Rescue efforts continue in Indonesia

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0:47Hello, I'm Celia Hatton. Welcome to NewsHour on the BBC World Service. Coming up in the programme, we'll be taking you to Australia, which has just announced a major gun buyback campaign in the wake of last December's Bondi Beach attack that killed 15 people. We'll also go live to Brazil, where the president, Lula da Silva, is launching his bid for re-election against a new-ish rival, Flavio Bolsonaro, the son of Lula's longtime rival, Jair Bolsonaro. But first, we're going to focus on what's happening on the ground in Indonesia. A major earthquake near the Indonesian island of Flores hit around 36 hours ago, and still, some people there say they're not getting the help they need to survive.

1:29More than 50 people have died in the quake. Some were killed by the sudden collapse of buildings and others by landslides. Rescue agencies say it's still unclear how many are missing. And that highlights what we've been hearing from the region. Indonesia is part of the Pacific Ring of Fire, a geologically active area that regularly experiences earthquakes and volcanoes. But people on Flores Island say the authorities weren't ready with aid after the earthquake. Budget cutbacks mean that some have told the BBC's local reporters that they're worried about medical and food supplies. Not long ago, I spoke with Jerome Wirwan from BBC's Indonesian service in Jakarta.

2:10The people in Flores Island definitely have been panicking because yesterday's earthquake really evoking some bad memories. because in 1992, there had been a massive earthquake in Flores Island, causing at least 2 ,500 people killed. With that in mind, they ran panically yesterday, and at least 5 ,000 of Flores Island residents are still living in temporary shelters. Your colleagues from BBC Indonesia have been doing some reporting on the scene. They have photographs from this scene of people who were pulled out of a hospital and are still just being treated in what looks to be almost a field.

2:56Can you tell me about the situation for those people who've been interviewed by your colleagues? As a matter of fact, there are at least three main hospitals in Flores Islands that have been sustaining severe damage. One of the hospitals we've been interviewing says that the earthquake left the facility barely functional and the roof and several walls collapsed and putting key departments out of service, including operating theatres, the pharmacy and laboratory. Hospital staff have responded by setting up temporary tents while scrambling to create makeshift treatment rooms for patients requiring urgent care.

3:40One of the evacuees, I mean, away from the hospitals, thousands of survivors remain in temporary shelters. One of the evacuees saying they're increasingly anxious because they're still waiting for food and essential supplies. One of the evacuees voiced frustration saying, we need the government to send help immediately. It won't be the earthquake that kills us, but the lack of food. Indonesia's in the Pacific Ring of Fire. It deals with earthquakes on a regular basis. It also has some of the best rescue teams in the world. How to account then for this gap in help from the authorities? We have a plethora of natural disasters in Indonesia.

4:27One of them is earthquake. Yes, we do have some of the best teams, responding teams that also have given seminars in several countries. However, the very fast region of Indonesia, to illustrate this, I give you the example from the western point to the eastern point of Indonesia, it's basically as if a point taken from Lisbon to St. Petersburg in Russia. So that's how fast Indonesia is. So that's been a challenge for us in years. Meeting those challenges has been really tough, especially in recent years, because the institutions, the search and rescue agency and disaster mitigations have seen their budget have been cut by the government to implement austerity measures in some of the institutions.

5:23The BBC Indonesia Service's Jerome Wiraran speaking to me from Jakarta. Well, staying with this story, the island's hardest hit by the quakes are normally popular with tourists who come for a volcanic crater lake scuba diving and to visit the nearby Komodo National Park, home to Komodo dragons, the world's largest lizards. Lee Risser is the manager of a local travel company, Flores Inda, located on Flores Island, which is just south of the epicentre of the earthquake. I was in my house and then it's like early in the morning. I felt like quite sick, all the houses. We were panicked and my family were panicked.

6:03But I tried to remain calm. And then suddenly a lot of noises around our neighborhood. And all of us running outside and then try to get out of our house because we were afraid if the building will collapse and then it will be dangerous for us. and then really, really scared, especially my wife was crying. And I was really, both my parents and my family in that place because it's really close to the central of the earthquake. I was called them and then the network wasn't connected and then the electricity was off. And all of us really, really scared and we don't know what to do. Lee, you're the manager of a local travel company.

6:52Are you worried about the future of tourism there for the near future? Yes, because Irkwet, we never know when it will happen. And then regarding the tourism, some book was cancelled that come to our company. Okay, some reservations, some bookings were cancelled. Yes, some bookings, yes. Because they were scared of Irkwet because it happened in Flores. We wait for the authorities to say it's safe to go or it's not safe to go. But the next day, later on, around in the afternoon, they say that now there's no warning that tsunami will come. But some tourists, they're still scared and then they booked the flight to Jakarta.

7:41And then some of the other guests booked the flight to Bali. So they were a bit scared. You ask about the future tourism. I think we never know about the nature, but for now, yes, affected the tourism. But in the future, I don't know, it still will be the same. I think the tourists will come again and then hopefully it will be good after this. What would it mean for you if tourists don't come back soon? Oh, yeah. All of us that in Laban Bajo or in Flores, mostly our income is from the tourists. So it will be hard. I think if I remember back then during COVID, a lot of our business are closed and it's really affected economically.

8:34And then the alternative is we doing as a farmer or like I did before, is like a taxi driver, the motorbike. But I'm worried about if no tourists will come. Yeah, that will be hard for us in Flores. That was Lee Risser, manager of the travel company Flores Inda, speaking to me from near the Earthquakes App Center on Flores Island.

9:08Let's go to Australia now. the country's most populous state has just announced plans to collect guns from the public by offering cash in exchange. Starting in November, gun owners in New South Wales will receive up to 700 US dollars per weapon if they hand over eligible handguns, rifles and shotguns. The scheme's coming into place after the state experienced the Bondi Beach terror attack last December. 15 people were shot dead at a Jewish festival on the waterfront in that attack, leading Australia's federal government to pledge that it would impose major gun reforms. Let's speak now with Rod Campbell from the independent policy think tank, the Australia Institute.

9:48He joins me now from Melbourne. Rod, this new Cash for Guns campaign, what kind of response is expected? Oh, thanks for having me. Yeah, Australia has done this before. So Australia has done gun buybacks before after the Port Arthur massacre that was about 30 years ago. So and I guess it's important to note that it's not just a buyback. It's in conjunction with new limits on how many guns you can own. So a lot of people now own more guns than they're allowed to. And so this is buying those back so that people aren't out of pocket complying with the new laws. Interesting. So how many people are expected, will this affect, how many people are expected to kind of come in and hand in guns?

10:39Is there an enthusiasm for this? uh there's absolutely public support for it the australian public consistently uh backs stronger gun laws and moves to reduce the number of guns in australia i mean it's important to realize that we've now got over four million guns in australia that's bounced back we're at record highs now after the big buybacks after port arthur 30 years ago so australia is often looked at as a big success story for gun control. But I think we've been complacent in the last couple of decades. And it's time that Australian government's got serious about gun control again. That's interesting.

11:20So gun ownership, the numbers of guns available within the public is rising, but there's also increasing support for gun control. Can you take me through that bit of those two things? Yeah, absolutely. So the actual numbers of licensees, the number of people who own guns has grown slightly, more or less in line with population growth. But the number of guns has grown quite a lot. So now your average gun license in New South Wales has sort of three and a half, four guns per licensee. And so that's a pretty big increase. And what you're seeing is at the top end of that, there's a handful of people who own legally over 300 guns in Sydney.

12:08There's about 100 people, according to official statistics, who own more than 100 guns. And these are not dealers or collectors. These are individuals who own really serious arsenals. And so what these new laws and combined with this buyback is about is compensating, is outlawing that kind of arsenal acquisition and compensating people to buy it back. This is coming in the wake of the Bondi Beach attack. Are people really saying it directly in connection with that in terms of stopping future hate-related incidents? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, in Australia, we get a lot of news from the United States, and we're consistently appalled at the gun violence that we see over there.

12:57And Australians don't want Australia to go down that path. So, you know, we're heavily influenced in a whole range of ways by the US. And people don't want Australia and our generally pretty good gun control regime to be undermined by the US and to head in that direction. So there's overwhelming public support for these kinds of measures. Rod, thank you. That was Rod Campbell from the Independent Policy Think Tank, the Australia Institute, speaking to us from Melbourne. Stay with us on NewsHour.

13:42Coming up, we hear from the daughter of an elderly man suffering from dementia who's facing deportation from Sweden. Various doctors and specialists of my dad's actually put him writing in the appeal to say that he isn't well enough to make that trip. This could put a massive deterioration on his current mental health and his dementia. And they've just said, basically, it's a 12 hour journey from door to door, from where my dad is to where I live in the UK. That story coming up in a few minutes time. Some other stories we're covering in the newsroom this hour. China's launched the first weekly shipping service that transits the Arctic.

14:22Environmental groups warn it could speed up the melting of polar ice. And the Russian authorities say Moscow has come under one of the biggest Ukrainian attacks in recent memories.

14:43You're listening to NewsHour, coming to you live from London. Now, what initially looks like it could be a good news story. Secondhand booksellers around the world are seeing a boom in sales. Some bookshops in the UK are reporting bulk online orders equaling a week's worth of sales in a single purchase. And many of those sales are going to far off warehouses. Sellers say they're not sure of the book's final destinations or why buyers want so many books of any description. Here's one answer. There are concerns the books might be used to help train artificial intelligence bots. A U.S. court decision last year said it was legal for tech giants like Google to use secondhand books to train bots like Google's Claude.

15:27And those books are destroyed in that process. Well, for more, let's speak live with Professor Emily Hudson. She specializes in intellectual property law at Oxford University. Thanks for joining us. Just to leave the law itself to the side for the moment, just take us through what could be happening here. Why would AI firms want to buy up large numbers of books in the UK and elsewhere? Well, thank you for having me. And I think the reason why AI firms are wanting to buy physical books is to avoid arguments that they're infringing copyright by using what's known as shadow libraries. So that's libraries of pirated content for training of their AI tools.

16:14And how would buying secondhand books, what's the physical process that's happening? They're buying up large numbers of books and ripping them apart to feed into scanners or take us through what's actually thought to be happening? That's correct. So the process is called destructive scanning and the spine of the book will be removed so that the pages can be put through a scanning process. And at the end of that, there'll be a pulping or recycling of all the remnants of the books. So there is no book on the way out of that process. I'm sure book lovers are cringing at the thought. Does any of this break the law in the UK or the United States or elsewhere?

16:56So starting with the UK, it's clear that the resale of secondhand books is permitted under copyright law. So it's unlikely, although not impossible, that there is a problem with the purchasing of the books. The issues arise with the act of scanning and then the training on those electronic copies. The starting point in the UK and indeed elsewhere is that when you digitise print works, that's making a reproduction of them and that that requires permission. And many AI firms have not been obtaining permissions or licences is the technical word when they've been undertaking their scanning and then subsequent training.

17:42So we're in a bit of a legal grey area with that part of it then? Well, it depends where you are. I think that in the United Kingdom, the law actually is quite clear, which is that in most cases, and certainly for the sort of commercial generative AI products produced by Meta and Anthropic and other AI firms, I think it's fairly clear that they require permissions, they require licenses. In the US, though, there has been case law that has said that permissions are not required because of a specific provision in the copyright law in that country. OK, thanks for taking us through that, Professor Emily Hudson, who specialises in intellectual property law at Oxford University.

18:40Now scientists have told the BBC they're increasingly concerned over the rise of social media influencers filming themselves as they swim too close to sharks, touching or even trying to ride them. Shark attacks are incredibly rare, but at least three influencers have been bitten while trying to take footage with sharks in the past year. Experts say the viral videos could encourage others to try to get the same shots. Will Vernon reports. Back in April, just off the coast of Brazil. We went diving with nurse sharks. Tayani Dalazan describes a dive that went badly wrong. Something that I thought was different is because they were on surface.

19:23There was a lot of them. The lawyer and social media personality recalls how, after diving off the boat, she immediately felt something grab her leg.

19:35The pressure and the pain was very strong. So it was very frightening. After several seconds, the two-metre nurse shark that bit Tayane let her go. She managed to reach the boat and was taken to hospital. Tayane posted the footage of the shark bite online, where it's since been viewed tens of millions of times. Meaning I wasn't there for social media. And if somebody wants to get close to a shark just for a photo, I think that's something that shouldn't be done. Let's go swimming with sharks. But many influencers are doing just that and the numbers are growing. I'm seeing these videos every single week now and it is way, way more than it ever used to be.

20:22Shark scientists like Dr Christian Parton say they're increasingly concerned about the rise in social media videos showing people swimming too close to sharks, touching or even riding them. Sharks can actually get really stressed out when you approach them. There's something in their bodies called glucocorticoids and that's a stress hormone. So when animals are stressed out by humans, those glucocorticoid levels go up in their bodies and that can lead to a weakened immune system, potentially aborting offspring that they have, but also they may die from that. Researchers at the International Shark Attack File also told us they've seen a marked increase in the last three years of people being bitten trying to get footage with sharks.

21:02In February last year, a tourist in the Caribbean had both hands bitten off while trying to get a photograph of a bull shark from the shallows, according to local authorities. Two months later, a snorkeler in Israel carrying a camera and a selfie stick was killed by sharks during a feeding frenzy. Some influencers have been filmed touching tiger sharks and even great whites. I think it's incredibly risky. We're talking about shark species here that is a true apex predator. You wouldn't walk into the Serengeti and try and put your hand on the face of a lion. I feel like sometimes some of the criticism is just derailing the conversation.

21:41One of the best-known shark content creators is Ocean Ramsey, a 38-year-old former model who shot to fame after she was pictured swimming with one of the largest great white sharks ever seen. She often posts footage of herself touching sharks. She spoke to us from a boat in Hawaii, where she runs Dive with Ocean shark tours for paying customers. My intent with all of my content has never been to gain views. It's to gain protection for sharks. But many shark scientists have criticised you, haven't they, for getting so close to the sharks and touching them that they say is harmful to the sharks, that it causes them stress.

22:20I'm not actually harming the shark. All of my work and what I share is respecting and observing from a distance. You're best known for touching the great whites and trying to ride their dorsal fins, aren't you? They're not. That's a couple seconds over multiple decades of my career. We spoke to several content creators who all denied being motivated by social media views, clicks or revenue, and insisted they were supporting conservation or attempting to change public perceptions of sharks. How do you get the best price swimming with sharks in the Maldives without... Sharks swimming and diving are soaring in popularity around the world.

22:58Travel site TripAdvisor currently lists more than 140 such experiences in the Maldives alone. Some of the listings advertise the ultimate selfie with sharks. But the warning from experts is clear. Getting that perfect pick could come at a painful price. Will Vernon reporting. And if you want to read more about this story from Will, it's available for you on the BBC News website. Stay with us on NewsHour on the BBC World Service. Lots more to come.

23:45Welcome back to NewsHour on the BBC World Service. Now let's go to Brazil, which is heading towards a general election in October. And so today is the campaign kickoff for the two main contenders for the presidency. The current leftist leader, Luis Inacio Lula da Silva, will face Flavio Bolsonaro, son of Lula's longtime rival, Jair Bolsonaro. They'll be fighting for the attentions of a small pool of independent voters who could be swayed between camps. Let's go live now to our correspondent, Ioni Wells, who's at Lula's re-election rally in Sao Bernardo de Campo, the industrial city outside Sao Paulo.

24:24Ioni, I think we can hear the rally starting behind you. Tell us, why did Lula choose to start his bid for his fourth term there? And what can we expect from his campaign? Well, we have all been given response on entering this football stadium in São Bernardo do Campo, which say in Portuguese where it all began. And that's a reference to the fact that this is the industrial heartland, really, of this region of Brazil. It's where Lula forged his career originally as a metal worker, but then working his way up to be a senior figure and eventually a leader in the union movement. He was one of the people who really made a name for himself as a kind of a key figurehead of the left movement in Brazil in the 70s and 80s for orchestrating massive, massive strikes that took place in stadiums like these, where people were calling for better working conditions, calling for better rights.

25:22And eventually that led to the formation of his Workers' Party, which is the party that to this day he is representing and hoping to be re-elected yet again. Now, the left in Brazil is kind of uniting behind Lula and his workers' party. And that is partly because, and I think this is something we will expect to hear a lot of during the campaign, increasingly his campaign has been defining itself as counter to what many in Brazil see as a hardening right-wing movement led in the last couple of elections by the Bolsonaro family. Take us through the other side, what the right is saying. Flavio Bolsonaro's campaigning in Copacabana.

26:03What issues will he be campaigning on? Well, I think much like his father, who is currently serving a 27-year prison sentence for plotting a coup after losing the last election, he is really focusing his campaign on issues of security, saying that he would pledge a tough on crime approach, but also collaborate more with the United States. Flavio Bolsonaro was in Washington earlier this year where he lobbied the U.S., met with Donald Trump to try and, for example, get Brazilian gangs designated as terrorist organizations by the United States, something which the U.S. administration later went on to do.

26:38And I think from his perspective, he certainly wants to get that kind of U.S. involvement, something which President Lula is pushing back on, saying that that would impact sovereignty and democracy here in Brazil. OK, Ioni, thanks for taking us through that from that very noisy election rally. That was our correspondent, Ioni Wells, just ahead right at the start of what looks to be a hard-fought general election campaign that's just starting in Brazil. Stay with us on NewsHour.

27:14This is NewsHour coming to you live from London. I'm Celia Hatton. In the first days after Brexit, when Britain chose to leave the European Union, there were concerns that many British people would be forced to leave their homes in the EU. To a large extent, that didn't happen. Many people were able to file for residency to stay in their European homes. So that makes the case of George Mason stand out. He's just been given a final order to leave Sweden, where he's lived for more than 20 years, to return to the UK, where he grew up. George is 74 and lives with dementia and receives round-the-clock care.