In short
Berlin Pride attack and the ensuing security response; includes broader discussion of car-ramming terrorism and threats to mass events.
Guests (and backgrounds)
- Julian Mietich: Pride parade attendee; witnessed evacuation and initial chaos.
- Daniel Tonner-Leva: Pride attendee; described seeing evacuation begin and hearing stage announcements.
- Michael Steininger: BBC reporter in Berlin; describes scene and investigation.
- Kai Böller: board member of the German Pride Organiser Association; helps explain organisers’ decision to end/evacuate.
- Hans-Jakob Schindler: senior director at Germany’s Counter-Extremism Project; analyses security and threat landscape.
Key claims
- Police are hunting the driver of a white van that killed 1 and injured 16 at the Tiergarten/Brandenburg Gate parade area; suspect identified as “Abdul B” with alleged Islamist links.
- Organisers ended the event as information emerged; Böller says Pride must continue despite being targets.
- Schindler argues car-ramming is an effective, hard-to-secure method; physical barriers have limits and attackers can exploit gaps beyond cordons.
Notable examples
- References to prior German car attacks (e.g., Christmas markets in 2024 and 2016; Munich May 2025 demonstration attack).
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOChancellor's Response to Attack
0:00 to 0:37
Discussion on the Chancellor's remarks regarding the car attack at Berlin Pride.
“This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.”
Chancellor's Response to Attack
1:25 to 1:51
Discussion on the Chancellor's remarks regarding the car attack at Berlin Pride.
“In Germany, the Chancellor, Friedrich Merz, has called an attack on one of Europe's biggest pride events in Berlin, an attack on society.”
Eyewitness Accounts of the Attack
1:51 to 2:58
Julian Mietich and Daniel Tonner-Leva share their experiences during the attack.
“We have a beautiful quiet today and now it's a terrible situation.”
Details of the Car Attack
3:16 to 4:07
Michael Steininger reports on the details surrounding the attack at the Pride event.
“Well, the annual Pride Parade happens in Berlin in front of the Brandenburg Gate.”
Public Reaction and Suspect Background
4:13 to 5:27
Discussion on public reaction and details about the suspected attacker.
“Well, at Brandenburg Gate, the picture is as you would expect it to be after a big street fest like yesterday's.”
Reflections from Pride Organizers
5:30 to 7:24
Kai Böller discusses the implications of the attack on the Pride community.
“Kai Böller is a member of the board of the German Pride Organiser Association.”
Security Concerns and Historical Context
7:26 to 11:21
Hans-Jakob Schindler addresses security issues regarding public events in Germany.
“but also a lot of attacks in the real world.”
The Islamist Threat in Germany
11:24 to 13:52
Schindler discusses the scale and nature of the Islamist threat in Germany.
“But as far as the physical barriers are concerned, I think this is now a case where you can demonstrate the limits of what you can do.”
Berlin Pride Car Attack
14:36 to 15:14
Discussion on the car attack at Berlin's Pride Parade and its implications.
“the German Chancellor says a car attack on Berlin's Pride Parade by a man with alleged Islamist links was an attack on German society.”
Palestinian Patients' Journey
15:14 to 15:40
Exploration of Palestinian patients seeking medical care in Israel amidst conflict.
“I'm Paul Henley with NewsHour, live from the BBC.”
Show all 22 chapters
Life Under Tension
15:40 to 16:34
Personal experiences of a Palestinian patient navigating checkpoints and fear.
“for Israelis and Palestinians to speak and to build trust.”
A Story of Unlikely Friendship
16:34 to 19:16
Highlighting the relationship between Nasser, Myron, and their journey together.
“Thankfully, nothing has happened to me personally, but I always stay cautious.”
Meta's Smart Glasses Backlash
19:16 to 20:38
Discussion on the controversy surrounding Meta's new smart glasses.
“driving Nasser and his mother, Supper, wearing a hijab.”
Concerns Over Smart Glasses
20:38 to 23:45
Expert insights into the ethical implications of recording technology.
“part of the documentary podcast series here on the BBC World Service.”
Archbishop's Visit to West Africa
25:15 to 28:00
Discussion on the Archbishop of Canterbury's visit to Ghana and its implications.
“The head of the Anglican Church, the Archbishop of Canterbury, has begun a visit to West Africa, Ghana and Cameroon.”
Anglican Church and Homosexuality in Ghana
28:00 to 28:52
Explore the stance of the Anglican Church in Ghana regarding homosexuality.
“In Ghana, we have our own way of doing a lot of things.”
Wildfires Ravaging France and Spain
29:02 to 29:54
Details on the severe wildfires affecting large areas in France and Spain.
“with hundreds of thousands of people affected.”
On-the-Ground Reports from Affected Areas
29:54 to 35:36
Live accounts from journalists and locals about the wildfire situation near Bordeaux.
“The French fires are profoundly affecting parts of the country not usually associated with this kind of summer phenomenon.”
Aerial Firefighting Insights from a Pilot
35:36 to 41:42
A detailed discussion with an aerial firefighting pilot about the challenges faced in combatting wildfires.
“west of Bordeaux, with his wife and children.”
Political Landscape Under New Leadership
41:42 to 42:00
Discussion about Britain's new Prime Minister's stance on international relations and defense.
“This is the BBC World Service and NewsHour.”
Andy Burnham's Foreign Policy Stance
42:00 to 46:12
Discusses Andy Burnham's approach to foreign policy and defense spending.
“has said he would publicly oppose President Trump if it meant defending this country's national interest.”
The Cultural Significance of American Diners
46:12 to 49:41
Explores the role of American diners in film and their cultural symbolism.
“With these all-American eating establishments, the diners aren't just beloved by legions of Route 66 buffs, they're also favoured by filmmakers who've used them as locations for some of cinema's most memorable scenes.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.
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1:17Hello, welcome to the programme. This is NewsHour from the BBC World Service. My name's Paul Henley. We're coming to you live from London. In Germany, the Chancellor, Friedrich Merz, has called an attack on one of Europe's biggest pride events in Berlin, an attack on society. Police are still searching for the driver of a vehicle that rammed into a crowd last night, killing a woman and injuring 16 people. They have, however, issued a photo of the man they think was responsible and a name, Abdul B, with the German media filling in gaps already. Julian Mietich was at the parade when the attack happened.
1:54We have a beautiful quiet today and now it's a terrible situation. Yeah, it's very difficult for me. I'm shocked. Daniel Tonner-Leva was also at the event. He told the BBC what he saw. I was right in front of the main stage waiting for my favourite acts to perform when the evacuation started. Nobody knew what was happening, but as soon as they went on stage and said that, I immediately knew something really bad happened. It was really difficult because you don't know. You, of course, start to try to open your phone to open the news, but it was all so fast. There was no news about it. You just see tons of blue lights, helicopters all over the city.
2:54You don't know where to go. You don't know if you're safe. They say just leave the area, go home. But where? And like 10, 20 minutes later, the first news come in. But it was all like a lot. Our reporter Michael Steininger is in Berlin and joins me live. Michael, welcome. Can you describe exactly what happened? Well, the annual Pride Parade happens in Berlin in front of the Brandenburg Gate. It's hundreds of thousands of people, and that was the case last night as well, hundreds of thousands of people filling the main road leading up to the Brandenburg Gate, raveling, partying, dancing, singing, watching a concert happening.
3:41That main road, which leads up to the Bundaberg Gate, goes through a huge park, the Tiergarten Park. It's bigger than Hyde Park in London. And on the fringe, on the southern fringe of that park, is when at around 10 o 'clock last night, a white van ramped into a crowd of people who were either going or coming from that parade and killed one person and injured 16 others. What is the scene now following the abrupt end of the Pride event? Well, at Brandenburg Gate, the picture is as you would expect it to be after a big street fest like yesterday's. People are kind of de-rigging the stage. There's a lot of debris that's being cleared from partying, empty bottles and paper cups.
4:33But just a bit down the road, just across in the park, there's police tape, white and red. and there's this white van still crashed into a tree where it came to a halt after yesterday's attack. We quoted Friedrich Merz. What reaction has there been in Germany? Well, there's shock, there's outrage. There is already some questions coming up because we put together bit by bit the picture of who the suspected attacker is And it is known that he has sympathies with IS, that he has kind of Islamist leanings and had connections to Islamist circles. So there will be questions asked why this man was out and about and able to commit this attack, if indeed that was what happened.
5:26Michael Steininger reporting live from Berlin. Many thanks. Kai Böller is a member of the board of the German Pride Organiser Association. He was at the event in Berlin. I asked him first how things unfolded from his point of view. We get noticed that some incident was happened. No one knows exactly what it was. And then the organising team decided to end the event and to evacuate everyone. It was a huge decision to make to call off something on this scale. Yeah, but then more and more information dropped in and we knew it was a very horrible thing happened at the Tiergarten. And so it was the best decision we could make to secure all these people.
6:17And what is your reaction to what happened? I'm deeply shocked. The whole community in Germany is deeply shocked today. We all realize this morning what happened there. I mean, we heard it, we remember Orlando, we remember the things in Munich, in Magdeburg, the things in Bautzen and Leipzig two years ago, but now this happened in the heart of our nation. In the run-up to this event, the organisers were talking about a harsher social climate, more anti-gay sentiment. Tell me about that. Oh, yeah. We recognize the last two years a strong growth of anti-gay attitudes. We have this right-wing party in the parliament, the AfD, and they drove campaigns against queer people, we can talk this, and against migrants and very, very violent speech they use.
7:24and we can see that there are a lot of attacks in the digital world but also a lot of attacks in the real world. People get attacked in person over the last two years more and more. The police seem pretty clear that this was an Islamist attack. What do you make of that? Yeah, but there is nearly no difference between these right-wing attacks and Islamic attacks. They both, they are convinced that people have different worth, that there are right people and that there are false people. No different between these two ideologies. Have you got thoughts on the security at events like this? It's clearly not possible to protect everyone on their way to such an event.
8:11Yeah, it's not possible. Here are hundreds of thousands of people. You can't protect them from everything possible. If there is one human being with a will to harm people, to attack them, he will do it. And so we are all doing our best to create safer spaces. But there is no 100 % safe space possible. Does what's happened make you more determined to carry on organizing mass events like these? Are they more important? Yeah, they are more important. it's very important that we don't step back now, that we make ourselves invisible. It's important that we stand together, that we go out and that we show ourselves.
9:02Yeah, it's more important now. Even if that makes you targets? Even if that, we are targets at all. We will be targets even if we disappear in the invisible. We will be targets. So there's no difference. We have to fight against making us targets and we have to convince the civil community to protect us. Kai Böller, one of the organisers of Berlin Gay Pride. Hans-Jakob Schindler is one of Germany's most renowned experts on security. He's senior director at the Counter-Extremism Project in Berlin. I put it to Mr Schindler that in releasing a name and a photograph, the police must be pretty certain who'd been responsible.
9:46Yes, because he is still at large. The police is trying to inform the public as much as possible because the individual continues to be deemed dangerous. And of course, there's a clear warning to inform the police, but in no way, shape or form approach the individual should anyone encounter him in Berlin. Germany is becoming somewhat infamous for car ramming attacks. I believe there have been four in the last four years. What do you make of that? It's correct. Unfortunately, this has been proven to be an effective tool of terrorism because it is, on the one hand, very inconspicuous and doesn't require complicated preparation.
10:24On the other hand, it is very hard to really secure large scale events. And we had large scale events being attacked by cars. On the one hand, of course, the horrible attack on the Christmas market in 2024 with an anti-Islamist, but also, of course, the attack with a car at the Christmas market in 2016 by an IS member. Or more recently, in May 2025, the attack on a demonstration in Munich, again by someone being radicalized by ISIS. The problem here was that the event itself was sufficiently secured. And what happened was that a group of people either coming or going to the event in the park next to the event were attacked by this car.
11:13So there wasn't a particular vulnerability here? Well, there has been a dead and quite a lot of injured. So, of course, something has gone majorly wrong and we will have to do an analysis. But as far as the physical barriers are concerned, I think this is now a case where you can demonstrate the limits of what you can do. The physical barriers are always the last line of defense. If the perpetrator gets to that last line of defense, there's always a risk that he will find a gap. Now, here the gap was people going to and from the event. So the question is, how far outside can you physically push the security cordon?
11:53Or would you have to close down the entire centre of Berlin because there's a major event? So this will all be part, of course, of very detailed investigations, I'm quite sure, in this case. And those physical barriers, those concrete barriers to traffic are a hallmark, aren't they, at public events in Germany now? Unfortunately, because of all of these terror attacks on major events and Christmas markets, this has become, unfortunately, a feature. and for this event too the main part of the event so the big four lane road leading to the Brandenburg Gate was closed not on the day of the event but several days ahead of the event and there were physical barriers also in the park right next to the event but the attack happened slightly Tiergarten is a huge park in the center of Berlin so the attack happened at the other end of the park and then it really is a question of how far can you push the security cordon or should you push the security corner.
12:50The police inquiry will obviously be into the Islamist threat now. What is the scale of that in your estimation in Germany at the moment? Well, unfortunately, we do have a diverse threat just from the Islamist scene. Obviously, when we're talking about the CSD, the Pride Parade, you also have to take into account that there could be threats from the right-wing extremist scene, who is always hating on the CSD as much as the Islamists do. But we do have a Hamas sympathizer scene in Germany and Berlin. We have a Hezbollah sympathizer scene, and we had not as many as you had in London, but also one attack organized by this ominous high network, who turned out to be a co-production of Iraqi Shia militias with the IRGC, the Revolutionary Guard Intelligence Service of Iran, hiring criminals through these attacks.
13:43And then, of course, you have the general threat by IS, both from Afghanistan, but also from other parts of IS, because IS is growing globally quite substantially at this point again. Hans-Jakob Schindler, who is Senior Director of Germany's Counter-Extremism Project, you're with the BBC World Service. We're live from London. This is NewsHour.
14:14Coming up, the BBC's Tom Brook explores why the all-American diner is still so popular in Hollywood. I've seen people sobbing uncontrollably after a breakup at a diner. I've seen people celebrating at a diner. That sense of the unexpected is very much a draw for filmmakers because anything could happen. The headlines this hour. the German Chancellor says a car attack on Berlin's Pride Parade by a man with alleged Islamist links was an attack on German society. A third of a million people in France and Spain have now been ordered to leave their homes to escape wildfires, and Israeli settlers have set fire to two mosques in the occupied West Bank as tensions with Palestinians continue.
15:14I'm Paul Henley with NewsHour, live from the BBC. Every day, dozens of Palestinian patients from the occupied West Bank cross into Israel for desperately needed specialised medical care that they can't get at home. Waiting to drive them to hospital are Israeli volunteers, and they've increased in number since the October 7th attacks of 2023, Since the war started, it's become an increasingly rare space for Israelis and Palestinians to speak and to build trust. It's a meeting of two worlds amid the trauma of war. The BBC's Naomi Sherbal Ball has been joining the patients and volunteers for the car journeys from the checkpoints to hospitals inside Israel.
15:58Every week, 24-year-old Nasser Adi stands with his mother on the edge of Beit Umar in the occupied West Bank, waiting for a lift to hospital in Israel. Heightened tensions in the West Bank after Hamas' October 7th attacks and the war in Gaza that followed, as well as the recent unprecedented rise in settler violence, make his journey for treatment even more fraught. The situation is always dense. If anyone starts any problem at the checkpoint or carries an impact, the impact can affect us all. So I am always on guard. Thankfully, nothing has happened to me personally, but I always stay cautious.
16:45There isn't any prostitutes. I still have Jewish friends, but at the same time, there is fear. And it goes both ways. They are also afraid of Arabs. Nasser is one of thousands of Palestinian patients who are treated in Israeli hospitals every year, paid for by the Palestinian Authority. He suffers from a rare enzyme disorder which can be life-threatening. Even leaving Nasser's home is far from straightforward. Just arrived at one of the entrances to Beit Umar. There's a bright orange gate which straddles the road into town. and most of the roads that provide access to the town have been blocked in this way for much of the war.
17:30The Israeli military say that it's a security measure. But it makes life here very difficult, preventing residents from driving in and out of town. And so at the gate, people have to get out and then walk across the Orange Gate and take another car or taxi to continue their journey.
17:57Despite the bleak outlook, the family has an unlikely ally trying to support them.
18:0778-year-old Myron Joshua from a neighbouring settlement laughs and chats in Hebrew with Nasser and his family. I definitely became what I call an unsettled settler. Myron is a volunteer from Road to Recovery, a charity which drives Palestinian patients from the West Bank to hospital in Israel. He lives in Kva Etsyon, the first Israeli settlement to be built in the West Bank, in 1967. Under international law, settlements are illegal. I can understand Israelis who look to me and say, but if you're so unsettled about what's happening, why don't you just leave? If I close my eyes and my life to what's going on here, I don't know if I'm contributing to the future.
18:50By living here, I have the naive feeling that I can hopefully be a thorn in the side of my co-settlers and that I can also reach out to Palestinians and help them in ways I couldn't do it in the past. Driving through the checkpoint into Israel every week, the group casts an unusual image. Myron, an Orthodox Jew, wearing a kippah, driving Nasser and his mother, Supper, wearing a hijab. Myron calls it a tent of Abraham. The minute young people don't come into contact with Israelis, the fact that Israelis don't come into contact with Palestinians, we demonize each other. But since October 7th, it's almost as if we're building the fear, but the fear is real, the fear is true, but we're like casting it in cement, making it so we can't deal with it.
19:44Last year, 55 ,000 visits by Palestinian patients were approved by Israel, 50 % more than the year before. According to international law, as an occupying power in the West Bank, Israel does have a legal obligation to provide access to health care, but a third of patients and the carers who request to cross with them still had their permits refused by Israel. For those that navigate the permissions needed, these volunteer drivers make that access to life-saving treatment possible. It's actually grown from taking him to the hospital to friendship, to almost a partnership. And I'd be creating hope, right?
20:24But I pray to feel that one day be hopeful. I'm a pessimist. A realist. Naomi Sherbel Ball reporting. You can hear more about their journey on Driving Across the Divide, part of the documentary podcast series here on the BBC World Service.
20:46Now, an endorsement by the entrepreneur and high-profile celebrity Kylie Jenner can make a difference to a brand. She has over 380 million followers on Instagram, so when she teamed up with Meta to provide a new version of its smart AI glasses, a version that uses her own voice as the AI assistant in the glasses, it was always going to attract attention. Perhaps, though, not the attention that had been hoped for, because there's been a backlash online and on social media worldwide, with some people calling the glasses deeply creepy and dystopian due to concerns over privacy. Among other things that they can do, the glasses are able to record people without them knowing.
21:27We asked some people here in London what they thought of them. At the moment you see a lot more negativity about it with invading people's privacy and not giving people the chance to know that they're being recorded. I guess it really kind of comes down to who do you want to have your information? Do you want Meta to have it? Do you want the government to have it? Do you want to have it? Because you'll never have it. But I mean, sometimes it's funny to see just like a glimpse into someone's life. That I'm not opposed to is the kind of like taking advantage of people not knowing that you're recording them.
22:00Kind of like, I'm trying to get something out of this, but you kind of don't really know that. Well, I actually work in AI, so I do think that smart glasses are actually a pretty good thing. I do think that this is something that we can incorporate into our daily life, which makes people slowly start to realize that AI can be used in a good way. On the most part, I do think it's very helpful. Dr Sarah Saska is a Canadian entrepreneur and tech expert. She is co-founder and CEO of Feminuity, a consultancy focusing on responsible approaches to technology. And she explained what the concerns were about Meta's smart glasses.
22:40The Meta Ray-Ban glasses are camera glasses that also include audio and sensors that people wear on their face. And ultimately, they record your point of view as you go throughout your day, throughout your home, throughout life, and they send that data back to meta. They're fairly undetectable. But in many places in the world, our laws, our policies, regulations just haven't kind of caught up for this, right? This technology is outpacing some of those more archaic systems. I think at a fundamental level, the issue is that we cannot opt out of someone else's glasses, right? So for the most part, the onus is on the wearer ultimately to not exploit the technology, right?
23:22There have been stories about folks who are part of the LGBTQ community, say, being outed, right, without their consent because they've been captured. These glasses have led to different forms of stalking, right, matching a face to a name to someone's workplace or their address. People have captured footage that they have then used for different forms of extortion. Canadian tech entrepreneur Sarah Saskia there. You're listening to the BBC World Service, live from London. It's NewsHour.
24:14We all belong outside. We're drawn to nature. Whether it's the recorded sounds of the ocean we doze off to, or the succulents that adorn our homes. Nature makes all of our lives, well, better. Despite all this, we often go about our busy lives removed from it. But the outdoors is closer than we realize. With AllTrails, you can discover trails nearby and explore confidently with offline maps and on-trail navigation. Download the free app today and make the most of your summer with AllTrails. I'm Simon Jack. I'm Zing Zing. And on Good Bad Billionaire, we're exploring the life and fortune of music megastar Sir Paul McCartney.
24:54Macca. As one of the primary songwriters in The Beatles and with an extensive solo career, his work generates vast and continuous royalty streams. But were song royalties alone enough to break the billion? And earn him the title of the first British billionaire rock star? Find out in Good Bad Billionaire from the BBC World Service. Listen now, search for Good Bad Billionaire wherever you get your BBC podcasts.
25:22Welcome back. The head of the Anglican Church, the Archbishop of Canterbury, has begun a visit to West Africa, Ghana and Cameroon. The Archbishop is the first woman in the job and that comes with controversy, including objections from some of the more traditional elements of the church in Africa. Add to that that Dame Sarah Mullally is a champion of same-sex unions and you have a visit that's not universally welcomed. I've been speaking to Reginald Frimpong Ansar Ajay, International Communications Director for the Anglican Church in Ghana. It meant so much to the Ghanaian young lady to aspire to any height that they want to go in this life.
26:01And so the women and young ladies in Ghana are really excited and are counting themselves blessed and lucky. Now it's fair to say, isn't it, that not everyone in the church in Ghana shares your joy over the fact that the Archbishop is a woman? I mean, you should expect that in life there's diversity, but majority of the people from Accra, Mampong, Kumase, Hipkos, Second D, Tamale Diocese, there's joy. There's a lot of joy. What do you say to the Global Fellowship of Confessing Anglicans, a group of Orthodox churches that expressed clear displeasure over her appointment simply because she is a woman?
26:41We say to them, let's come together. Whatever God does is good in his sight. So let's come together. This is God's doing. There's nothing we can do about it and we should be excited about it. It's testing differences, not just her gender, but the fact that she champions same-sex couples, which is obviously a source of contention in the global Anglican community. Same-sex marriage is not recognised in Ghana. Homosexuality has been re-declared illegal there. That is an ongoing issue. And we would want to focus on the positive and leave those conversations to those who want to have that conversation.
27:20But so far as we are concerned in Ghana, we are excited she's here and we are receiving her with a lot of joy. OK, but in the past, Dame Sarah Mullally has actively wanted those conversations. She's among the people who wants to talk about homosexuality. I think that we would create the time, we would create the opportunity and we would have that conversation when the time is really right. When will the time be right? Very soon. God's time is always the best. If she chose to raise this issue during her visit to Ghana, championing same-sex couples, how would it go down? I think that it is one of the things that we would want as much as possible not to destroy the joy that she comes with.
28:03There's timing for everything. In Ghana, we have our own way of doing a lot of things. So when the time is right, this conversation will be had by the Anglican Church in Ghana. But I'm not talking about an internal conversation among the church. I'm talking about this conversation we're having now. Is the Anglican Church in Ghana, does it stand against homosexuality, or is it something that it is open to? The Anglican Church is in the middle. God's Christian is God's Christian. We do not condemn, we do not praise. That was Reginald Frimpong Ansar Ajay of the Anglican Church in Ghana.
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28:52You're listening to NewsHour from the BBC. I'm Paul Henley. Emergency crews in France and in Spain have spent the night and this morning battling major wildfires with hundreds of thousands of people affected.
29:09The French authorities say more than 220 ,000 people have been evacuated from the main forest fire raging in the southwest of the country that now threatens the city of Bordeaux, where a full evacuation has not been ruled out. This firefighter is involved in the effort to tackle a huge fire near Bordeaux. It's terrible. The fire is hard to control. The fire is 500 metres away and the flames are leaping 500 metres. With the wind they're forecasting at 80 kilometres an hour, I don't think we'll put it out. It's going to spread. In Spain, meanwhile, more than 90 ,000 people have had to be evacuated or told to stay indoors as wildfires continue to burn west of the capital, Madrid, and winds and high temperatures have made the job of firefighters difficult to say the least.
30:06The French fires are profoundly affecting parts of the country not usually associated with this kind of summer phenomenon. Let's speak live now to Luc Schrego, who is a journalist for France 24. He joins me from Lège-Cap-Ferre, which is at the north end of the peninsula, which was worst affected by the fires. Welcome to the programme, Luc. Tell us about what you've seen, what you've experienced. What's the progress of this fire? Well, the fire itself is now around about 15 kilometres from the city of Bordeaux. And if evacuations have proceeded as the fire has been spreading, the authorities are not currently considering it as an option at this point.
30:48They have said that it isn't progressing west, at least as of a couple of hours ago. But those evacuations are proceeding 220 ,000 in total, an unprecedented number, really, as that moves forward. But everywhere west of Bordeaux at this point feels almost like a ghost town. All you're seeing are police officers blocking the roads from people coming through, trying to keep those roads clear for emergency services vehicles and those fire service vehicles themselves. And lots of people have already been moved to Bordeaux to escape the fires to the west. There must be a lot of nervous people in the city, even if it's only a vague possibility they might have to move out.
31:27The surprising thing I have found over the last couple of days is how calm everything is proceeding. And a lot of people have told me the same thing. There's no real sense of panic. People more annoyed at some of the slowdowns it took when the initial evacuations happened. Some of the traffic slowed to an absolute crawl for hours and hours on Thursday night. But with these rolling evacuations, people have been moving out, moving from one area to the next. For example, where the initial evacuations happened, they'd have moved into the next town over. Then that area would have come under threat as well, and they'll have to move again.
32:00Ultimately, they end up in places like Bordeaux's Parc des Expositions Exhibition Centre. That's got a capacity of 10 ,000 people and authorities have pulled out all the stops. They've got beds, they've got showers, food and water for people, toys for the kids even, and even a medical centre, which was mostly full of the elderly when I was there. They are being tightly surveilled, as it were, because they are at deep risk from not just the fire itself, of course, But the smoke, which is proving extremely problematic for the fact that it contains so many toxic particulates. Where you are in Cab Foray is fairly sparsely populated in the winter.
32:40But at the height of tourist season, the population can go up by about 10 times, can't it? There's a lot of people affected. It's a very popular tourist destination. This entire part of the Atlantic coast, Bordeaux itself and the Gironde, and even further to the south in the Lende region. It's very popular with tourists. There have been a lot of foreigners here at the time. Our hotel was evacuated on Thursday night in the middle of the night, around about half past two, three o 'clock in the morning. A lot of the people there either trying, have already been moved or were trying to leave or were trying to move elsewhere.
33:13Most of the foreigners spoke to more than a few British people as well. Some of them had come for a wedding. Others were on holiday here. And it's quite an exceptional circumstance that they've seen all of this happen. I mean, the authorities put plans into place after we had fires down here in 2022. And we've seen those plans go into effect. The evacuations, for example, bringing in extra resources from around the country. I've seen fire brigades from all across the country, from Brittany to Limoges to Marseille. We've even got Swiss firefighters down here now. So the plan does seem to be working.
33:51It's just the sheer scale of the fire that is happening has absolutely dwarfed everything else. You talked about the poisonous toxins in the smoke from the fires. How close have you been to the blazes and what does it look and feel like when you are relatively close? The smoke is everywhere. In some parts, the visibility might drop to one or 200 metres. And there are these because it's a very highly logged area. They do a lot of logging here, so they grow a lot of this Mediterranean pine because it grows well in the soil. But this particular kind of wood burns terribly, terribly well when conditions go dry.
34:31France is now staring down its fourth major heat wave of the year with records being broken almost every single day as the temperature goes up. And when it burns, it goes so quickly that it creates a firestorm. It becomes self-sustaining and it creates the wind that it needs to keep going. And those are the conditions that the firefighters have really been struggling with. The fact that areas that they have already doused the flames and put the fires out are at constant risk of coming back. So across all of these trees, you can just see it in your mind's eye. What's left of them is just skeletal black forms reaching out of this black and ashy earth.
35:14just as far as the eye can see is the smoke just drifts through them. It's quite a juxtaposition to be what you think you should be in a green forest, but so much of it is now burned up, 42 ,000 hectares as of the last update, which is about half the size of New York City. Thank you very much for that description and for reporting. Luke Schrago from Cap Ferret. Grant Thomas was holidaying in Le Canon de Cap Ferret in France, west of Bordeaux, with his wife and children. We were on one of the beaches on the Atlantic side, and we noticed this huge plume of smoke in the distance. I woke up on Thursday morning, and of course the plume of smoke had grown larger.
35:52It was starting to cover the sun and making the whole zone quite dark. At 3 a.m., I got an alert on my phone in French saying that we'd been requested to evacuate. So we got into the car, left around, I think, 3.45, and bumped into some other families, also dragging their suitcases across the village to the bus where they were going to be picked up and taken to safety. And as we were exiting the sort of villages, it started to get busier and busier and busier towards the kind of one road that leads out of the peninsula. As we turned the corner and headed towards Bordeaux, we then got visibility of the fire burning not too far away from us.
36:33I really feel for all the firemen, all the people in Bordeaux who we spoke to, a couple of locals, who were desperate because of the impact it has both on the economy but also on the houses and the people living in the local area. British tourist Grant Thomas has hundreds of thousands of people in France and Spain try to escape the flames. There are, of course, many others whose job it is to head straight towards them. Aircraft from across Europe are joining the battle to put out wildfires. Eder Navacerada is an aerial firefighting pilot who's flown through 25 fire seasons in Europe and South America.
37:08My colleague Anita Annan spoke to him yesterday and asked him what it felt to fly over a fire which was out of control. For us, we understand that people from the ground, they see the flames, the smoke, those homes that are going to burn, the obstacles. For us, what we try to see is procedures. We try to see the terrain, the wind, the margins that we have, the escape routes. all the mitigated risk. And we try to see that from that professional point of view, because if we see what the people are seeing from the ground, then we get emotional. And that's a problem when it comes to decision making.
37:46I mean, that sense of focus is extraordinary and admirable, but you still have skin and you still feel heat. How low do you go and how hot does it get? It gets hot. You get to feel it in the aircraft. Luckily, in this newer aircraft, we have air conditioning, but it gets hot you can actually feel the difference we're talking that the kind of flames that we see in these mega fires these fires could get up to 1000 degrees so if you get too close you get to feel it but if you get to feel the heat the turbulence it creates unstable air around the fire and yeah there is a number of phenomena that we see sometimes fire wheels and things a fire wheel what's a fire wheel you know a dust devil when he picks up the dust It's the same thing, but with the fire.
38:34Due to the extreme heat, sometimes you see like a little mini tornado with fires. And all of these are pretty, you know, it's a hassle for aviation. I mean, a hassle is just such an understatement. Can you talk us through a run? In this kind of aircraft, the amphibious scoopers, we need to locate a suitable area. It could be a reservoir, it could be a river, and we need a certain distance. Normally, you know, about a mile. The condition of the water must be suitable. About half of a meter is our maximum wave height. And then we touch the water. We don't stop. We are skimming the water. We have a trigger in the cockpit that we push.
39:14And then it brings down some what we call the probes. That scoops the water and it gets to the tank of the aircraft. Within 15 seconds, we get 3 ,000 liters and we go to the fire. And we do that again and again. I've done 60 in a full three-hour cycle. So, I mean, it gets very repetitive. That's good. That brings a lot of water to the ground forces that are fighting the fires. And it is very intense. You never get bored. Some of the wildfires that we've been watching on our screens just seem to be spreading so very quickly. They seem so vast. Is your purpose to put out the fires or cut them off from civilian populations?
39:54What is the mission that you're sent out with? That becomes a priority. When the fire is so large and so violent, then we are mitigating. Our focus becomes human settlements, protecting people and society, and then we take care of the rest. When we are activated to a fire that is starting, that's a different story. That is what we do. And you're not just doing it from the air, because you're working in tandem with men and women who are on the ground and who are much closer to the inferno. Correct. that that's what we always want to highlight we are supporting those uh you know the men and women on the ground that are fighting closer to us to to the flame so it is hard for us also it becomes demanding and challenging but we always put them first those down there they it's really hard it's sometimes it's very steep they are working with their manual tools it is very physical so we are very proud when we see that we can make their job easier you know we can bring the flames lower reduce intensity slow the spread cool a certain sector protect an evacuation road but they will finish the fire have you ever been frightened yes i i guess sometimes we get some scares we try to keep them as low as possible, but sometimes the conditions can change quickly and then you get conditions that you didn't expect or aircraft behaving in a certain way that you didn't expect.
41:31We train for that. We try to keep them as low as possible, but it happens sometimes. Eder Navacerada, who is an aerial firefighting pilot. This is the BBC World Service and NewsHour.
41:52I'm Paul Henley and you are listening to NewsHour from the BBC World Service here in London. Britain's new Prime Minister, Andy Burnham, has said he would publicly oppose President Trump if it meant defending this country's national interest. In his first major interview in the job, he did not commit to spending 3 % of national income on defence by 2030. Andy Burnham was speaking to the BBC's Laura Kunzberg. My strength always is in remaining close to people, close to the public. That will not change because I'm Prime Minister. So you'd be willing to call Donald Trump out if you think that's the right thing?
42:31Of course. I mean, you've got to go into this. All leaders have to do that. You have to defend your own national interest before anything else. That's what you're required to do if you're to do this job properly. I would always put Britain's interests first. Lucy Fisher is Whitehall editor of the Financial Times newspaper. She's also host of a podcast called The Political Fix. I asked her if what she'd heard in that interview had filled in any of the big gaps in what was known about Andy Burnham's foreign policy. Well, a few. And obviously he's trying to project strength in saying that he's willing to stand up to Donald Trump if it's in the UK's interests.
43:17In that sense, you know, there's not a huge lacuna between him and Keir Starmer, who I'm sure would have said the same. But the truth of the matter is that the UK relies so heavily on the US for its security umbrella, that it's not really realistic to do much more at this stage than, you know, very much try to keep the US on board. And then, as expected, you know, on Ukraine so far in his first week in office, he's shown strong continuity on that front. And, of course, it's a good news for the military that he's appointed John Healy as his chancellor and seems to be making strong signals about a significant defence spending uplift.
43:57But, of course, the details of that will have to be worked out further down the line. That will not be an easy spending commitment to fund. And indeed, he didn't say that he would definitely stick to that promise of raising to 3%. No, he didn't. Although, you know, the UK is increasingly looking like an outlier in the bloc in only getting to 2.7 % of GDP by 2030 under the current budget plans. And, you know, the US is becoming a much less reliable and more erratic ally. And I think there needs to be a dose of realism there. Not easy for any Labour prime minister in particular to deal with, you know, grappling with the welfare bill in order to fund defence.
44:39But I think that's what many in his party think he's going to have to do. So some difficult choices ahead on that, for sure. The Burnham stance on the Middle East and on Gaza in particular, what do you think? He shows himself an adept politician. It's clearly been a weak spot for Labour. The party lost a handful of seats and indeed a whole swathe of voters at the last general election to Gaza independent candidates who were sort of, you know, politicians campaigning on that single issue. And I think Burnham, you know, wanted to try and lay down a marker early by saying that he wanted to apologise for the way Labour had initially responded to the Israel war on Gaza.
45:22when Keir Starmer gave that sort of fateful interview in the days after, October 7th, you know, several years ago, and appeared to endorse Israel's right to withdraw power and water from, you know, Palestinians in Gaza. He then rode back and said he had misspoke or he was responding to a different question. But I think that that has been a millstone around Labour's next. So Burnham has wanted to sort of set out his position early on that and, you know, has indicated that he will move to sanction more heavily individuals and organisations associated with, you know, violence in the West Bank. Lucy Fisher there, Whitehall editor of the Financial Times newspaper, finally on the programme, classic American diners are enjoying a moment in the spotlight given the current centenary of Route 66, the Chicago to California highway that was at one time dotted.
46:19With these all-American eating establishments, the diners aren't just beloved by legions of Route 66 buffs, they're also favoured by filmmakers who've used them as locations for some of cinema's most memorable scenes. From New York, Tom Brook reports.
46:38Over the decades, thousands of movies have featured sequences shot in diners. Garcon, coffee. Why is it that filmmakers have an affinity for these all-American dining institutions? Garcon means boy. Movie history is littered with numerous great scenes shot in diners, from the opening moments of Pulp Fiction... They're not expecting to get robbed. ..to John Travolta and Olivia Newton-John appearing in the musical film Grease. Double a polar burger with everything and a cherry soda with chocolate ice cream. Ooh, that sounds good. First of all, visually, they're so striking, they have a kind of Art Deco sensibility.
47:10There's all the stainless steel and the chrome. And at night, they really stand out because of the great neon signage. So you can understand, just in visual terms, why a filmmaker might want to shoot a scene in an American diner.
47:27Diners are also perhaps favoured by some filmmakers because what they represent ties in with the optimism of the American dream. For one thing, the typical diner menu offers literally hundreds of items, reaffirming the American notion that the consumer is sovereign. Also, filmmakers like diners because they can be full of surprises. I've seen fights break out at diners. Author and journalist Eric Piepenberg is a lifelong fan of diners. I've seen people sobbing uncontrollably after a breakup at a diner. I've seen people celebrating at a diner. That sense of the unexpected is very much a draw for filmmakers because anything could happen in this space.
48:10And some of the best scenes in diners are when the unexpected happens, whether it be Meg Ryan in a memorable moment in When Harry Met Sally. Oh, I'll have what she's having. Or Jack Nicholson's dramatic altercation with a waitress in the picture five easy pieces. You see that sign, sir? Yes, you all have to leave. I'm not taking any more of your smartness and sarcasm. You see this sign? But the heyday of the American diner is over. There used to be thousands of classic diners in cities like New York, but they're a dwindling phenomenon. By one estimate, there are just 200 left in the city. So does that mean that in the future we're going to have fewer great movie scenes shot in diners?
48:52Eric Piepenberg again. There will be filmmakers who find a way to go to a diner, even if they have to go out of their way, because it is such a wonderful microcosm of who we are as Americans. So dwindling in numbers, yes, but I still think there's going to be a generation of directors who find their way to a diner to make their movies. The low-budget horror blockbuster Obsession, one of the biggest hits of recent weeks, features an interchange in a restaurant between a couple sitting in a diner-like setting, which has gone viral on social media. No, no, no, no, don't do that! So diners may be declining, but for many filmmakers, it seems these American eating establishments are still very much a desired location through which they can tell their stories.
49:41Tom Brook reporting. That was NewsHour. Thank you very much for listening. Bye-bye.
49:54I'm Simon Jack. I'm Zing Zing. And on Good Bad Billionaire, we're exploring the life and fortune of music megastar Sir Paul McCartney. Macca. As one of the primary songwriters in The Beatles and with an extensive solo career, his work generates vast and continuous royalty streams. But were song royalties alone enough to break the billion? And earn him the title of the first British billionaire rock star? Find out in Good Bad Billionaire from the BBC World Service. Listen now, search for Good Bad Billionaire wherever you get your BBC podcasts.
From the publisher
The German Chancellor, Friedrich Merz, says an attack on one of Europe's largest Pride events in Berlin late on Saturday was an attack on German society. Police are still searching for the driver of a vehicle that rammed into a crowd, killing a woman and injuring sixteen people. They say the twenty- one year old man suspect has links to Islamists.
Also in the programme: a third of a million people in France and Spain have now been ordered to leave their homes to escape wildfires; and Britain's new prime minister, Andy Burnham, has said he would publicly oppose President Trump if it meant defending the country's national interest.
(Picture: Police search the area after a deadly incident in which a vehicle crashed into a crowd near Berlin's annual Christopher Street Day Pride parade on Saturday evening. Credit: REUTERS/Christian Mang)
