoulder pad, inside the collar, you can control that defender and move him where you want to move him. So even though they keep good feet, even though his hands are inside, it's the collar and the grab down, not the snatch itself that makes it a hold,

53:07Jason Kelce:in my opinion. And this is relatively new because when I was still in the league, they really weren't officiating grabbing of the collar. Matter of fact, I did it all the time. I loved grabbing people by the collar. You were great at it. Because for exactly what you said, you can control them very well, especially at the second level. I grab them by one arm. I kind of steer them where I want them to go. So this is relatively new in terms of the NFL saying they want grabbing of the collar being called as a hold. Is that correct? Yeah. A couple years ago, I think it was 24. It might've been 23. The competition committee looked at it and they said, you know, Now, that leverage that that collar grab gives you is an unfair advantage to the offensive lineman.

53:46And the collar grab, the sustained collar grab, not a quick one where you get your hand, then you get your hands off of it. But the sustained collar grab, they want that for holding if they can see it. Now, a lot of times when the hands are inside, the official can't see it. It's the umpire, the referee from behind the play. He might be blocked out. But if he can see that sustained collar grab, they want that for holding, regardless of the feet, regardless of anything else like the snatch, which would, like I said, would otherwise be legal.

54:13Jason Kelce:Well, I got to say, I do think it's bullshit. I think this sucks. Blocking people is hard enough. But Shorts brothers, AQ, all of my offensive line brethren, this is the way they're calling it now, apparently. And then here's an example where, look at 60 here. No problem, right? So that's where. He's just hitting the arm down. He's not grabbing him by the collar. Now, just like a receiver running a route who has the right to knock that defensive back's hands down, you have the right to get off. That's why the snatch is legal, because you have the right to get those hands off of you to free yourself to move wherever you want to move.

54:47So you have the right to do that. That's why the snatch is legal. Here's one where J.C. Tretter actually is the center here, and Betonio's the guard here. Betonio is in the collar here. You can't really see it, but he's in the collar. That's holding. What JC does here, he's trying to get off that snatch. That's legal. So there we have two on the same play.

55:07Jason Kelce:So JC's grabbing him. He's not in the collar. So you can snatch from the shoulder pads if the guy is out of balance. No doubt. You have the right to get those hands off of you. And if that means you need to snatch, if that means you need to throw his arms to the side, whatever you need to do to free yourself, you're allowed to do that. I guess I just don't see how it's that big of a difference, whether I'm grabbing the armpit of the shoulder pad, jersey area, and snatching them like that versus the collar, even though I guess the major difference is I feel like I always had really good control of the collar.

55:38Jason Kelce:Like I did a thousand of these on screens where I'd almost bait them upfield and then essentially throw them to the ground. You can control them better. And I think the coaches on the competition committee had that conversation when they made this a point of emphasis and said, there's a different, that's different than even grabbing outside the frame, holding in here, again, because it's hard to see also. So I think by calling it, they wanted to try to discourage it, even though we all know it happens from time to time. Well, I can't wait to see offensive lines, Twitter's reaction to all this.

56:09Jason Kelce:I love always getting it in. Yeah. All right. Let's go over what your big penalties that you think you always see Twitter getting in an up or over and you think are very commonly misunderstood. So I think what's misunderstood, and Trav can speak to this a lot better than I can because he's done this for a long time is people don't understand and fans don't understand how hard it is to block in the NFL and how hard it is, especially when you're outside the tight end or outside the tackle, how hard it is to block. There's a lot of space. So you have to be aware of blindside blocks, meaning blocking backward towards your own end line.

56:48You have to be aware when you're flexed, you have to be aware of a crackback block where you block inside. You can't block high or low. and then you have to be aware of blocks in the back. So you've got to get them on the side. You have to check a lot of boxes to legally block, especially in the run game when you're blocking outside in. And it is really hard. Like I'm going to show you an example here. So this is Kadarius Tony here at the top of the screen. So he's flexed. So he's flexed and he's blocking back in towards the ball, okay? So just like a pass rusher hitting the quarterback, he has to hit that opponent in that target zone, okay?

57:24he can't hit him in the head neck area and he can't cut him. He's got to hit him in that target zone. Trav, am I right? Correct. So you see here, he comes in and he makes head neck contact. Gosh. That's a foul for an illegal crack back block. John, I hate that this is a penalty.

57:38Jason Kelce:I hate it so much. It's so rough, man. I get it. And I know that it's trying to reduce the head to head hits. And the person initiating the contact has the most control over that. My problem is the defenseless thing. You're a defender. I don't understand why defenders get defenseless. Like, have your head on a swivel. That was like the whole part. Like, I get a receiver going for a ball. I get a quarterback who's in the pocket throwing it. I don't understand it. And I know that defenders get pissed off. Think about this, John. Think about this. Because you're about to show another version of this, I think, which is the one where you go and you're blocking back towards your own end zone.

58:12Jason Kelce:Yeah. Blindside blocks are more protected than receivers going over the middle. Yes. In other words, if a receiver's coming over the middle, I can lay into him as hard as I want as long as I don't hit his head head and I don't lead with my head on a blindside block I literally have to go with hands yeah and it's we fucking playing patty cake why the fuck can't I just clean this dude's clock I thought we were playing football John you used to be able to but here's here's what I would say Jay here's what I would say this defender here this defender here gets the same protect the receiver running the route that you just said yes yeah this defender gets the same protection they're both considered with a receiver running the route they're both considered defenseless okay all right i'll grant it i'll grant it as much as i and to be fair i also liked watching receivers get their heads knocked off i just like watching people get destroyed it's like deep in my bones of 90s football has hasn't gone away i do like that people aren't lying unconscious on the field as much though now here's another one and Trav I'm sure you probably remember this this is back from two this is 23 so Trav's gonna go in motion here he's gonna come back he's never set for a complete stop oh this is also a crack back block he can't do this no because I didn't come set I'm a guy in motion if I'm if I'm gonna do this I gotta I gotta plant my feet and set myself in the technically in like that tackle box area okay okay he doesn't have to get set for a full second he just has to come to a complete stop because they were all set for a second before the motion so all it is is a complete stop and then he can cut him got it okay it's hard to block in the nfl it's really hard the toughest one for me is uh is the crack back man if you catch if you catch somebody not looking at you it's like back in the day you would just you would lick your chops to be able to get a guy not looking at you because he's you catch him slipping and nowadays it doesn't matter if it's like if if a if a 320 120 pound D tackle is chasing the ball.

1:00:15Either say I'm a wide receiver at two, 200 soaking wet. My ability to just try and put hands on a man that big and stop his momentum from getting to the ball carrier isn't, it's damn near impossible, especially if he has that running starter, he's hauling ass. Like the only way to stop that man from getting to the ball carrier is to put some oomph into him or to try and try and like stop him by, by not necessarily like leading with your head, but if but the whole he's a defenseless player i can't imagine i can't see how that's the case

1:00:50Jason Kelce:but this is my thing even if you even if you want to grant him the defenseless positions that receivers and these crackback uh block positions get i i don't understand why when you're all of a sudden peeled around you can't as hit him thick right in the body right in the body yeah well you I want to take his ribs out. No, you got to hit him with the hands, remember? We're talking about when you're facing your blind side block. He's talking about this play in particular here. So this is our teach tab about how to do it here. Coming back towards the ball. 6-2, come on, come on. Show the hands. Oh, yeah, all hands, all hands, all hands.

1:01:28Look at this. Look at Jason here. Look at this. Then the hands go up. I'm innocent. And then he looks at the official. Don't you call that shit. Don't you call that.

1:01:37Jason Kelce:probably shouldn't do that that's admission of guilt is never a good idea you know it used to be that you could hit them as hard as you wanted in the target in that target zone but it was it was only a flat foul for blindside block if it was in the head neck or you cut them now they want any for they wanted any forceful contact because i'll take and i'll tell you the play that did it it was this play that may change the rule this play changed the rule that was legal at the time okay so what's wrong with this I knew it was the McCourtney brothers is this Devin I think it was Devin that Travis Benjamin block became the poster child for why they added any forcible contact going backwards what happened to him did he did his did his career end why was why is that the block no I think he came back and won won two Super Bowls I think yeah what are we talking about there's nothing wrong with that hit other then you got to keep your head on a swivel.

1:02:31I don't fucking get it.

1:02:32Jason Kelce:Yeah, I think we've gone overboard on blindside blocks. That's all I'm saying. I'm willing to concede cutting and head area. If somebody doesn't see you coming, you shouldn't hit that. But this is football. I don't like that my block, I basically am just tagging them. That's a little too far. They do employ some common sense when it comes to what is forcible on that. It has to be forcible. if you make some but i want to be forcible i want you want to send a message i understand what you want i want you to play football to summarize if you're outside the tackle box you come in you can't hit in the head area or below the waist in that target zone and that is if you are outside two yards outside the tackle yep so and that is and again you got to be traveling upfield there like Kadarius Tony was.

1:03:25You've got to be moving upfield because if you're going back, you can't make any forcible contact. You've got to lead with the hands. You've got to go hands. This is why it's so hard because you've got to think about exactly where you are, what direction you're traveling, where the opponent is, what is he looking at. There's so much to think about in those blocks, which obviously we know come on you in a second. Do you think this is entertaining to America? Do you think they're fascinated by this? Who cares? It's entertaining to us. Yeah. I had fun doing it.

1:03:52Jason Kelce:Yeah, I think Americans would really appreciate a more well-rounded showing of what penalties actually are. I think you could actually do a service because I think a lot of people do, and this is just one example, holding, like what is holding, what's not holding. One of the things that gets me is like OPI, offensive pass interference. Like as an offensive lineman, I still don't understand like a guy's pressed on him and he's shouldering through, but because they know that it's a pick route, they're just going to call it? Like, what's the parameter that we're using here? I think that it gets really gray in some of these calls, and I think that you know a lot more of the nuance on to why these get called.

1:04:35Jason Kelce:So do you, Travis, in some of that one in particular, I'm sure. But there's a lot of nuance that the average viewer doesn't understand, and you see him say it all the time on Twitter. So we could do a service to the Twitterverse here with John Ferrari, if you'd be open to it. With our senior correspondent. Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to do this and explain these things to us. Can't wait to see the Commanders game this week. Best of luck, brother. Appreciate you guys. You guys do a great job. Trav, good luck to you guys. Thank you, brother. We'll talk soon, man. All right, that wraps up another episode of New Heights.

1:05:06Jason Kelce:Thank you to John Ferrari. Thank you to all of you 92 %ers for tuning in. You can follow us on New Heights Show with 1S on Instagram and Twitter and all that other jazz. Listen and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. See you guys next week. All right. Now, once again, New Heights, a wonder show brought to you by Reese's. As Jason just said, follow the show on all social media. And thanks to our New Heights production team. You guys are going to have to chop this one together. But we love you guys, man. You guys are the greatest. Thanks for making us look great, sound great, because you guys are great.

1:05:37And to the 92 % we'll see you next week. Peace.

1:05:49Jason Kelce:A fucked up knuckle on a football player's hand is kind of like a hockey player missing a tooth. It's just like almost like a rite of passage. You know what I mean? You got to have something wrong. I know you don't. You got to have something wrong with one of them fingers. Let me see your hand, Travis. Let me see your hand. Yeah, you see that ring finger on the right hand is a little fat? This one? Yep. That knuckle right there. That's the arthritis kicking in. Look at that. Well, hold on. Look at the middle finger on the left hand. Hold it out straight again. Does it go all the way straight? let me see it from the other side uh that's kind of a normal one it's got a little bow to it but i don't think it's football i think it's just inbreeding what do you think uh

1:06:30Jason Kelce:my hands actually made it out pretty good they don't look like chuck bidenericks or brian baldingers you're good you just that pinky's a little fucked up well that one that's that's the giveaway right that's how i close my hand i gotta close my hand like this i can't go i go like that but then that finger just kind of points down yeah they sound down jason why don't you tell the people what happened to that finger it's called jersey finger i was doing a one-on-one rep nose guard hit a quick like little deal like that and my finger got stuck in the jersey it's actually on that like friday practice when there's aren't there's no pads you know what i mean it's just like yeah it was a thursday i don't know it just kind of shitty circumstances then so when you You tear a tendon off of an attachment point, you kind of have like two weeks to fix it.

1:07:19Otherwise, the tendon starts losing its blood supply, and it just doesn't function ever again.

1:07:24Jason Kelce:So I had to decide whether I was going to go on IR for a full season or just cut the tendon out of my finger. There was no in-between? There wasn't like a throw a club on it? They were like, we can fix it, but it's just going to re-tear. Essentially, it was what they said. Like the rehab was so long that once you get it done, you're done for the rest of the season. I would have been out for the full regular season because of a torn finger tendon. And I would have looked like the biggest pussy on the fucking planet. You would have had dads from the 1960s and 70s. Right in line, cut it off. That's right.

1:08:02Jason Kelce:That's right. Get up, man. Kelsey, I thought he was tougher than that. You see Jason just went on IR this week. What? Oh, my. I don't know. What did he do? He tears me? He's got a finger. His fingers hurt. Oh, man. Can't be doing that, dog. Can't be doing that. So you just said adios, and now you can't even make a fist. Well, I can make a fist. I just have to make it kind of. It looks weird. It looks fine there, but that finger doesn't ever. Yeah. It still looks like you give somebody a bloody nose. You're good. I mean, it's fine. It's really annoying in golf, and my hand always hurts, but it's fine.

1:08:37Jason Kelce:They had to go in and cut it out. Brandon, do me a favor. Pull up Brian Baldinger's hands. Let's show up. Let's give the people. Don't do this. Let's give the people what they don't even know they want. Before they knew that they could tape fingers. That's right. Yeah. That's a football player right there, baby. No ifs, ands, or buts. That's a guy that. That shit is going like this. there's a photo of benarics that should be like in the in the louvre look at this motherfucker look at his shit that's what that's what playing center looks like hockey players got gaps in their in their teeth football players can can point around a corner

1:09:30him me him or me him or me who you pointing at anthony muñoz had some messed up fingers

1:09:36Jason Kelce:what is there's no fix he's just stuck with it you gotta be able to fix that how do you get in your pocket how does it not just get caught on stuff how do you get a shirt on how do you get Like through a shirt sleeve. That thing gets jammed in the door every week. Anthony. It's the price to pay to be an all-pro Hall of Fame left tackle. These are podcasting hands. That's right. You want to know what high school tennis and career in media looks like? Beautiful. Look at that. I'm grabbing shit. Look at this shit. Look at that. It's unscrewed right off the top. Sorry. Oh, man. Anybody else you want to gander at?

1:10:22I think that's all we needed. I mean, Ronnie Lott, you got to, we mentioned Ronnie. Why don't we throw all the Ronnie's? We got to tell the story too.

1:10:29Jason Kelce:I mean, I don't know that I know the 100 % truthful story. I just knew the story that it was broken or whatever, and he had to cut it off in order to play in the Super Bowl was what I was told. God damn. Is that the actual story of Ronnie Lott? That's what I always thought it was. Cutting his finger off mid-game is the title of this video. Jesus. Why does it still have a nail? If you cut your finger in half, does it just to start Get a nail? We need to get Ronnie on here Is it just like so much of the It's like halfway through the pinky Is that what it is? And so there's still a little bit of nail left It's just like He like clipped it right through the Point of it Yeah There's Chuck Look at that Chuck Bednarik baby Oh yeah Look at them fingers Alright, tune in next week We're going to show you guys some fucked up feet Concrete Chuck except his hands they made his entire body of concrete in his hands of hanger wire