Ed Sheeran's support acts quit tour in support of Macklemore's 'Free Palestine' comments

16 Sep 2026 · 47 min · 17 chapters

Ask about this episode

Ask anything about it. ChatGPT or Claude reads this page and answers with the times it was said.

Connect VO and ask about every podcast you hear, including the moments you saved. Add to ChatGPT · Add to Claude

In short

The episode centers on fallout from Macklemore saying “Free Palestine” during Ed Sheeran’s North America stadium tour, and how that sparked petitions, cancellations, and a wider debate about whether pop stars should be political. Macklemore (Grammy-winning rapper) had posted the MetLife Stadium clip; the Israeli-American Council’s Ilan Carr called the message “outrageous,” claiming it slanders Israel/Jewish people and demanded Macklemore be removed. Macklemore was dropped; Sheeran said the decision was made by his promoter. All other support acts also quit, leaving Sheeran with 18 dates and backing band Boega removed. Fans discuss dehumanizing celebrities, while Phineas (Billie Eilish’s brother) argues artists shouldn’t be silenced.

Guests

Mark Savage (BBC music correspondent) covers tour impact; Dorian Linsky (British cultural historian/journalist) and Billy Bragg (singer-songwriter) debate motives, free speech, and audience mood. Notable examples include Robert Kraft defending the stadium decision and comparisons to Glastonbury protests.

Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.

Chapters

Tap a time to open that second in VO

Macklemore's Political Statement

0:32 to 1:07

Discussion on Macklemore's comments about Palestine during a concert.

“And he's currently performing in North America.”

Reactions to Macklemore's Comments

1:07 to 2:36

Exploring the backlash against Macklemore from the Israeli-American Council.

“It all began when the rapper Macklemore appeared on stage ahead of Sheeran at the MetLife Stadium in New Jersey 12 days ago.”

Fallout From Macklemore's Removal

2:36 to 4:04

Analysis of the impact on Ed Sheeran's tour after Macklemore's removal.

“But Free Palestine absolutely is a call for the extermination of the state of Israel and the Jewish people.”

Support Acts Take a Stand

4:04 to 6:04

Discussion on other support acts dropping out in solidarity.

“I've been asking him more about the fallout.”

Cultural Commentary on Artists' Speech

6:04 to 8:06

Cultural commentators discuss the implications of artists speaking out politically.

“these are smaller artists who've now lost a huge platform, but they say they've done it for good reason.”

Ed Sheeran's Position and Fallout

8:06 to 10:06

Exploration of Ed Sheeran's attempts to remain apolitical amidst growing pressures.

“I think that he is trying to maintain a relatively apolitical and neutral position.”

Audience Reactions and Expectations

10:06 to 12:14

Discussion on how fans might react to Ed Sheeran's future shows post-controversy.

“cause, which, you know, I don't know whether that's entirely fair, but it's a pretty much a disaster for him.”

Gaza Building Collapse Update

14:00 to 14:27

Learn about the devastating impact of structural damage in Gaza due to ongoing conflicts.

“It has its country's rift with the United States deepens.”

UNDP Insights on Gaza's Situation

14:27 to 19:17

Hear insights from a UNDP representative on the dangerous conditions in Gaza.

“Let's take you to that story in Gaza and a multi-storey buildings collapsed in Gaza City, which had people inside at the time.”

Natural History Museum's New Exhibition

19:17 to 23:01

Discover the upcoming exhibition at the Natural History Museum exploring humanity's relationship with nature.

“Now, to so many the world over, it's London's beloved dinosaur museum, although its collection spans much more.”
Show all 17 chapters

Funding Challenges for Ebola Vaccines

23:01 to 26:36

Understand the financial and logistical challenges behind developing vaccines for the Ebola virus.

“Go back even to when this building started, opened in 1881, the scientific mission was how do we classify and understand the natural world.”

Kosovo War Crimes Sentencing

26:36 to 28:00

Delve into the latest developments regarding the sentencing of Kosovo's former president for war crimes.

“You're listening to NewsHour from the BBC World Service.”

Kosovo War Crimes Trials and Public Reaction

28:00 to 30:39

Explore the complexities and public responses surrounding war crimes trials in Kosovo.

“Well, this was between 1998 and 1999, the period of the Kosovo War, until the time of NATO's intervention in the spring of 1999.”

Impact of Mahsa Amini's Death on Women's Rights

30:40 to 33:32

Learn about the evolution of women's rights in Iran post-Mahsa Amini's death and the ongoing struggles.

“It's been four years since Masa Amini died, just days after she was arrested by Iran's morality police for allegedly wearing her hijab improperly.”

Global Cooperation and AI Regulation

33:33 to 37:56

Understand the challenges and importance of international cooperation in AI regulation.

“One young man I spoke to who lives near Tehran said the issues had become polarising.”

Canada's Potential EU Associate Membership

37:57 to 42:00

Discover the implications of Canada's pursuit of associate membership in the EU and its strategic significance.

“is simply going to fall behind because technology moves at a rapid pace.”

Exploring EU Associate Membership for Canada

42:00 to 47:24

Learn about the implications and strategic context of Canada's potential associate membership in the EU.

“So what could the EU get from this and what could Canada gain as well?”
Hear the part that matters, and keep it.Open this episode in VO. Double tap your headphones to save a moment as you listen.
Get VO free

Transcript

Automatic transcript. May contain errors.

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.

0:31to find out more.

1:00And he's currently performing in North America. But it's politics in the Middle East which have derailed his current tour, raising a bigger question about whether the pop star should be political. It all began when the rapper Macklemore appeared on stage ahead of Sheeran at the MetLife Stadium in New Jersey 12 days ago. He shared a clip of that performance afterwards on his social media. One of the reasons why I wanted to come on this tour was because I wanted to stand up here on stages and stadiums across America and say two words that are very near and dear to my heart. Free Palestine. Well, it was those comments which led to a petition from the Israeli-American Council demanding that McLemore was taken off the tour.

1:48Ilan Carr is chief executive of that council. What he did was outrageous. He took to the stage in front of this captive audience of tens of thousands and proceeded to slander the state of Israel and the Jewish people. And it has no place in a concert. You know, a concert is supposed to be inclusive. And this is, by the way, something that Mr. Sheeran said. He wants inclusive concerts for all his concertgoers. And to make Jewish concertgoers and pro-Israel concertgoers feel unwelcome is a terrible thing to do. And that's what Malcolm Moore did. And so it is entirely appropriate that he was excused from further performance.

2:29He has no right to hijack a stage at a concert. Free Palestine. And I don't, by the way, purport to know Macklemore's intentions. But Free Palestine absolutely is a call for the extermination of the state of Israel and the Jewish people. It's very clear. Well, McLemore was later dropped from the tour and Ed Sheeran said that that decision was made by his promoter, not him. All the other acts on the lineup have now also dropped out. Well, we've been hearing from a few fans. I'm Danielle and I'm from North Carolina. People see celebrities as like some kind of performing monkey they can control. And I think people are dehumanizing him and it kind of breaks my heart.

3:15I'm trying not to get emotional about it. Instead of making celebrities like the people we're mad at or outraged with, I think we should be putting our focus on the things that, like the people in power that actually are doing the things that are frustrating. Hi, it's Lizzie. I'm an Ed Sheeran fan. I'm disappointed in the response that he's had to Macklemore speaking out and bravely saying this needs to be spoken about. You need people that have got massive audiences to talk about their views and opinions especially when it's a humanitarian crisis. You're a pop star, you earn a lot of money, you should be speaking up.

3:53One of the acts, Phineas, the brother of pop star Billie Eilish, said in a statement artists must not be silenced when they speak up for the oppressed. So where does this leave the tour? And Ed Sheeran, well Mark Savage, is our music correspondent. I've been asking him more about the fallout. Well, as you might have heard last night, everybody else who was a part of that tour has dropped out. all three of the support acts and even Ed Sheeran's backing band, a group of folk musicians from Ireland called Boega. So he's left with 18 massive stadium dates across the north and south of America, playing to more than a million people, and he's the only person on the line-up.

4:31To be fair, Ed Sheeran can do that no problem. He tends to play solo, he loops his music using a loop pedal and builds up the songs, and he can have the crowd eating out of his hand just by himself. But certainly this is not a situation that he wanted to be in. In his statement yesterday, he says that he does have private views on the Israel-Gaza conflict. He chooses not to say them in public, but really by booking McLemore in the first place and by this row breaking out in the way it has, he's been dragged into that discussion whether he likes it or not. And the person who operates those stadiums in America, Robert Kraft, has defended that decision though, despite, of course, a real backlash.

5:13Well, yes, he only operates one of the stadiums, the Gillette Stadium in Massachusetts, where the New England Patriots play American football. He certainly has been named as one of the people who put pressure on Ed Sheeran and his promoters. And Ed Sheeran has a personal relationship with Robert Kraft. He sang at his wedding four years ago. So that is, it certainly suggests a kind of a murkiness to it, that there are people behind the scenes pulling strings that are stopping McLemore from having free speech, which in America would be his First Amendment rights. And that is one of the reasons that a lot of the support acts cited for pulling out of the tour.

5:53They said, you know, millionaires and billionaires cannot police what we say in public. And just briefly, tell us more about the support acts, because unlike McLemore, who's well-known, Grammy Award winning, these are smaller artists who've now lost a huge platform, but they say they've done it for good reason. Yes, so we had Aaron Rowe, who's an upcoming singer-songwriter from Ireland. He is one of the artists that pulled out. We had McLemore obviously being dropped and Lucas Graham, a Danish band who had a couple of hits about 10 years ago, but aren't as big as they used to be. So yeah, this is a huge opportunity.

6:26And obviously you earn a percentage of the ticket sales going on a tour like this. They have all put their principles ahead of that money, whether you agree with them or not. But it'll be interesting to see if anybody else steps up to fill those vacant slots, because there are a lot of very hungry bands that I imagine would like to pay to 80 ,000 fans every night with Ed Sheeran. But if you sign up to that tour now, I suspect you will be subject to torrents and torrents of abuse online. So you'd need a very thick skin. Mark Savage there. Well, let's discuss that in a bit more detail. I've been speaking to Dorian Linsky, a British cultural historian and journalist, and Billy Bragg, the singer-songwriter.

7:05Well, I think it's been a terrible own goal for the owner of the stadium. I initially decided that McLemore wouldn't come and play in his stadium because instead of McLemore saying free Palestine to maybe 20 ,000 people in the stadium, he's now said it to the entire world and he's created this huge debate. So in that sense, I think it's been terribly self-defeating. But on another level, it's great to see young artists standing up in solidarity with Macklemore, because I think ultimately, you know, culture has to reflect the way that the world is. And that's what Macklemore was trying to do, what we all try to do.

7:43And I don't think he should be punished for that. Dorian, in Ed Sheeran's statement, he says he's appalled by the conflict between Israel and Palestine. And he says the suffering and pain caused on both sides is a human tragedy. But on the other hand, he then continues by saying, there is a reason I do not use my professional platform for politics. What did you make of his statement and the message that he's sending out? I think that he is trying to maintain a relatively apolitical and neutral position. And that's fine. I think that's probably why we notice protest songs. We notice political musicians because that's not everybody.

8:26Here, he's got himself into this situation where, you know, he has booked, basically everybody who booked on his tour has sort of pro-Palestine sympathies. And yet, for whatever reason, that did not seem to sort of occur to him what might happen. It's almost somebody with a mindset from perhaps a different era collided with this reality. What do you make of that, Billy? Because of course, it does call into a wider question about the pressures artists face about how much they do get political or not. And you're someone who gets very political. I think you have to ask yourself about Ed Sheeran's motives.

9:01I mean, he can't have not known that McLemore was going to say Free Palestine on his tour. And I think by putting McLemore on the boo, he was hoping to get a bit of the kudos that goes with edgy music without actually committing to it himself. And it's blown up in its face in the worst way. Dorian, do you think it's blown up? And who do you think is going to come out better from all of this? Ed Sheeran or McLemore and the other artists? I don't. I mean, Ed Sheeran, who I've interviewed and who I liked as a person is obviously coming out of this very badly. You know, I do think that obviously, if we don't know all the details of what it would have meant to stand up to craft, what that means to the tour, other alternative venues available, what were the costs of that.

9:47But I mean, undoubtedly, what has happened is that everybody else on the bill has taken a stand for free speech. And, you know, and let's say that McLemore said nothing out of line here. It was a very simple free Palestine message. And Sheeran has ended up in this position where he seems that he does not support free speech and that he does not support the Palestinian cause, which, you know, I don't know whether that's entirely fair, but it's a pretty much a disaster for him. And Billy, do you have some sympathy for Ed Sheeran? Because in a way, he was almost forced into this decision. He had no choice, he might argue.

10:26I mean, yeah, he has been forced into this decision, but I think he may be being blindsided by the other acts on the bill. With all due respect to Macklemore, he's a big artist. But these guys, you know, this was a really big opportunity for them, a big, big platform for them. The Tour America in stadiums opening for an artist as big as Sheeran. But the fact that they've taken a stand, I hope will be inspirational to other young artists. Do you think, Billy, it could actually cost them in terms of their careers? Because, of course, getting on the line up with Ed Sheeran can be career changing, can't it?

11:01Of course it can, it can. But my experience over the years has been, for those of us who do want to talk about issues, there is always going to be people who are interested in that or connect with it. They might be in a minority, but they're still out there. And if you can find that audience, then they will sustain your career, whether you're playing with Ed Sheeran or not. I mean, Dorian, what do you think about all of this? I mean, in particular, this is, of course, relating to the Israel-Gaza war, which we've seen other incidents, for example, in Glastonbury, where there have been debates around free speech and what you can say on the conflict.

11:32I think that's why this does seem so shocking. If you look at what McLemore said, there was nothing outrageous in that. And I think what Kraft, the stadium owner, has misjudged and what I think a lot of people are misjudging is just how the sort of public mood has changed because of what has happened to Gaza. And Billy, I mean, all of this in some ways came about after the Israeli-American Council launched a petition demanding that McLemore was removed from the tour. As an artist yourself, I mean, I'm sure you faced pressures from different groups in terms of being able to raise a political point.

12:12You do get pressure. You do get people. I mean, sometimes it's as banal as people saying that you shouldn't mix politics and music. You know, I had some arguments with Pete Watterson, Kylie Minogue's producer in the 1980s, who didn't think pop should be political. But really, you know, particularly in the 20th century, pop music was the only social medium that young people had, and as such it had to reflect everything that was going on in the world. I mean, it's not so much that now, but I think this issue shows that pop music does still have teeth and it still can cause outrage. Can I ask you both what you think the audience will make of all of this, the people who will be turning up to Ed Sheeran's shows?

12:49I mean just fan bases when you're that big fan bases are so large you know like when when you two tour and Bono will make a particular statement against you know very critical of you know the American government or whatever and people are absolutely fuming in the audience and then he stops saying that and then he goes into another song and then they kind of go oh well we're back to this now it would be interesting to see how the tour unfolds because it's a bit suddenly it's kind of like a cursed tour, you know, and the scrutiny on anything he says or any protests in the audience is going to be enormous.

13:25Dorian Linsky and Billy Bragg there. Coming up on NewsHour, in Iran, the death of a young woman, Masa Amini, at the hands of the Morality Police ignited huge protests four years ago. What's changed for women in the country since then? Four years ago, if someone had told me that one day I would see women walking down the streets bravely and without the hijab, I probably wouldn't have believed them. Some of the other stories we're watching this hour and Ursula von der Leyen of the EU has backed a proposal for Canada to become the European Union's first associate member. It has its country's rift with the United States deepens.

14:06Rescuers in Gaza are searching for survivors. It's after a war damaged building collapsed overnight. More than 20 people have been killed. There's plenty more on those stories on the BBC News website.

14:26This is Rajini Vaidyanathan with NewsHour, coming to you live from the BBC in London. Let's take you to that story in Gaza and a multi-storey buildings collapsed in Gaza City, which had people inside at the time. Well, before the structure crumbled, it had been functioning as a makeshift home for several families who'd been displaced since the war. An earlier Israeli airstrike had already left the building damaged. While the Territory Civil Defence Agency says dozens of people are now missing and at least 20 people, including five children, have died. Despite the Israel-Gaza ceasefire, conditions inside the territory don't appear to have improved.

15:05The US-created Board of Peace was meant to oversee the ceasefire and initiate reconstruction as well as a gradual withdrawal of Israeli troops from the territory. But Israel has expanded its control and it still limits what reconstruction materials can be used in Gaza. So let's take a closer look at what's happened today. Yakau Silya is a special representative from the UNDP based in Jerusalem who's recently been in Gaza. A huge amount of people are missing. We have an estimate that between 70 to 100 people were in the six-story building that collapsed. So far, 20 bodies have been recovered, of which eight are children and six are women.

15:45And it is unfortunately a reality of the building situation and of the structural damages that there are in buildings that these types of collapse can happen at any moment. When you talk about structural state of the buildings, you mean following on from the conflict? There's an estimate that about 2 ,000 buildings have been damaged. There's about 300 to 400 buildings that have been severely damaged. And unfortunately, because of the current conditions, people are moving back into these buildings to look for better housing and shelter solutions. So this is really dangerous for people also in Gaza.

16:24We're still seeing some Israeli airstrikes in the territory as well. How does that all kind of impact the infrastructure in these areas and in terms of the buildings, the foundations that they're on? I think it really is a major challenge. The ongoing strikes is also causing further damage to buildings, obviously to life of people. But this also is an example of what happens if there are not proper precautionary measures taken for people to also ensure their safety. And unfortunately, the situation in Gaza at the moment is still very, very bad. The conditions that people are living under continues to deteriorate, especially the shelter and housing options.

17:07So what you find, unfortunately, is that people are taking the risk and moving into these buildings that have been severely damaged. They are living in these buildings, but the danger of collapse are always around them. What specifically caused this building that your teams are at right now to collapse? We're not sure about this. It's been looked at by local partners and local actors on the ground as well. But this is not the first time that some of these buildings have collapsed, unfortunately. So it can cause, you know, just a number of people have moved back into this building. So it can just be the weight that has resulted in this or people moving into the building.

17:46What we also have found in the past is that the deteriorating winter situation, especially rain and other factors also cause structural imbalance in the building and results in these types of collapse that we saw today. Was this building, for example, in an area where there had previously been Israeli airstrikes? It was significantly damaged by airstrikes and by the war. So these were buildings all around them that were significantly damaged. And if you drive through Gaza City, as I did last week, you know, there is total destruction of many, many buildings around you. About 80%, 85 % it is estimated of all buildings in Gaza have been either totally destroyed or partially destroyed.

18:32So this is something that people are living with on a daily basis in Gaza. What is being done to try and ensure that these structures are fortified and that they're strengthened so people can live in them and people can move back in to buildings which were damaged? We have provided what we call recovery housing units, which are temporary shelters where people are allowed to move back into their neighbourhoods and they have the opportunity to live close to their damaged houses and then start the rebuilding phase, which is absolutely crucial. Engineers need to make sure that they are structurally sound before that can happen.

19:10Unfortunately, people are not waiting for these assessments to happen to ensure safety and security. That's Yakao Silja there. Now, to so many the world over, it's London's beloved dinosaur museum, although its collection spans much more. The Natural History Museum is a special place. I remember my first visit as a young child, gazing up at the high ceilings and the bones and skeleton of a Tyrannosaurus rex, which towered above. Well, Having welcomed visitors for well over a century, the museum will, in a few years from now, celebrate its 150th anniversary. And as part of that build-up, it's opening a gallery which has been sealed off to the public for 80 years.

19:53In it, a new exhibition called Nature and Us, which explores our evolving relationship with the natural world through 50 remarkable objects. The BBC's Evan Davis went to the museum to find out more.

20:08Welcome to the Natural History Museum. My name's Doug Goer and I'm the Director of the Museum. Five years to go to your 150th anniversary at the Natural History Museum and you've got a new exhibition opening, Nature and Us. Absolutely, yes, Nature and Us, which is really all about that. What is our relationship between humanity and nature over time and space? Let's go and have a look. OK, so we're going behind the black screens that are currently covering the entrance to this gallery. We've got some staff here. So what you're in here is an enormous, long, spacious gallery. It's actually on the second floor.

20:46And because, as you say, for the last 70 or 80 years it's been used as a collection store, you can see all these rather wonderful cabinets. So we're bringing in a lot more global perspectives, we're really bringing back a lot of historical perspectives, and of course at the heart of it we have some pretty cool specimens in here.

21:04Well also with me here in the gallery is Isabel Davis who's one of the science leads in this exhibition. Now one thing that caught my eye, Star Wars figurine. What's this? Talk to me about this. So this gallery is trying to put interesting things together. So we've got one of the oldest figures in the world, about 40 ,000 years old. made out of mammoth cast, the Lion Man. And we've put it next to this little Star Wars figurine, which has been brought up from the bottom of the sea and colonised by bryozoans. So these are microscopic animals, one of the animals that can actually thrive on plastic.

21:44So it doesn't really look like... It doesn't look like a TIE fighter anymore. No, no, it doesn't. It's been transformed by nature. And this curious-looking scythe-type object, what is this? So this is a whaler's flensing knife and this really speaks to the social history of whaling. Obviously it was terrible, fatal for whales, but it's also for the actual people working as whalers. It was not an easy life. Where would this have come from then? I mean, we associate whaling with one or two countries now. Well, this one comes from South Georgia. So Falkland Island, sort of, around that part, South Atlantic, South Georgia.

22:20and we had a library open day recently and there were quite a few young people who had no idea that whaling was a thing and the extraordinary international efforts that were made in the 20th century to bring those numbers down so there is a kind of positive end to this. Coming back to Doug, the director 150 years in South Kensington as the Natural History Museum what would you say is the big difference between museums as they were then and now? What has not changed is museums are all about the collection. What's also not changed for our museum is that collection was put there for a dual purpose, for public display and also for scientific research.

23:00But here's what's changed. Go back even to when this building started, opened in 1881, the scientific mission was how do we classify and understand the natural world. That's not the mission today. The mission today is how do we protect and restore nature. And that is what this gallery is challenging. Evan Davis reporting there. Welcome back to NewsHour. Let's bring you an update on the ongoing Ebola outbreak in the Democratic Republic of Congo, which has now claimed more than 3 ,400 lives and infected thousands more. Well, despite the scale of the outbreak, there's still no approved vaccine for this latest strain, the Bundabugio strain.

23:41Well, Leanna Byrne examines what it takes and who pays to develop a vaccine. This outbreak is caused by the Bundabugio virus, for which there is no approved vaccine or specific treatment. But developing one is not only a scientific challenge. Someone has to pay. A Bundy Bugio vaccine would not have a predictable annual market. It may sit in a stockpile waiting for an outbreak. That makes it a difficult business proposition. Rachel Glenister is president of the Centre for Global Development. These vaccines are incredibly valuable to society, but not very profitable for companies. First, most people who will benefit from the Ebola vaccine will never actually take it.

24:24So think of all the people in communities and countries that it doesn't spread to because of the vaccine. There's no way that firms can charge them because they never take the vaccine. The first widely used Ebola vaccine shows how public money can help create that market. Ariba was developed by Canadian scientists. Gavi works with both the public and private sector. It's committed$7 million for 70 ,000 Eribo doses in the DRC and is offering up to$40 million for Bundibugio-specific vaccines. David Kinder is Gavi's Director of Development Finance. We have over 20 vaccines against different diseases that we help protect children around the world for.

Read the full transcript

25:06And those costs actually range from as little as just over a dollar a dose up to$100 a dose for some of the most expensive vaccines, which are often the new, the novel ones, or the ones against rare diseases such as Ebola. But the dose is only one part of the bill. Dr Al-Hassan Touré is the World Health Organization's research lead in Bunia, an eastern DRC. We need trained researchers, vaccination teams, like I say, laboratories, specimen transportation, vehicles, culture, infrastructure, data system, safety monitoring, participant follow-up and quality assurance. and those things require a lot of money.

25:44And that capacity must exist before an outbreak. Dr. Toure points to Uganda's experience during outbreaks of another Ebola virus. Uganda team during 2022, we established a platform, trial platform, that took us 11 weeks to be established. And when they had a new sudden Ebola outbreak in 2025, it was not prepared to be spoke. was activating the existing platform. And it took us only three days to activate a high-standard local trial platform. So this is the way forward. So funding vaccines means paying for capacity before a crisis. Otherwise, researchers, manufacturers and health workers are racing a virus that already has a head start.

26:30The money buys vaccines, but just as importantly, it buys time. Liana Byrne reporting there.

26:48You're listening to NewsHour from the BBC World Service. I'm Rajini Vaidynarvan. Kosovo's former president, Hashim Daci, has been sentenced to 25 years in prison for counts including illegal arrests, torture, murder and cruel treatment during the Balkans conflict of the 1990s. He's been convicted of four counts of war crimes committed during his country's war for independence from Serbia. Well, Tim Duda's a special correspondent for The Economist covering the Balkans and Ukraine. And he joins us live now. First of all, welcome to NewsHour, Tim. And just tell us a bit more about the crimes that he's been sentenced for.

27:29Well, it's interesting because he's been especially sentenced for the crime of murder. but there are of a relatively small amount of people. I think it's less than 100 people. It's a relatively small amount of people. But also crimes of arbitrary detention against 385 individuals, cruel treatment against 49 and torture of 303. I found the figure and participation in the murder of some 96 people. And this is over how many years? Well, this was between 1998 and 1999, the period of the Kosovo War, until the time of NATO's intervention in the spring of 1999. And Tim, why did it take so long for this case to be prosecuted?

28:22All of these war crimes trials, this Kosovo Special Tribunal Specialist Chambers, all of this has been taken an incredibly long time. And Mr. Tharch has been in jail, along with his colleagues, for six years already. So, you know, but I think that unfortunately that's par for the course, because the precursor to this was the UN's own international criminal tribunal for the former Yugoslavia. And there again, those trials took an incredibly long time. And there were others who were also sentenced alongside him. There were three other senior leaders of the Kosovo Liberation Army who then went on to become important politicians in Kosovo after the war.

29:10I mean, the thing that's interesting, though, which I'd like to say here is that what is interesting is that the judgment seems to emphasize above all the murders and attacks on actually ethnic Albanians rather than Serb civilians. And it talks about alleged collaborators. It seems to make a sort of it seems to sort of emphasize that because we've already seen some Serbs saying, for example, Milorad Dodik, the leader of the Bosnian Serbs, saying that this makes a mockery of international justice because it's not putting emphasis on crimes committed against Serb civilians. But we'll see what Alexander Vucic, the president of Serbia, thinks in a couple of hours.

29:57He's due to speak to the nation at 6.30 this evening. Yeah, we'll stay across that, Tim. And just briefly, there was some unrest on the streets of The Hague outside the courthouse. What was that all about? I think it was just a general shock and anger. And there's been some shock and anger across Kosovo itself. and there was some stone throwing against the headquarters of the EU's police force, ULEX. But I mean, you know, it could have been a lot worse. But politically, we have no idea how this is going to play out. OK, Tim Judah, thank you very much for appearing on News Owl.

30:39She was the 22-year-old Iranian woman whose death sparked anti-government protests in the country and the Woman Life Freedom movement. It's been four years since Masa Amini died, just days after she was arrested by Iran's morality police for allegedly wearing her hijab improperly. What's changed for women's rights since those demonstrations and now the US war with Iran? The BBC's Persian service Gonche Habib-Eziad has this report.

31:09Woman Life Freedom. It was the defining chant of a protest movement. sparked by the death of a young woman while in custody of Iran's morality police.

31:22After the death of Mahsa Amini, videos of women dancing and appearing in public without mandatory hijabs went viral. Across Iran, women ripped off and burned their headscarves in solidarity.

31:37The authorities responded with a brutal crackdown. The UN says more than 500 protesters were killed. The mass protests eventually subsided, but the movement did not simply disappear from Iran's society. Speaking out is not safe, so all the voices you'll hear have been voiced by BBC Persian producers, like this 20-year-old from Tehran. I think what connected us to Mahsa was the fact that she was one of us. Four years ago, if someone had told me that one day I would see women walking down the streets, bravely and without the hijab, I probably wouldn't have believed them. And these changes are not limited to the capital.

32:20A young woman in Rashid, a city in northern Iran, told us, You can see it in the way the city looks. Some families have become a bit more open-minded too. These days, they left their daughters go out wearing tops or even short skirts. There is more freedom than before, in shops, in taxi and cars. But that greater sense of freedom does not mean the mandatory hijab law has gone away. You won't take my daughter anywhere, a distressed mother shouts. This video was sent to us from Tehran two years ago. A woman is being taken away by the morality police, just like Mahsa. Away from the streets, women are still being monitored online.

33:01And while arrests in public appear to be less frequent, some fear they could flare up again. They stopped my friend's car and asked, where's your headscarf? I'm scared. I'm scared the crackdown will happen all over again. And honestly, I don't have the mental capacity for it. The war with the US and Israel appears to have changed the government's priorities. and one senior Iranian figure says enforcing the hijab law is currently a lower priority. The changes have also sparked a backlash. One young man I spoke to who lives near Tehran said the issues had become polarising. Dressing appropriately is different from wearing the hijab in my opinion but it feels like some women are taking their resentment towards the hijab to an extreme.

33:48An opposition to the changes now seen on Iranian streets is inconfined to men. A group of religious women gathered in central province of Isfahan recently. Man, where is your dignity? Where is your wife's hijab? They chant. The hijab law must be enforced, another chant says. But their views are far from universal inside Iran. That's Gonche Habibi Azad reporting there. In recent days, it's been hard to avoid talk of doomsday scenarios when it comes to the future of artificial intelligence. And we've heard politicians and tech bosses argue over how much AI should be regulated. President Trump's among those who say claims artificial intelligence will destroy the world are a hoax.

34:40He's less keen on oversight, but the European Union is one body which is calling for more. Brando Benefey is the rapporteur of the European AI Act for the European Parliament and an MEP. He's been speaking about his concerns when it comes to AI. The risks of these technologies are well known for already some time. We didn't need Dario Amode or Sam Altman to make speeches in the last weeks to know what we are talking about. We have been working on this already for some time, especially the European Union has been developing a framework for safety that has been the benchmark for the whole of the world.

35:21I think it's a very important time now to look into operationalization of these safety measures to avoid the loss of control, mismanagement of data, cybersecurity attacks. To do this, we need global cooperation and we need capacity. This means also European capacity. now we have a lot of countries UK, Canada, Australia that just to mention a few that in the last weeks have been saying this that want to work together with us for this broader safety for AI. Okay I want to jump in if I may because the two countries you didn't mention there were America and China who have a different view perhaps on regulating AI.

36:07Well, it depends because in US, if you talk to legislators and governments of states like California, New York and Illinois and Colorado, just to mention a few, they are doing exactly this. Well, the president has rejected, the president himself has rejected calls for greater safety. So you are up against a challenge in terms of getting global cooperation if the US president's not on board. Yeah, as I was saying, the federal level of the US, however, at the moment is going in a different direction. But obviously, US and China are crucial for this effort to happen. But like when we had to deal with nuclear weapons regulation, we couldn't do that without Russia and US, obviously.

36:53So this is what we are talking about. We need global cooperation for these basic safety concerns that are now clearer and clearer. Ursula von der Leyen said earlier that she's going to invite the main frontier labs for a discussion on how to support industry efforts to, I quote, pace the frontier. Does that sound like something that's decisive? It doesn't sound very clear about what that means. That's not action. It's having a discussion. Talking with the developers, it's what we have done to develop our safety framework. That's how we should do things. But in the end, there is public responsibility to take decisions which cannot be taken by just following what the big tech leaders tell us.

37:37Because they are not interested in the public good. They are interested in profit. And it's fine. That's their job. But the job of the government and of the public institutions is to care about the broader societal good and the survival of humanity in the medium term. And Mr. Benefey, there is an argument, isn't there, that if the EU is regulating and perhaps slowing down the pace of AI advancement, while China and the US are not adopting such regulations, that the EU is simply going to fall behind because technology moves at a rapid pace. These are different topics because... But it's a valid topic, isn't it?

38:19Because if the EU, in some view, over-regulates, it's going to be left behind. I think it's a bit more complicated than that because when EU didn't regulate anything, it was already behind US and China. You can easily check that. The problem is that the EU has been not working for convergence, reducing fragmentation, having a financial market that was unified enough to invest in this sector, taking the risks that are necessary and having compute infrastructure at a certain degree. But regulation, obviously, if it happens only in one way, it will not work for the most difficult tasks. It can work for the smaller ones, but not for the bigger ones.

39:03So obviously, as I said, we need to work for regulatory convergence. Otherwise, we are talking about a catastrophe that no one understands. The catastrophe is not tomorrow. But if we risk losing control of AI, it might take more time, but it can become a real, real problem for all humanity. So we need to be rational. We need to be serious about the importance also and important advantages that AI can provide. But we also need to be working together to contain the risks. That's the Member of the European Parliament, Brando Benefiver, who leads on AI.

39:47This is Rajini Vaidyanathan with NewsHour, coming to you live from the BBC in London. You don't need to look at a map to know how far Canada is from the European Union. And while the two are physically far apart, they are, of course, much closer politically. And as ties between Canada and its neighbour America have become increasingly strained since President Trump returned to power, Canada's forging stronger bonds with Europe. So much so that earlier, the head of the EU backed a proposal for Canada to become the EU's first ever associate member. Here's Ursula von der Leyen speaking in Strasbourg, and Mark Carney, Canada's Prime Minister, was in the audience.

40:28We want to bring the relationship with Canada to the highest level possible. And dear Mark, I said we must urgently reimagine our partnerships So I would like to work with you on opening the door for Canada to being the first associate member of the European Union. Well, this new possible partnership comes as Canada's fighting a hugely costly trade war with the US, a country which normally takes in more than 70 % of its exports. Prime Minister Mark Carney's promised to fight that battle by finding new markets for Canadian products. Well, that's what the Canadian Prime Minister had to say earlier about why he wants his country to be closer to the EU.

41:18We're also deepening ties with our most trusted partners. We are the only non-European member of SAFE, the EU's defence procurement initiative. initiative. And next month, we will begin discussions with the EU, the world's second largest economy to build a unique security and economic alliance. Our core objective of all these partnerships is to increase our sovereignty, our strategic autonomy. Because, as I said earlier, we live in a world where integration has been weaponized. Because a a country that cannot feed, fuel or defend itself is not truly sovereign. So what could the EU get from this and what could Canada gain as well?

42:06Well, Natalie Tucci is a professor of practice at the John Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies and she's a former special advisor to EU high representatives Federica Mogherini and Joseph Burrell. Welcome to NewsHour, Natalie. First of all, what exactly is associate membership of the EU? I've certainly not heard of that before, have you? Well, that's the thing. We don't know. We know so far it's a label. I guess we know what it isn't, and it isn't what particularly a country like Canada, given that it's the first country to whom it's been offered, already has. So it's obviously not a free trade agreement because Canada already has the CETA agreement.

42:46It's not a security and defence partnership that enables participation in SAFE because Canada already has that. So it's more than this, right? Now, von der Leyen didn't actually specify what this means. What we can imagine is that, given that she was making reference to it in talking about a broader alliance with Canada, is basically how is it that, let's call it, the rest of the West can huddle together closer to face the security and strategic predicament that we're in, which is basically, particularly in Europe, but war on the continent against Russia and the betrayal, question mark, of the United States and the challenge of China.

43:32Right. So I think that's the sort of strategic context. Now, practically what it could mean, but this is, as I said, pure speculation, because the commission president didn't actually get into it. We could imagine forms in which Canadian officials, Canadian leaders participate in various formations. of the European Council as observers. So they wouldn't be participating in decision making, but they would be, by virtue of actually being in the room, contribute to decision shaping, particularly, as I said, on those areas of strategic relevance. I think you might be waiting to catch a train or something.

44:12I can hear the sound in the background. We're talking about connections that you might be about to make, but what about the connections across Europe? Because how do European capitals feel about this idea? Certainly Ursula von der Leyen's very excited about it. But are nation states as pleased? Well, again, you know, it really depends on how this label is then substantiated. And at this point, it's an open call. And I think, you know, von der Leyen deliberately made it rather open and vague, because now the discussion needs to begin. I think, to be honest, that member states are on a whole willing to discuss and figure out what other forms of, let's call it, differentiated integration the European Union might be able to offer.

44:59As we know, particularly since Russia's invasion of Ukraine, the question of enlargement has been back on the agenda in a very dominant way, both reviving prospects for the Western Balkans and, of course, Ukraine and Moldova. but it's you know the enlargement process has been defined and designed in and for times of peace and so I think member states in general do have an interest in exploring what else you know could be put on the table that is perhaps better able to capture the strategic moment that Europe is facing today. What's different about this from say the coalition of the willing which is all about of course, building a group of countries as the threat from Russia is seen to be increasing, because from what you've described, it could be quite similar.

45:49Absolutely. And I think, you know, we're in this extremely complicated moment in which the institutions that we have, NATO on the one hand, the European Union on the other, are basically not fully fit for purpose in terms of addressing the fundamental question, which is how does Europe defend itself against Russia without America? And so we basically see all of these alternative ideas or perhaps complementary ideas popping up. Coalition of the Willing, the idea which, again, von der Leyen raised of a European Security Council. Now this idea of associate membership, a Europeanized NATO, right, in the context of NATO.

46:27Now, they're not necessarily incompatible ideas, but I think they all drive to the same conundrum, which is the institutions that we established 80 years ago, right, were built for an era that is no longer with us. And you talk about eras changing. What do you think President Trump's going to make all of this? I mean, surely this will just antagonise him further. Well, who knows? I mean, we know he doesn't like the European Union at all. And we know that he doesn't like Canada very much. Or perhaps he likes Canada a little bit too much and would like to have it. but so in principle I guess the reaction would be negative now you know associate membership it's all very technical and perhaps slightly grey and bureaucratic and perhaps doesn't quite cut the mark in terms of the kind of things that Trump gets excited about so perhaps it's simply gonna fall below the radar.

47:20Okay Natalie Tocci thank you very much for exploring that idea of course we will only know what exactly it means when we find out more from the EU and Canada themselves. Well that ends this edition of NewsHour. I'm Rajini Vaidyanathan. From myself and the team, thanks to all of you for listening, wherever you are.

47:59Good Bad Billionaire, and more. Plus, there's all the other great benefits you get with a BBC subscription, from live streaming the BBC News Channel and acclaimed documentaries to in-depth analysis and features. Visit bbc.com forward slash subscribe to find out more.

From the publisher

One of the world's biggest music stars - Ed Sheeran faces the biggest controversy of his career, as his support acts on his tour quit when fellow musician Macklemore was dropped from the line up following his speech in support of a 'Free Palestine'. The speech drew controversy when his comments led to a petition from the Israeli American Council demanding his removal from the tour. It was successful, and other musicians dropped out in solidarity.

Also on the programme: Ursula von der Leyen has backed a proposal for Canada to become the European Union's first associate member, as the country's rift with the United States deepens and the Natural History Museum opens a gallery sealed off to the public for more than 80 years.

(Photo: Ed Sheeran gig Credit: Jon Wright, BBC)

(Photo: Credit:)

More from Newshour

All 220 episodes
Ed Sheeran's support acts quit tour in support of Macklemore's 'Free Palestine' commentsNewshour · 47 min
Listen in VO