Afghanistan: Five years after the Taliban takeover

0:02Hello, I'm Celia Hatton. Welcome to NewsHour on the BBC World Service. We're starting this edition of the program with a look at the legacy left by the United States and its allies' abrupt and chaotic withdrawal from Afghanistan. Tomorrow marks five years since the Taliban seized power again in the Afghan capital, Kabul. Later in the program, we'll bring you our interview with retired U.S. Army General David Petraeus. He commanded U.S. forces for a period in Afghanistan. And as you'll hear, he says it was a mistake for the United States to have ever left the country. But that's the decision that was made.

0:39And so first, we wanted to bring you a rare window into life inside the country now. Since the Taliban's return to power, its leaders have severely restricted the lives of women and girls. Just a few of the hundreds of edicts that have been issued, girls can't attend school beyond the age of 11, women can't go to university, and many jobs are now barred to them. Our chief international correspondent, Lise Doucette, has been travelling to Afghanistan for many years, and she was there when the Taliban took over again five years ago. Well, Lise has now been back to meet three Afghans trying to keep learning and working.

1:20the sound of a school almost anywhere in the world. Here, young children, Afghan boys and girls in primary school laughing and learning with their teachers. But now we're going down a dark hallway into a far corner. And this is how young girls in Afghanistan, beyond grade 6, are being educated now. This is what's called a secret school. Hello? Salam alaikum. Salam alaikum. How are you? Are you okay? So you teach the girls what to do if the morality police come? Yeah, yeah. So this is one escape? Yeah, one escape door. The second one is here. This door. And where do the girls go? Downstairs? This is try to go to the back.

2:11To the back? Back of the back. So they escape out the back door. Did they ever catch you? No. No. Why do you take this risk?

2:41We're just going up the stairs now. some other classrooms of the oldest girls studying here. I'm turning years old and it's two years and I'm studying in a secret school and we are so happy to have a school like this. When you sit in the classroom, how does it make you feel? First is the feel that I'm going to learn something and after that, there's some fear that what will happen if they find us. What do you fear? What could happen? If they find us, maybe something happened for us and also for our school. But even with this fear, we're coming to study and learn something. Sometimes you get sad?

3:28Yeah. For example, sometimes I'm thinking that what will happen in the future. Sometimes I get sad and it's like sometimes this feeling is coming. Where do you find hope? from thinking about my future that maybe it will be good. You're a very brave girl. Yeah. Thank you also.

3:54We've driven about an hour from Kabul and come to this village where we're going to meet women who are learning how to make jam. It's one of the many enterprises that are being set up by Afghan women because it is one area where the Taliban seem to have no objections. Just going down the steps.

4:19What were you doing before the Taliban came to power, during the Republic? I was a university student during the Republic and I was studying political science. I completed six semesters of my studies there. I had only two semesters left. That was when, unfortunately, the universities were closed to girls. And now it's been five years, you're learning to make jam. How does that feel? If I cannot go to university, then I will find work. I knew that if I stayed at home, I would not make any progress or better myself. But I am 100 % sad. I loved my degree and I really wanted to finish it. When I apply for jobs and send my CV in or go to interviews, the first thing they ask is for my university certificate.

5:20But I never got one. Even this space is getting squeezed. As of last year, women can't take the products themselves to the shops to sell. A man has to do it. And if there's a trade fair, they can no longer be at the stalls. They have to send a man in their place. So year on year, it just keeps getting harder. We're on our way now to meet another young Afghan girl who's doing whatever she can to keep being educated. And it's less risky both for the students as well as the teacher. And that's studying online. There's a growing number of initiatives outside and in Afghanistan to educate women in this way.

6:08And I'm going to meet one of these students. I'm 13 years old and I finished my sixth grade lessons. And after that, I'm studying online my lessons. And you were sitting in a classroom with your fellow schoolgirls for six years. Now you're by yourself online. How does it feel? It doesn't feel very good. It feels very bad, I think. Because we studied six years, we were classmates, we were friends, and we all studied together. We're talking in a shop and you're getting trained for a new kind of skill. Yes, and right now I'm doing gold smiting, which I make some jewels to sell. What if your life was that you were a jewellery maker instead of a doctor?

6:57Would that be okay? No, I won't be happy because they are all not my main goal. Becoming a doctor, I think, is much better than becoming a jeweler. Do you sometimes feel the world has forgotten Afghanistan and Afghan girls? Yes, I think the same day forgot it, but I can totally tell them that we are unstoppable and we will never give up. Such impressive determination. And there are other girls like her, But there are many, many more who don't have access to the internet, online education, secret schools or even Islamic madrasas. For them, usually the only option is early marriage, sometimes as young as a teenager.

7:37And this is not just an issue of girls' education. Five years on, a new society is being created in Afghanistan. time. The Taliban's leader is now the ultra-conservative Hibatullah Akunzeda, who, as we were hearing earlier, has reversed almost all of the rights and freedoms gained by women and girls when the U.S. and its allies held a presence there. Lise Doucette's been speaking to the Supreme Leader's spokesman in the southern city of Kandahar. He's called Zabiullah Mujahid, and Lise began asking him what the Taliban had achieved in the last five years.

8:17It has been five years since Afghanistan has not been under foreign occupation or at war. It has been five years since a single government has been ruling Afghanistan, something that had not happened in the previous 45 years. Afghanistan has had a good opportunity over these five years to rebuild and to restart the foundations of our economy. You keep asking for your seat at the United Nations, and the UN makes it clear that's not going to happen until you make progress on human rights, including women's rights, inclusive governance, counterterrorism. Why in five years have you not moved an inch towards resolving those issues?

9:02We should emphasize that what the UN says about these issues is not correct. The rights of the Afghan people are being ensured. For about 20 years, Afghans were being killed and faced deprivation. Second, there is no terrorism in Afghanistan. Claims that terrorism exists in Afghanistan are incorrect. Afghanistan is a secure country and has strong security forces. In August 2021, just after the Taliban came to power, you publicly said, we are going to allow women to work and study. Women are going to be very active in the society, but within the framework of Islam. What happened? Yes, we had said that it would be under the guidance of Islam and Islamic laws.

9:49At present, women work in places where there is a need for them and where Islam permits it. Currently, women make up 24 % of the government workforce. You know that so many women lost their jobs. You know that the secondary schools and the universities are shut. When are they going to open? When are the schools going to open? Is it days, months? No, at present, education continues up to the sixth grade. And as for universities, the matter has not yet been finalized in a way that takes all the considerations into account. The institutions responsible for this are making their efforts. Is it better just to be honest and say they're never going to open?

10:34Naturally, we follow what Islam and Sharia law tell us. When the requirements that Sharia demands are provided, the problem may be resolved. What do you say to the Islamic scholars who have come to Afghanistan from around the world, Islamic leaders, and they say to you, Islam gives women the right to study, gives women the right to work. What do you say to them? I ask you not to focus too much on this matter, because it is related to a religious and a Sharia-based position. We cannot discuss and explain all the religious matters, issues of Ijtihad and the differences among scholars in a BBC program.

11:13As someone who promised the girls that they would go to school, when you hear reports of young girls committing suicide because they don't see they have any future, how does that make you feel? We will do everything within our ability to find a solution to this problem. But we see that girls also have alternative ways to address this problem to some extent. However, we are still obliged to follow the Sharia's rulings. Many countries, including countries from the West, say they're making so little progress in their discussions with the Taliban. What's not working? Is there another way to do it?

11:57Western countries should change their policies. Unfortunately, their policies are the same as they were during the war and when they had no relations with us. They imposed sanctions and prevented us from moving forward with what we wanted to do. They're following the same policy now. We want diplomatic contact so that things can become clear and the problems that arise can be resolved. The Taliban's chief spokesman, Zabi Hula Mujahid, talking there to our chief international correspondent, Lise Doucette. More analysis from Lise and our other BBC colleagues on Afghanistan on the BBC News website.

12:36And of course, our NewsHour interview with US General David Petraeus coming up in a few minutes' time. Stay with us on NewsHour on the BBC World Service.

12:59Coming up, the destruction of southern Lebanon by occupying Israeli forces. Financial Times reporter Raya Jalabi explains what she and her colleague have found during their investigation. Not just a pattern of destruction of potential or current Hezbollah military infrastructure. What we're seeing is a destruction of homes, of hospitals. We're talking dozens of hospitals, dozens of schools, cultural heritage sites, Roman ruins. And beyond that, the Israeli forces have been destroying energy and water infrastructure, everything that you would need to allow for people to return home. Other stories we're covering in our newsroom this hour.

13:34Jason Arday, the Cambridge professor who resigned over accusations of plagiarism last week, has been found dead at his home in London. And the owners of Liverpool FC have agreed to a deal to sell a 30 % stake in the club to a consortium that includes the Amazon founder, Jeff Bezos.

13:59This is NewsHour coming to you live from London. It's a case that is leading news broadcasts across the United States. A health insurance boss, Brian Thompson, shot dead outside a hotel in Manhattan in December 2024. A few hours ago, the man responsible, Luigi Mangione, confessed to the CEO's killing in a New York court. The entire story has divided opinions in the U.S., with reaction to the crime exposing the anger some Americans feel about the trillion-dollar health care industry. Some called Mangione a hero who took a stand against the system. This was how his lawyer, Karen Friedman Agnofilo, defended his actions to reporters outside the court.

14:39As Luigi explained in court today, he endured years of severe, debilitating pain following a broken back. while struggling to navigate, are health care and health insurance systems. Like the thousands of people who have reached out since this tragedy to share their own experiences, he believed that the system had failed him and destroyed his life. For others, though, he's a criminal who stalked and murdered an innocent man. This was the New York Police Commissioner, Jessica Tisch. To those who idolize Luigi Mangione, I say this. Violence is not a cause. Murder is not a message and a killer is certainly not a hero.

15:22I spoke to our correspondent in New York, Neda Taufik, and asked her what happened in court today. Well, I was seated a few rows behind Luigi Mangione and I had a direct view of him. And he was very calm as he was answering the judge's question ahead of pleading guilty. She first wanted to know if he knew that he would be waiving his right to a fair trial, for example. if he was competent. She found that he was competent enough to enter that plea. And his voice only wavered slightly, broke slightly, when he was asked if he understood that he could face a maximum of life in prison. And he replied, yes.

16:01But the most dramatic moment of the hearing was when the judge asked him to describe in his own words why he was guilty. And he said, I shot Mr. Thompson in Manhattan and he died. I knew what I was doing was illegal. And he went into describing how, just as his lawyer said there, that he had lived with back pain, endured that for years, and he had tried to unsuccessfully navigate the U.S. health care system. And he described how he hatched up this plan. He used a 3D printer to make a gun. He researched where the United Health Care Investor Meeting would be and even emailed them posing as an investor to get the exact location.

16:40And then he traveled to New York with the intent of killing Mr. Thompson. So it was quite something to hear him in his own words describe his motivations and what he did. And that all happened right in front of Brian Thompson's widow and other family members who were seated there in court as well. And why has this case struck such a nerve with Americans? Well, look, I've been talking to so many people about that. You know, undoubtedly, it's the public anger that existed with the U.S. health care system long before Luigi Mangione targeted one of its executives. And because the animosity toward the industry was so high, even in the immediate reaction of the death of Brian Thompson, people saw him less as a father of two, you know, and a husband and looked at his representation of an industry that doesn't care about people who are in need of dire medical assistance and are often denied coverage.

17:40Combine that with the fact that Luigi Mangione, look, he is young, he is good looking, and that has impacted a lot of the kind of public support he has had as well. And I was talking to legal experts about that because prosecutors understood that. This is a case that had graphic footage, compelling evidence, but they knew that there's always the chance of a hung jury if one person on that jury is supportive of Mangione. Nada Tawfiq speaking to us from New York City.

18:20Welcome back to NewsHour. A law in Ghana which would hand prison terms to members of the LGBT community and those seen as promoting homosexuality is awaiting final sign-off by the country's president. Earlier this year, the law was approved by Ghana's parliament with cross-party support, but the law's opponents say it puts lives at risk. Our religion editor, Aleem Makboul, reports. There are more than 60 countries in the world where homosexuality is a crime. Around half of them are in Africa, and Ghana is in the process of becoming another that sends gay people to prison. We are criminalising, and I want to use that word advisedly, people who carry themselves to be in that society.

19:14People who are gay. Gay. If you are attracted to another man and you express it openly and you indulge in the act of kissing a man, is unnatural before us. That's Emmanuel Bezra, Ghanaian member of parliament and one of the architects of a bill that doesn't just outlaw being gay, but also outlaws being an LGBT ally. We thought the spread of all this comes from people who are allies, who support it. And so if you are an ally or you are promoting it, it means you want it spread. It's a criminal... And if you're seen as an ally, if you're seen as somebody who expresses being gay, that could lead to prison terms?

19:59Of course. You should be in prison. More from Mr Bezra later. The bill he sponsored has been passed by Ghana's parliament and is now waiting to be signed into law by the president. But some gay Ghanaians have already fled the country, like Bediyak Boateng, who hears from those left behind. Sometimes I'm drawn to tears because I've had my fair experience of what they are going through. When you are going out, you have to check, is this person that I'm talking, is he safe? Can I trust this person with who I am? Do you feel now not only that you can't live in Ghana, how do you feel about even visiting Ghana?

20:38Visiting Ghana will be difficult. It's a sad situation for me, especially having a family there, but I can't face it because I really want to leave who I am without needing to pretend, without needing to lie to anybody. It's very sad. Our society frowns on some of these things. And so back to the MP, Emmanuel Bezra. A fairly obvious question, I think, is how can you criminalise something that people can't control in themselves? I just gave you one example that people sometimes have desire to steal. But this is very different. This is about living their own lives, expressing themselves. So there's a boundary in every society.

21:22One of the boundaries is that don't steal. But is it a crime that somebody is born in a way that they feel affection for somebody that is of their own gender? Born in a way. Who born them in that way? You were born in men. So you accept that if somebody is gay, they were born that way? No, we don't accept it. No at all. So don't even go there. That was the Ghanaian MP Emmanuel Bezra ending that report by the BBC's religion editor Ali Mikbul. Welcome back to NewsHour. And some news just breaking. The British academic Jason Arday, a former University of Cambridge professor at the centre of an argument over plagiarism, has been found dead.

22:04He was found unresponsive at an address in Battersea in South London Friday afternoon. Mr Arday resigned as a Cambridge professor of sociology of education last week after allegations of plagiarism and questions about some of his achievements. The university had announced it would carry out an investigation into Jason Arday's appointment and his time at Cambridge. He denied the claims and said his resignation was not an admission of guilt. Well, I'm joined now by the BBC's Charlotte Gallagher. Charlotte, remind us more about Jason Arday and recent coverage of him. Well, Jason Arday was Cambridge University's youngest ever black professor when he was appointed in 2023.

22:46And he had this pretty amazing story, Celia. He said that he couldn't speak until he was 11 years old. He couldn't read and write until he was 18. but through sheer force of will and also talent he'd managed to achieve these amazing academic achievements through graft he'd worked his way up and he'd got this professorship at Cambridge University. Now there was lots of coverage at the time when he got that role he was on the BBC he was in lots of newspapers. Now recently allegations arose of plagiarism surrounding his thesis and also questions about some of his achievements outside of academia, sporting achievements, for example.

23:27He said he ran a lot of marathons and he had a broken leg for some of those. So there were lots of things swirling around. Now, Cambridge University initially stood by him, other institutions stood by him. But last week, they said they were launching an investigation into these allegations about his academic work. And he then resigned. and he I think has been pretty much experiencing wall-to-wall coverage not just in traditional media but also right across social media. Yeah really the subject of a lot of headlines. What did Jason Arday say about those allegations? He said it's with profound sadness that I'm resigning from my role at the University of Cambridge.

24:07When he said he accepted the honour of becoming professor of sociology. It was without question the greatest professional privilege of my life. He said he resigned because of the relentless accusations, speculation and public commentary. And he said they had taken a profound toll on me and those I love. Crucially, he didn't say that he had committed any plagiarism. He didn't admit to lying. But he said he was leaving because of the speculation and the effect that it was having on him. Now, as I mentioned, Cambridge University said it was going to carry out an investigation. Has the university said anything?

24:44We've heard from the vice chancellor of the university, Professor Deborah Prentice. She said we are desperately saddened to hear this tragic news. Our heartfelt sympathies go out to Jason Arday's family and friends at this incredibly difficult time. In the last few minutes as well, we've heard from the education secretary, Lucy Powell. She said she was deeply shocked and saddened to hear about the death of Jason Arday and she urged people to remember there are real people with loved ones involved and I think that's probably reference to the amount of media coverage this story got and the amount of media focus that was on this one man.

25:22I mean this wasn't just a British story Celia, I was reading US newspapers and it was in those, it was also on some of the US networks, it was I think probably pretty unrelenting for the past couple of weeks. Yeah, I mean, this really has been continuing. Just take us through the timeline again. He was accused of plagiarism and then a couple of weeks went by before he resigned or how did it all go down? So there was a professor who had been at Cambridge University who had been sacked by Cambridge University. He said that he had found plagiarism in Jason Arday's work. And then the university initially backed him.

25:58Lots of people signed this letter backing him. Now, last week, it kind of gained more and more steam, more and more traction. Last week, the university said, look, we're going to do an investigation into this. Then Professor Jason Arday resigned. So I think the last week or so it had got very intense. Okay. And now again, we should say that Jason Arday has been found unresponsive at an address in Battersea just a few hours ago. He's now been pronounced dead.

26:35Our conversation with Charlotte Gallagher. Well, we started the programme with a report from inside Afghanistan five years on from the hasty withdrawal of the United States and its allies. Leading the U.S. presence for a year until July 2011 was the U.S. four-star general David Petraeus. He then went on to serve as director of the CIA. Not long before we came on air, I spoke with General Petraeus to ask for his thoughts on Afghanistan five years ago at the height of its withdrawal frenzy and now ruled by an ultra-conservative Islamist movement that has a tenuous relationship with the international community.