In short
The episode is a BBC NewsHour roundup focused mainly on Daniel Kinahan’s extradition to Ireland, plus other international stories.
Guest
Nicola Tallent, an Irish investigative journalist and Crime World podcast presenter, three-time Irish crime journalist of the year, who has followed the Kinahan case. Topic/claims: Dublin’s High Court says Kinahan is a senior organised-crime figure tied to international drug trafficking and firearms offences; he was arrested in Dubai after living there for 10 years under an Irish warrant. Key claims include an “umbrella” charge covering his alleged direction of the gang from the UAE, involvement in Dublin’s 2016 gangland feud (18 murders), and directing shipments of drugs/weapons into Ireland.
Notable examples
Kinahan’s father Christy Kinahan’s prior heroin trafficking and European money-laundering convictions; US sanctions and $5m rewards (2022) tied to alleged Hezbollah/Iran financing via drug profits; encrypted “Ennetcom” evidence used in a similar case against Sean McGovern (24-year sentence).
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VODaniel Kinahan's Arrest and Charges
0:45 to 1:20
Discussion on Daniel Kinahan's arrest in Dubai and the charges against him.
“Well, Nicola Talent is an Irish investigative journalist, three-time Irish crime journalist of the year, the presenter of the Crime World podcast, and she's followed this story.”
Kinahan's Criminal Background
1:20 to 2:20
Overview of Kinahan's alleged criminal activities and the gang's history.
“And Kinnaghan will be accused of conspiracy and directing some of those murders, as well as wide scale organised crime offences directing the shipment of drugs and weapons into Ireland.”
International Reach of the Kinahan Gang
2:20 to 3:40
Insights into how the Kinahan gang expanded operations internationally.
“Now, one of the strange features of this is that the Americans were after him as well.”
US Involvement and Sanctions
3:40 to 5:00
Discussion on US rewards and sanctions against the Kinahan family.
“Yeah, that's an extraordinary aspect of it, the Hezbollah angle.”
Implications of Extradition
5:00 to 6:20
Examining the extradition process and its implications for the Kinahan family.
“But as far as we know, neither his father nor brother, there isn't actually live investigations into their activities.”
Trial Expectations and Evidence
6:20 to 7:40
Expectations for the trial and the evidence being used against Kinahan.
“And he was charged with murder and other offences.”
Bureaucratic Challenges in Extradition
7:40 to 7:55
Discussion of the bureaucratic challenges faced in the extradition process.
“But nonetheless, when it came to us, obviously, we have dotted every I and crossed every T at this stage.”
FIFA and Allegations Against Infantino
7:55 to 14:00
Overview of FIFA president Gianni Infantino's allegations and their implications.
“The president of World Football's FIFA, Gianni Infantino, was looking composed in Colombia today where he attended the swearing-in of President Abdelardo de la Esprit.”
Debate on Attorney General Confirmation
14:00 to 18:08
Discussion on the political implications of the new Attorney General's confirmation.
“has been narrowly confirmed as Attorney General in charge of the Department of Justice.”
Colombian President's Anti-Crime Strategy
18:16 to 22:30
Overview of Colombia's new president's approach to combating organized crime.
“We will assume a leading role in the fight against global organised crime.”
Show all 16 chapters
Podcast Promotion Reminder
22:31 to 23:19
Listeners reminded to subscribe to the podcast for updates.
“You're listening to the World Service of the BBC.”
Sustainable Tourism Initiatives in Copenhagen
23:20 to 26:18
Exploration of Copenhagen's efforts to promote sustainable tourism practices.
“So how can tourism have a more positive impact?”
Challenges of Migrant Children in Ceuta
26:19 to 28:04
Insights on the situation of unaccompanied minors in Ceuta and their struggles.
“Then we sort of started a global movement.”
Children in Ceuta: A Devastating Situation
28:04 to 32:52
Learn about the plight of unaccompanied minors in Ceuta and the overwhelmed local response.
“No, and even younger, we can see children that are maybe 10, 12, 13, and others who are a bit older, between 15, 17.”
Legal Challenges for Unaccompanied Minors
32:52 to 36:35
Explore the legal rights of unaccompanied children in Spain and the complexities involved.
“Well, to get more on this, I've been speaking with Renée Boscalion.”
Moroccan Royal Instructions and Their Implications
36:35 to 39:16
Understand the Moroccan royal directives regarding the return of children and the practical challenges faced.
“And it's just what's in the best interest of the child.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:03Hello and welcome to NewsHour from the BBC World Service Live from London. This is Owen Bennett-Jones. It looks like luck has finally run out for Irish boxing promoter and alleged crime boss Daniel Kinahan in Dubai. The High Court in Dublin has said that he's a senior figure in an organised crime gang involved in international drug trafficking and firearms offences. He was arrested in Dubai, where he has lived for ten years under a warrant issued by the Irish courts back in April, and he's fought attempts to extradite him. An Irish government jet, though, left Dublin this morning for the UAE to pick him up and he's expected back in Dublin tomorrow.
0:46Well, Nicola Talent is an Irish investigative journalist, three-time Irish crime journalist of the year, the presenter of the Crime World podcast, and she's followed this story. So, first of all, what is Daniel Kinahan accused of? Well, Daniel Kinahan is returning to Ireland accused of a wide variety of organised crime offences. We're told that it's going to be an umbrella charge surrounding his directorship, basically, of organised crime from the United Arab Emirates and particularly over the last 10 years. As your listeners may know, there has been a very large gangland feud in Dublin, really, which kicked off here and resulted in the murder of 18 people.
1:29And Kinnaghan will be accused of conspiracy and directing some of those murders, as well as wide scale organised crime offences directing the shipment of drugs and weapons into Ireland. Right, into Ireland. But one of the points about this story is that this crime gang had international reach, right? It wasn't just Ireland. A hundred percent. I mean, this gang would have started off in a small kind of social housing development in Dublin, but they quickly became very big dealers, thanks largely to Daniel Kinahan's own father. Christy Kinahan, who has convictions here for heroin trafficking, has convictions in Europe for money laundering, etc., and would have kind of laid the groundwork for them to move to Spain around the turn of the century, at which time, obviously, cocaine was really becoming, it was kind of in its gold rush as such, and they made huge inroads and huge connections there in Spain, where they operated until the feud broke out in 2016, at which point Daniel Kinahan and key members of the organisation moved further away from law enforcement to the United Arab Emirates.
2:39Now, one of the strange features of this is that the Americans were after him as well. So the Americans issued a reward for him back in 2022. Yes, they did. There was a very large kind of press conference held in Dublin with the NCA, the National Crime Agency from the UK, with representatives from Europol. And the DEA and the US Treasury came and they leveled sanctions against Daniel Kinnaghan, his brother, Christopher Jr., his father, Christopher Sr., Kinnaghan and other members of their gang. They were the first really European drug gang to have been hit with those kind of sanctions. And at the same time, the US offered five million dollars each for the three Kinnahans with regards to information around their financial dealings, etc.
3:29That had kind of come to pass because of their links in or so the Americans believed networking with Hezbollah and other terrorist organisations. Yeah, that's an extraordinary aspect of it, the Hezbollah angle. Tell us about that. So the Americans would believe that Hezbollah and Iran as such would have been making money to fund terrorism through their investment in drug cartels, with drug cartels to ship drugs into Europe, cocaine in particular, that they would have invested, that the cocaine would have come in and then they would have made money and that money was put into funding their terrorist activities.
4:07And this really is what alerted the Americans to the likes of the Kinnaghan cartel in particular, that they were networking with these people. So why is it that he's going to Ireland and not the US? I mean, did the US try to extradite him as well? Well, the US issued those rewards and they levelled the sanctions on them, but it was never totally clear whether or not they wanted to bring them before the courts. Obviously, the Kinnaghan's were at that point, And in particular, Daniel Kinnaghan was involved in very high level boxing, a sport that he hoped to wash, we believe, money, plus also his reputation through.
4:46And he was kind of moving towards opening businesses within the US at that time. But it's never fully clear exactly what the US planned or do plan to do with the Kinnaghan's. Daniel Kinnaghan is wanted here on criminal charges. But as far as we know, neither his father nor brother, there isn't actually live investigations into their activities. And the speculation has always been that the Americans will someday come for them. I'm sure that's not very comfortable for the Kidahans. They probably would prefer really to be dealt with here in their own jurisdiction. You know, those sanctions were levelled.
5:25The wanted posters were put up and are still there. And the five million dollar bounties are there. But what they were looking for appeared to me to be to decimate the financial network and to try and kind of, I suppose, specify if monies were going to those terrorist organisations. And so basically the criminal trial then happens in Dublin and the Americans will be happy to see that happen. And it will be a massive trial in Ireland, right? Absolutely. And I mean, as you well know, the situation in America has changed so much since 22. It's difficult to know exactly what their skin is currently in the game.
6:01But nonetheless, the criminal trial in Dublin will be held before this special criminal court. Now, that's if he goes to trial. He could, of course, plead. That will be something that will be there for him. But his number two, as he's known, Sean McGovern, was returned to Ireland last year. And he was charged with murder and other offences. He pleaded guilty to directing a criminal organisation and he got 24 years. Now, he was an underling of Kinnaghan and the cases are very similar because a lot of the evidence is coming off the Ennetcom network, which was one of those encrypted phone communication tools that was decrypted essentially by the Dutch police.
6:46And messages, etc. from that were used in that trial of McGovern. were expecting the same evidence to be used in relation to Daniel Kinnaghan. Is there any feeling in Ireland that the authorities in the UAE should have acted sooner on this? You know, he'd been there for 10 years, that it was down to the UAE to deal with this? There's been a lot of bureaucratic tape to go through. The Irish government were hopeful that the United Arab Emirates would have handed Daniel Kinnaghan back earlier. However, they've had to create and sign a extradition agreement. Now, not a treaty, but an agreement with the country.
7:24Our Justice Minister has been out. Our Guarda Commissioner has been out. There has been a lot of kind of, I suppose, olive branches being reached from here to the Emirates. My information is it's a very peculiar place to try and do business. But nonetheless, when it came to us, obviously, we have dotted every I and crossed every T at this stage. and the government jet is gone out to collect him and he's been handed over. He's been in prison there and was arrested some months ago. And that was Nicola Tallent. The president of World Football's FIFA, Gianni Infantino, was looking composed in Colombia today where he attended the swearing-in of President Abdelardo de la Esprit.
8:08But he might have been a bit ruffled underneath his calm exterior because FIFA has had to deny an allegation that UEFA paid off a woman described as Infantino's lover when he was working there. Well, Miguel Maduro used to be in charge of the governance committee at FIFA. Didn't last long, didn't last a year, because he later testified to a UK parliamentary committee. He faced immense pressure from Infantino when his committee ruled that a Russian deputy prime minister was ineligible to be a FIFA council member due to political neutrality rules. Anyway, how damaging is this latest allegation against Gianni Infantino?
8:50It's certainly damaging, but I don't think it will have any impact on whether he will actually survive or not as president of FIFA. FIFA doesn't answer in terms of public accountability or before the court of public opinion. The leaders of FIFA stay or not in power depending on those inside FIFA. And at the moment, it continues to look as if Mr. Infantino has the votes to stay. That is, that he has the majority of football associations supporting him. It doesn't seem likely that UEFA and those that oppose him are able to gather enough football associations to bring him down. And the other alternative that is precisely this alternative of having so much public outrage that even those that currently support Infantino will decide that it would be better to sacrifice him to avoid, for example, the risk of any public regulation, doesn't seem very likely at the moment.
9:47And as time will go on, they will probably estimate that the pressure will diminish and things will go on and Mr Infantino will be able to stay in power. Why does he have such strong support amongst some football associations, you know, in Latin America or in Africa? It's all about money. The president of FIFA controls a huge pot of money that results from the commercial successes of FIFA competitions, notably the World Cup. And this money is basically free for the president to decide to whom he disburses this money. And he has been very smart from that point of view in using this money to feed and set up a network of patronage.
10:34And that basically helps him consolidate his power. And what we're seeing now is that it appears that his strategy, as similar to those of the persons that preceded him, has been successful. What you're describing in general terms sounds sort of corrupt. And I just wonder whether the Swiss authorities, you know, FIFA's based in Switzerland, are they not interested in investigating and pursuing it? Much of this is a form of institutionalized corruption that we can say is a form of legalized corruption. Because FIFA is a private association. They decide how they distribute the monies. basically buying votes by transferring money to football associations around the world is not by itself unlawful.
11:22And that is part of the problem. It will require investigating how this money is then used both at FIFA and at the level of the football associations. So there are certainly elements that raise questions. Even this latest payoff may be problematic for UEFA itself, because how did that payoff take place? I mean, was it on the books? All those things need to be investigated. But it is not easy because many of them will require international cooperation in terms of investigation. And Swiss authorities have adopted a law many years ago that confers wide autonomy to these sports organizing bodies in order precisely to have them in Switzerland.
12:05And what is likely to happen is that if they will start investigating more, if they will start putting more pressure and even regulating these sports governing bodies, they will move somewhere else. And when people talk about buying votes, others will just say within FIFA it's distributing funds. Yes, legally they can claim that this is absolutely possible, that they are simply distributing funds for the football associations. But we know that the consequence of it is really to keep in place this system of patronage through which presidents consolidate and accumulate power. But that is a political question, not necessarily a legal one or a corruption one, or as I describe it, is a form of legalized corruption.
12:49And that was the former FIFA official Miguel Maduro there.
13:00and coming up last week tens of thousands of migrants entered the spanish exclave of seuto which is located on the north african coast many of them are unaccompanied children who are now stuck in the spanish territory most of them don't want to go back home they are aware of the fact that they might struggle studying, finding a job, and most of them just want to have hope for a better life. And that's the main reason why they want to come here to Spain or to other European countries. More on that later. Some headlines. President Zelensky has stressed Ukraine's urgent need for more air defence interceptors after another night of deadly Russian missile attacks.
13:43And Amman says talks with Iran on managing the Strait of Hormuz have been positive, while warning against further attacks on ships.
13:59US President Donald Trump's former lawyer, Todd Blanche, has been narrowly confirmed as Attorney General in charge of the Department of Justice. He has served as Acting Attorney General since April. Now, some Republican senators had raised concerns about his role, particularly in establishing Trump's 1.8 billion anti-weaponization fund because of fears it could be used to reward those who took part in the attack on Congress in 2021. One of the concerned senators was Bill Cassidy who ended up voting in the way Trump wanted and he explained why. This is not a referendum on President Trump. It is a decision regarding Mr Blanche in very specific circumstances.
14:42All considered, I will vote for Mr Blanche. I'll be criticised for this vote, what's new. But people can be assured that I worked hard to understand the issue and to make the right decision. Well, the BBC's Bernd DeBussman is in. Washington joins us now live. Can you just talk us through this? I mean, has the president now got basically an attorney general who will do his bidding or not? Well, that's the concern among Democrats and some Republicans including the two that broke ranks to vote for for against Mr. Blanche's confirmation. There is a concern among some in Washington that Mr. Blanche would, given his very close personal connections with President Trump, he used to be his personal attorney, that he would be used kind of as the mechanism with which President Trump can use the Justice Department to target his perceived political opponents.
15:42So I think that's certainly a concern. The White House and Mr. Blanche himself would, of course, push back on that and say that his role as the chief law enforcement officer of the United States is quite independent from the White House. So I think it's one of those things in Washington that it really depends who you ask. But so far in this second term, is it fair to say the president has had control of the Department of Justice? He has to a certain regard. Pam Bondi, Mr. Blanche's predecessor in the job, was very much seen as an ideological ally of President Trump's and someone that was ready to do his bidding, often against his political opponents, for example.
16:24And it was often seen as kind of transgressing on the independence of law enforcement and too much closeness to the White House. Tell us about the Anti-Weaponization Fund. What actually is it? Well, it was a proposed$1.8 billion fund, which the Trump administration said was to be used to compensate what they described as victims of legal persecution under previous administrations. In theory, it would have been open to anyone against any administration who felt they had been unfairly persecuted by the Justice Department in the past. But most of President Trump's opponents, political opponents, and even some within the broader Republican orbit who support him, they said that they described it essentially as a slush fund that he could have used to compensate, for example, people that participated in the January 6th riot at the U.S.
17:22Capitol. So it became very, very politically contentious. And even many Republicans had very deep concerns about where that was leading. But I guess the key question, is he going to get that fund? Well, that's the other concern now that Mr. Blanche has been confirmed as attorney general. There's a concern that now that that project has been abandoned, he could try revive it under a different name and find a way around it. That's something that President Trump's detractors often accuse him of, just trying to find different ways to the same objective. But as of now, it seems dead and there's very intense opposition from lawmakers from both parties to being revived.
18:04OK, well, thanks for bringing us up to date with what's going on in Washington. That was the BBC's Bernd DeBussman.
18:15Colombia has a new president, Abelardo de la Esprilla He used to be a US-based defence lawyer representing drug trafficking paramilitaries He did that from Florida He's now said he will crush armed insurgents In his inauguration speech he said he would work with international partners to combat organised crime
18:45I take office with the intention of bringing all my fellow citizens together. We will assume a leading role in the fight against global organised crime. My government will promote close international coordination in the fields of intelligence, security, justice and the prosecution of criminal finances. The United States seems enthusiastic. It has pledged a billion dollars in security assistance to Colombia. Well, Adam Isaacson is director for defense oversight at the Washington office on Latin America. It's an NGO which works on human rights, democracy and social justice in Latin America. What will the billion dollars be for?
19:25There is not much clarity on what the billion dollars is for. The State Department published a fact sheet on Friday evening that is, oh, it's less than a thousand words long. We do know that it's mostly going to be military assistance. We know that there's going to be a focus on U.S. forces carrying out joint operations with Colombian forces, which is something new. We know they want to expand forced eradication of the coca bush, which is used to make cocaine. And there's words about stopping immigration flows and building up state presence in territory. But ultimately, a billion dollars would not be enough to even achieve all just those four goals.
20:03Sure. It's worth making the point that Plan Colombia, I mean, this is not the first time this sort of thing's happened. And back in, what, 25 years ago, there was Plan Colombia. And that was worth, in real terms, it was worth more. Yeah, the original plan, Colombia, was a package in the year 2000 that gave Colombia$860 million. But that's in 2000 dollars. In 2020 dollars, a billion dollars today is about 500 million in 2020. So it is a smaller package. And actually, Colombia has received well over$14 billion in assistance during the 21st century so far. So this is just maybe a slight uptick from what we've been seeing even during the Biden administration.
20:43Joint operations you mentioned, does that mean American soldiers shooting at Colombians in Colombia? If the Trump administration could have its way, it would absolutely mean US soldiers alongside Colombian soldiers firing their weapons and perhaps firing their weapons at Colombians who they believe to be members of organized crime, what the Trump administration is calling terrorist groups. Yes. Whether Colombia's constitution would allow that, whether Colombia's Congress would allow that is still far from clear. It's possible that President de la Esprea could speed run it in the first days of administration.
21:22So we're waiting to see what might happen. On the president, the new president, I mean, he did have this history of defending drug dealers as a defense lawyer in Miami. How convincing is he as a man saying, I will dismantle the drugs people? Well, I mean, I think he's convincing and wanting to go after some of the drugs people, those who maybe are less aligned with corrupt parts of Colombia's establishment. I would draw a parallel again with the Trump administration. The Trump administration has been putting a lot of resources into going after what they call narco terrorists, usually poor people who are members of armed groups that fund themselves with drug trafficking.
22:03He has, on the other hand, pardoned a former president of Honduras who helped send as much as 400 tons of cocaine to the United States. He's gone easy on leaders in Venezuela and Paraguay who have been more aligned with his political program. So there's a bit of a double standard that De La Sprea might also follow. And that's the view of Adam Isaacson. He is the director for defense oversight at the Washington Office on Latin America, a human rights organization there. You're listening to the World Service of the BBC. Don't forget, if you ever miss an edition of the programme, then you can always get the podcast.
22:38It's twice a day, updated with material from our programmes every day of the year. So really, if you want to know what's going on around the world, it's a very good place to start. You're listening to the World Service of the BBC.
22:59And welcome back to NewsHour. Over the last few decades, cheap flights have fuelled a boom in mass tourism. In fact, the World Bank, this is an incredible number, estimates that around one in ten jobs around the world are now supported by travel and tourism. But it has also led to increased pollution and waste. Some areas are becoming overwhelmed with visitors, upsetting local residents. So how can tourism have a more positive impact? Well, the BBC's Adrian Murray got on a bike to find out about one idea in the Danish capital, Copenhagen. More tourists are choosing this green way of getting around.
23:38But as a local resident, I can tell you many of them struggle with the busy cycle lanes. And it can cause us commuters a lot of frustration. To help, the city is holding cycling safety workshops and offering a free bike rental session for visitors who take part. Don't forget to look over your door. Oh, OK, got it. Otherwise you're blindly going into a corner, right? There might be somebody coming. Yeah, OK, thank you. The sessions are part of a city-wide scheme called Cope & Pay, which essentially rewards tourists for good behaviour. Visitors can earn perks, like a free drink or a museum tour, by doing some volunteering or travelling around by bike or public transport.
24:23Rika Holm-Peterson from the local tourist board says the scheme has encouraged tourists to move around sustainably. We've been running Copenhagen for two years now and we've seen bike rental increase of 59%, which is huge. And for sure we need to make sure that people are safe. So it really become a great experience both for the visitors and the locals. I got chatting to a few of my fellow cyclists to see what they thought, starting with Bo, who was visiting from New Jersey. I stumbled across it online. It didn't occur to me that we could do this in Copenhagen, but now that I'm doing it, I'm definitely going to rent a bike and see the city that way.
25:01You cover a lot more ground, and it's great. I'm Shefali Sajteva. I belong to India. Do you think it's a good approach, that Copenhagen, the colourful boarding, tourists, the doing positive things? Absolutely. It is a great thing. I mean, you know, rather than restricting places for tourists, which, you know, some of the cities do. The Copenhagen scheme started in 2024 with 24 local partners. It's now expanded to more than 100 partners. And they range from cafes and restaurants to museums and even a ski slope. Another partner that's been involved since the beginning is GoBoat, a Danish company that rents out battery-powered boats on Copenhagen's canals.
25:44It's a bit wobbly there. I met up with GoBoat co-founder Kasper Eich Romer to try out their activity. The good deed in Copenhagen is to come out, help us clean up the waters, and the reward is to get a boat ride in return. Rika from Copenhagen's tourist board says that since Copenhagen was launched two years ago, 100 other tourist destinations have been in touch to find out how it works. Last month, Germany's capital ran a pilot called BerlinPay. We cannot save the world here in Copenhagen, but imagine if we next year see 40 cities having implemented this. Then we sort of started a global movement.
26:22True enough. And that was Erika Holm-Pettersen there ending that report from Adrian Murray. You may remember that just over a week ago, some 70 ,000 people burst into the Spanish exclave of Ceuta, which is located on the North African coast. Many of them actually left of their own accord shortly after arriving. Reports suggested they found themselves short of food and water and just decided to go back home. But some stayed, and a fair number of them are unaccompanied children. Well, Maria Jimenez is based in Ceuta, where she volunteers for the Association Elin. It works with migrants there. How many Moroccan children are there now?
Read the full transcript
27:04We don't have official figures from the governments, but through the counts carried out by the residents in the outlying neighbourhoods, we know that there are more than 4 ,500 unaccompanied minors on the streets, mainly Moroccan, but also from other origins. Right. It seems a very, very high number, and quite surprising that they don't want to get back home to their families. Do they want to get back home? Most of them don't want to go back home. The situation, especially in the north of Morocco, is very complicated. They are aware of the fact that they might struggle studying, finding a job, and most of them just want to have a hope for a better life.
27:52And that's the main reason why they want to come here to Spain or to other European countries. And when we say children, does that mean many of them are like 17, 16, 17? They're sort of older children. No, and even younger, we can see children that are maybe 10, 12, 13, and others who are a bit older, between 15, 17. Ten-year-olds are coming in and saying, Yes. I don't want to be with my family, I want to be in Spain. Yes. That seems incredible. So what sort of situation are they in now, those children? So the situation really is devastating. So some very precarious and insufficient facilities have been activated in the last couple of days.
28:44So a few open-air school playgrounds are being used to house mainly women and girls, but not the rest of the children who remain across the city. So we estimate that maybe around 300, 400 girls and women are now in those schools. But no other facilities have been activated so that they are able to stay somewhere that is more or less safe. So most of them are in the streets, sleeping in the streets, waiting for the government to find a solution, to find at least to open some facilities so they can sleep somewhere else. Now, you were born in Ceuta, right? You're Spanish born in Ceuta. So when you talk to your friends and neighbours, what do they think about this?
29:36I mean, are they feeding these children or are they leaving them in the street? What attitude do they take? Well, there are all sorts of responses. So some residents have shown solidarity, distributing food, water, blankets, clothing, especially in some outlying neighborhoods. But these residents are completely overwhelmed because many people have been gathering in those areas and they just don't have the human and the material resources to respond to this situation. And there are also residents in the city who have shown fear, confusion and anger as well, especially in the early days, which is completely understandable because just to give you an idea, Ceuta is about 20 square kilometers and has around 80 ,000 inhabitants.
30:31and in the first few dates, the official figures we have is that around 70 ,000 people entered the city. And if you see the city in a map, it's not in the Spanish mainland. It resembles an island. Geographically, it's like an island, so it's really a situation that's suffocating. Let me just put to you how some people around the world may see this situation. They may say that Suweta is basically a colonial outpost that has been there since the 1500s. There's no reason for Spain to have territory in Africa. And that the consequence is that if the borders were opened, millions of people would come and try and get access to Spain.
31:15And it's just a historical anomaly which leads to this situation. I mean, you're born and bred there. What would you say to people who think like that? First of all, I think there is some confusion here. Ceuta, this city, is not a former colonial territory. It has always belonged to Spain, and before belonging to Spain, it belonged to Portugal. So it's not a territory where Europeans arrived, conquered the space, like it happens in many other territories in Africa. and those territories have been decolonized. That's not what's in the case of Ceuta. It has always been a Spanish city. And, well, of course, I mean, we completely understand the fear, the confusion and the anger facing this situation, especially, specifically from our organization, what we call for is for safe routes to migrate, especially issuing visas for people who are willing to come here.
32:21So visas for people who are fleeing from conflict, visas for people who might be willing to study and work in Spain or in any other European countries. And this is not the ideal situation for anyone, for people who migrate and for people in Ceuta or generally in Spain. And that was Maria Jimenez who lives in Ceuta and is working with the thousands of children, unaccompanied children, who are now sort of trapped there. Well, to get more on this, I've been speaking with Renée Boscalion. She is a Dutch journalist, covers Morocco and Spain as a freelance for various European newspapers. And she's actually based in the Canary Islands, which have had similar issues as well.
33:08Well, the Moroccan king has spoken about this situation. He said these children should be returned. But as René Boscalian explained to me, it isn't quite as simple as that. Spain is not really in a position just to send them back. Under the European Convention, as well as under Spanish national law, children have the right to a procedure so they cannot be collectively exposed. And most of the time, the majority of these children are allowed to stay because most of the time it's in the interest of the child to stay in the country where they migrated to. Right. So adults can be sent back and children can't?
33:48Yeah. Officially, adults must also have a procedure, though we see in reality this does not always happen, like we saw in Sota. Children must have the right to have a procedure at least. And are you clear on why these children ended up there unaccompanied? I mean, it seems incredible. So did they go alone or did they go with their families and then their families left them there? How did it work? No, these children, they went alone. So we see like 14-year-olds, 15-year-olds children, they went alone there. And it says a lot about the economical situation in Morocco being very dire, that even children as young as 14 want to leave their country without their family.
34:32And do the families encourage them, do you know? I've spoken to many unaccompanied miners arriving on the Canary Islands where I live And it depends. Most of the time, they don't discuss these issues with their families. They just leave without telling them. Right. And is there any contact between the children and their families? Are they getting money from their families? How does that work? Yeah, they speak with their families. I've heard some families, they try to arrange for money to be sent to these children. I spoke, for example, to a brother of a boy, but he's 20 years old, so he's not a minor.
35:09but it's very difficult for families now to help these children or these young people from Morocco because for example they don't have a passport so they cannot collect money from the bank practical issues like these yeah it's interesting you said that the decision is basically what's in the best interest of the child because you know you could see two two versions of that the best interest is to get to Spain and make a life there but the best interest that yeah we're hearing as young as 10 would be to be with their family wouldn't it so so it's I mean that must be a difficult decision that must be a very difficult decision and i must admit that i don't know in reality if if a child is better off in morocco or is better off in spain what i can say though is that like unaccompanied minors have had a very hard time in in spain um especially for example so the situation right now is septa we we could draw a comparison what happened in the canary islands so it was at a much lower level but in the canary islands they also had 6 000 miners in in the in the region and the system was completely collapsed so the the children that they were staying in in centers there was a lot of news that there or reports that they were actually abused in the centers there was a lot of mistreatment physical abuse mental abuse in the next weeks, we can see a similar situation evolving about unaccompanied miners in Soita that we saw in the Canary Islands.
36:38So does that mean in Morocco, you know, most opinion, if you can gauge what most people would think, would they be thinking, oh, good luck to these boys and girls, let's hope they make it to Spain, or would they be thinking, we must get these boys and girls back? the question is more surrounded at how difficult the situation is in Morocco right now so I think that a lot of people they empathize with uh with these boys and they understand their decision to leave because the economical situation is very difficult in Morocco for many of them their situation at home is is absolutely uh difficult very difficult and just to clarify this I think this is what you're saying but just to clarify if an if an adult was in Ceuta they'd have to prove they were suffering political persecution or some kind of persecution and therefore get refugee status.
37:27But for children, it's different. And it's just what's in the best interest of the child. Exactly. Yeah. So there must be determined if it's the best interest of the child for the child to save. So now it's interesting to see that the Moroccan, the royal instructions, so that's coming from the kingdom, has said that they want to cooperate with Spain to return the children. But that must be extremely hard because that requires, legally it requires cooperation of the families in Morocco, which is most of the times is very difficult to get in touch with those families, to have this clear that they will take them back, that their situation will be well.
38:04And of course, also just the huge number to register all of them and to carry out all these proceedings. And also important to note that while all these procedures are carried out, which could take months or even longer, the child already has the right to education, to health care, to a stable living condition inside the centre. But of course, in practice, this is going to be super complicated because the guardianship is under the autonomous region, or in this case, the autonomous city of Sota. So Sota right now is responsible for these children, but the law indicates that once they surpass a certain quota, which in Sota is only 27 children they can receive, they must be redistributed to mainland Spain in two weeks.
38:50But that's the law. But in reality, this is very difficult because the autonomous regions, the populist folks party in the autonomous regions, they are obstructing this. So in practice, this redistribution has a lot of challenges. Renée Boscalion there, a Dutch journalist who covers Morocco and Spain from the Canary Islands. And she brings us to an end of this edition of NewsHouse. So thanks very much for listening. And from Owen Bennett-Jones here in London, goodbye.
From the publisher
An Irish government jet has travelled to the United Arab Emirates as part of an operation to extradite suspected crime boss Daniel Kinahan. Kinahan has fought attempts to extradite him from the UAE.
Also in the programme: more controversy around Gianni Infantino; and Todd Blanche is confirmed as US attorney general.
(Photo: Daniel Kinahan pictured in 2016. CREDIT: Collins Photo Agency)
